Hearing loss and 504 or IEP

[Storygirl]

My main question is... does a child with hearing aids automatically qualify for a 504?

 

I brought up the question of whether DS10 should be evaluated for a 504 or an IEP (I suspect some processing issues in addition to hearing loss, though not SLD) with his teacher, and she wants to try some in-class strategies first.

 

I'm trying to decide whether to agree to this or push to move ahead with evaluations. I think the strategies that she plans to try are good ones and may be helpful.

 

But I'm worried that if he does actually need the additional support from a 504 or IEP that it would be a disadvantage to put off the evaluations too long. His current teacher has had all of this school year to try to get to know him and figure him out, so she would have a lot of input and insight to offer during the evaluation process. With next year's teacher, we would be starting that gettting-to-know-him aspect all over again with new teachers.

 

If the hearing aids automatically qualify him for a 504, I can point that out as indication that there is no valid reason to delay getting the process started.

[Ravin]

A 504 would most likely do nothing other than make those in-class strategies well documented as something the child has a right to, which saves time trying to deal with  new teacher the next year resisting what works. You don't  need evaluations for a 504, either, just documentation of a medical condition. In your shoes, I would push for getting a 504 plan in place by the end of the school year.

[Crimson Wife]

Hearing loss is one of the qualifying conditions for an IEP. It's listed as a secondary condition on my DD's IEP with the autism as primary. The reason is because everyone involved in writing the updated IEP felt that listing hearing loss as primary might raise a red flag in the event of an outside review as to why her placement is not the district's dhh class. I'm not looking to pick a due process fight but I'm the type of parent that would hire a lawyer & stand up for DD's rights in court if I needed to. The district knows that and proceeds accordingly.

 

This is a good IEP checklist from Hands & Voices: http://www.handsandvoices.org/pdf/IEP_Checklist.pdf

 

Hands & Voices has a whole book on IEP's. I previewed it at the Kennedy Krieger neuropsych clinic and it looked really good but haven't acquired my own copy yet.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Crimson Wife

[Storygirl]

Here is some additional background information for those who don't mind wading through a long post: 

 

DS10 has recently been diagnosed with mild bilateral neurosensory hearing loss and is now wearing hearing aids in both ears. He is enrolled in a private school this year for the first time, having been homeschooled previously.

 

His teacher and I have discussed some of his difficulties in the classroom over the course of the year. These conversations have always been initiated by me, but after thinking over what I have to say for a day or two, she has always agreed with me.

 

In the fall, we talked about whether his trouble with following and/or understanding verbal directions (before wearing hearing aids would look around to see what the other children are doing) could be due to inattention or hearing/auditory issues. Although I had always wondered about auditory issues, seeing that he had trouble in the classroom and not just at home prompted us to get the audiology exam and the diagnosis (at home we sometimes attributed his lack of responsiveness to stubbornness :( ). Now that he has the hearing aids, he reports that it makes a big difference in the classroom. I asked him recently if it was a small, medium, or big difference, and he said BIG.

 

However, he is still having some of the same kind of behavior problems that made homeschooling difficult. He tends to shut down when he feels overwhelmed by a task or when he feels he is unable to grasp a concept or get things right. Sometimes he gets upset emotionally. Other times, he seems to grow stubborn and resistant; he either argues that he is actually right, or he refuses to listen or try the new way that is being suggested. It is hard to redirect him in this instances. He just gets to a point of emotional refusal, where he can't reset himself and try. To be honest, this is what led us to enroll him in school instead of continuing to homeschool; it was hard for me to teach him.

 

He has had two incidents at school this spring that his teacher has brought to my attention. Once he was emotional (not making a scene but just quietly upset) and she took him in the hall for a private talk; she didn't feel that she had success comforting him and getting him back on track to participate during the rest of class. The second time he kind of argued with her and gave her a bunch of excuses (some of them fabricated) about why he had not completed some of his work.

 

He gets especially overwhelmed when there is a lot of verbal information to process in a short time, for example during the presentation of new concepts or the explanation of a multi-step assignment. He also gets upset when he can't understand something the first time. His teacher says that she keeps reinforcing with him that she does not expect him to get everything right the first time. She agrees that he shuts down and has a difficult time being redirected.

 

I suspect he may have a low processing speed. Possibly an auditory processing problem (I plan to pursue this more with the audiologist). I think he has anxiety (he has sometimes pulled eyelashes out). His personality also contributes, because he is perfectionist who doesn't like to be wrong.

 

Unfortunately, I think that he has developed an emotional defensiveness over the years as he has tried to navigate the world with an undiagnosed hearing loss. I think that is in some ways a separate issue that we need to work on as a family -- we need to rebuild trust that has been lost -- but it contributes to his reactions and behaviors at school.

 

Anyway, he is a sweet boy, and I want to be sure to do the right thing for him. So I'm not sure whether to push for the evaluations now or agree that the school can take some more time to work with him first.

 

They want to try these things:

 

* The teacher will slow down when explaining things (he actually approached her on his own about this, saying that he thought he missed things when she talked fast), comfort him more and support him "as he tries to get his thoughts straight", and try to build his confidence.

 

* Give him "cool down" strategies, such as getting a drink of water, walking down the hall and back, stepping away from the task.

 

* Allow him to use a fidget toy when he needs to take a few minutes to get himself back on track.

 

* Have him write down his feelings when he is frustrated to try to get to the source of WHY (he has never been able to talk to me about why he gets upset).

 

* Move to another area of the room when his frustration is due to seeing other students "get it" before he does.

 

She says that she can implement all of these strategies without a 504.

 

They sound good. But if they don't work?? Or what if they do work, but next year's teachers aren't as understanding and interested in implementing things like this on their own?

 

Then we are left without an official written plan in place.

[Storygirl]

Thanks! I love that checklist, Crimson -- very helpful!

 

I know that hearing loss can qualify one for an IEP but also that there has to be a demonstrated educational need. In other words, if the student can do well in the classroom with the assistance of hearing aids, they may not qualify for needing the IEP. Our school values the teacher's input over the parent's (ugh). So if we as parents request the evaluations but the teacher says she doesn't think they are necessary, they will deny the request.

