Follow-up on problems with dieting from NYT

[Joules]

I thought this article from a neuroscientist was interesting with some good references.  Particularly the references on obesity alone not being as much of a health risk factor.  

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/opinion/sunday/why-you-cant-lose-weight-on-a-diet.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region

 

 

(I couldn't find the old thread to add-to even in my personal post history.  Why do they seem to disappear sometimes?)

[Liza Q]

I read that this morning. It is - discouraging and encouraging at the same time. I have lost the same 50 or so pounds and then gained it back three times now, with three different approaches (low-fat, low-carb, Weight Watchers - all with exercise) and each time I have been unable to sustain it.

 

I want to believe that it is not just that I am a weak person. I want to have the courage to try again. Mindfulness sound harder than tracking. But being this weight is harder still - I am tired and low-energy and everything I own is tight and I wear jeans to church because all my nice outfits are 2 sizes too small. I can't lower the stress in my life. My lifestyle is very relaxed but I can't change other people or past experiences.

 

Sorry for the depressing vent. Mother's Day without all my children (I lost a son to cancer many years ago) is never pain-free. I am starting menopause and everything make me weepy.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Liza Q

[Jane Elliot]

From the article: "Obese people who exercise, eat enough vegetables and don’t smoke are no more likely to die young than normal-weight people with the same habits."

 

Dh (MD, Family Practice, B.S. Nutritional Science) has observed for decades that exercise, not diet or weight, is the primary determiner of overall health and well-being in his patients. However, excess weight can make exercise difficult.

 

Interesting article. Thanks, op.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Jane Elliot

[Katy]

That thread has disappeared for me repeatedly too.  Glad to know I'm not the only one.

 

I've been reading Dr Jason Fung (MD)'s blog for a year after stumbling on him in some YouTube videos about reversing Type 2 diabetes.

 

He just came out with a new book Obesity Code: Unlocking the Secrets of Weight Loss, which I finished reading last night.

 

He goes to great lengths to go through all the science around this in the book.  He says that the reason we can't permanently lose weight is because what controls our set point is insulin, and many things about our modern culture increase insulin levels, and high insulin levels lead to increased hunger.  Processed foods, constant snacking, eating 12 times the sugar as normal, not getting enough exercise, just eating too frequently.  Apparently the only way to reduce insulin levels is fasting, because all foods make the body release insulin.  Of course we're afraid of fasting, though there is really no reason to.  It's apparently much safer than dieting, because fasting increases metabolism instead of lowering it.

 

When you just diet but still eat frequent meals, insulin levels remain high even while you are losing weight, so you remain hungry AND your metabolism plummets.  It's a fascinating book.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Katy

[Laurie4b]

Interesting article.  I am glad that 1) the medical field is recognizing that it doesn't know much at all about diet and weight loss and its effect on health and 2) correlation between weight and health are correlations, not causation and there might well be a difference between always having been an optimal weight  healthwise and losing weight to get to an optimal weight 3) that there is more info coming out that should reduce shame for, and shaming of, people who are overweight.

 

I do note that the author has written a book, so this piece will be promoting that book from which the author can expect to make money. Doesn't negate anything in the article, but there may be counterbalancing info out there as well. 

 

Did anyone else read some of the links in the article? 

 

I know that before I lost weight, I tried to weigh (haha) the evidence carefully and I decided to work hard on maintaining muscle mass while losing. I cut out junk food, and counted how many fruits and veges I ate, but nothing else in terms of "dieting". I did eventually leave 12 hours between last meal of day before and first meal of the following day, and occasionally skipped a dinner.

 

From the research available at the time I started, for people over 50, fat loss was correlated with better health outcomes, but weight loss with worse. Researchers thought the difference might be in muscle mass. You can reduce visceral fat without actually losing weight, for instance. Hopefully, I haven't damaged my health by losing weight!  

Edited May 8, 2016 by Laurie4b

[Greta]

I read that this morning. It is - discouraging and encouraging at the same time. I have lost the same 50 or so pounds and then gained it back three times now, with three different approaches (low-fat, low-carb, Weight Watchers - all with exercise) and each time I have been unable to sustain it.

