College course minimum standards

[MarkT]

This post inspired my post

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/600912-community-college/?do=findComment&comment=6935682

 

It seems that there should be nationally agreed upon minimum standards for many Freshman and Sophomore level courses no matter where they are taught including AP.

What do the accreditation bodies do for this?

 

For example there should be minimum standard for Calculus 1 that would be transferable to 75% of the colleges in this country. Obviously,  MIT and Cal Tech will always have more stringent requirements for their Calculus 1.

 

A college could still offer Calculus for Business students but that would be less transferable.

 

Maybe this group could define them for Math:

http://www.amatyc.org/

 

 

Illinois for example has this:

http://www.imacc.org/

[SparklyUnicorn]

I know the local CC has standards.  They even have a minimal grade that is transferable to a state school within NY.  I don't know all of the details, but, for example, I know they must have a final exam that is cumulative.  I know that one because the instructor mentioned it.  He said they have very specific guidelines for various things so they can keep their accreditation.  He claims they even expect a certain configuration in terms of grades.  For example, they don't want to see a high number of As, but more of a bell curve configuration.  Sounds weird to me, but whatever.  In terms of material they are expected to require, I don't know, but for one thing I get the impression individual instructors do not choose the books they use.  If it's a college algebra class, all of the instructors use the exact same book.  That sort of thing. 

 

I do wish that if something is titled "Algebra 1" that it means something specific.  That the topics covered would be the same everywhere.  Otherwise, I have no clue what it means or what it covers. 

[JanetC]

Professors are the biggest reason that we can't have national standards -- they don't want to be told what to teach in any way shape or form. They scream about any changes to their academic freedom.

 

However, as more and more intro courses are being taught by adjuncts, who have little autonomy, things could become more standardized. And, as Sparkly points out, CC courses generally have standards outlined as part of building their transfer agreement programs.

 

Four-year schools are not as oriented around "these credits need to transfer elsewhere" because they're in the business of being the student's school for all four years. But, over a quarter of students transfer or step out from their studies.

 

That being said, looking at the hash the educational system has made with trying to make state and national standards for K-12, if we did get standards, I doubt they'd be very good.

[Caroline]

My understanding from attending two ABET accredited engineering schools, and going through the accreditation renewal process at each is that ABET accredits a program overall, not by individual course. So, for example, the calculus sequence at Georgia Tech is very different from the calculus sequence af Virginia Tech. However, by the end of the math sequence for materials science students at both, the same material is covered. And this is even different from the calculus sequence at Kennesaw State, where a lot of students go and then transfer to GT. It takes more calculus credits at KSU to meet the same standards as the calculus sequence at GT.

 

Now, an intro to materials science for electrical engineers course is going to be very similar at both VPI and GT because the goals of that single course would be the same. It won't be a sequence of courses.

 

When I started grad school at GT (back in the dark ages) many of the text books used at both VPI and GT were the same, but the courses were structured differently. At GT, courses were segregated by type of material--ceramics, metals, and polymers. At VPI, they were segregated by properties--mechanical, electrical, etc. In the end, you learned the same material. I could pass my PhD comps at GT even though my courses at VPI were structured completely differently.

 

All of that to say, I don't think national standards for colleges are a good idea. I believe that as a materials scientist, there is a body of information I need to know, but I don't think that all universities need to be in lock step in order to produce good materials scientists.

[MarkT]

All of that to say, I don't think national standards for colleges are a good idea. I believe that as a materials scientist, there is a body of information I need to know, but I don't think that all universities need to be in lock step in order to produce good materials scientists.

I only meant voluntary minimum standards for certain popular Freshman and Sophomore level courses such as Calculus 1. This would be a good fit for most college and universities, especially community colleges.  I doubt that "Calculus 1"* at Georgia Tech has to be that much different from KSU.

 

The standard would be maintained by a respected third party organization not a government organization.

 

* Calculus 1 for STEM degrees.

Edited April 9, 2016 by MarkT

[Caroline]

I only meant voluntary minimum standards for certain popular Freshman and Sophomore level courses such as Calculus 1. This would be a good fit for most college and universities, especially community colleges. I doubt that "Calculus 1"* at Georgia Tech has to be that much different from KSU.

 

The standard would be maintained by a respected third party organization not a government organization.

 

* Calculus 1 for STEM degrees.

I don't think you are correct about calculus 1 at different universities.

[MerryAtHope]

 

A college could still offer Calculus for Business students but that would be less transferable.

 

 

Yes, offer both and each has a code showing what level/standard it meets. 

[TechWife]

 

It seems that there should be nationally agreed upon minimum standards for many Freshman and Sophomore level courses no matter where they are taught including AP.

