Would love feedback on U Penn and Princeton

[quark]

1. We are looking at the possibility of relocating and Philadelphia is one of the areas where DH thinks he has good job prospects.
2. I'd love to know more about the 2 campuses in the title. Anything at all in addition to academics, e.g. climate/ environment, student life, I'm drawing a blank on what else but please hit me with what you have.
3. Would also love to know about housing prices in general (Horsham? Trenton? -- eta: struck out due to crime stats -- I'm just throwing out place names from Google Maps lol). Mid-range neighborhoods that will be decently safe to settle into.

DS is not married to the idea of an Ivy but his personality/ interests indicate that a research uni will fit him best (and yes, I'm running the NPCs...ack). He is a fan of mathematicians from Princeton and if DH's work takes us to Philly it is very likely that DS will want to be as close as possible to home (his words) so that's another reason to think about U Penn and Princeton (am I missing other potential uni candidates?)

 

I'd also love to chat privately with anyone who has DCs in these campuses.

 

Thanks!

 

Edited to remove TMI!

 

 

Edited January 15, 2016 by quark

[raptor_dad]

Swarthmore is also right there and is a top 10 LAC with a highly regarded math dept. 

[Cosmos]

The only thing I know about U Penn is from visiting as a tourist. It has the most drop-dead gorgeous campus I have ever seen. At least some sections are incredible old buildings and ancient trees with pedestrian paths winding through it all. I wanted to drop my sightseeing and find a library to curl up and study in. Just beautiful. A little oasis in the middle of a big city.

[quark]

Swarthmore is also right there and is a top 10 LAC with a highly regarded math dept. 

Thank you raptor_dad. Will add to research list!

 

The only thing I know about U Penn is from visiting as a tourist. It has the most drop-dead gorgeous campus I have ever seen. At least some sections are incredible old buildings and ancient trees with pedestrian paths winding through it all. I wanted to drop my sightseeing and find a library to curl up and study in. Just beautiful. A little oasis in the middle of a big city.

Oh wow. I am already visualizing it. If I tell DS this he'll want to apply for sure. :laugh: Thank you Cosmos!

[JennW in SoCal]

Swarthmore also has an excellent music program.  A friend's son just graduated from there with a degree in PoliSci, and he loved playing trombone in the jazz ensemble all 4 years. 

 

I'm partial to smaller liberal arts colleges, and not just because that is what my own son chose! I think the environment at a smaller LAC is better for a quirky and intelligent young person. The student body is close knit, and more accepting, and the relationships with the faculty are more nurturing. My friends who went to Princeton talk about their undergrad years almost like it was a battle they survived. Another friend's daughter just graduated from Princeton, but this girl has always been a competitive go-getter. Her sister who has a more gentle, artist's soul chose a small LAC.

 

 

[quark]

Swarthmore also has an excellent music program.  A friend's son just graduated from there with a degree in PoliSci, and he loved playing trombone in the jazz ensemble all 4 years. 

 

I'm partial to smaller liberal arts colleges, and not just because that is what my own son chose! I think the environment at a smaller LAC is better for a quirky and intelligent young person. The student body is close knit, and more accepting, and the relationships with the faculty are more nurturing. My friends who went to Princeton talk about their undergrad years almost like it was a battle they survived. Another friend's daughter just graduated from Princeton, but this girl has always been a competitive go-getter. Her sister who has a more gentle, artist's soul chose a small LAC.

 

Thank you Jenn! Definitely researching Swarthmore. The googled images of the campus...so beautiful!

 

[fdrinca]

DH taught at Swarthmore for three years. It is an amazing school. Definitely keep it on your list. 

 

That area (outside of Philadelphia) would be a great place to raise a family. I might be biased :)

[quark]

DH taught at Swarthmore for three years. It is an amazing school. Definitely keep it on your list. 

 

That area (outside of Philadelphia) would be a great place to raise a family. I might be biased :)

 

Thank you! :laugh:  The more I look at Swarthmore, the more I like it.

 

From their Standardized Testing Policy:

 

Applicants are required to submit either the SAT or the ACT. We do not require the optional Essay section of the SAT or the optional Writing section of the ACT.  If submitted, scores from those sections will not be considered in our application review.

