POLL: Do you celebrate Halloween?

[KarenNC]

One more thing, I don't have a problem with people doing their "thing" for Halloween, however I do have one problem. People who try to push or trick us into celebrating it with them.

 

Last year the kids were in 4-H. The leader called me in October, knowing that I was not fond of Halloween. She told me they wouldn't be doing anything Halloweeny, to which I assured her it wouldn't matter, we would just skip out on that meeting. She assured me that they wouldn't, but that one game was a dress up game in which the kids had to pick out a costume for the other kids. It had a time limit and was just going to be fun. I didn't have a problem with that. However, when the meeting started, she went on and on, with a speech to the kids on how Halloween is not bad, or evil, and can be celebrated without anything evil.

 

I never thought she, or anyone else, was evil for participating, but the speech was unneccessary, and embarrassing for my girls. When it was time to play the game, we saw that there was devil horns in the pile. One of the girls came to me and we (the girls and I) went to the kitchen to prepare the refreshments.

 

I'm not sure her intentions were bad, she just thought she could change our minds, or something. Once in the past, she suggested, in private to me, that we could each bring a vegetable, and give thanks to the sun, soil etc. for it. To which I told her, we could not do that. The issue was dropped and never presented again. I assumed the same thing would happen with Halloween. We just decided we would not go this October. We decided not to return this year anyway, totally unrelated to the Halloween issue.

 

 

We had a similar situation with 4H when my daughter was a Cloverbud (age 5, IIRC). The leader chose to set up Christmas caroling to a nursing home as a community service project (we had also gone to this nursing home trick or treating and showing off the costumes, btw, which the residents loved--stipulated no scary costumes). Now the leader knew that we were non-Christian (and, importantly, specifically something else :)), and knew that we had picked 4H because it was explicitly secular (state funded). I told her it wasn't my first choice, but we would be willing to participate in some caroling with general songs (rather than devotional songs) and wanted to participate in the community service aspect.

 

Unfortunately, by the time I found out that she had selected almost exclusively very confessional Christmas songs (along the line of "Jesus is my Savior" vs. "Jingle Bells"), outside musical accompaniment had been arranged, etc, so we backed out. I wasn't comfortable with my child at that age participating.

 

The leader was rather baffled that anyone would object to Christmas songs because they were beautiful. I agreed that they were beautiful, but that we still had a problem with performing them as part of a secular group of children that age. She understood more when I put it to her that if, as a devout Christian, she would be comfortable with her young child singing equally devotional songs from Islam, Hinduism, etc, then it was more likely that I would be okay with my child singing them about Jesus. It's hard for folks to understand when someone falls outside the mainstream.

[KarenNC]

I grew up not doing Halloween (complete with Mom who handed out anti-Halloween tracts to trick-or-treaters).

 

Yes, we've run into folks who do this as well and I simply don't understand (or appreciate) the mindset. If they don't want to participate in Halloween, fine and dandy. If they want to engage me as an adult in a discussion about why one might or might not choose to participate in Halloween, fine and dandy.

 

Targeting young children for this sort of proselytizing----*not* fine and dandy. I've seen a *lot* of those kinds of tracts over the years (the Jack Chick ones pop up around here in library books, public restrooms, on tables at the McDonalds, etc on a semi-regular basis) and they don't belong near children IMO, much less given directly to them.

[Jenn in Mo]

It's all a matter of perspective, isn't it? ;) I have my own soap box, on the "other side" of the Halloween issue.

 

Yes! And that's one of the things I love about this board....and about you, Joanne!

 

I get upset at the "stranger" issue (I don't believe in teaching kids not to talk to strangers, for one thing) and I get upset at the assertion of spiritual issues related to celebrating, acknowledging, or participating in Halloween.

I completely agree. I think this can be so confusing for kids. Strangers are not evil. I'm trying to teach common-sense, not fear.

 

The worst, though, are the predictable (and false) reports that come to my email about the risks to my kids and family on that evil, awful, demon possessed day.

