..

[Hot Lava Mama]

.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Hot Lava Mama

[DebbS]

Many scholarships require that you fill out the FAFSA even though they may not be primarily based on need. I think that need is sometimes used as a tie-breaker after merit is considered.  Also, if you are considering student loans, you have to fill out the FAFSA. 

[anne1456]

If later in the year a financial setback happens, like a job loss, if you have filled out the FAFSA you can still take out the federal loans. It won't change any values, but you can take out unsubsidized loans until the end of the school year if you have filed a FAFSA, even if you declined the loans earlier in the year.

Edited March 8, 2016 by anne1456

[teachermom2834]

My ds has a school on his list that automatically awards at least $2000 in grants regardless of need just for filling out the FAFSA.

[JanetC]

1. You get access to unsubsidized student loans (which everyone qualifies for, regardless of income).

 

2. Some schools say that if you do not apply for aid freshman year, you are ineligible to apply for aid in subsequent years, and what if something changes? (I saw this at a highly selective school. Sometimes parents think they will get a "full pay" bump in admissions chances if they don't apply for aid, and figure they can always apply sophomore year. The school wants to have a better idea of the financial aid budget and shut this down.)

 

 

[G5052]

My oldest would not be eligible for merit aid without it.

 

Is it a pain? YES.

[J-rap]

For one dd, she only had merit scholarships (but they were very good), and didn't qualify for other aid (except loans, but we weren't going to take out the typical loan).  After filling it out one year, we realized it wasn't necessary for her the following years, so we never filled it out for her again.  She still qualified for additional school scholarships later on.  (foreign language scholarships)

 

Another dd is at the earlier stages of her college career, an although she didn't get any additional aid besides merit scholarships, in her case, it's still to her advantage to fill it out partly because our financial situation has changed a lot this past year, but also because the school seems to want it for some other smaller scholarships they randomly offer from time to time.

 

So, I guess it depends on the school, and also whether you see your financial situation changing at all.

[Lori D.]

You may not be awarded any scholarships what so ever. And DS will not be eligible for possible work-study money or other federal or state grant monies.

 

Our experience: DS does not have an EFC number from the FAFSA that will EVER get near being awarded any need-based aid, but his university still required the FAFSA in order to award him a 50% of tuition merit-based scholarship. This year, he was able to renew that 50% of tuition scholarship, and also received an additional leadership scholarship for several thousand $$. He would not have received any scholarships without filling out FAFSA.

 

Some schools also require you to fill out a new FAFSA each year in order to receive the scholarship again the next year, but that has not been the case for DS's school -- just a "one-and-done" for FAFSA.

 

Really, it's not *that* big a deal -- register and set up a PIN number with FAFSA; file your tax return electronically; and then you can use the IRS Data Retrieval Tool. If you don't have your 2015 taxes done, you can use your 2014 tax return for estimates, and then go back after you file the 2015 tax return and make any adjustments.

 

What's REALLY a pain and very time-consuming is if your choice of school requires you to fill out the CSS Financial Aid Profile...

Edited March 8, 2016 by Lori D.

[TranquilMind]

Many scholarships require that you fill out the FAFSA even though they may not be primarily based on need. I think that need is sometimes used as a tie-breaker after merit is considered.  Also, if you are considering student loans, you have to fill out the FAFSA. 

That is truly the most ridiculous thing I have learned in recent years.  There has got to be some nefarious money-making scheme going on, to demand the personal information of millions of parents for students who don't even want to borrow money.  It should never ever be required of anyone.  If you want to borrow all that money, just know you are paying it back - which should be a deterrent to over-borrowing.  Period. 

[justasque]

Some schools require it in order for students to qualify for merit scholarships. When you think about it, if a school has a limited amount of merit money to offer, it makes sense for them to require that everyone apply for all the federal money they may qualify for before the school decides how to spread that merit money around. Merit money, in part, helps to incentivize high-performing students to choose that school, by lowering the price. If the school can use federal money to do this, they can save a bit of their merit money pool for another student.

 

In addition, work-study subsidies help keep the cost of employing students as low as possible, which helps the school's budget. Requiring the FAFSA ensures that as many school-employed students as possible qualify for the subsidized salaries this program provides.

 

The FAFSA doesn't take much time, and even though you probably have an accurate idea of what kinds of aid you may qualify for, if you don't do the FAFSA, you really don't know if you are missing out on anything. Do it for Freshman year, then discuss with the school your child attends to see how they use it and whether it is necessary for subsequent years.

[TranquilMind]

My ds has a school on his list that automatically awards at least $2000 in grants regardless of need just for filling out the FAFSA.

Why?

 

This is not altruism in action. That's for darn sure. 

[justasque]

That is truly the most ridiculous thing I have learned in recent years.  There has got to be some nefarious money-making scheme going on, to demand the personal information of millions of parents for students who don't even want to borrow money.  It should never ever be required of anyone.  If you want to borrow all that money, just know you are paying it back - which should be a deterrent to over-borrowing.  Period.