 

That bold part is music to my ears. :laugh:

[fdrinca]

Thank you! :laugh:  The more I look at Swarthmore, the more I like it.

 

From their Standardized Testing Policy:

 

 

That bold part is music to my ears. :laugh:

 

DH taught in the math department. He says that it doesn't compare to Penn or Princeton in terms of professors doing active research (numbers, types of research, productivity), but that it would be a great place to prepare a student for graduate work.

 

A benefit of the school vis-a-vis the universities you mention is that, with no graduate population, undergrads have more research opportunities.

[Gwen in VA]

All of these are basically lottery schools. No matter how awesome your son is, do have him apply to other schools.

 

He should apply to at least one school with an acceptance rate of 30% no matter how stellar his achievements. College admissions are peculiar.

 

My favorite example -- there are two top-20 LAC's that are quite similar -- similar student stats, similar environments, similar rankings, similar location, etc. Dd1 got a full-ride merit scholarship to one and didn't even get in at the other. REALLY? We were dumbfounded, but that's the vagaries of college admissions.

[chiguirre]

I'm partial to smaller liberal arts colleges, and not just because that is what my own son chose! I think the environment at a smaller LAC is better for a quirky and intelligent young person. The student body is close knit, and more accepting, and the relationships with the faculty are more nurturing. My friends who went to Princeton talk about their undergrad years almost like it was a battle they survived. Another friend's daughter just graduated from Princeton, but this girl has always been a competitive go-getter. Her sister who has a more gentle, artist's soul chose a small LAC.

 

I went to Wharton undergrad at Penn. I can sort of relate to the competitive aspect. Penn is dominated by preprofessional students. Wharton does tend to color the student experience of the whole university because so many students are either already in Wharton or trying to transfer or majoring in Econ because they couldn't manage to transfer. Even among those who are not interested in studying business, most students are headed to professional schools and someone who isn't might feel like a fish out of water.

 

(Take this with a grain of salt because I graduated 25 years ago and things do change. Plus, I studied business so I have no clue about the Math department which I got the heck out of after my required Calc credits.  Penn has been steadily climbing the college rankings, although I suspect that's because the practical bent of the school made them focus on maximizing the variables that USNWR measures more than actually changing the school. This isn't a criticism, it just shows that Penn is a results oriented type of place.)

[HodgesSchool]

Philadelphia is a wonderful city! 

 

Penn and Princeton have very different feels.  Personally, I like Penn's open, more urban campus--but my husband prefers Princeton's quieter gated-off feel.  Let your son see both and see how he feels.  Both schools, of course, have amazing students and resources.

 

Haverford, right outside of Philadelphia and near Swarthmore, is another fabulous LAC to consider.

 

Good luck!

[Dmmetler]

My DD has Drexel high on her list. They turn out a lot of undergrad and grad research projects in her field, and their co-op program is really good. We aren't looking at math, though.

[daijobu]

 

A benefit of the school vis-a-vis the universities you mention is that, with no graduate population, undergrads have more research opportunities.

 

Would you say that research opportunities for undergrads at smaller schools (w/o grad schools) are better than at universities with lots of grad students?  

 

And here's my naive question:  is there a lot of STEM research happening at smaller colleges?  

[Dmmetler]

Would you say that research opportunities for undergrads at smaller schools (w/o grad schools) are better than at universities with lots of grad students?  

 

And here's my naive question:  is there a lot of STEM research happening at smaller colleges?  

 

I assume it depends on discipline. In DD's area it really depends on the school and faculty more than size. Part of that is geographic. If you happen to have a large population of, say, Gopher tortoises not far from your campus and standing grants, you can keep a lot of students busy, and have a lot of roles on project teams for relatively low cost, so it's easier to involve undergraduate students. And part of it is the people involved. Some professors just plain seem to want to get undergrads involved, and when they are at a school, opportunities start opening for undergrads. If they move to a new school, often you stop seeing undergrad opportunities to as great a degree, unless the department specifically looked for someone else who was passionate about working with undergrads.

 

Some conferences have undergraduate presentation tracks, and if they do, the programs and abstracts are a good place to look and see what names keep popping up.

[JennW in SoCal]

Would you say that research opportunities for undergrads at smaller schools (w/o grad schools) are better than at universities with lots of grad students?  