 

We've played this little game before. We walked into a meeting last fall with multiple documented diagnoses for two of our other children, and the school denied proceeding with evaluations until the classroom teachers could offer "data" that supported the need for evaluations. It was infuriating. So I'm feeling cautious now and want to try to get the teacher on my side first. If she actually requested the evaluations instead of me, that would be ideal, because her word is given more weight.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Storygirl

[Crimson Wife]

He should have an FM system that includes a microphone the teacher wears and "audio boots" that plug into the battery compartment of his hearing aids. That will always keep her voice sufficiently above any background noise.The new Phonak Roger digital FM has been shown to be superior than the older analog ones if an FM system needs to be purchased rather than just dug out of a closet: http://www.phonak.com/com/b2c/en/products/wireless-accessories/in-class.html

 

Instructions should be written on a whiteboard/blackboard rather than given orally whenever possible, especially for multi-step ones.

 

Even if his speech appears fine, he may benefit from sessions with a speech & language pathologist who has experience working with the dhh to focus on what are called "conversational repair skills". Basically these are strategies that a dhh person can use during spoken interactions when he/she is having difficulty following along. This type of SLP services would fall under pragmatic language use in an IEP.

[Crimson Wife]

I don't know about private schools, but public schools get extra money for "low-incidence disabilities" including hearing loss. That can be used to buy specialized equipment like FM systems. The student has to have an IEP rather than a 504 however.

[Storygirl]

I've been wondering about an FM system and whether it would be a good addition to his hearing aids. He has an appointment at the audiology clinic on Wednesday. I'll ask them some more questions about that and also about auditory processing screening. They did say initially that hearing loss and processing issues can go hand in hand, but we've been addressing the hearing loss piece of things first. I need to ask them some more questions about possible additional APD screenings.

[1shortmomto4]

There needs to be an IEP, there needs to be a set of interventions that are written that are to be implemented to help this child succeed in that classroom.  I wouldn't be using the school to diagnose any further processing issues/LDs because they are not qualified.  This just adds more stress to a young man that is already stressed.  Those ideas are fine and dandy but there is so much more that needs to happen.  He needs preferential seating in the classroom - sometimes what is best is the front row but off to the side.  If they work in groups he needs to be able to take the group to a more quiet location.  Teacher must NEVER face the board when explaining things - face forward and preferably at him.  Also, equipment that teacher could wear (IMF something or other - can't remember the name) that runs right into the hearing aides does wonders!  Also, teacher needs to provide something written for instructions - not dependent on hoping he catches it all.  No, written - on the board or even a handout prepared especially for him.  He just might benefit from a note taker or some type of note taking technology because he's so busy processing what teacher is saying that by the time it reaches his brain to write the teacher has moved on.  He qualifies for a quiet place to take a test or even longer time to take the test because it takes longer to process the information - even just reading it.

 

The cool down stuff is all fine and dandy but he's getting upset and frustrated because of the class set up (oh, and don't have him sit next to the classroom chatterbox ;-))  and trying to process all of the information.  The biggest hurdle that my ds deals with on a regular basis - even today at 22 - is the impatience others have when having a conversation with him.  They need time to process and formulate an answer.  They don't want to say the wrong thing and fear the retribution that kids (and adults) dole out.  It goes along way in educating those around him what his needs are, how he processes the information and the time needed.  You need to educate people that hearing aids don't work like eye glasses.  You don't get full, regular hearing abilities with hearing aids like you do when you wear glasses and suddenly can see the world. 

 

When they reach college-age these are just a few of the things on my ds's MOA - which is the PS's version of an IEP.   He's entitled to these accommodations and others under the ADA.  Don't let the school try to tell you otherwise. 

 

As for the anger issues - you might want to look into the ADHD - without the hyper.  My ds is moody and some days the only thing that works is a sunny day! and physical activity.

 

He most likely has processing issues and it will be hard to get a full DX because he's already straddled with the hearing impairment DX.  My adult son went through the testing but there is just some stuff that the testing is ineffective because you can't differentiate because of the hearing loss.

 

Oh, and do make sure any instructor he has (say he goes to an art or music or PE) all understand what his needs are and to accommodate.

 

You just got me started on this one.....

 

 

[Storygirl]

I should look into our local resources for the deaf. There is a school for the deaf here. According to their website (which I just checked for the first time), they will conduce multi-factored evaluations for any student in the state who is deaf or hard of hearing and write an evaluation team report to present to the student's school. At no cost.

 

That actually sounds awesome. I think they would do a better job with the MFE than the team at our current school, because they would understand all of the needs of a hard of hearing child.

[Crimson Wife]

Be forewarned that depending on his hearing loss he may not be able to undergo CAPD testing. I don't know enough about the specific requirements for getting valid results, but the audiologist in my area considered the CAPD expert said that my DD's physical hearing ability is too impaired to do CAPD testing. She said that CAPD and SNHL can co-exist but she doesn't have a way to tease them apart.

 

She recommended using the eASE CD's for at-home auditory integration training (she said to only get #1 and #2 rather than the full set) but I haven't yet tried them: http://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Stimulation-Therapeutic-Sensory-Listening/dp/B0036VAULO

[Storygirl]

Heidi, thank you so much for that! And the rest of you! It's really helpful to hear other parents say, "yes an IEP is needed."

 

I tend to second guess myself, because

1) his hearing loss is "mild" :glare: (making a face at myself, because I do know that "mild" does not mean it will only have an incidental effect)

2) and because his hearing aids are new (has just had them a few weeks) and we kind of hoped that they would just turn things around for him in a way that they have not yet done.

 

Also, we are just nearing the end of the IEP process for two of our other children, and the thought of starting it up again for another child just makes me feel :willy_nilly: . That won't keep me from proceeding, but I'm just not looking forward to it.

 

I do think that ADHD inattention could also be at play. It's hard to tell. He does not have problems with EF at all. And he is not at all like his brother, who has ADHD combined, or his sister, who may be ADHD inattentive.

 

Ugh. That sounds overwhelming to write out that 3 of my 4 kids could have some sort of ADHD. But it not even close to being our whole list of learning issues. No wonder homeschooling was hard.

[Crimson Wife]

I should look into our local resources for the deaf. There is a school for the deaf here. According to their website (which I just checked for the first time), they will conduce multi-factored evaluations for any student in the state who is deaf or hard of hearing and write an evaluation team report to present to the student's school. At no cost.

 

That actually sounds awesome. I think they would do a better job with the MFE than the team at our current school, because they would understand all of the needs of a hard of hearing child.