If the school wants to incentivize your student to attend by bringing down the cost to <sticker price - x>, then it makes sense for the school to include any federal grants you may qualify for in their financial aid package, rather than covering the whole amount themselves when federal money may have been available. Say they would like to offer you a total package of $20K. Why should they cough up the entire $20K, if you might qualify for a federal grant for $5K, just by filling out the FAFSA, which would leave them to come up with only $15K from their budget instead of the whole $20K? Why should you suck up $20K of the school's money, when by filling out the FAFSA you could free up $5k of their money to go to another student?

 

I realize at some point it's something of a shell game - the $5K does come from the neighbors (taxpayers) after all, and the school's merit money comes out of the budget that's supported by your tuition (even if the scholarship money is a different line item). Nonetheless, I think it's wise for a school to require a student to apply for any available federal money as part of the process of asking the school for financial aid of any kind. Of course, if you plan to pay the entire sticker price out of pocket, then there's clearly no need for you to fill out the FAFSA, and if this is the case, I think most schools do not require it.

[TranquilMind]

If the school wants to incentivize your student to attend by bringing down the cost to <sticker price - x>, then it makes sense for the school to include any federal grants you may qualify for in their financial aid package, rather than covering the whole amount themselves when federal money may have been available. Say they would like to offer you a total package of $20K. Why should they cough up the entire $20K, if you might qualify for a federal grant for $5K, just by filling out the FAFSA, which would leave them to come up with only $15K from their budget instead of the whole $20K? Why should you suck up $20K of the school's money, when by filling out the FAFSA you could free up $5k of their money to go to another student?

 

I realize at some point it's something of a shell game - the $5K does come from the neighbors (taxpayers) after all, and the school's merit money comes out of the budget that's supported by your tuition (even if the scholarship money is a different line item). Nonetheless, I think it's wise for a school to require a student to apply for any available federal money as part of the process of asking the school for financial aid of any kind. Of course, if you plan to pay the entire sticker price out of pocket, then there's clearly no need for you to fill out the FAFSA, and if this is the case, I think most schools do not require it.

Or, the school could just offer a price reasonable enough for you to choose it in the first place and stop with all the games and federal money laundering.  How about we quit looking at ways that people can extract money from "the government" (which is all of us) and price things correctly in the first place.

 

(Hyperbole, but hey, my husband just got a bonus.  We were thrilled with that, but guess what - Uncle same skimmed off well over FORTY percent!  Believe me, my track record for spending money is much better than Washington's)

. 

 

You can bet that school A, that has just started offering reasonable tuition will be deluged.  Why should MY personal information be captured and resold so that someone can make money from me just because my kid wants to attend college?  That's just wrong on all levels. 

[justasque]

Why?

 

This is not altruism in action. That's for darn sure.

They may have found that not everyone who is eligible for federal aid fills out the forms, possibly because they think they won't qualify for anything. It benefits the school if students get the maximum federal aid for which they qualify, as it makes school more affordable which in turn may make it more likely the student completes their degree. A school can jack up the tuition price by $2K, then tell their students that if they fill out the FAFSA, their tuition will be reduced by $2K. This is likely to encourage almost every student/parent to fill out the FAFSA and thus get all of the federal money for which they qualify. In addition, the federal money thus obtained helps make the school offer a more affordable price to the student, which may encourage them to follow through and attend the school. And, as I mentioned previously, having lots of students who qualify for work-study job subsidies can help a school's budget by providing student labor at federally-subsidized wages.

[TranquilMind]

They may have found that not everyone who is eligible for federal aid fills out the forms, possibly because they think they won't qualify for anything. It benefits the school if students get the maximum federal aid for which they qualify, as it makes school more affordable which in turn may make it more likely the student completes their degree. A school can jack up the tuition price by $2K, then tell their students that if they fill out the FAFSA, their tuition will be reduced by $2K. This is likely to encourage almost every student/parent to fill out the FAFSA and thus get all of the federal money for which they qualify. In addition, the federal money thus obtained helps make the school offer a more affordable price to the student, which may encourage them to follow through and attend the school. And, as I mentioned previously, having lots of students who qualify for work-study job subsidies can help a school's budget by providing student labor at federally-subsidized wages.

Do we need Big Brother to tell us all what to do because a few can't do it or don't know any better?  That job could be handled by high school counselors.   You can do it all without extracting private financial information from parents.

 

Yeah, it is really making school more affordable!  (sarcasm - not toward you, but at the whole ridiculous process). 

Edited March 8, 2016 by TranquilMind

[justasque]

Or, the school could just offer a price reasonable enough for you to choose it in the first place and stop with all the games and federal money laundering.  How about we quit looking at ways that people can extract money from "the government" (which is all of us) and price things correctly in the first place.

 

(Hyperbole, but hey, my husband just got a bonus.  We were thrilled with that, but guess what - Uncle same skimmed off well over FORTY percent!  Believe me, my track record for spending money is much better than Washington's)

. 

 

You can bet that school A, that has just started offering reasonable tuition will be deluged.  Why should MY personal information be captured and resold so that someone can make money from me just because my kid wants to attend college?  That's just wrong on all levels.