 

I'll admit, there was a time when I avoided Halloween because of the email reports and sermons. And then a friend gave me a video discussing the pagan origins of Christmas. Christmas is a very special and holy celebration for my family. I have a tree. I don't worship Thor (or whoever.) This is when I snapped out of it and recognized the fact that all is permissible though not all is edifying. We were most certainly bringing glory to God in our celebrations of Christmas. I will not put judgment on someone and say they cannot glorify God during Halloween. Until I'm ready to take down my wreath, I don't have a lot of ground to stand and point fingers on pagan beginning arguments. It's what we do with it now that matters.

 

My reasoning now is the ghoulishness of the whole thing. I posted last year about the house around the corner that scares even me. I am not joking about my big chicken-children. They slept with me through November. The technology for decorations has improved so much over the last few years. It is down-right spooky! And so are a lot of the costumes. It's not for me and I know it's not for my kids.

 

Me? I think kids like dress up and candy and love it when everyone "else" does it, too. I think it's THAT pure and simple. And I, for one, still believe that it's ok to go to doors for people who let us collecting candy. (Most of which we end up sorting, and tossing or giving away).

 

This sounds like fun! The "everyone else" in my kids' lives are also out of town at this friends' house partying, so my bunch looks forward to this day like they look forward to Christmas. This tradition works for us.

[orangeblossom]

We have a family games night and eat junk food....no trick or treating, or even answering the door.

[wide eyes & laughter]

first we thought it would be a great community thing - get to meet neighbors & kids around us. But that was a flop - I'd see vans pulling up picking up their kids and dropping them off. I "met" kids I never saw around our neighborhood, etc.

 

I never liked handing out candy - just a big waste of time, imo. Not to mention a waste of money buying more candy than I would have bought for my own kids. Also, rushing around making or buying costume gear.

 

So, we resorted to offering the kids $10 each - and figured we've saved money still. No buying decorations, costumes, candy. The kids have taken the money and run which was very predictable. Plus it allowed us to see their view of Halloween. We no longer felt guilty for "cheating" them of these pleasures (my parent's voices in my head!).

 

Dc are 9, 7, 5, btw.

[chaik76]

Yes, we've run into folks who do this as well and I simply don't understand (or appreciate) the mindset. If they don't want to participate in Halloween, fine and dandy. If they want to engage me as an adult in a discussion about why one might or might not choose to participate in Halloween, fine and dandy.

 

Targeting young children for this sort of proselytizing----*not* fine and dandy. I've seen a *lot* of those kinds of tracts over the years (the Jack Chick ones pop up around here in library books, public restrooms, on tables at the McDonalds, etc on a semi-regular basis) and they don't belong near children IMO, much less given directly to them.

Oh...I completely agree! My mom does now too...she got caught up in a church...I know she wishes she had done things differently. Those Jack Chick pamphlets are scary!

[*********]

No. We do not celebrate Halloween. At all.

 

Well, I just read the posts before me, and I thought I'd add...

 

My husband and I pass out tracts in our everyday lives. Grocery store clerk, bank teller, etc. I don't usually use Chick tracts, they're not really my favorite. However, others I know like to pass them out.

 

I don't see what would be the problem with passing out tracts for Halloween?

 

So, say I put a tract in your kid's bag, and you didn't like it. You'd probably just throw it away. Now, say I had to drive by your house down my street, all decorated with ghosts, witches, and the like. I wouldn't like that, either.

 

Maybe both situations are good opportunities for conversation with our kids?

 

Just my two cents.

Edited October 2, 2008 by bethanyniez
adding comments

[KarenNC]

I don't see what would be the problem with passing out tracts for Halloween?

 

The problem is passing them out directly to children, which is what is happening when you put them in a child's bag. Most of the children I see trick or treating are under the age of 12. IMO, children are *off limits* when it comes to proselytization, by *any* religion, unless their parents are specifically and knowingly choosing to participate. An adult has the life experience and judgment to be able to see these sorts of things in perspective and make a mature judgment. A child does not, particularly when given to them by adults, who they see as authority figures and have been taught to listen to and respect. I know that my daughter would have been able to read them at age 5.