 

Yes, this is a really good idea.

 

Just be aware that most state schools for the Deaf (and I'm deliberately using a capital D) have a bias that Deaf children should attend separate schools that promote ASL rather than being mainstreamed with typically hearing peers. It's the whole "Deafness is a culture rather than a disability" POV. So take their report with a grain of salt knowing that is what their bias is.

[Crimson Wife]

I tend to second guess myself, because

1) his hearing loss is "mild" :glare: (making a face at myself, because I do know that "mild" does not mean it will only have an incidental effect)

 

It's ironic but I just read a whole section in my audiology textbook the other day talking about how the author feels that the labels "mild" or "minimal" for a HL of 21 to 40 dB does patients a disservice because it can leave the impression that it's no big deal.

 

When you have the time, this is a good presentation on how "mild" HL in children can have a serious impact: http://www.mdaap.org/EHDISlideShowMildHearingLoss.pdf

 

I heard Dr. Tharpe speak last fall at the American Cochlear Implant Alliance symposium and she's awesome. If I am lucky enough to get into grad school at Vanderbilt I definitely would be interested in taking classes and/or participating in research with her.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Crimson Wife

[Storygirl]

Let me ask you this.

 

DH contacted the School for the Deaf. They have a waiting list for their multi-factored evaluations; all the spring slots are booked, and they are making appointments for the fall. The request also has to come from the local school district, not the parents.

 

Would you proceed with requesting evaluations and an IEP from the local school district, so that something could be in place by the end of this school year? Or do you think that getting an MFE from the School for the Deaf would be beneficial enough to wait for it?

 

My first thought is ...Don't wait. Getting an IEP in place sooner is better.

My second thought is ...It's worth waiting in order to get the best advice; we have to think of what is best in the long term.

My third thought is...The school that we work with for evaluations is not always cooperative, and they may not agree to having an outside entity do the MFE anyway.

 

 

[1shortmomto4]

You know I don't know anything about IEP or 504 but what I find odd is that your audiologist would not have provided the written requirements to meet your ds' needs.  They write up a DX and then a letter that typically spells out every possible accommodation the child could need to succeed in the classroom.  They tend to put way more than needed because it is far easier to not use the accommodation than to go back to the Dr. office, get a new letter and start from scratch.  I just can't accept that more can't be done ASAP under the ADA rules.  Have you asked your audiologist for help in getting better accommodations in place versus playing the waiting game or the 'teacher knows best' game because they don't know best.  Chances are most have never seen or dealt with a child that is hearing impaired and they truly have no clue and frankly should be asking YOU how to help him.  I'm not sure that I'd be waiting on some list.  The deaf schools deal with children that are profoundly deaf and Crimson is right - focus more on getting child enrolled in their school and ASL.  These kiddos with this type of hearing loss need the accommodations in the classroom and whether or not there was CAPD wouldn't really matter because you do pretty much the same thing in helping these kids.  The more I think about this the more it reminds me of what the disability coordinator said at the community college level - the bigger the institution the less they do - despite ADA.  The PS system is really big so guess they don't do much.  Argh!!!!! 

 

Just remember that your little guy is going to be beat by the end of school days.  It is exhausting processing all day.  His anger comes from exhaustion much of the time.  My ds, who is in college, started out with only 12 credits because it was so tiring in lectures and even now he keeps his days short because it takes so much out of him to take in all the info and figuring out what to do with it.

 

Just remember - as I said before - hearing aids are not eye glasses.  They are not the magical cure-all.  Many people don't realize that.  They just assume that the person is hearing everything or better yet - the ones who come up behind the person with aids and speaks down into the aide figuring that makes the person hear better.  Gotta love that one!!!  See, this is just a little of what your child experiences each day.  People truly don't understand.  Heck, my dh didn't understand for a few years until I drilled it into his head that our ds was indeed listening to us and not practicing selective hearing.

[kbutton]

Now that it's been said, I am also wondering about the audiology report and the recommendations. I know others who had evals at the same place (but for CAPD) and came out with a boatload of documentation. We used SLP testing to shore up that my son's CAPD was causing issues with his language, and we were able (with a lot of pushing of the school by the SLP and the SN coordinator) to get CAPD to count under OHI minor. Surely actually hearing loss should be able to get the same or better accommodations and therapies. One big problem my son has had is multi=tasking--listening and writing, listening and executing directions, listening + anything. And PE types of stuff (even at church activities or in homeschool gym and swim) were atrocious--get him somewhere with echoes, and he hears nothing.

[City Mouse]

There is nothing that "automatically" qualifies a student for an iep or 504, but a hearing loss is likely to qualify. I

However, depending on your state's rules, 504 plans and/or ieps are for public school students. Private schools are not held to the same standards as public school for providing accommodations and services.

In a public school, the teacher would be required to attempt the in class support before the school can peruse an evaluation. If you want to bypass that process, you would need to request the evaluation in writing.

[Storygirl]

Thanks, City Mouse! Although we attend a private school, they follow the same protocol for 504 plans and IEPs as the public school. I know they wouldn't have to -- there were several private schools that we looked into that just plain didn't do IEPs. We picked this school specifically because we knew they would work with us on the IEP issue, because of all of the disabilities we have among our kids.

 

We will probably make the request in writing ourselves (we just did this process for two of our other kids), but I'm hoping to get the teacher to do it instead. Having been through it just this fall, I know that they are more willing to listen to the teachers than the parents, so if the teacher makes the request, it may speed things along a little. But we very well may end up officially requesting the evaluations ourselves! Again.

[Storygirl]

Heidi and kbutton, you have some really good points. Both the classroom teacher and the lead intervention teacher at our school are very young, and I think it's likely they have not dealt with a student with this kind of hearing loss before. We haven't gotten a list of suggested accommodations from the audiologist yet, but we are really early in this process with them. The audiology clinic plans to work with us on finding the best help for him; they say that they will be seeing us a lot over the next few months. They are a university clinic, not a private practice.

 

I'm sure they can give us a list of accommodations to bring to the school. I'll ask at our appointment on Wednesday. I think it will be important for the school to see that their suggested ways to help don't measure up to the kind of accommodations that he actually needs.

 

I'm guessing the teachers are thinking of the hearing aids as more like eyeglasses -- you put them on, and they fix the problem. They need to be better informed!