School A, if their program is decent, may well be deluged. Which will make it harder to get into, and suck many top students away from other schools. School B, then, will need to look at how they can compete. Giving a discount to less-qualified students doesn't benefit School B - they will need to attract top students so that their school is perceived as "better than", or at least on a par with School A. (They will have no problem attracting the lower-ranked students, who no longer will be able to get in to School A, and will thus be more likely to pony up the higher cost of school B.) Rather than lower their price overall, giving the same "discount" to every student, School B may do better by offering more money to top students, so that for those students School B costs the same or less than School A. That is what many merit aid dollars are used for - to encourage top students to attend a particular school. It's more complex than that of course, as some schools have more merit aid dollars available than others, what each school has to offer for the price varies widely, and so on. But college in the US is a capitalist endeavor, thus the sticker price varies with demand, and individual students who can make the school more desirable to future students often get a discount accordingly.

Edited March 8, 2016 by justasque

[TranquilMind]

School A, if their program is decent, may well be deluged. Which will make it harder to get into, and suck many top students away from other schools. School B, then, will need to look at how they can compete. Giving a discount to less-qualified students doesn't benefit School B - they will need to attract top students so that their school is perceived as "better than", or at least on a par with School A. Rather than lower their price overall,giving the same "discount" to every student, they may do better by offering more money to top students, so that for those students School B costs the same or less than School A. That is what many merit aid dollars are used for - to encourage top students to attend a particular school. It's more complex than that of course, as some schools have more merit aid dollars available than others, what each school has to offer for the price varies widely, and so on. But college in the US is a capitalist endeavor, thus the sticker price varies with demand, and individual students who can make the school more desirable to future students often get a discount accordingly.

I can tell them how to compete.  Lower your ridiculous prices.  You have the lowest price (and obviously, a program the kid wants), you are the winner.  Period.  Bid for students, so to speak, and leave their parents and their parents' personal financial information OUT of it. 

 

I just don't like game playing and that is all this is.  You want to give someone merit aid, then give it. 

 

Everything is wrong with this system.  It is ridiculous. 

 

 

[justasque]

Do we need Big Brother to tell us all what to do because a few can't do it or don't know any better?  That job could be handled by high school counselors.   You can do it all without extracting private financial information from parents.

 

Yeah, it is really making school more affordable!  (sarcasm - not toward you, but at the whole ridiculous process).

I do have some sympathy for what you're saying. But how would they know who to lean on to complete the FAFSA, without knowing who will qualify for federal FAFSA funds? Because you can't know who will qualify until they complete the FAFSA (unless you have the parents' private financial information). In other words, neither the college, nor the guidance counselor, have any way of knowing which students should complete the FAFSA because they will be eligible for funding, and which students can safely skip it because they won't be eligible. Thus the global FAFSA encouragement and incentivization. I suppose they could create some kind of screening process, but that that point you might as well just have them fill out the form - it is already, in essence, a screening process, if that makes sense.

[TranquilMind]

I do have some sympathy for what you're saying. But how would they know who to lean on to complete the FAFSA, without knowing who will qualify for federal FAFSA funds? Because you can't know who will qualify until they complete the FAFSA (unless you have the parents' private financial information). In other words, neither the college, nor the guidance counselor, have any way of knowing which students should complete the FAFSA because they will be eligible for funding, and which students can safely skip it because they won't be eligible. Thus the global FAFSA encouragement and incentivization. I suppose they could create some kind of screening process, but that that point you might as well just have them fill out the form - it is already, in essence, a screening process, if that makes sense.

Baloney! 

 

Parents do taxes.  Tell the parents to look at their taxes and if they make under X amount or have over Y kids, they qualify.  THOSE PARENTS, or those who think they have special circumstances can then provide information if they want to. 

 

Let us qualify ourselves.  We don't need them to qualify us.  We aren't children that need Big Daddy to tell us what to do.

Edited March 8, 2016 by TranquilMind

[Lori D.]

That is truly the most ridiculous thing I have learned in recent years.  There has got to be some nefarious money-making scheme going on, to demand the personal information of millions of parents for students who don't even want to borrow money.  It should never ever be required of anyone.  If you want to borrow all that money, just know you are paying it back - which should be a deterrent to over-borrowing.  Period. 

 

I know it may sound ridiculous, but it's really not. Yes, I'm sure part of it has to do with Federal student loans, but not entirely.

 

Some of this has to do with the Federal grant money (work study, Pell Grants, and FSEOG grants), and the fact that the Federal aid money is actually distributed through the individual colleges -- the colleges get a chunk of money, and as students apply, the colleges allot the money via financial aid packages. The colleges are not the source of that aid, just the conduit, and the schools do NOT want to get in trouble with the Feds for mis-distributing Federal financial aid to students who were not in fact eligible.

 

By requiring a FAFSA from everyone, that allows the school to make sure they are not overlooking someone who really IS eligible for the Federal aid (because the school wants to hand out ALL of that money, so they get that much again to distribute the following year, because that makes their financial aid statistics look good). And it also makes sure they aren't accidentally awarding Federal aid to someone who is not eligible.

 

Justasque provided great detailed info on other reasons why colleges require FAFSA from all students. :)

 

I do entirely agree that we have a broken college system. I just wanted to share that there are valid reasons why schools require the FAFSA.