 

So, say I put a tract in your kid's bag, and you didn't like it.

 

That's the problem in a nutshell. The tract was put it in my child's bag (given directly to my child), not put in my hand as the adult. It is targeting children without their parents' permission.

 

I have to wonder why one would say one does not participate in Halloween *at all*, yet is willing to turn on their porch lights indicating that they *are* participating (specifically to entice children to come to one's door solely for the purposes of proselytizing them), answer the door when a child comes up, and then stick a tract in the child's bag with specific instructions on how to convert to one's religion under the guise of giving them a comic book (often including candy).

 

Is this behavior the sort that would be welcomed by members of your church if done by someone of a different religion? If your children came to an event that was apparently innocuous and secular, then came home showing you all the cool neat comic books that the neighbors had given them with specific instructions on making sacrifices to Hermes? How to say a prayer that makes one Muslim? The benefits of worshiping Shiva as the true God? This doesn't even get into the realm of the Chick tracts.

 

Now, say I had to drive by your house down my street, all decorated with ghosts, witches, and the like. I wouldn't like that, either.

 

I'm not overfond of driving by billboards, etc, that proselytize, either (not that I actually believe that a house decorated for a largely secular holiday is "proselytizing"). Yes, that is an opportunity for a discussion about different people and their different views.

 

The behavior in question is, unfortunately, an opportunity for a discussion about why people would not follow the Golden Rule. My child would be coming to your door *only* because you had turned on your light indicating that you were participating in trick or treating. Otherwise we would respect your wishes and simply pass your house by.

 

That house is not actively seeking to convert your child without your knowledge. Passing out these tracts, most of which do not have an indication on the cover about their true subject matter, is.

 

Here are some tract examples that show what I mean:

http://www.crossway.org/product/663575725558

http://www.crossway.org/product/663575732242

http://www.crossway.org/product/663575730446

http://www.crossway.org/product/663575731054

http://www.crossway.org/product/663575725107

 

These are, IMO, specifically designed to be deceptive. A parent glancing at the cover has no indication that inside is an attempt to proselytize his or her child.

 

Admittedly these are not as bad as the Chick tracts recommended for use with young children (http://www.chick.com/seasonal/halloween/tractsuggestions.asp)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1032/1032_01.asp?Store=True

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0063/0063_01.asp?Store=True

 

Here are samples of suggested tract behavior on Halloween:

http://www.chick.com/seasonal/halloween/tractuses.asp

"A school bus driver discovered a great way to use Halloween to spread the gospel. She passed out bags containing candy and Chick tracts to the students on her bus."

"On Halloween a team from my church hit the streets armed with Chick tracts and their Bibles. As we walked the streets we hollered to the kids "Free comic books," and they swarmed around us."

"When children arrive, place the tray in front of them and let them pick any two tracts. (Be sure to give them candy too.) "

 

WWJD? I have my suspicions.

Edited October 2, 2008 by KarenNC

[gardenschooler]

I'm having board dejavu. :lol:

 

We celebrate Halloween, and we do it up big. We carve one pumpkin each, decorate, make treats, sometimes have a party or go to one, and generally trick or treat and hang around with friends and have a good time. Lots of food, games, all that good stuff. Scary movies afterwards. My older girls also like things like the haunted corn maze.

 

We have several neighbors who really go all out. One has their driveway decked out every year like Oz, complete with characters and a yellow brick road. Too cool.

 

Nothing's more fun than Halloween. And it comes with chocolate!

[sagira]

When dh was a teen, he hosted a haunted house for the community, complete with scary monsters, props.. the works :D

 

Where I grew up there was no Halloween, but as soon as I came to live here and met future dh, I started dressing up every year in October. It's fun! Now we also carve a pumpkin with ds and go trick or treating.

 

This year ds is Superman. We don't do scary until the kids are older.