[imagine.more]

You know I don't know anything about IEP or 504 but what I find odd is that your audiologist would not have provided the written requirements to meet your ds' needs. They write up a DX and then a letter that typically spells out every possible accommodation the child could need to succeed in the classroom. They tend to put way more than needed because it is far easier to not use the accommodation than to go back to the Dr. office, get a new letter and start from scratch. I just can't accept that more can't be done ASAP under the ADA rules. Have you asked your audiologist for help in getting better accommodations in place versus playing the waiting game or the 'teacher knows best' game because they don't know best. Chances are most have never seen or dealt with a child that is hearing impaired and they truly have no clue and frankly should be asking YOU how to help him. I'm not sure that I'd be waiting on some list. The deaf schools deal with children that are profoundly deaf and Crimson is right - focus more on getting child enrolled in their school and ASL. These kiddos with this type of hearing loss need the accommodations in the classroom and whether or not there was CAPD wouldn't really matter because you do pretty much the same thing in helping these kids. The more I think about this the more it reminds me of what the disability coordinator said at the community college level - the bigger the institution the less they do - despite ADA. The PS system is really big so guess they don't do much. Argh!!!!!

 

Just remember that your little guy is going to be beat by the end of school days. It is exhausting processing all day. His anger comes from exhaustion much of the time. My ds, who is in college, started out with only 12 credits because it was so tiring in lectures and even now he keeps his days short because it takes so much out of him to take in all the info and figuring out what to do with it.

 

Just remember - as I said before - hearing aids are not eye glasses. They are not the magical cure-all. Many people don't realize that. They just assume that the person is hearing everything or better yet - the ones who come up behind the person with aids and speaks down into the aide figuring that makes the person hear better. Gotta love that one!!! See, this is just a little of what your child experiences each day. People truly don't understand. Heck, my dh didn't understand for a few years until I drilled it into his head that our ds was indeed listening to us and not practicing selective hearing.

Yes to all of the above! We're still trying to fully grasp DD's hearing impairment and what it means for her and us.

 

As for school yes I would definitely get everything written into the formal IEP/504. This teacher may be cooperative but next year's might not, and for testing situations you want accommodations in place beforehand.

 

For the classroom definitely ask for an FM system, he can use it for in-class lectures as well as computer tasks because it should be able to hook directly into the computer's speaker.

 

Also, does he have any hearing therapy? DD had several years of hearing therapy at school to learn how to use and care for her hearing aids and to differentiate sounds better because like the previous poster said, hearing aids aren't quite like glasses.

 

At home I suggest making closed captioning on the tv your default mode. Now that DD can read it's amazing how much more she picks up with CC on. And try to train yourself, and his teachers to never talk to him if you are in a different room or not facing him. He can also be guided in productive and positive ways to advocate for himself. DD used to break down into dramatic tears and "I don't get it!" when she was overwhelmed. With lots of practice she now says "could you repeat that?" Or "i don't understand" ...which makes life more pleasant for us and will get her a more positive response in life ;)

 

I know there are a lot of moving parts to figure out but you will, you have time. The hearing aids will help a lot, they just don't get rid of the fact that he is hard of hearing. He's going to approach the world a bit differently because of that and that's okay.

[Storygirl]

I haven't heard of hearing therapy yet. Was this done with an SLP or by an audiologist or someone else? The university clinic said they will be working with him for a considerable time, but I'm thinking it will be months, not years. So far he has only had one appointment since starting to wear the HA, so I'm not certain about all that they can and will do. Our private school does contract with an SLP, so he should be able to get appropriate services under them with an IEP, if he qualifies for that, but anything else we would have to pursue ourselves. I think the university clinic will be really helpful, but we shall see!

 

I do think that working with an SLP on communication, as Crimson mentioned, would be helpful to him. He's going to need to learn how to advocate for himself and address communication problems as they arise. Right now, I think he really has no skill in that area. Up until now, he had no awareness that he was not hearing well and never complained of hearing problems. I think he has likely had the hearing loss his entire life and has never known that others hear differently.

 

He is getting some instruction from the clinic on caring for his hearing aids. Actually, right now he is wearing loaners that belong to the clinic. Once everyone is certain that he has what he needs, we will purchase some for him.

 

I sent the teacher an email today just saying that we think that it is worthwhile to implement the strategies she is suggesting as a first step, but that we have things to consider and discuss before responding to the school's proposal that official evaluations be postponed. Although I drafted an email explaining why we don't want to wait, I may hold off sending it until after I talk to the audiologist on Wednesday to get their suggestions.

[Tiramisu]

Perhaps this will help. http://www.etown.edu/offices/disability/teachingtipsforstudentshardofhearing.aspx

 

My dd has CAPD and the disability director at her college has mentioned to me that the kids who have hearing-related problems are the most exhausted when she sees them at the end of the day. That comment always stuck with me when I think about how much it must take out of person to live with a hearing issues in this world.

 

Obviously, the teachers don't understand and I hope it help when you get the audiology report.

 

I think our audiology report was nearly as long as the np report. Dd does have lower hearing in one ear, but it was okay to meet the level of hearing necessary to proceed with the CAPD evaluation. At the children's hospital where we go, a thorough hearing eval is required before the CAPD eval is scheduled.

[1shortmomto4]

I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is why the school has any say in who, when, what on the evaluations being done or NOT.  He is being seen by an audiologist.  Did he undergo MRI through ENT or other specialist?  ENT (or Docs overseeing audiologists) write up a report on the official diagnosis and Audiologists work on getting the best results from the HA and appropriate accommodations for the school environment.  I did look up Title III which is where the coverage is required at the private school level.  Help for him is covered under that.  I'm not sure why a health/medically related DX is something a school seems they need to DX themselves.  That is not their job.  That is not their expertise.  A child with a diabetic or heart condition does not get a diagnosis from the school but there are accommodations needed for them.  Visually-impaired students are not diagnosed through the school.  If I'm understanding this then suppose a child in a wheelchair shows up and the school is going to require an evaluation to see whether the child can have accommodations met so he can navigate the school?  I'm just having a hard time understanding the process here.  Yes, there are most likely learning issues related to the hearing loss but those same accommodations (and more) are provided with the loss diagnosis.  I'd be inclined to the ask the teacher and the school how many hearing impaired students they've worked with over the years.  There has got to be someone out there that can cut this long, drawn out process off at the quick and get this child up and running now versus months down the road.  I'm guessing that audiologist is going to be your magic ticket - at least hoping or at the minimum they'd know who to contact to help.