 

 

Do we need Big Brother to tell us all what to do because a few can't do it or don't know any better?  That job could be handled by high school counselors...

 

Many high schools do not have the funds for a counselor; those that do have 1 counselor trying to administer information about career counseling, college admissions, scholarships, and the huge range of financial aid topics to hundreds of students. Just not numerically realistic. :) As you are discovering for yourself in walking through the college process with your own children, this is not an easy job; every college requires different things at different times. Imagine trying to walk through the process with 100 students, each with different post-high school goals, or colleges of interest…  :eek:

 

Every state has different high school graduation requirements. Without some nationalized processes (FAFSA, ACT/SAT testing, college admission requirements/high school graduation requirements), it would be extremely difficult for colleges to compare students to know who is a good match for the school or really deserving or in need of aid.

 

Again, not trying to fight you, TranquilMind, because I do agree it's a broken system. And, I know it doesn't *feel* like much of a choice to either submit the financial info for a shot at merit aid, OR chose to opt out and likely receive no aid, but it is a choice. Another possibility might be to attend an out-of-country university -- while traveling to the out-of-country school would be expensive, I understand that tuition is often much much less… So that might be worth looking into. :)

Edited March 8, 2016 by Lori D.

[TranquilMind]

I know it may sound ridiculous, but it's really not. Yes, I'm sure part of it has to do with Federal student loans, but not entirely.

 

Some of this has to do with the Federal grant money (work study, Pell Grants, and FSEOG grants), and the fact that the Federal aid money is actually distributed through the individual colleges -- the colleges get a chunk of money, and as students apply, the colleges allot the money via financial aid packages. The colleges are not the source of that aid, just the conduit, and the schools do NOT want to get in trouble with the Feds for mis-distributing Federal financial aid to students who were not in fact eligible.

 

By requiring a FAFSA from everyone, that allows the school to make sure they are not overlooking someone who really IS eligible for the Federal aid (because the school wants to hand out ALL of that money, so they get that much again to distribute the following year, because that makes their financial aid statistics look good). And it also makes sure they aren't accidentally awarding Federal aid to someone who is not eligible.

 

 

I do entirely agree that we have a broken college system. I just wanted to share that there are valid reasons why schools require the FAFSA.

Those are not valid reasons to me.  The whole system is broken and needs to be fixed and our personal information needs to be left out of it.  We have enough leaks and hacks everywhere. 

Parents have more motivation than anyone else to figure out if they qualify so they should do that privately.  It is NONE of the school's business and government money should not be in this at all. 

[justasque]

Also, to be fair, not every school requires or incentivizes all students to fill out the FAFSA. At some schools, if you don't need aid, you don't have to apply for it, and thus you don't have to do the FAFSA.

 

And not every school accepts federal money; the schools that don't accept federal aid (usually for religious reasons) don't require the FAFSA (and their students aren't eligible for FAFSA funds).

[Pegasus]

(Hyperbole, but hey, my husband just got a bonus.  We were thrilled with that, but guess what - Uncle same skimmed off well over FORTY percent!  Believe me, my track record for spending money is much better than Washington's)

. 

 

Just a slight clarification: your DH's employer withheld well over 40% of the bonus.  On your tax return next year, the bonus money will be included in income and taxed at the regular income tax rates.  Bonuses are not taxed at a higher rate than regular earned income, but are often withheld at a higher level. The higher withholding will either decrease the amount of tax you owe, or increase your tax refund.

[TranquilMind]

Just a slight clarification: your DH's employer withheld well over 40% of the bonus. On your tax return next year, the bonus money will be included in income and taxed at the regular income tax rates. Bonuses are not taxed at a higher rate than regular earned income, but are often withheld at a higher level. The higher withholding will either decrease the amount of tax you owe, or increase your tax refund.

What is a refund?

[Hot Lava Mama]

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Hot Lava Mama

[Hot Lava Mama]

.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Hot Lava Mama

[Lori D.]

Those are not valid reasons to me.  The whole system is broken and needs to be fixed and our personal information needs to be left out of it.  We have enough leaks and hacks everywhere. 

Parents have more motivation than anyone else to figure out if they qualify so they should do that privately.  It is NONE of the school's business and government money should not be in this at all. 

 

Dh and I are unhappy about having to lay out ALL our financial stuff out to the school and the government.  It is none of their business, as far as I am concerned!  They must do all this stuff so that everyone HAS to do the form.  What a scam. 

 

Totally understand your strong feelings and frustrations here. But -- you do have a choice. You do not have to file the FAFSA, and your student will still be admitted to college. The FAFSA is only about applying for financial aid, and is not required for applying for admission to college. So you do not have to share your financials with the school or with the government if you do not wish to. And, again, there is the possibility of applying to an out-to-country university, which does not require FAFSA.