 

 

 

I disagree. I have no desire for my son, or any other student, to receive a cookie cutter education at the university level. It's bad enough that it happens with public schools.  Adults (and college students are adults) should have a choice in how they are educated. My son doesn't need an educrat deciding the specific content of any courses he takes. That content is best decided by the professor, who is accountable to his university for preserving the efficacy of the degree program. 

 

Universities are political enough as it is - I can't imagine how much worse the political monster would be if there were to be some type of standards requirements. Common core implementation has been such a hit - imagine it on a college level. 

 

Students should select their universities carefully and pay attention to what is important to them. If transferability of credits is important to a student, then they need to look into that when they select their university. One of the consequences of transferring and/or changing one's major is that sometimes courses need to be repeated or additional courses in a particular area must be taken. It's not a tragedy. Choices have consequences.  

 

Various accrediting bodies are free to determine what needs to be covered to earn accreditation and universities are free to decide if they want to pursue a particular credential for their various programs. States are free to require licensing exams for any profession, and many professions do require a minimum score on a licensing or accreditation exam. Employers are free to determine whether or not  they will hire a graduate of a any particular educational program. Graduate programs are free to determine the minimum educational requirements for entry into their programs as well. 

 

Standardization at the university level, no way! I can just see it now - university courses taught to the test. If my son's uni has to teach a standard set of facts for American History, will they then have the financial, human and physical resources remaining to continue offering courses on the Appalachian region? It's one thing to say that universities could do both, but it's another thing to fund that ability. Just ask the public schools how that is working out with funding for the arts, an area which is not being tested, as compared to funding for math and English, which are areas that are being tested. 

 

ETA: For me, standardized exams and a universal set of standards would have to go hand in hand if individual courses were content specific. Otherwise, how could anyone determine whether or not the content was taught as mandated? It's entirely different when an accrediting body looks at the entirety of a program and determines that their standards are being met. 

Edited April 10, 2016 by TechWife

[TechWife]

 

 

For example there should be minimum standard for Calculus 1 that would be transferable to 75% of the colleges in this country. Obviously,  MIT and Cal Tech will always have more stringent requirements for their Calculus 1.

 

 

 

 

Usually when there are minimum standards, I believe the consensus is that high standards end up getting "dumbed down." 

[TechWife]

All of that to say, I don't think national standards for colleges are a good idea. I believe that as a materials scientist, there is a body of information I need to know, but I don't think that all universities need to be in lock step in order to produce good materials scientists.

 

Well said. Thank you. 

[TechWife]

I only meant voluntary minimum standards for certain popular Freshman and Sophomore level courses such as Calculus 1. This would be a good fit for most college and universities, especially community colleges.  I doubt that "Calculus 1"* at Georgia Tech has to be that much different from KSU.

 

The standard would be maintained by a respected third party organization not a government organization.

 

* Calculus 1 for STEM degrees.

 

Standards are set by the accrediting programs of various specialty areas. Universities choose whether or not to participate in the accreditation process, therefore they are already choosing whether or not to voluntarily submit themselves to set of standards. 

[TechWife]

 

 

A college could still offer Calculus for Business students but that would be less transferable.

 

 

 

 

Yes, offer both and each has a code showing what level/standard it meets. 

 

Will there be funding available for all of these different courses? Some universities already have both a business calculus (it was called brief calculus when I took it) and a traditional calculus course. If there's a standard for one and not the other, which one do you think will receive the funding? What if a university has a very popular business college with a less popular college of mathematics. Which program do you think the university will cut first if funding becomes an issue? It won't be the one that make them the most money. That means that a mathematics education may become less accessible to a particular population of students. The consequences of a standardized program could have a far reaching impact that needs to be considered above and beyond the issue of transferability. 

[Bootsie]

 

All of that to say, I don't think national standards for colleges are a good idea. I believe that as a materials scientist, there is a body of information I need to know, but I don't think that all universities need to be in lock step in order to produce good materials scientists.

A college degree from a particular university is more than a collection of generic courses.  Different universities approach the teaching and sequencing of the material differently.  Different universities emphasize different material.  Each university is a unique community of scholars. 

[Laura Corin]

Do US universities have external examiners who review courses/results?  The way it works in the UK is that, for example, Sheffield University finishes its modules for the semester and the marks are moderated internally.  Then a lecturer/professor from, say, Bath Spa University is employed to look at a selection of the work in order to see if it meets common university standards.  Marks can be adjusted at that stage if the external believes that they have been too lenient/harsh.  Only after the external has approved the marks can they be officially published and made available for transcripts.

 

It's not a perfect system, as universities choose their own external examiners for each course, but it's something.