 

In reality the teacher doesn't have a right to know what is wrong with the child other than he needs X Y and Z to succeed in the classrooms under patient confidentiality - or is this right only afforded to adults?

 

 

 

 

[City Mouse]

I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is why the school has any say in who, when, what on the evaluations being done or NOT. He is being seen by an audiologist. Did he undergo MRI through ENT or other specialist? ENT (or Docs overseeing audiologists) write up a report on the official diagnosis and Audiologists work on getting the best results from the HA and appropriate accommodations for the school environment. I did look up Title III which is where the coverage is required at the private school level. Help for him is covered under that. I'm not sure why a health/medically related DX is something a school seems they need to DX themselves. That is not their job. That is not their expertise. A child with a diabetic or heart condition does not get a diagnosis from the school but there are accommodations needed for them. Visually-impaired students are not diagnosed through the school. If I'm understanding this then suppose a child in a wheelchair shows up and the school is going to require an evaluation to see whether the child can have accommodations met so he can navigate the school? I'm just having a hard time understanding the process here. Yes, there are most likely learning issues related to the hearing loss but those same accommodations (and more) are provided with the loss diagnosis. I'd be inclined to the ask the teacher and the school how many hearing impaired students they've worked with over the years. There has got to be someone out there that can cut this long, drawn out process off at the quick and get this child up and running now versus months down the road. I'm guessing that audiologist is going to be your magic ticket - at least hoping or at the minimum they'd know who to contact to help.

 

In reality the teacher doesn't have a right to know what is wrong with the child other than he needs X Y and Z to succeed in the classrooms under patient confidentiality - or is this right only afforded to adults?

The medical stuff diagnoses the physical or medical condition, but for an iep, the school must show an "educational need". That is where a school based evaluation comes in even for a student who is blind, deaf, or in a wheel chair. From an educational perspective, doctor's recomendation are considered, but are not required to be followed (talking educational recommendations not medical). As part of an iep, the classroom teacher does have the right to know everything that is a part of the iep including medical information. That information is supposed to be kept secure and not shared with other people who do not need to know.

[1shortmomto4]

Okay that explains the IEP but what about a 504?  What is that?  What is the difference?  Just asking. 

 

My ds attended PS from k-most of 4th.  They'd find problems that they'd "evaluate" but would ultimately decide that he wasn't bad enough for services.  Unbeknownst to them my ds was hearing impaired for years but no one caught it - not even the Peds but that is another story all itself.  So my confidence in a school's pool of experts they draw from in providing their expert recommendations to help the student is not a good one and I live in an affluent part of the country that supposedly helps many kids.  My ds was unable to read halfway through 4th and they said it was because he wasn't taking school seriously.  Once I had him independently tested to show the gaping hole in his reading abilities I was informed that they had no services to help him unless he were an ESL student.  But this was many moons ago so perhaps things have changed.

 

I just think that certain diagnosis require a standard set of accommodations and when you provide documentation that they have this medical issue no questions asked.  Implement them and if you want to sort out other accommodations as you go along then work it out but the only person losing in this current set up is that child and that is where the damage is being done - long term.

 

And at the college level - instructors do not have the right to know what the disability is unless the student shares.  The only information they receive is what accommodations are needed and to provide them - no questions asked.  And if the Professor denies or doesn't provide than the disability counselor steps in and takes care of it.

 

It just bothers me A LOT that this child is having to go through this each day and the parents are stuck trying to navigate the system that is not in their favor.

[Storygirl]

Yep, it's extremely frustrating. We walked into a school meeting last fall with piles of documented diagnoses for two of my other children, thinking that there was no question that they should be evaluated for possible IEPs.

 

We walked out of that meeting with an official notice that the school was denying the evaluations, because the school "did not have reason to suspect a disability." It was a very tense meeting. We were furious.

 

To "suspect a disability" our school requires "classroom data" from the teacher showing that there is an educational impact. Our other two children now have IEPs in progress, because after the TEACHERS agreed that it was necessary to evaluate, the school did agree to do it. The whole team has to agree that evaluations are need, and parents are only a small part of the team -- the teachers and school professionals are the rest of the team, and they must agree that evaluations are needed in order to proceed. Our school won't evaluate just because parents ask, even if there is an existing diagnosis.

 

In DS10's case, he not only has a diagnosis, but his teacher has agreed that he is having some troubles in class. To me, there is no question that evaluations are warranted. But if we walk into that meeting and the teachers say that they don't think he needs evaluations, because they have not tried all of their informal support techniques yet, the school will listen to the teachers. They just will. So I really want to get his teacher on board with understanding that this is important.

 

I shouldn't have to. And I can and will just submit an official request for evaluations myself without teacher support if necessary.

 

I think the audiologist's list of recommendations will help. I left a message at their office asking if they could have a written document ready for us to take home with us on Wednesday.

 

DS10 has his appointment with the ENT in about three weeks. We couldn't get an earlier appointment with the pediatric specialist. I'm sure that they will give us some documentation as well, but I don't want to until then before we request the evaluations. The school can take up to 120 days from first written request to completed IEP, and we are gettting close to having the process run over into the summer as it is.

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

 

At home I suggest making closed captioning on the tv your default mode. Now that DD can read it's amazing how much more she picks up with CC on.  

 

DD always asks me "to put the words on" (DH hates CC and always turns it off when he's watching). She can't read fluently enough yet for them to actually help but it's a good habit for her to get into.

[Crimson Wife]

Okay that explains the IEP but what about a 504?  What is that?  What is the difference?  Just asking.

 

A 504 provides for accommodations but does not give the family as many legal rights as an IEP does. Definitely fight for an IEP over a 504 for that reason. Wrightslaw has a good article explaining the basics of a 504: http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/sec504.index.htm

[Crimson Wife]

 

I do think that working with an SLP on communication, as Crimson mentioned, would be helpful to him. He's going to need to learn how to advocate for himself and address communication problems as they arise. Right now, I think he really has no skill in that area. Up until now, he had no awareness that he was not hearing well and never complained of hearing problems. I think he has likely had the hearing loss his entire life and has never known that others hear differently.