 

I'm not at all trying to justify the current system, and I'm certainly not saying I agree with it. But, bottom line: if you want some of the money that is available out there to help pay for college, it comes at the price of jumping certain hoops. Only you can decide if you want the money enough to jump those hoops. You are absolutely free to chose to not do hoop-jumping; it may even propel you into some great out-of-the-box thinking and find a work-around so you don't have to provide your financial info to FAFSA or to the school. That would be great! :)

 

And, if for both TranquilMind and Hot Lava Mama, this was meant as a JAWM post, then -- yep! We agree! It's no fun running into these "rock and a hard place" kinds of choices. :grouphug:  Wishing you all the the best in this matter and in all your college and career counselor decisions! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Lori D.]

Thanks for all the information, everyone.  Very eye opening, even as I cry my eyes out over the prospect of all the bureaucracy that is the college application process!

 

I guess we have to do the *&%^)$*#)_$*#$   FAFSA form anyways.  Darn it.  (She says as she kicks the dirt in disgust!)

 

Hot Lava Mama

 

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  The first time around is the hardest. It usually gets easier with the next students (provided none of them needs the CSS). And when my DSs landed merit aid scholarships, it was so very exciting that it helped the paperwork pain recede. :) Hope that will be the case for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[justasque]

Baloney! 

 

Parents do taxes.  Tell the parents to look at their taxes and if they make under X amount or have over Y kids, they qualify.  THOSE PARENTS, or those who think they have special circumstances can then provide information if they want to. 

 

Let us qualify ourselves.  We don't need them to qualify us.  We aren't children that need Big Daddy to tell us what to do.

 

There are online calculators that do just that, such as the FAFSA4caster which estimate what kinds of need-based federal aid you may qualify for. Parents can run the FAFSA4caster and then use the results to decide if they wish to actually file a FAFSA. (I don't think any of the colleges I have dealt with have REQUIRED anyone to submit a FAFSA, it's usually only needed if you are applying for financial aid.)

 

 

Those are not valid reasons to me.  The whole system is broken and needs to be fixed and our personal information needs to be left out of it.  We have enough leaks and hacks everywhere. 

Parents have more motivation than anyone else to figure out if they qualify so they should do that privately.  It is NONE of the school's business and government money should not be in this at all.

 

 Well, I think that your financial information is none of the school's business *if* you are not asking them for financial aid. Once you start asking others (the school, and/or your neighbors (the taxpayers)) to kick in for your college tuition, I think it's not unreasonable for those others to ask for some basic financial info to determine how needy you are compared to other students who are asking for their money. There's a limited amount of money available from the school (and also from your neighbors, the taxpayers), and the idea is that the FAFSA helps to make sure that money goes to students in proportion with their need. It's not a perfect process, of course, but if there is going to be need-based aid, then I don't think it's unreasonable for the people providing that money to ask you for some basic info regarding the extent and circumstances of your need.

 

 

Dh and I are unhappy about having to lay out ALL our financial stuff out to the school and the government.  It is none of their business, as far as I am concerned!  They must do all this stuff so that everyone HAS to do the form.  What a scam.

Well, if you are asking someone for money because you cannot afford something you want, especially if it is money you don't have to pay back (e.g. grants, work-study subsidies) how is it a scam for them to expect some basic financial information from you, to show that you do actually fall into the category of people needy enough to qualify? How are THEY scamming YOU if they are giving you money to help you pay for something you want, that you couldn't otherwise afford?

[goldberry]

Just a slight clarification: your DH's employer withheld well over 40% of the bonus.  On your tax return next year, the bonus money will be included in income and taxed at the regular income tax rates.  Bonuses are not taxed at a higher rate than regular earned income, but are often withheld at a higher level. The higher withholding will either decrease the amount of tax you owe, or increase your tax refund.

 

Off topic fact, this is usually because accounting programs deduct based on a pay schedule.  If you are on a weekly schedule, but then are paid $10,000 instead of $600, the program will deduct as if you are making $10,000 a week and not just a one time thing.  

 

At a company I work for, when bonuses are given out twice a year, employees will often ask to have their deduction adjusted from the automatic deduction.  There is nothing illegal about that.  

 

You may continue now... ;)

[TranquilMind]

Totally understand your strong feelings and frustrations here. But -- you do have a choice. You do not have to file the FAFSA, and your student will still be admitted to college. The FAFSA is only about applying for financial aid, and is not required for applying for admission to college. So you do not have to share your financials with the school or with the government if you do not wish to. And, again, there is the possibility of applying to an out-to-country university, which does not require FAFSA.

 

I'm not at all trying to justify the current system, and I'm certainly not saying I agree with it. But, bottom line: if you want some of the money that is available out there to help pay for college, it comes at the price of jumping certain hoops. Only you can decide if you want the money enough to jump those hoops. You are absolutely free to chose to not do hoop-jumping; it may even propel you into some great out-of-the-box thinking and find a work-around so you don't have to provide your financial info to FAFSA or to the school. That would be great! :)

 

And, if for both TranquilMind and Hot Lava Mama, this was meant as a JAWM post, then -- yep! We agree! It's no fun running into these "rock and a hard place" kinds of choices. :grouphug:  Wishing you all the the best in this matter and in all your college and career counselor decisions! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Thanks Lori, for the understanding.  Just venting really.  We have already covered it another way.  But I will always fight personal information grabs anywhere, anytime. 