 

And here's my naive question:  is there a lot of STEM research happening at smaller colleges?  

 

YES, there is lots of STEM research happening at small liberal arts colleges.  The professors are just as engaged in their fields as their peers in large state universities.  

 

My ds is a senior at a LAC, majoring in geology.  Since the spring semester of his freshman year he has been actively involved in research with his professors, both during the semester and over the summer, and both in the lab and out in the field. He will be listed as a researcher on a paper that one professor is submitting this spring, and his own senior research paper will be submitted for publication this year as well. His research positions were all paid positions and there was grant money to cover his travel expenses to Iceland one summer and to Utah for 3 summers, as well as to cover costs of attending and presenting at the big national association of geologists. The first time he presented he was just an 18yo sophomore. It is almost unheard of to have a young undergrad present. 

 

In addition he was a TA for two semesters, positions which are traditionally held by grad students.  He has also been a peer tutor. 

 

His experience is not unique, as his friends majoring in the other sciences have also been involved in research, some on campus and some during the summer through other institutions.  His college also requires every senior to complete a 2-3 semester research paper, about the equivalent of a Master's thesis, so mentored research is simply part of the school's DNA. Many liberal arts colleges also have capstone projects and offer lab positions to students. My son's school happens to be noted for their mentored research program (The College of Wooster -- it is a fabulous place!)

 

I'm sure there are lab positions for undergrads at large universities with grad students, but perhaps not as many because the grad students depend on those positions to pay for living expenses. Undergrad students would likely have to seek them out, then might not have the close mentoring by the professor.  

[quark]

All of these are basically lottery schools. No matter how awesome your son is, do have him apply to other schools.

 

He should apply to at least one school with an acceptance rate of 30% no matter how stellar his achievements. College admissions are peculiar.

 

Thank you Gwen! We are in the wondering about/ researching/ ruling out stage right now.   :tongue_smilie: When DH brought up Philly as a possible place to move to, these were the research schools that popped up on my search.

 

This thought is always playing in my head, believe me. I know these would be great schools for him in terms of opportunities and he's my son so I naturally feel he would be good for them too :D. But for the schools to be a closer fit (I guess these are reach schools even for match students right?), he would have to add things to his plate that would take him away from other passions and perhaps this would make these schools not a very good fit anyway...my long way of saying yes, we are certainly thinking of others...but also allowing ourselves to dream a little and see where it takes us. He's the kind of kid who always asks how much it will cost before he says yes to anything. I know he won't just blindly dream either.  :001_smile: 

 

He has one choice in the 30% acceptance range and one in the 15-20% at the moment. I'd love other suggestions!

[Pen]

I went to Princeton and a friend of mine who lives in Princeton area's daughter had a lot of classmates who have started there. When I went there, Princeton was extremely high pressure, and is still according to my friend, though maybe has improved somewhat as to social life and other aspects from when I went. My friend's daughter went to Harvard which they feel is far less high pressure. Part of the pressure for me was that I did not have family nearby, so that aspect would not be a problem for your son.

 

Someone commented about Princeton being quiet. When I was there the campus was often anything but quiet between constant building (jackhammers and so on) to music blaring from dorms. Columbia where I did my graduate degree was much quieter even though it was in NYC. Maybe Princeton has become quieter in recent times-- perhaps the building going on when I was there is all done now.  But beware the view that you may get at special times like when done up for reunions or on a special tour...not just for Princeton, but any college...may look (or sound) different from the outside than when actually there.

 

On the extremely positive side for Princeton, it is relatively small for a major university with a real emphasis on undergraduate teaching, and excellent access to professors for undergrads. That was (and I believe still is) real, not just hype. If your son were ready to participate in research, I think he would be able to get that opportunity, not be closed out in favor of grad students (which Princeton has, but relatively few). But certainly, if he visits the campus to check it out, ask about that.

 

Looking at "DE diff equations, Japanese II and music" in your sig, Princeton might well be an excellent fit for your son, at least academically so. 