 

I want to believe that it is not just that I am a weak person. I want to have the courage to try again. Mindfulness sound harder than tracking. But being this weight is harder still - I am tired and low-energy and everything I own is tight and I wear jeans to church because all my nice outfits are 2 sizes too small. I can't lower the stress in my life. My lifestyle is very relaxed but I can't change other people or past experiences.

 

Sorry for the depressing vent. Mother's Day without all my children (I lost a son to cancer many years ago) is never pain-free. I am starting menopause and everything make me weepy.

 

Oh, Liza, I am so very sorry for your tragic loss.  Mother's Day must be so bittersweet, or maybe just outright painful, I don't know.  But my heart goes out to you and all of the women on these boards and everywhere who have lost a child.  It's so . . . beyond comprehension.  :grouphug:

 

You are NOT a weak person.  I do not believe for one second that the increase in weight in our culture is due to weakness, or gluttony, or laziness.  I mean, that big a portion of our population just all of a sudden just took on those personality traits?  No way.  There is a physiological, biological explanation, even if we don't know precisely what it is yet.  Look how hard you have tried - those diets are NOT easy, and yet you gave them an honest try.  That doesn't sound like weakness to me.  

 

I wish I had an answer to offer you, but I don't.  I just wanted to express that I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.  Whatever is causing you to feel so tired and run-down is possibly causing the weight gain as well.  Have you seen a doctor?

[Greta]

That thread has disappeared for me repeatedly too.  Glad to know I'm not the only one.

 

I've been reading Dr Jason Fung (MD)'s blog for a year after stumbling on him in some YouTube videos about reversing Type 2 diabetes.

 

He just came out with a new book Obesity Code: Unlocking the Secrets of Weight Loss, which I finished reading last night.

 

He goes to great lengths to go through all the science around this in the book.  He says that the reason we can't permanently lose weight is because what controls our set point is insulin, and many things about our modern culture increase insulin levels, and high insulin levels lead to increased hunger.  Processed foods, constant snacking, eating 12 times the sugar as normal, not getting enough exercise, just eating too frequently.  Apparently the only way to reduce insulin levels is fasting, because all foods make the body release insulin.  Of course we're afraid of fasting, though there is really no reason to.  It's apparently much safer than dieting, because fasting increases metabolism instead of lowering it.

 

When you just diet but still eat frequent meals, insulin levels remain high even while you are losing weight, so you remain hungry AND your metabolism plummets.  It's a fascinating book.

 

 

That book sounds really interesting, Katy.  Thanks for mentioning it.

 

 

ETA:  I'm curious, did he mention that MSG is (or might be) one of the things that causes increased insulin release?  I remember reading that in mice, or maybe it was rats, MSG added to their food causes three times the insulin release, but as of the time that book was written, it wasn't known if it has the same effect on humans.  

Edited May 8, 2016 by Greta

[Katy]

That book sounds really interesting, Katy.  Thanks for mentioning it.

 

 

ETA:  I'm curious, did he mention that MSG is (or might be) one of the things that causes increased insulin release?  I remember reading that in mice, or maybe it was rats, MSG added to their food causes three times the insulin release, but as of the time that book was written, it wasn't known if it has the same effect on humans.  

 

He mentioned many chemicals that are obesenogens (probably misspelled)  in mice, but isn't sure how they translate to humans, both because human metabolisms are different, and because the quantities of chemicals tested in mice are proportionally hundreds or thousands of times higher dosages than we would ever be exposed to.  Also, we aren't exposed to single toxins in isolation, there may be synergistic effects that worsen the effects of the multiple chemicals we are exposed to.  He does go on at length to say we should avoid artificial sweeteners because they raise insulin, but he barely mentioned the mice studies.  Instead he talked about actual human studies.