 

Recently, I had a kid have surgery.  Every single medical party involved wanted SSN's of all of us - parents and kid alike.  Nope.  All you are entitled to is to be paid for services rendered.  You don't get anything else except basic info. 

[TranquilMind]

Off topic fact, this is usually because accounting programs deduct based on a pay schedule.  If you are on a weekly schedule, but then are paid $10,000 instead of $600, the program will deduct as if you are making $10,000 a week and not just a one time thing.  

 

At a company I work for, when bonuses are given out twice a year, employees will often ask to have their deduction adjusted from the automatic deduction.  There is nothing illegal about that.  

 

You may continue now... ;)

Hmm, interesting point.  I did not know this, but am surprised if tax-savvy spouse did not know.  Maybe he was just too busy and forgot to look into it.  Will bring it up and thanks for the info. 

[TranquilMind]

 

There are online calculators that do just that, such as the FAFSA4caster which estimate what kinds of need-based federal aid you may qualify for. Parents can run the FAFSA4caster and then use the results to decide if they wish to actually file a FAFSA. (I don't think any of the colleges I have dealt with have REQUIRED anyone to submit a FAFSA, it's usually only needed if you are applying for financial aid.)

 

 

 Well, I think that your financial information is none of the school's business *if* you are not asking them for financial aid. Once you start asking others (the school, and/or your neighbors (the taxpayers)) to kick in for your college tuition, I think it's not unreasonable for those others to ask for some basic financial info to determine how needy you are compared to other students who are asking for their money. There's a limited amount of money available from the school (and also from your neighbors, the taxpayers), and the idea is that the FAFSA helps to make sure that money goes to students in proportion with their need. It's not a perfect process, of course, but if there is going to be need-based aid, then I don't think it's unreasonable for the people providing that money to ask you for some basic info regarding the extent and circumstances of your need.

 

 

Well, if you are asking someone for money because you cannot afford something you want, especially if it is money you don't have to pay back (e.g. grants, work-study subsidies) how is it a scam for them to expect some basic financial information from you, to show that you do actually fall into the category of people needy enough to qualify? How are THEY scamming YOU if they are giving you money to help you pay for something you want, that you couldn't otherwise afford?

I did not ask.  But I still object in principle.  It is wrong to overcharge for college (and medical things, and, and....).  And it is wrong to extract more information than necessary to answer the question being evaluated.  Income should be sufficient.  Income and possibly special circumstances, like numerous kids. 

 

Let's get rid of the government aid altogether and charge reasonable prices.  Once government gets its hands into something, the cost spirals ever upward, and people get less and less, while their taxes rise.  Let's leave this between colleges and prospective students. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  The first time around is the hardest. It usually gets easier with the next students (provided none of them needs the CSS). And when my DSs landed merit aid scholarships, it was so very exciting that it helped the paperwork pain recede. :) Hope that will be the case for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

I guess what surprises me about all this is the sense of resignation, as if this is legitimate and just the way it is.  Several posters have responded in that sort of way. 

 

It is WRONG.  It is NOT OK to extract all personal information of all parents who are sending kids to college, even those who don't even want to borrow money, but who are forced into this by threats of not receiving any merit aid their kid may have earned either when college is overpriced by about 5 times at least.

 

How can all of you be so complacent about this (asked rhetorically, really)?   We need to protect what tiny shreds of our privacy actually remain. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by TranquilMind

[goldberry]

Hmm, interesting point.  I did not know this, but am surprised if tax-savvy spouse did not know.  Maybe he was just too busy and forgot to look into it.  Will bring it up and thanks for the info. 

 

I can see why a larger company might not allow anyone to make changes, it might be too big of a deal.  My company is smaller, so it's never been an issue.  There is actually a tax guideline from the IRS that says it's okay for the company to go down to a flat 25% holding on all bonuses (considered supplementary) instead of the automatic deduction.

[justasque]

I did not ask.  But I still object in principle.  It is wrong to overcharge for college (and medical things, and, and....).  And it is wrong to extract more information than necessary to answer the question being evaluated.  Income should be sufficient.  Income and possibly special circumstances, like numerous kids. 

...

 

TM, assuming you are sort of OK with them asking for income and number of kids, what other kinds of information are they asking for that you feel shouldn't be part of the process?  

[TranquilMind]

TM, assuming you are sort of OK with them asking for income and number of kids, what other kinds of information are they asking for that you feel shouldn't be part of the process?  

Everything else.  SSN's.  Tax information.  I don't even think they should be entitled to ask for income and number of kids. You should qualify yourself first, and if you indeed meet some criterion, then you can provide information for verification of that in order to get money, but why don't we just eliminate the bloated government and its bureaucracy in all this and lower the costs? 

 

I'm really not ok with any of it being demanded of anyone other than the student.  If you want to borrow money, you pay it back.  My parents had nothing to do with the few small loans I got.  Your parents shouldn't be responsible or screened for paying it back.  That's ridiculous.  Lots of parents and grandparents are now not going to be able to live because they unwisely co-signed some large school loans. 

Even the Bible says to avoid co-signing. 

[justasque]

Everything else.  SSN's.  Tax information.  I don't even think they should be entitled to ask for income and number of kids. You should qualify yourself first, and if you indeed meet some criterion, then you can provide information for verification of that in order to get money, but why don't we just eliminate the bloated government and its bureaucracy in all this and lower the costs? 