 

Aaahh.. I have fond memories when in college dh was The Phantom of the Opera and I was Christine :)

[*********]

I have to wonder why one would say one does not participate in Halloween *at all*, yet is willing to turn on their porch lights indicating that they *are* participating (specifically to entice children to come to one's door solely for the purposes of proselytizing them), answer the door when a child comes up, and then stick a tract in the child's bag with specific instructions on how to convert to one's religion under the guise of giving them a comic book (often including candy). .

 

I'm sorry, I did not intend to be confusing. I don't participate in Halloween at all. I've never passed out tracts for Halloween. The situation I described was purely hypothetical. I have no idea if you 'decorate your house in ghosts and witches', either. :001_smile:

 

Is this behavior the sort that would be welcomed by members of your church if done by someone of a different religion? If your children came to an event that was apparently innocuous and secular, then came home showing you all the cool neat comic books that the neighbors had given them with specific instructions on making sacrifices to Hermes? How to say a prayer that makes one Muslim? The benefits of worshiping Shiva as the true God? This doesn't even get into the realm of the Chick tracts.

 

(We don't attend a 'church' with 'members' in the traditional, American sense.) Either way, I believe this is where we disagree. I do not see Halloween as an 'apparently innocuous and secular' event.

 

I'm very sorry we feel so strongly in opposite directions. Blessings to you and your family.

 

Bethany

Edited October 2, 2008 by bethanyniez
spelling

[ClassicMom]

We use to go out to eat and then let the kids pick out something in the cany isle at Target. But there are now too many people dressed-up if we go out.

 

We turn the lights-off (I know, party-poopers), rent some movies and order Pizza. My husband stops and gets a bag of their favorite candy on the way home.

[mommaduck]

I've "passed out tracts" one year, but not in the "teehee, I'm sneaking the evil Jack Chick comic into the kiddies' bags" bit. We had friends in the neighbourhood and knew they might try to come by. We placed a sign on the door simply stating that due to religious reasons we don't participate in All Hallow's Eve and I left a small box next to the sign that had "tracts" in it explaining further in case any PARENTS were interested in reading "why". Many people do not let their kids go alone anymore (even to the door) and I don't believe in proselytising other people's children, just as I wouldn't want them proselytising mine. If I'm going to state something, it'll be directed to the parents.

[KarenNC]

I'm sorry, I did not intend to be confusing. I don't participate in Halloween at all. I've never passed out tracts for Halloween. The situation I described was purely hypothetical. I have no idea if you 'decorate your house in ghosts and withches', either. :001_smile:

 

(We don't attend a 'church' with 'members' in the traditional, American sense.) Either way, I believe this is where we disagree. I do not see Halloween as an 'apparently innocuous and secular' event.

 

I'm very sorry we feel so strongly in opposite directions. Blessings to you and your family.

 

And I have no problem with your viewing Halloween as such, choosing not to participate, etc. Totally your prerogative and not a need for apology. I can understand your issues with the wider culture celebrating in a very public manner something with which you do not agree and presuming that by default you agree with them. I have the same issues every December (actually on a pretty much daily basis). It takes a lot of work with a young child to explain why we are different or do some things differently than most others.

 

You weren't confusing. You asked why it would be a problem if someone passed out religious tracts to children in Halloween bags. That is the question I was answering, whether you did it or someone else did it. The actual core question has really nothing to do with Halloween specifically. The core question is whether or not it is justifiable to use deceptive means to proselytize to children without their parents' knowledge in order to convert them to what one believes is the correct religion. Halloween is just the most current opportunity. It could be passing out tracts with candy or similar behavior at any time of year or another form of stealth proselytization. It is the *specific behavior*, not the belief system, to which I object. I do not agree with the folks who put on "Hell Houses" either, for instance, but at least they are honest and open about what they are doing and I can make an informed choice about whether my child participates.