 

ETA: the point was, by avoiding processed food you're improving something either way.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Katy

[Soror]

Thanks for the link I enjoyed it. A lot of that I've been saying for years. I've watched overweight relatives diet themselves more and more obese. As I said before I think there is so much we don't understand but forgetting about diets and focusing on good food and being active. 

[Greta]

He mentioned many chemicals that are obesenogens (probably misspelled)  in mice, but isn't sure how they translate to humans, both because human metabolisms are different, and because the quantities of chemicals tested in mice are proportionally hundreds or thousands of times higher dosages than we would ever be exposed to.  Also, we aren't exposed to single toxins in isolation, there may be synergistic effects that worsen the effects of the multiple chemicals we are exposed to.  He does go on at length to say we should avoid artificial sweeteners because they raise insulin, but he barely mentioned the mice studies.  Instead he talked about actual human studies.

 

ETA: the point was, by avoiding processed food you're improving something either way.

 

 

Thanks, Katie!  I'm going to order his book.  I'm really interested to learn more about artificial sweeteners causing insulin release.  Is it the mere taste sensation of something sweet that causes the insulin release?  Because if so, it means we should be careful even with things like stevia, which most people wouldn't classify as "artificial" (though I think the term isn't terribly useful, but that's another story).  I love iced tea, and I've always had it with saccharin, because that's the way my mom drank it, and that's the way that it tastes like iced tea to me.  I've been trying to switch to stevia, but I do not like the taste of stevia.  Maybe I'd be better off getting used to drinking it unsweetened.

[Liza Q]

Hey Greta - thanks for the kind words. I am surprised that I posted as I generally try not to bring others down when I am feeling down....but I felt better afterwards. So thanks for listening!

 

I find that tired and run down and weight gain are circular. My weight makes it harder to do things so I do less and I gain more, kwim? I am seeing a new primary care physician this week, so maybe he will really listen and help me come up with a reasonable plan. My blood sugar and cholesterol are fine, but my bp is high, I have arthritis in my knees, hands and feet, and, like I mentioned, menopause is making me a little overly emotional!

[Greta]

Hey Greta - thanks for the kind words. I am surprised that I posted as I generally try not to bring others down when I am feeling down....but I felt better afterwards. So thanks for listening!

 

I find that tired and run down and weight gain are circular. My weight makes it harder to do things so I do less and I gain more, kwim? I am seeing a new primary care physician this week, so maybe he will really listen and help me come up with a reasonable plan. My blood sugar and cholesterol are fine, but my bp is high, I have arthritis in my knees, hands and feet, and, like I mentioned, menopause is making me a little overly emotional!

 

 

I'm so glad you're feeling better.  And yes, that does make perfect sense how it would be kind of a vicious cycle with the weight gain and the fatigue feeding each other.  I really hope that your new PCP will listen to you thoughtfully, and be able to provide you with some real help.  Do keep us posted!

[Ann.without.an.e]

My body naturally wants to be quite overweight.  It takes alot of exercise and constant awareness of everything I eat to be on the upper end of a normal BMI. I can't slack, I can't relax about it.  If I let go even just a little, my body packs it on.  I eat very healthy. It sucks.  I hate it. 

Interesting article.  I am glad that 1) the medical field is recognizing that it doesn't know much at all about diet and weight loss and its effect on health 

 

 

 

Ain't that the truth!

 

And for a real head-scratcher, how about this fact -- there is some scientific research to show a correlation between lower basal metabolic rates and increased longevity.

[Meriwether]

This article was depressing.

[wintermom]

My body naturally wants to be quite overweight.  It takes alot of exercise and constant awareness of everything I eat to be on the upper end of a normal BMI. I can't slack, I can't relax about it.  If I let go even just a little, my body packs it on.  I eat very healthy. It sucks.  I hate it. 

 

It might seem like a curse, but it's actually probably a blessing. Eating healthy and exercising are very good for you, for pretty much everyone, in the long run. Also, there are loads of people who have to deal with daily health issues and it actually sucks way worse, like diabetes, chronic pain, etc. They can't slack off, either, or the consequences are much more alarming than weighing more.

Edited May 9, 2016 by wintermom