 

I'm really not ok with any of it being demanded of anyone other than the student.  If you want to borrow money, you pay it back.  My parents had nothing to do with the few small loans I got.  Your parents shouldn't be responsible or screened for paying it back.  That's ridiculous.  Lots of parents and grandparents are now not going to be able to live because they unwisely co-signed some large school loans. 

Even the Bible says to avoid co-signing.

I think the pre-screening option is a good idea, though I expect that to get an accurate answer you'd have to put in most if not all of the FAFSA information. However they could set it up so your data isn't saved if you don't want it to be. Having a pre-screening option might encourage some parents who are reluctant to file that doing so would result in their children getting access to grants, eligibility for subsidized work-study jobs, and subsidized loans (and allow parents whose kids won't qualify for aid avoid the FAFSA with no worries).

 

(As an aside, wouldn't the majority of tax information be part of the income picture needed to assess financial need? That is, what's on your taxes is largely information about your income, with the exception of SSNs, which are essentially tax IDs, yes? What would be on your taxes that wouldn't be relevant for FAFSA purposes?)

 

I do NOT agree that parents' info should't be required in the aid process. I feel strongly that before asking the neighbors (the taxpayers) for assistance, students should ask their parents. I don't want to pay for the neighbor's kid to go to college while their parents buy a new kitchen upgrade and a vacation to Europe, you know? The FAFSA process makes it clear that parents are expected to contribute to their children's college tuition before asking the neighbors to kick in.

 

That said, as I understand it, the subsidized loans that come from the FAFSA process do NOT need a co-signer. That is necessary only for private loans. I think that students and their families should think long and hard before getting private loans to pay for college. They should carefully consider whether the student's course of study is likely to result in employment that will allow them to pay back the loans in a timely fashion, and whether the school they want to attend is the most cost-effective choice. Sadly, the students who end up with private loans do not always have access to good advice in this area.

 

My kids have looked at colleges with an estimated cost of attendance (before aid) anywhere from almost $70K to less than $30K (including housing). Finding a school where the student has a good chance of acceptance, that offers the right combination of academics and price, isn't always easy. However, state schools are usually a fraction of the price of private schools. The trade-off is that state schools tend to be more bureaucratic, as well as less luxurious. They are the "budget" option. In recent years, though, I think bright students and savvy parents are giving state schools a closer look. Because of this, many of the state schools are getting more selective, making them harder to get into and also more likely to attract top students. Thus the market is to some extent taking care of the issue of rising tuition.

[Hot Lava Mama]

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Edited August 11, 2017 by Hot Lava Mama

[Hot Lava Mama]

.

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Hot Lava Mama

[Crimson Wife]

And it is wrong to extract more information than necessary to answer the question being evaluated. Income should be sufficient. Income and possibly special circumstances, like numerous kids.

Here is why using income alone without looking at other assets is unfair: it would encourage gaming the system. A fat cat lawyer making $400k/year and having $1M in assets quits and takes a job with the government or a non-profit making $50k per year. Should that person with $1M in assets get the same level of financial aid for his kid as the secretary married to a janitor who also have a combined income of $50k but who only have $1,000 in savings?

[justasque]

Here is why using income alone without looking at other assets is unfair: it would encourage gaming the system. A fat cat lawyer making $400k/year and having $1M in assets quits and takes a job with the government or a non-profit making $50k per year. Should that person with $1M in assets get the same level of financial aid for his kid as the secretary married to a janitor who also have a combined income of $50k but who only have $1,000 in savings?

Or, put another way, should the neighbors (the taxpayers) give less money to the secretary's/janitor's kid because the fat cat says their kid needs money too?

 

I see what some of you are saying - just eliminate all of this and charge everyone the same price. But I don't think that's likely to happen, and if it did, some people would be completely shut out of the opportunity to go to college.

 

I think it's unlikely for colleges to charge everyone the sticker price, because we live in a capitalist country, where market forces are part of how prices are set. Even without need-based aid, merit aid means that not every student will pay the sticker price. Let's face it, some kids are more "valuable" to a college because they bring with them high GPAs, high test scores, and other things that boost a school's rankings. In addition, they are more likely to complete their degree (improving the school's graduation rate stats), and more likely to move on to successful employment (and thus more likely to become donors to the school later in life.) The college is going to woo this kid, and providing financial aid that brings down the school's price is a very effective tool in the wooing game. The school is trading their aid money for the contribution the student makes to the school's current stats (the improved rankings from which will attract next year's crop of students). (Less-qualified students, unable to offer stats that will make the school look good, instead can offer the financial support that paying the sticker price will provide. It's a tricky balance; one that schools are constantly tweaking to get the right mix of high achievers and tuition dollars.) Many high-achieving students find themselves facing the decision of whether to go to a higher-ranked school with a larger price tag, or a lower-but-ok-ranked one with, thanks to their merit aid, a much smaller price tag. It's a tough decision, and in today's economy, I've seen a lot of kids in this position take the lower-priced school, so they can graduate debt-free. It's a racket, to some extent, but as long as there are rankings and parents/students who rely on them as part of how they choose a school, then schools must play the ranking game in order to survive.

