Duggars are back on TV

[umsami]

At what point does limiting our children to protect them from the big bad in the world become abuse?

 

Well, in the case of the Duggars, there was *real* abuse.  They protected the cult and the family brand more than the victims.  That's abuse.

I think in the case of the Duggars, one could almost argue educational neglect....which is abuse. 

When one is brainwashed, which the ATI/IBLP is.... that's abuse.  When one disobeys or shows any independence streak, being sent off to be reprogrammed via ALERT or Journey to the Heart, one can argue that's abuse.

 

Has there been economic abuse as well?  Are the funds that the kids have earned on the show been put away in accounts that only they can access as adults or do Jim-Bob and Michelle control all funds?

 

*Control* is usually one of the gigantic warning signs of abuse.  Jim Bob appears to control even his adult children quite strictly. 

 

I'm sure Jim Bob will argue he's protecting his children....but it doesn't seem that way to me as an outsider.  

[Barb_]

That's actually pretty convincing, Umsami.

[Tsuga]

I feel sorry for Jessa and Jill because their victimization became fodder for the tabloids, they've got babies, no real education or job skills, and husbands who don't have great financial prospects for supporting them (especially Jessa's hubby, I think his name is Ben?)

 

They are young and they have choices. Many, many young people have FAR less than they have, and I don't even mean materially, in spite of everything. They have a basic high school education every one of them, they are young, they are articulate, they have families. They have connections across the country through their show and if any one of them wanted to change their lives and move forward with almost any type of lifestyle they could do it.

 

Of course I'm sorry for many, many people around the world who didn't have what I had, you know, but my mom was a single mom with a high school education, a drug-addicted ex-husband, and living in a tiny town with NO money. And she managed, yes she did. She got help but she did it. We see people like that--ADD, abused, ASD, homeless, ex-cons, every day and they make it in spite of the odds.

 

They are choosing this lifestyle. If they believe it's god's will for them, oh well. But they cannot deny that they have a choice.

[kubiac]

I used to work at E! (Don't judge.) so I felt obligated to compile this research.
 

EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENTS OF KRIS JENNER'S KIDS

* Kim K. went to Buckley School, which is one of the fancier private schools in L.A., and then to Marymount, a fancy girls Catholic school in West L.A., but no college that I can find

* Kourtney K. went to Marymount, graduated from U of Arizona.

* Khloe K. went to Marymount, but no college that I can find.

* Rob K. went to Buckley School and graduated with a business degree from USC.

* Kendall J. attended Sierra Canyon School in the Valley and then homeschooled, no college yet/so far.

* Kylie J. attended Sierra Canyon School in the Valley and then homeschooled via Laurel Springs, no college yet/so far.

[Guest]

They are young and they have choices. Many, many young people have FAR less than they have, and I don't even mean materially, in spite of everything. They have a basic high school education every one of them, they are young, they are articulate, they have families. They have connections across the country through their show and if any one of them wanted to change their lives and move forward with almost any type of lifestyle they could do it.

 

Of course I'm sorry for many, many people around the world who didn't have what I had, you know, but my mom was a single mom with a high school education, a drug-addicted ex-husband, and living in a tiny town with NO money. And she managed, yes she did. She got help but she did it. We see people like that--ADD, abused, ASD, homeless, ex-cons, every day and they make it in spite of the odds.

 

They are choosing this lifestyle. If they believe it's god's will for them, oh well. But they cannot deny that they have a choice.

They do have options and many resources, yes. But resources are good only if you realize they are available to you. That is part of what is so insidious about that whole Gothhard lifestyle. There's so much learned helplessness that they may (and probably do) think most of their options are things they cannot do. I grew up under similar consitioning, though not HALF as extreme or extensive, but a lot of my late teens and early twenties were spent with NO concept of what was possible, what was available to me. I did not go to college at the time because it wasn't even on my radar screen as something I could do. I had nobody telling me there were ways to go and have it paid for; at one point, I was working for a law firm and could have had FULL tuition reimbursement, but I didn't even understand what a HUGE benefit that was and how ideal my position in life was to take advantage of that.

 

Anna Duggar has many resources also, but it "looks" like she is trapped and she probably does think she is trapped. (Said with the caveat that I have not been following anything about what Anna is doing or where they are with their marriage. I am going by what I expect from knowing too much about ATI.)