 

Unfortunately, it is *not* hypothetical around here---people do indeed do it, including with some of the Chick tracts I've referenced and worse. They also put tracts in library books in the children's section, leave them on tables in restaurants popular with children, etc, ---places where one could reasonably expect that a young child would encounter the material without a parent knowing about it beforehand. They frequently include many of the more extremely graphic and violent/scary ones, especially the ones with graphic abortion photos, etc. There have been several occasions on which I have had to snatch a particularly graphic card or pamphlet away from my child's reach in hopes that she did not see it long enough for it to register. Going to the library or McDonald's shouldn't be the equivalent of entering a mine field. Luckily the practice seems to be waning of late, at least around here.

 

We also have a number of such "stealth" groups around here who proselytize in the guise of "summer camp" or attractive activities. These are held in locations that are not typically associated with their religious activities (a neighbor's yard, the park, etc), with advertising that deliberately says nothing about their true purpose or their religious affiliation, specifically in order to get kids in under false pretenses. The ends do not justify using any and every means.

 

Whether you personally attend a church with members or not is actually beside the point, as is how I might decorate my house. The point is whether the person who would engage in such behavior would welcome such proselytization of their own young children in a similar manner by someone from a different religion. I have yet to encounter one who would.

 

Peace,

Karen

Edited October 2, 2008 by KarenNC

[KarenNC]

I've "passed out tracts" one year, but not in the "teehee, I'm sneaking the evil Jack Chick comic into the kiddies' bags" bit. We had friends in the neighbourhood and knew they might try to come by. We placed a sign on the door simply stating that due to religious reasons we don't participate in All Hallow's Eve and I left a small box next to the sign that had "tracts" in it explaining further in case any PARENTS were interested in reading "why". Many people do not let their kids go alone anymore (even to the door) and I don't believe in proselytising other people's children, just as I wouldn't want them proselytising mine. If I'm going to state something, it'll be directed to the parents.

 

And that is an upfront and honest approach which I can respect.

[mommaduck]

Just want to clarify a bit more...I've had some children corner me with a question here or there (haven't we all?). I try to answer honestly, but carefully (ie., letting them know I don't want to undermine their parents...but this is what "WE" believe) or I redirect (let me talk with your parents about that one before giving you an answer, okay?). Then I head for their parents so we can figure out an approach or at least let them know their child asked this, here's my answer, do you want to deal or do you want me to answer but I prefer your presence so you can discuss the differences with them later. It is a matter of respect regardless of what I believe. If Gd opens a door, He will open a door. I don't have to "sneak" it in the bag (this is deception, whether intentional or not, it is viewed in that manner by others).

 

 

 

(we don't do Christmass or Easter either ;) so, I've had to deal with this issue from both sides)

Edited October 2, 2008 by mommaduck

[KarenNC]

Just want to clarify a bit more...I've had some children corner me with a question here or there (haven't we all?). I try to answer honestly, but carefully (ie., letting them know I don't want to undermine their parents...but this is what "WE" believe) or I redirect (let me talk with your parents about that one before giving you an answer, okay?). Then I head for their parents so we can figure out an approach or at least let them know their child asked this, here's my answer, do you want to deal or do you want me to answer but I prefer your presence so you can discuss the differences with them later. It is a matter of respect regardless of what I believe. If Gd opens a door, He will open a door. I don't have to "sneak" it in the bag (this is deception, whether intentional or not, it is viewed in that manner by others).

 

My niece, who was 10 at the time, was staying with us during the day for a week before school started. She came and said "Aunt Karen, do you really believe there's more than one God?". I told her yes, I did, but what is most important is not what I believe or her cousin believes but that she stick to and live by what *she* believes. Of course I then also talked with my sister (who knows we are not Christian, but I don't know that it really sunk in with her until then;)), about the conversation when she came to pick up my niece.

 

For us, the more frequent issue as my daughter has gotten older is between her and other children. We chose an inclusive support group, because I believe it is important that she learn to get along with people of all different sorts of backgrounds, but I was careful to lay out the fact that we were Neopagan on the table for them right upfront. We have been extremely fortunate that they are welcoming. We have had one or two instances where the kids have gotten into an argument over religion, but I view it as a learning experience. She is going to encounter this sort of thing lifelong, being a member of a very minority religion. Better that it happen in a supportive group, among children who know her as a person rather than just a religious label and whose parents are willing to work together as we all help the kids learn appropriate ways to deal with and respect people who are different, even when we don't agree with them.