 

I think I've recommended this book on this forum before, but since it's relevant to this thread, I'll repeat it: Let's Converse: A How-to Guide to Develop and Expand Conversational Skills of Children and Teenagers Who are Hearing Impaired by Nancy Tye-Murray. It is OOP but worth trying to find a copy used.

[geodob]

Before IDEA, the aim of support for children with any Learning Disabilities?

Was limited to bringing children up to a basic grade level.

Nothing more than this, as they were viewed as having little potential.

 

But with the introduction of IDEA, this was turned around?

Where the aim was changed to providing support for children with Learning Disabilities, to enable them to realize their full potential.

 

So that evaluations are used to identify how they can be helped to realize their full potential.

Not simply to help them 'pass'!

[Heathermomster]

Story, does this private school actually have to comply with federal law?  Are they using your son's Ohio state scholarship money to aid him?  Will they have to back pay funds if you remove him?  Also, what's going to happen next year?  Are they going to deny an issue then as well?  School ends in about 3 months.  Is the next teacher going to futz about too or aid your DS straight out of the gate? And what would happen if you provided the radio system and asked the teacher to wear it, use it with your DS, and return it for next years teacher?  

Edited February 20, 2016 by Heathermomster

[FairProspects]

I agree. It seems to me there is a cost/benefit analysis that needs to happen here. The only reason we considered private school is because ours point blank accepted every recommendation from our neuropsych report and put them into practice immediately without any necessary formal plan or paperwork. The school's only request was that we have a neuropsych eval done for each level of schooling, elementary, middle, and high school, for updated recommendations. If I had to fight with a private school for accommodations/IEP just as much as a public school, and I was paying for the privilege, you better believe my kids wouldn't last long in that school. At what point is this whole process just not worth it and homeschooling becomes the better option again? Are there other schools that might be a better fit or that are easier to work with as parents?

Edited February 20, 2016 by FairProspects

[kbutton]

Before IDEA, the aim of support for children with any Learning Disabilities?

Was limited to bringing children up to a basic grade level.

Nothing more than this, as they were viewed as having little potential.

 

But with the introduction of IDEA, this was turned around?

Where the aim was changed to providing support for children with Learning Disabilities, to enable them to realize their full potential.

 

So that evaluations are used to identify how they can be helped to realize their full potential.

Not simply to help them 'pass'!

 

While that may be the intent, I don't think that's how it ends up working. At best, you have to fall two standard deviations from your potential. Truthfully, in many places, it's two standard deviations below the NORM, which may or may not be your potential. 

 

In some districts and for some kids/disabilities (combo of who they are and how their disability works out), it's nearly impossible to "prove" a negative educational impact because of the way the norms are defined. It almost requires someone on the ETR team to speak up on behalf of the parent and rally the troops, so to speak. Or hiring an advocate. 

[Paige]

While that may be the intent, I don't think that's how it ends up working. At best, you have to fall two standard deviations from your potential. Truthfully, in many places, it's two standard deviations below the NORM, which may or may not be your potential. 

 

In some districts and for some kids/disabilities (combo of who they are and how their disability works out), it's nearly impossible to "prove" a negative educational impact because of the way the norms are defined. It almost requires someone on the ETR team to speak up on behalf of the parent and rally the troops, so to speak. Or hiring an advocate. 

 

In our district it was 2 standard deviations below the outer end of the normal curve. So if the norm was a score of 2-6, with the average being a 4, and a SD of 1, (picture my parabola) you had to score a 0 before you were able to get help. Even if you were scoring in 8 in every other category...even if you were working super hard and struggling to get a 1 or 2; it didn't matter. 

[Storygirl]

Paige, that stinks!

 

Our school isn't that stringent. In fact, there was no mention at all of standard deviations during the evaluations for my other kids. They did all of the testing and computed the scores. But, for example, the school psych agreed to give our other son one of his SLDs based on his performance in the classroom, even though his testing didn't show the problems. Now, he was getting an IEP for sure anyway based on other things. If that would have been his only SLD, maybe things would have gone differently.

[Storygirl]

Story, does this private school actually have to comply with federal law?  Are they using your son's Ohio state scholarship money to aid him?  Will they have to back pay funds if you remove him?  Also, what's going to happen next year?  Are they going to deny an issue then as well?  School ends in about 3 months.  Is the next teacher going to futz about too or aid your DS straight out of the gate? And what would happen if you provided the AM system and asked the teacher to wear it, use it with your DS, and return it for next years teacher?  

 

This school chooses to comply with federal law, so that they can receive the scholarship money and have an intervention program. But technically under our state law, once we accept the scholarship, we as parents are responsible for making sure IEP goals are being addressed, and we can use an approved private school as a provider of services. Our school does take responsibility to meet all of the academic IEP goals, but I don't know if they would pay for the technology. A public school would have to provide the FM system if it were in the IEP, but so far I haven't been able to figure out if the private school would provide it. It could be an issue, because of the cost. The scholarship evidently will not cover the cost of equipment (too bad!).

 

We don't have any scholarship funds yet, but we will for next fall. So far we have only paid the regular tuition amount (even though our other two children have been receiving daily intervention). DS10 with the hearing issue has had only minor assistance from intervention this year so far, but now that he has this diagnosed hearing problem, it's clear to me that he needs more.

 

The scholarship application period ends in May, and the IEP has to be in place to apply for the scholarship, so to get the scholarship money for DS10 in the fall, we can't waste any time in getting evaluations started.

 

The scholarship funds are dispensed monthly, after they receive the bill from the school. So if a student withdraws, the school would not receive any further money but would not have to pay anything back.

 

We really want to have a written plan in place for DS before school starts again in the fall, so that is one of the points that we are planning to make with the teachers.

 

I agree. It seems to me there is a cost/benefit analysis that needs to happen here. The only reason we considered private school is because ours point blank accepted every recommendation from our neuropsych report and put them into practice immediately without any necessary formal plan or paperwork. The school's only request was that we have a neuropsych eval done for each level of schooling, elementary, middle, and high school, for updated recommendations. If I had to fight with a private school for accommodations/IEP just as much as a public school, and I was paying for the privilege, you better believe my kids wouldn't last long in that school. At what point is this whole process just not worth it and homeschooling becomes the better option again? Are there other schools that might be a better fit or that are easier to work with as parents?