 

 If he loves math extremely, that might help the pressure problem--that is if his love and fun passion were also his classes and academic work. For me part of the high pressure came from my main passion at the time being something that was many hours of "extracurricular" activity on top of a full course load. Additionally, advanced work in high school was not equal to the same level at Princeton, and I started off placed too high.  That is, something like having had diff eq. or Japanese II at a community college may but more likely does not equal being able to manage the next level up from that at Princeton as if one had already had the same level course at Princeton. Students there who came from feeder schools who knew that tended to take things they'd already been introduced to to make their first semester easier and more of a transition. That would have made a huge difference.

 

My home was on the west coast, and having had the experience of being that far away during college, I'd definitely say that your ds's idea of being near home is wise.

 

But maybe he does not have to be quite that nearby. Once you are anywhere along the train routes that pass through New York and go up to Boston, down to Philly, a lot of colleges and universities become pretty easily ones that a college student could get back and forth from for holidays or where you could reach if needed in an emergency.  I don't know about math departments, but Columbia, NYU. Harvard, Yale, Brown, etc. etc. all become pretty train accessible. That may also be true for points south of Philly like Georgetown, perhaps.

[quark]

Thank you so very much for sharing your perspective, Pen. For the whole post actually. It gives me a lot to think about. I wanted to  explain a little about the following. I wrote out a lot more in my OP but deleted it because I am rarely comfortable having details out in public but what I wrote might have explained our "dreaming a little" more.

 If he loves math extremely, that might help the pressure problem--that is if his love and fun passion were also his classes and academic work. For me part of the high pressure came from my main passion at the time being something that was many hours of "extracurricular" activity on top of a full course load. Additionally, advanced work in high school was not equal to the same level at Princeton, and I started off placed too high.  That is, something like having had diff eq. or Japanese II at a community college may but more likely does not equal being able to manage the next level up from that at Princeton as if one had already had the same level course at Princeton. Students there who came from feeder schools who knew that tended to take things they'd already been introduced to to make their first semester easier and more of a transition. That would have made a huge difference.

 

My home was on the west coast, and having had the experience of being that far away during college, I'd definitely say that your ds's idea of being near home is wise.

 

But maybe he does not have to be quite that nearby. Once you are anywhere along the train routes that pass through New York and go up to Boston, down to Philly, a lot of colleges and universities become pretty easily ones that a college student could get back and forth from for holidays or where you could reach if needed in an emergency.  I don't know about math departments, but Columbia, NYU. Harvard, Yale, Brown, etc. etc. all become pretty train accessible. That may also be true for points south of Philly like Georgetown, perhaps.

 

Yes, he will do math, CS, academic things all day if he could. In fact, he can and that's mostly what he does. I don't have to ask him to. It's what he gravitates towards. It's flipped with him. The things that come easily to most are harder for him. The things that require a lot of thinking for most are easier for him. His Diff Eq is still not 100% confirmed. But it won't be at the community college (History, Jap 2, Music etc will). We are waiting to hear back about DE ing Diff Eq from a top 5 math research uni in our area. It is the hardest lower div Diff Eq section they have at the moment. This research uni is #1 on his list of 2 colleges right now. We only have the 2 colleges on the list so far and the east coast schools are still on the to-be-researched list, not the sure-apply list. The east coast schools will only happen if DH receives reliable news about getting work there (looks like we still have a long wait before that happens anyway).

 

While the Diff Eq might place him higher, he will probably start with the same level course at Princeton/ other east coast school if he is in. If his application to our local research uni is successful, he will probably choose to place higher because his CC credits will count also and he could access the "even more fun" math courses earlier (his wish). So it all depends on the schools as with everything else.

 

That's a very good point about train accessibility, thank you.

 

For now, after researching some more and asking my college counselor, it seems that DS would be a better candidate if he waited another year to apply to the east coast schools. He might be more willing to "go the distance" needed to be stronger in ECs for example. So perhaps we will just think about all this for now and not make decisions yet. Or perhaps we will visit the campuses in summer and DS will be intrigued enough to want to add more things to his ECs to have a stronger chance. I wish it was as simple as loving to learn but I know it isn't.

 

Thanks again Pen! Thanks everyone!
 

Edited January 16, 2016 by quark

[Luckymama]

Quark, you must pm me if you visit in the summer. I would love to meet you and give you a hug (if that's ok--we could just shake hands ;)) for all the support and commiseration you've given me over the past years!