[gardenmom5]

They do have options and many resources, yes. But resources are good only if you realize they are available to you. That is part of what is so insidious about that whole Gothhard lifestyle. There's so much learned helplessness that they may (and probably do) think most of their options are things they cannot do. I grew up under similar consitioning, though not HALF as extreme or extensive, but a lot of my late teens and early twenties were spent with NO concept of what was possible, what was available to me. I did not go to college at the time because it wasn't even on my radar screen as something I could do. I had nobody telling me there were ways to go and have it paid for; at one point, I was working for a law firm and could have had FULL tuition reimbursement, but I didn't even understand what a HUGE benefit that was and how ideal my position in life was to take advantage of that.

 

Anna Duggar has many resources also, but it "looks" like she is trapped and she probably does think she is trapped. (Said with the caveat that I have not been following anything about what Anna is doing or where they are with their marriage. I am going by what I expect from knowing too much about ATI.)

 

this.

for those who didn't grow up being "taught" helplessness, you may not realize just how crippeling it is.  I'm not going to go into details with my "not as extreme as the duggars", but I eventually did break free from family influence. and there were repercussions.  it requires an entire paradigm shift.  it is breaking pavlovian training.  my satisfaction is in how much better things have been for my own children.

 

if the duggar children (this is for their boys too) were to go out into the world and get a real college education with real marketable skills (and incidently, but able to use those skills for some *real* good in the world) - they would be held accountable and treated as heretics. but first - they'd have to look at everything they have been taught and say - it's limiting my potential/wrong/and especially I-can-reject-this-training-and-still-be-a-christian.

 

[SproutMamaK]

Anna Duggar has many resources also, but it "looks" like she is trapped and she probably does think she is trapped. (Said with the caveat that I have not been following anything about what Anna is doing or where they are with their marriage. I am going by what I expect from knowing too much about ATI.)

 

A bit OT here, but have there been any public updates recently about Anna and the kids? Or even Josh, if he's returned home from rehab, etc? I'm actually kind of hoping there HASN'T been anything heard/known because she's been extricating herself from the publicity and getting out of there while Josh has been at "rehab", but I realize that's a long shot.

[Katy]

I stopped reading up on it, but I know I wasn't the only one around here who also regularly read freejinger.

[historically accurate]

A bit OT here, but have there been any public updates recently about Anna and the kids? Or even Josh, if he's returned home from rehab, etc? I'm actually kind of hoping there HASN'T been anything heard/known because she's been extricating herself from the publicity and getting out of there while Josh has been at "rehab", but I realize that's a long shot.

I live near the "rehab" center that Josh was in. He was released in Nov or Dec (several months before the required 6 month stay). Neither the Duggars or the center have said whether he was kicked out or he left voluntarily. 

[itsheresomewhere]

A bit OT here, but have there been any public updates recently about Anna and the kids? Or even Josh, if he's returned home from rehab, etc? I'm actually kind of hoping there HASN'T been anything heard/known because she's been extricating herself from the publicity and getting out of there while Josh has been at "rehab", but I realize that's a long shot.

Unless something has changed recently- Anna is living in the Duggars house. Her "bed" is in the girls dorm.

[kubiac]

http://www.duggarfamily.com/2016/1/a-statement-from-anna-duggar

 

Anna statement from January:

“Many have asked how I am doing. So many have asked that its actually humbling and touching. 2015 was the most difficult year of my life. Yet, amazingly I’ve found that in my own life crisis God has drawn near to me ("He’s near to the brokenhearted†Psalms 34:18) and my faith has been more precious to me than ever before. Just recently I visited Josh. It was an important step on a long difficult road. I want to thank all of you for your prayers and your messages of hope. I can never express how your kindness and prayers have brought encouragement when I needed it most—outpacing the grief and discouragement at every turn. I trust that God will continue to show His love and tenderness toward us and bring beauty from ashes—somehow—as only He can do. Please continue to pray for me, Josh and our children.â€

Edited February 27, 2016 by kubiac

[Guest]

this.

for those who didn't grow up being "taught" helplessness, you may not realize just how crippeling it is. I'm not going to go into details with my "not as extreme as the duggars", but I eventually did break free from family influence. and there were repercussions. it requires an entire paradigm shift. it is breaking pavlovian training. my satisfaction is in how much better things have been for my own children.