 

I'll come back to this later. Gotta run!

[Heathermomster]

Sounds like you have answered your own question then. Your DS seems to need that radio system connected to his hearing aids. To me that is non-negotiable. Honestly, if your child were low vision, the school would not expect your child to squint harder while the teacher figured out how to teach better. Good luck.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Storygirl]

We'll ask the audiologist about their recommendations regarding an FM system when we are there next. I haven't brought it up with the school yet, so I don't know what they can or can't do about it. I'm sure we will find out! If he needs it and has it in his IEP, but the school can't provide it and isn't required to, we can purchase it ourselves for him to use. I'm certain that the schools would comply with the usage of the system in the classroom, even if they couldn't afford to buy it for him.

 

They do have good intentions there, even though sometimes we have to prod them on some things. The intervention team is just young. I mean, the lead interventionist looks like she is 25 to 27, and one of the other intervention teachers looks like she is 16. The third one is 30ish. They have all the proper special education certifications, etc., but they don't have a lot of experience yet, and they tend to want to rely on their usual box of tools -- small group pull outs and fidget toys. But when those things don't work and they are asked for more, they do try other things. Our neighbor is a sixth grader at this school but needs third grade math, and she is getting a private daily math class. So we know they can step up when needed.

 

They just don't understand his needs yet. Which is why he needs the evaluations :001_cool: .

 

 

[Storygirl]

I agree. It seems to me there is a cost/benefit analysis that needs to happen here. The only reason we considered private school is because ours point blank accepted every recommendation from our neuropsych report and put them into practice immediately without any necessary formal plan or paperwork. The school's only request was that we have a neuropsych eval done for each level of schooling, elementary, middle, and high school, for updated recommendations. If I had to fight with a private school for accommodations/IEP just as much as a public school, and I was paying for the privilege, you better believe my kids wouldn't last long in that school. At what point is this whole process just not worth it and homeschooling becomes the better option again? Are there other schools that might be a better fit or that are easier to work with as parents?

 

In our area, private schools that will admit students with learning disabilities are few and far between. Most just say upfront that they won't do it.

 

There is one school 10 minutes away that we seriously considered, because they claimed to be willing to work with LD students but did not work with the public school to develop IEPs. They had some intervention services that they billed extra for. But we did some research on what they offered and decided it was not right for our kids. And we really wanted them to have IEPs, because the IEP is the key to getting disability scholarship money here.

 

So we deliberately chose a school that works with the public school system to develop IEPs. It's a big pain. But there are reasons that it is worth it, even though we do already have NP diagnoses for two of our kids.

 

There are two other schools that we will probably check out for future years, but they are both 30 minutes away.

 

Homeschooling DS10 is not an option at this point. He was always homeschooled until this year. Without going into details, it became important for him to not have me as his teacher any more. Even though figuring out this intervention/IEP stuff is a pain, school has been a positive change for him. Which is good!

 

 

[1shortmomto4]

I did a quick search and under Title III private schools do need to provide the FM equipment.  Once the audiologist says he'd benefit from it then they need to provide it.  If you tell them that you'll get it then they are off the hook. 

 

I'm going to have to stay away from this thread but it makes me crazy.  This child has certain needs that frankly are not negotiable to just being in the classroom.  He needs the teacher to face him, write out instructions, preferential seating, etc.  There doesn't need to be a set of teachers or supervisors sitting around discussing what is best because the Drs. who made the diagnosis know what is best and what to try.  The school's job is to educate and they are to do it to the best of their abilities and meet the student's physical needs.  Physically this child needs some pretty bare minimum easy to implement protocols.  Nothing fancy. 

 

The FM equipment may or may not be a good fit.  My ds found it more annoying because the professor would wear it to far down around the neck so it was picking up "I didn't eat breakfast so my stomach is growling" sounds.  Eventually the professor was gently told to raise it up and things were better but over time my ds got more used to the lectures and no longer needed the technology.  Don't even get me started on when you have a teacher with any type of foreign accent - avoid, avoid, avoid!!!

 

I'm sorry that you are going through this.  We did find that homeschooling our ds ended up best for him.  Too much distraction and noise didn't allow him to learn very well but each child is different.

[kbutton]

Paige, that stinks!

 

Our school isn't that stringent. In fact, there was no mention at all of standard deviations during the evaluations for my other kids. They did all of the testing and computed the scores. But, for example, the school psych agreed to give our other son one of his SLDs based on his performance in the classroom, even though his testing didn't show the problems. Now, he was getting an IEP for sure anyway based on other things. If that would have been his only SLD, maybe things would have gone differently.

 

They are supposed to look for an overall pattern of strengths and weaknesses, but I am not sure that is convincing enough on its own without someone in the establishment taking up the cause. 

 

One of our kids qualified under social pragmatics. If he had not qualified under that, I am not sure they'd have cared a fig about his pattern of strengths and weaknesses. They did include some of that in the IEP anyway because he had already qualified. I am not sure it would have qualified him for an IEP. Ditto with kid #2, but his qualifying thing was outright speech therapy. We did manage to get it bumped to OHI minor to cover his CAPD. In both cases, a school district employee (or two) took up our cause, and then enough agreed to get the IEP.

[FairProspects]

In our area, private schools that will admit students with learning disabilities are few and far between. Most just say upfront that they won't do it.

 

There is one school 10 minutes away that we seriously considered, because they claimed to be willing to work with LD students but did not work with the public school to develop IEPs. They had some intervention services that they billed extra for. But we did some research on what they offered and decided it was not right for our kids. And we really wanted them to have IEPs, because the IEP is the key to getting disability scholarship money here.

 

So we deliberately chose a school that works with the public school system to develop IEPs. It's a big pain. But there are reasons that it is worth it, even though we do already have NP diagnoses for two of our kids.

 

There are two other schools that we will probably check out for future years, but they are both 30 minutes away.

 

Homeschooling DS10 is not an option at this point. He was always homeschooled until this year. Without going into details, it became important for him to not have me as his teacher any more. Even though figuring out this intervention/IEP stuff is a pain, school has been a positive change for him. Which is good!

 

It is great that school has been a positive change for him. I do get it because the homeschool to school situation is very similar for my ds, but I'm not sure how much the experience would sour for me if I constantly had to advocate with the school. That is just stressful and takes a toll on the whole family.