[LibraryLover]

 

These are, IMO, specifically designed to be deceptive.

 

WWJD? I have my suspicions.

 

Indeed.

[mommaduck]

My niece, who was 10 at the time, was staying with us during the day for a week before school started. She came and said "Aunt Karen, do you really believe there's more than one God?". I told her yes, I did, but what is most important is not what I believe or her cousin believes but that she stick to and live by what *she* believes. Of course I then also talked with my sister (who knows we are not Christian, but I don't know that it really sunk in with her until then;)), about the conversation when she came to pick up my niece.

 

For us, the more frequent issue as my daughter has gotten older is between her and other children. We chose an inclusive support group, because I believe it is important that she learn to get along with people of all different sorts of backgrounds, but I was careful to lay out the fact that we were Neopagan on the table for them right upfront. We have been extremely fortunate that they are welcoming. We have had one or two instances where the kids have gotten into an argument over religion, but I view it as a learning experience. She is going to encounter this sort of thing lifelong, being a member of a very minority religion. Better that it happen in a supportive group, among children who know her as a person rather than just a religious label and whose parents are willing to work together as we all help the kids learn appropriate ways to deal with and respect people who are different, even when we don't agree with them.

OT but, I prefer Inclusive groups as well, because we usually are too conservative for some people and too liberal for others. I get tired of fighting those battles with other Christians and there are some events I would just rather focus on the event than on the battles. My kids learn about other beliefs as we study our own...why? Because there are other people in the world and they will have to interact with them. And when discussing their faith vs another I don't want them coming up with the ignorant, broadbrushed assumptions that get thrown out there...instead they need to be able to approach the discussion with facts, some understanding, and logic.

[Rebecca in GA]

It's a fun night! We watch specials and movies ("Nightmare Before Christmas" is a fave) and dress up (nothing scary), trick or treat in the neighborhood, etc. DH and I usually watch the original "Halloween" without the children, and it scares me witless for the rest of the year. :)

[KarenNC]

It's a fun night! We watch specials and movies ("Nightmare Before Christmas" is a fave) and dress up (nothing scary), trick or treat in the neighborhood, etc. DH and I usually watch the original "Halloween" without the children, and it scares me witless for the rest of the year. :)

 

If you like Nightmare Before Christmas, you will probably enjoy the new movie, Igor. We went to see it last week. It owes a lot to Tim Burton and Nightmare. I particularly enjoyed catching the passing references to old horror movies like The Fly, Psycho, Clockwork Orange, etc.

 

I'm afraid I can't handle the slasher flicks at all, never could. I have to admit, I saw Clockwork Orange in college and it *still* bothers me.

[Plucky]

Is this kind of post really necessary? This is a poll. If people want to clarify their stance they can. :001_huh:

[gandpsmommy]

And this is a THING that people do? How have I never heard of it? I mean NEVER heard of it. How interesting!

 

I've never heard of it either. :confused:

[Cindy in C-ville]

I put "other" b/c it changes from year to year. Unlike other holidays, particulary Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, and family birthdays :), I don't care whether or not we have family traditions. So, every year looks different depending on what's going on in our lives, what opportunities come up, etc. We've gone out to eat. We've gone to a "trunk or treat" (we're in VA, if that makes a difference) at a local church. We've gone to Harvest Festivals. We've hung out at home and watched movies. We've passed out candy in our neighborhood. This year, I'm speaking at a women's retreat in PA that weekend and so dh will do something with the kids, I'm sure. We don't like scary stuff and all the displays at the stores give me the creeps. We're not anti-culture, we just don't like Halloween a whole lot - not only for the scary stuff, but also b/c of all the candy. We just don't need it and would rather do w/o it.