 

if the duggar children (this is for their boys too) were to go out into the world and get a real college education with real marketable skills (and incidently, but able to use those skills for some *real* good in the world) - they would be held accountable and treated as heretics. but first - they'd have to look at everything they have been taught and say - it's limiting my potential/wrong/and especially I-can-reject-this-training-and-still-be-a-christian.

 

EXACTLY.

[HS Mom in NC]

At what point does limiting our children to protect them from the big bad in the world become abuse?

 

When you're not also preparing them at developmentally and culturally appropriate levels to function independently and self sufficiently in the big bad world when they're young adults.

 

[gardenmom5]

I have to wonder if ditching Anna alone with the four kids, no job, forced to be completely dependent on her inlaws wasn't a way of trying to strike a complete and total fear of divorce while Josh went to "rehab". Someone said the therapy was at least six months?! How is she supposed to support her kids while she figures out life as a single mom? Talk about trapped.....I hope she hid whatever money she made from being on TV.

 

you're assuming she ever saw it . . .

[Annie G]

I live near the "rehab" center that Josh was in. He was released in Nov or Dec (several months before the required 6 month stay). Neither the Duggars or the center have said whether he was kicked out or he left voluntarily. 

 

Huh. I didn't know that.  Before the Duggars made their plane's flight plans private it was easy to know when they came in and out of Rockford, and I think it was still public at Thanksgiving. 

 

We saw a Reformers Unanimous van at Target in December and thought we might see him.  I'm shocked that RU has been able to keep him from being photographed. But I didn't know he was gone...I thought he was still there. 

[historically accurate]

Huh. I didn't know that.  Before the Duggars made their plane's flight plans private it was easy to know when they came in and out of Rockford, and I think it was still public at Thanksgiving. 

 

We saw a Reformers Unanimous van at Target in December and thought we might see him.  I'm shocked that RU has been able to keep him from being photographed. But I didn't know he was gone...I thought he was still there. 

 

It was in the news here, if I remember right the plane was here right before some big storm, but I haven't seen anything on national news about it. Maybe he is still here, but they have him in hiding/seclusion?

[Annie G]

It was in the news here, if I remember right the plane was here right before some big storm, but I haven't seen anything on national news about it. Maybe he is still here, but they have him in hiding/seclusion?

 

I get all my Duggar news from Free Jinger so I'm not claiming to have reliable info.g

 

Yeah, I do recall they flew out during a storm but I thought that was a stop to see him, as it was also the same day JD flew  a couple of family members to a political event in Milwaukee. So I guess I didn't realize they had room to pick up Josh.  

 

They might have started out following IBLP but I think Jim Bob is his own man and controls his family because HE wants to...I can't even blame it on Gothard.  I'd  rather have dinner with a Kardashian than a Duggar at this point!

[FaithManor]

I have to wonder if ditching Anna alone with the four kids, no job, forced to be completely dependent on her inlaws wasn't a way of trying to strike a complete and total fear of divorce while Josh went to "rehab". Someone said the therapy was at least six months?! How is she supposed to support her kids while she figures out life as a single mom? Talk about trapped.....I hope she hid whatever money she made from being on TV.

Do not count on her having any access to money. ATI teaches that women should have no money of their own and no assets. Everything is to be in the father/husband's name only so she cannot get uppity and leave. The men are taught that a woman will not be submissive if she has options and resources.

 

As for high school education? In ATI followers are taught that education for girls is bad as well. Parents are encouraged to not allow any high math, science, or history but they do encourage them to let the girls pursue English all the way through high school. Usually ACE paces are used with math endjng at 7th grade and science in 8th, but continuing with English and then the other subject is usually home economics, the introduction to music paces, and then Art lifepacs from Alpha Omega. My parents counseled many couples and adult singles who broke free from ATI families here in Michigan and without fail not a single female had been allowed a high school education. Most of them were not at a GED level. Part and parcel in this is that at around age 12 or 13 it is common practice for the young female to be required to take on the homeschooling of a much younger sibling. A part from the occasional girl who was allowed piano or violin lessons, outside tutors, online classes, and homeschooling co ops are discouraged as allowing the devil to have a foothold in the home.

 

While some families are undoubtedly more progressive than others, the Duggars were set up as the poster family for the sect. There is a good reason for that because one does not get into the inner circle of this organization without being a strict adherent.

 

I doubt that the adult girls are very academically advanced at all.