 

When it comes to need-based aid, most of which is federal aid given via the FAFSA, it's the only system we have to level the playing field somewhat for low-income kids. See, in Crimson Wife's example, if need-based aid was eliminated (and the sticker prices lowered accordingly), the janitor's/secretary's kid might be ok, especially if they choose a local state school. But chances are if the janitor passes away, leaving only the secretary to help their child through school, there's just not going to be enough money to pay tuition and still put food on the table. Even if the kid is a great student, merit money rarely covers the entire cost of attendance; need-based aid usually closes the gap. It's easy to say the kid could just go on to be a plumber, or some other occupation that doesn't require a degree, and of course he might have a good life as a plumber, but if the kid has a passion and aptitude for a field that requires more education, say, bio-engineering of prosthetics, or aeronautical safety engineering, or nursing, we all lose when he can't fulfill his promise and put his gifts to their best use.

 

FWIW, like some of you, my family is going through the college application process this year. There were quite a number of good schools that we crossed off the list because they are only affordable by wealthy families, as the financial return on investment just isn't there, regardless of how good the education may be, and we didn't want to saddle our child with a lot of debt. The sticker prices of some of these schools seem insane to me. I hope everyone on this thread finds a "good fit" school for each their students, both academically and financially. I know that takes a lot of hard work! But it can be so, so worth it in the end.

[TranquilMind]

I think the pre-screening option is a good idea, though I expect that to get an accurate answer you'd have to put in most if not all of the FAFSA information. However they could set it up so your data isn't saved if you don't want it to be. Having a pre-screening option might encourage some parents who are reluctant to file that doing so would result in their children getting access to grants, eligibility for subsidized work-study jobs, and subsidized loans (and allow parents whose kids won't qualify for aid avoid the FAFSA with no worries).

 

(As an aside, wouldn't the majority of tax information be part of the income picture needed to assess financial need? That is, what's on your taxes is largely information about your income, with the exception of SSNs, which are essentially tax IDs, yes? What would be on your taxes that wouldn't be relevant for FAFSA purposes?)

 

I do NOT agree that parents' info should't be required in the aid process. I feel strongly that before asking the neighbors (the taxpayers) for assistance, students should ask their parents. I don't want to pay for the neighbor's kid to go to college while their parents buy a new kitchen upgrade and a vacation to Europe, you know? The FAFSA process makes it clear that parents are expected to contribute to their children's college tuition before asking the neighbors to kick in.

 

That said, as I understand it, the subsidized loans that come from the FAFSA process do NOT need a co-signer. That is necessary only for private loans. I think that students and their families should think long and hard before getting private loans to pay for college. They should carefully consider whether the student's course of study is likely to result in employment that will allow them to pay back the loans in a timely fashion, and whether the school they want to attend is the most cost-effective choice. Sadly, the students who end up with private loans do not always have access to good advice in this area.

 

My kids have looked at colleges with an estimated cost of attendance (before aid) anywhere from almost $70K to less than $30K (including housing). Finding a school where the student has a good chance of acceptance, that offers the right combination of academics and price, isn't always easy. However, state schools are usually a fraction of the price of private schools. The trade-off is that state schools tend to be more bureaucratic, as well as less luxurious. They are the "budget" option. In recent years, though, I think bright students and savvy parents are giving state schools a closer look. Because of this, many of the state schools are getting more selective, making them harder to get into and also more likely to attract top students. Thus the market is to some extent taking care of the issue of rising tuition.

Agreed.  Kids should ask their parents.  What is happening is that most kids and their parents are asking "the government" (all of us) to pay for it.  We need to change the entire system. 

 

Why would that kid be applying for financial aid if the parents are putting in a new kitchen and jetting off to Europe?  I guess that sort of idiocy doesn't compute here, but it probably has happened. 

 

The market needs to do a better job and the only way to get there is to eliminate government money. 

[Tree Frog]

For one dd, she only had merit scholarships (but they were very good), and didn't qualify for other aid (except loans, but we weren't going to take out the typical loan).  After filling it out one year, we realized it wasn't necessary for her the following years, so we never filled it out for her again.  She still qualified for additional school scholarships later on.  (foreign language scholarships)

 

Another dd is at the earlier stages of her college career, an although she didn't get any additional aid besides merit scholarships, in her case, it's still to her advantage to fill it out partly because our financial situation has changed a lot this past year, but also because the school seems to want it for some other smaller scholarships they randomly offer from time to time.

 

So, I guess it depends on the school, and also whether you see your financial situation changing at all.

 

DD was offered several good scholarships through her private university. Because she doesn't qualify for other aid, we asked if we needed to fill out FAFSA each year for her merit scholarships. DD was told no, it wasn't a requirement, and the financial aid office could process her scholarships manually. I'm glad we don't need to fill out the form, but dd has to stay on top of things each year to ensure she receives her scholarships. It makes me a little nervous because she couldn't attend the school without that aid. She has continued to receive new scholarships from the university even without the FAFSA. So I think it depends on the school.