 

You could make a comparison with how PhDs are examined, as I believe this is the same in the US: after the thesis is completed,  it is read by one examiner who is internal to that university and one who is from another university.  They come to their own conclusions separately, then meet the student for the viva, and only then do they produce a joint report.  Again, not a perfect system, but something.

[TechWife]

Do US universities have external examiners who review courses/results? The way it works in the UK is that, for example, Sheffield University finishes its modules for the semester and the marks are moderated internally. Then a lecturer/professor from, say, Bath Spa University is employed to look at a selection of the work in order to see if it meets common university standards. Marks can be adjusted at that stage if the external believes that they have been too lenient/harsh. Only after the external has approved the marks can they be officially published and made available for transcripts.

 

It's not a perfect system, as universities choose their own external examiners for each course, but it's something.

 

You could make a comparison with how PhDs are examined, as I believe this is the same in the US: after the thesis is completed, it is read by one examiner who is internal to that university and one who is from another university. They come to their own conclusions separately, then meet the student for the viva, and only then do they produce a joint report. Again, not a perfect system, but something.

 

Not that I'm aware of. There aren't common university standards here. There are accrediting organization and they have people, external to the university, who review programs of study.

Edited April 10, 2016 by TechWife

[MarkT]

Do US universities have external examiners who review courses/results?  The way it works in the UK is that, for example, Sheffield University finishes its modules for the semester and the marks are moderated internally.  Then a lecturer/professor from, say, Bath Spa University is employed to look at a selection of the work in order to see if it meets common university standards.  Marks can be adjusted at that stage if the external believes that they have been too lenient/harsh.  Only after the external has approved the marks can they be officially published and made available for transcripts.

 

That's very interesting but alas the time and money to do that here in the states is just not there.

[Laura Corin]

That's very interesting but alas the time and money to do that here in the states is just not there.

 

For reference, on the courses with which I'm familiar, the externals look at 5 essays per module per cohort and attend two examination boards per year.  There is prestige attached to being an external examiner, but they aren't extremely well paid: between £100 and £500.  It adds a couple of weeks to the reporting deadlines.

[TechWife]

That's very interesting but alas the time and money to do that here in the states is just not there.

 

I haven't heard of one single university requesting such a thing, either. Universities are unique and independent. 

[JennyD]

I haven't heard of one single university requesting such a thing, either. Universities are unique and independent. 

 

 

I actually graduated from a small liberal arts college that does do external examinations based on the UK model.  However, to your point, it is a unique program that is very specific to that particular college.  

[Laura Corin]

I haven't heard of one single university requesting such a thing, either. Universities are unique and independent. 

 

It was originally a piece of marketing.  History here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_examiner

 

I was recommended for a First Class Honours degree, which automatically triggered a viva voce with an external examiner in attendance.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Laura Corin

[kiana]

We supposedly have statewide minimum standards, and yet I still have students who transfer in from a couple of specific colleges who have a passing grade recorded in college algebra and yet cannot add fractions, let alone solve quadratic equations. I don't know what they're doing over there, but legally we can't refuse to accept their courses because we have statewide minimum standards.

 

I don't think it's going to do anything other than add a level of paperwork to universities and stifle the ones who really are doing something out of the box in a good way.

[G5052]

I can't imagine the infrastructure this would require, much less the outcry among faculty members. There is no national body that controls colleges in the way that the Department of Education controls public schools in the U.S. The federal financial aid program has some influence, but not at that level. Accreditation is handled by independent, regional groups.

 

As a faculty member, we already have an over-abundance of administrators because of the legal and regulatory requirements. This would add more.

[G5052]

That's very interesting but alas the time and money to do that here in the states is just not there.

 

In my state they do periodically review the outcome of certain classes both within a college and across several colleges. The goal of course is some consistency in the basics, but just freshman-level courses from what I've seen.

[MarkT]

After seeing the discussion on the Community College thread, I think the only plausible forward path is for the state board of regents to encourage involvement between their community colleges and the state U(s).

 

We have this already in AZ. Not perfect but I have seen several success stories.

 

End of thread!

Edited April 12, 2016 by MarkT

[MarkT]

We supposedly have statewide minimum standards, and yet I still have students who transfer in from a couple of specific colleges who have a passing grade recorded in college algebra and yet cannot add fractions, let alone solve quadratic equations. I don't know what they're doing over there, but legally we can't refuse to accept their courses because we have statewide minimum standards.

 

In my state for math, the State U still gives a placement test to validate the next course placement for all Freshman and Transfers.  Not sure if this impacts the course transfer if you bomb the placement test.  Since many BA students take College Algebra as their only math this would not pertain to them (and I am not particularly bothered).

 

Maybe you should petition for this as well.