 

As far as this scholarship situation, that is so unique to Ohio that you may have to consider how much that is worth to you. I don't know how much you get from it, but would it be worth it to go with a school that does not do the PS IEPs but will just flat out give you the accommodations with no struggle? Time and energy are finite resources too, just different ones. ;) Just a thought. We drive far for our school too. It is 1 hr during rush hour even though the location is not far away by distance. It is so worth it to get the best experience for ds though.

Edited February 21, 2016 by FairProspects

[Storygirl]

There really isn't a school near here that would do the level of intervention that my kids need without going through the IEP process first.

 

I think there are some schools that would accept a student with diagnosed LDs who could succeed in the classroom just with some easily executed accommodations such as preferential seating. Basically, the student needs to be able to keep up with the normal classroom work, maybe with the help of some afterschool tutoring. My kids need more help than that.

 

The scholarship money is significant, which is great! The amount varies, depending on what the qualifying disability on the IEP is. The family does not get the money directly -- it goes to the school or service provider to pay for the intervention services outlined in the IEP.

 

 

 

 

[Storygirl]

I did a quick search and under Title III private schools do need to provide the FM equipment.  Once the audiologist says he'd benefit from it then they need to provide it.  If you tell them that you'll get it then they are off the hook. 

 

I'm going to have to stay away from this thread but it makes me crazy.  This child has certain needs that frankly are not negotiable to just being in the classroom.  He needs the teacher to face him, write out instructions, preferential seating, etc.  There doesn't need to be a set of teachers or supervisors sitting around discussing what is best because the Drs. who made the diagnosis know what is best and what to try.  The school's job is to educate and they are to do it to the best of their abilities and meet the student's physical needs.  Physically this child needs some pretty bare minimum easy to implement protocols.  Nothing fancy. 

 

The FM equipment may or may not be a good fit.  My ds found it more annoying because the professor would wear it to far down around the neck so it was picking up "I didn't eat breakfast so my stomach is growling" sounds.  Eventually the professor was gently told to raise it up and things were better but over time my ds got more used to the lectures and no longer needed the technology.  Don't even get me started on when you have a teacher with any type of foreign accent - avoid, avoid, avoid!!!

 

I'm sorry that you are going through this.  We did find that homeschooling our ds ended up best for him.  Too much distraction and noise didn't allow him to learn very well but each child is different.

 

I think the whole process is a big hassle. And going through it with my other kids was infuriating and heart-wrenching. It is a bunch of hoop jumping and red tape. But I can see that having these laws in place does offer some protection to the students that they didn't have before.

 

I can see how the FM system could be annoying at times! That's hilarious about the stomach growling :p!  Though an awkward and unfortunate problem to have to address!

[Storygirl]

From what I can tell, religious organizations do not have to comply with Title III.  Our school is affiliated with a church.

[Storygirl]

Here is what we have decided for now. We are going to wait until after we talk to the audiologist on Wednesday before broaching the subject of evaluations again with the teachers. I looked up our state department of education's guidelines on determining hearing loss for purposes of an IEP, and the numbers that the school must check to see if they qualify are listed right on the webpage. So I'm going to ask the audiologist to go over that with me. If his hearing loss is within the numbers listed on the guidelines, the teachers have absolutely no leg to stand on when suggesting we wait to evaluate.

 

I wrote a very long, very detailed, very informative email a couple of days ago, explaining to the classroom teacher and interventionist why we disagreed with their proposal to wait. But I didn't send it yet. DH and I have still been mulling things over.

 

BUT -- They can't argue with the numbers, so if he meets the dept of ed guidelines for determining hearing impairment, I can greatly simplify the email and cut out all of the persuasive stuff I put in there. It may just be a black and white numerical issue.

 

That doesn't mean he would automatically get an IEP -- we would still have to go through the process. But it should be a no brainer that the school has to evaluate.

 

 

[Storygirl]

I'm just going to update, and then I'm going to start a new thread with some new questions related to what we learned today.

 

The audiologist said his hearing loss was not great enough to meet the standard required for a hearing impairment diagnosis on an IEP but said that the hearing loss coupled with having trouble in the classroom merited asking the school to evaluate him (in her opinion). This was after I described some of the frustration he has been exhibiting.

 

I brought up the issue of auditory processing. She said that unless there is a certain level of hearing, the auditory processing tests do not produce data accurate enough to know for sure if there is a processing issue in addition to the hearing issue. However, given our concerns, she said she would run a few auditory processing screenings this morning.

 

Overall, he did well on that, but there were a few areas of trouble. She is going to consult with their auditory processing expert to see if she thinks he could be a candidate for a more thorough screening and get back to me.

 

She did not think he needed an FM system at this time. She said that his hearing loss is borderline for even needing hearing aids and that many audiologists would not have seen the need to try them. In fact, she wants him to have a period now of NOT using them. She wants to find out whether he misses them and feels he needs them. If he finds he is really bothered by not having them on, he can start wearing them again before his next appointment. It is a little experiment, but it is to be led by him. (There is a reason she wants to try this -- it's not a random idea).

 

I have to mull over what this means for requesting evaluations. There are still a lot of questions about his hearing loss that remain to be answered. I'm thinking over whether it may be better for us to wait on evaluations until we have more info to provide. I don't want to confuse the issue by saying that he needs to be evaluated due to hearing loss, while at the same time his audiologist is experimenting to see if he can function well enough without hearing aids. I think that would cast some doubt in the minds of the evaluation team.

 

She did give me a list of suggested accommodations. I know our principal mentioned last year that she is able to write a 504 plan without doing full evaluations first. Perhaps we should talk with the principal and intervention team about putting a 504 in place now and leaving a window open to decide about evaluations a little later.

 

I think we should aim to have a 504 plan (at least) in place by the end of this year, so that there is a continuity of accommodations when he has a new teacher next year. This year's teacher is very kind and helpful and has a lot of ideas that she is willing to implement to make things go well for DS10. The fifth grade teachers are less like that (my older son is in fifth grade this year, so we know what it is like to work with them -- they are kind but less accommodating). I don't want the level of help he gets to vary depending on whose classroom he is in, so I think we need a written plan that everyone has to use.

 

We will see how it goes. I thought I might come away from today's meeting with some clear answers, but instead additional questions were raised. Which always seems to happen. I should expect that by now.