[Pen]

Thank you so very much for sharing your perspective, Pen. For the whole post actually. It gives me a lot to think about. I wanted to  explain a little about the following. I wrote out a lot more in my OP but deleted it because I am rarely comfortable having details out in public but what I wrote might have explained our "dreaming a little" more.

 

Yes, he will do math, CS, academic things all day if he could. In fact, he can and that's mostly what he does. I don't have to ask him to. It's what he gravitates towards. It's flipped with him. The things that come easily to most are harder for him. The things that require a lot of thinking for most are easier for him. His Diff Eq is still not 100% confirmed. But it won't be at the community college (History, Jap 2, Music etc will). We are waiting to hear back about DE ing Diff Eq from a top 5 math research uni in our area. It is the hardest lower div Diff Eq section they have at the moment. This research uni is #1 on his list of 2 colleges right now. We only have the 2 colleges on the list so far and the east coast schools are still on the to-be-researched list, not the sure-apply list. The east coast schools will only happen if DH receives reliable news about getting work there (looks like we still have a long wait before that happens anyway).

 

While the Diff Eq might place him higher, he will probably start with the same level course at Princeton/ other east coast school if he is in. If his application to our local research uni is successful, he will probably choose to place higher because his CC credits will count also and he could access the "even more fun" math courses earlier (his wish). So it all depends on the schools as with everything else.

 

That's a very good point about train accessibility, thank you.

 

For now, after researching some more and asking my college counselor, it seems that DS would be a better candidate if he waited another year to apply to the east coast schools. He might be more willing to "go the distance" needed to be stronger in ECs for example. So perhaps we will just think about all this for now and not make decisions yet. Or perhaps we will visit the campuses in summer and DS will be intrigued enough to want to add more things to his ECs to have a stronger chance. I wish it was as simple as loving to learn but I know it isn't.

 

Thanks again Pen! Thanks everyone!

 

 

How old is he?

 

Depending on what he is doing with music that may be enough, or almost enough, for showing breadth of his interests for an application without artificially adding ECs.   I think they may be alert to artificially added ECs.  

 

For Princeton, one other important thing is writing. It is extremely strong in math, science, computer science. But. Writing is very important there. For example, a boyfriend of mine who was math Olympiad competitor etc., extremely strong in math, science and cs, and went into cs professionally, but had a writing problem (I think more psychological block than real) ended up having to transfer to a different Ivy (that was a less good fit in its math, cs and science) because Princeton was too writing intensive for him:  essay exams usually (not in math, but you cannot take just math), junior papers, senior thesis, etc.. Some departments have less writing than others, but there is a lot more required there than many other unis have.

 

I agree with being able to get into higher level math courses making things more fun. And also could help provide a starter group of compatible kids who are also really into and love math.

[quark]

Quark, you must pm me if you visit in the summer. I would love to meet you and give you a hug (if that's ok--we could just shake hands ;)) for all the support and commiseration you've given me over the past years!

:001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub: Of course!! Advanced hugs right now!! :grouphug: :laugh:

 

For Princeton, one other important thing is writing. It is extremely strong in math, science, computer science. But. Writing is very important there.

 

 

 

Very good to know! Thank you Pen!

[lisabees]

Quark - DS16 takes math classes at Penn.  He likes the campus and the professors.  He will be taking a physics course there next year, in addition to math.  If your ds would like to connect with mine, please let me know.

 

Ds may be graduating early, which would be next year.  MIT and Princeton are at the top of his list.  He will be a physics major and would prefer a smaller research university as well.

 

Funny you mention Horsham - we are minutes away.

 

I do have thoughts on Swarthmore and Haverford...

 

 

[quark]

Quark - DS16 takes math classes at Penn.  He likes the campus and the professors.  He will be taking a physics course there next year, in addition to math.  If your ds would like to connect with mine, please let me know.

 

Ds may be graduating early, which would be next year.  MIT and Princeton are at the top of his list.  He will be a physics major and would prefer a smaller research university as well.

 

Funny you mention Horsham - we are minutes away.

 

I do have thoughts on Swarthmore and Haverford...

 

Thank you so much Lisa! I will contact you if DH's work application comes through. :) If it does, we should be somewhere close to Horsham. :)