Truth, Beauty, & Goodness / Ideas over facts. Thoughts please

[Raising Little Shoots]

Hello all

 

I am posting for thoughts from wiser, & more experienced mums :)

I am English. The education system is such that children take their exams (G.C.S.E's) at age 16. They take a lot of them all at once...usually, between 5 & 11 separate exams is the norm.

 

We have decided to start Elianna on the syllabus for the IGCSE in September (I stands for international - it can be done purely by exam, is the norm for home ed families as GCSE is part controlled assessment) We need to register her for the June exam in January, so we will have a short time to see how she is getting on (she will be 13 yo when she takes the exam) Many home ed families space exams like this, & I am hoping to avoid the pressure of many exams all at one time. 

 

So, getting to the point of this post...I have tried over our time of home educating,  to keep in the forefront of my mind CM's ideal of 'Ideas not facts'. By the nature of the exam, (let's not get started on that one!) and of course to some extent, the nature of the subject, this is going to be more of a facts over ideas course.

 

Please may I ask for thoughts on keeping an atmosphere of Truth, Beauty, & Goodness in our home? 

 

Her day is going to be very 'meaty' - but not many subjects. Mon-Thurs she will have maths, Latin, & Language arts in the morning. Monday afternoons are nature study & Lit, Tues & wednesday afternoons we will have afternoon tea together. 

On Tues we will have poetry, picture study, & lit, Weds afternoon will be poetry , philosophy (discussion using 'Philosophy for kids'), & classical studies (the trojan war)

When I say poetry, that is CM style read aloud & discuss...same for Lit & classical studies. 1 x month for more formal poetry study. 

Thursday afternoons are for bi-weekly creative art, bi-weekly home ed social.

In the evenings, she will be doing about 45 mins biology Mon - Thursday, plus her assigned reading which she does at night time, Mon-Fr. 

Friday mornings are history,(reading / outlining) science club with two other girls working on the same course & afternoons are either home ed group, field trips, or just a short day.

 

Thoughts please..Truth, Beauty, and Goodness? 

 

Thank you if you made it to the end of this lengthy post!

 

ETA history - oops! I forgot history!

 

 

 

[Raising Little Shoots]

I have just seen these audios in the Circe store & I am tempted..

 

 

 

Beauty in the Chaotic, Ordinary Homeschool

 

The Three Steps: How to Lead Powerful Discussions

The Fool's Guide to Cultivating Wisdom and Virtue

 

 Has anyone heard these talks?

 

 

 

[Denise in IN]

It looks like you are keeping elements in your home school that will give her time to focus on something besides "facts" - the tea time, poetry, art, philosophy.  My thought is that if you leave space for those kinds of things, it will help bring a balance to her days.

 

Haven't heard any of those talks, but they all look really good!  Andrew Kern & Sara Mackenzie are always good, imo, you can't hardly go wrong there.  Haven't heard of Tim McIntosh, but I may buy it an listen because the topic looks excellent!

[Raising Little Shoots]

Thank you for your encouraging reply, Denise.

 

I have just downloaded the 'Powerful Discussions' talk :)

[Rosie_0801]

I consider learning to find truth, beauty and goodness in the facts a valuable life skill.

[Raising Little Shoots]

hmm, yes, now you put it like that.... :)

 

Thank you

[8filltheheart]

From my perspective it is how education is approached. My children are immersed in learning through good quality writing by authors who are passionate about their subjects and give depth and breadth to the ideas they are covering. That is contrary to traditional textbook educations which have controlled content with a narrow focus written by textbook committees. We approach education as new ideas are interesting--where can the lead us. Textbooks approach education as this information is what you need to know and this is where we are directing you.

[EmilyGF]

Ideas over facts doesn't mean no facts. It means facts within ideas.

 

My son has a book of "5000 Awesome Facts" by National Geographic. Each fact is 1-2 sentences long and "cool."

 

He also has a book, written in literary style, about raptors. 

 

Which one will he remember and assimilate? Which one will he just read? In which one will he learn new vocabulary?

 

Emily

[Kerry Blue]

I think you need to figure out how much you care about the results for the test, and go from there. If the test results don't mean anything to you, and they don't affect your daughter's future, then they don't matter. If the results DO matter, then personally, I would take steps to work towards better test results.

 

I love teaching truth, beauty, and goodness. I want my children to have great connections and ideas. BUT my family must also operate in the modern real world, which does not believe in the same things I believe in. My state tells me what subjects I must teach (though in lower grades it does not tell much how much I must teach in each subject), requires my children to take standardized tests periodically (though all they need to show is improvement), and eventually they could end up in classes that require them to learn a set of facts and regurgitate them. I'm hoping when my children get to this point, something in the system would have changed, but I realize that it is the world we live in.

 

We try so hard to give our children the ideal education... :sad:

[Raising Little Shoots]

From my perspective it is how education is approached. My children are immersed in learning through good quality writing by authors who are passionate about their subjects and give depth and breadth to the ideas they are covering. That is contrary to traditional textbook educations which have controlled content with a narrow focus written by textbook committees. We approach education as new ideas are interesting--where can the lead us. Textbooks approach education as this information is what you need to know and this is where we are directing you.

 

This this is the whole point of my post...this is what I have tired to do with my children's  education...but now I have to teach for the test. In this case, the textbook is right! It will contain this information she needs to know (to pass the test). And the test is very important. GCSE's are what get you into college, college quals are what get you into university.

[Raising Little Shoots]

I think you need to figure out how much you care about the results for the test, and go from there. If the test results don't mean anything to you, and they don't affect your daughter's future, then they don't matter. If the results DO matter, then personally, I would take steps to work towards better test results.

 

I love teaching truth, beauty, and goodness. I want my children to have great connections and ideas. BUT my family must also operate in the modern real world, which does not believe in the same things I believe in. My state tells me what subjects I must teach (though in lower grades it does not tell much how much I must teach in each subject), requires my children to take standardized tests periodically (though all they need to show is improvement), and eventually they could end up in classes that require them to learn a set of facts and regurgitate them. I'm hoping when my children get to this point, something in the system would have changed, but I realize that it is the world we live in.

 

We try so hard to give our children the ideal education... :sad:

 

Kerry, you hit the nail on the head...we do so much to give our children the ideal...but we are in the real world. If she wants to go to uni (& I hope she will!) she needs to pass at least 5 GCSE's...so they are not just tests along the way...they are a big deal for her future.

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

From my perspective it is how education is approached. My children are immersed in learning through good quality writing by authors who are passionate about their subjects and give depth and breadth to the ideas they are covering. That is contrary to traditional textbook educations which have controlled content with a narrow focus written by textbook committees. We approach education as new ideas are interesting--where can the lead us. Textbooks approach education as this information is what you need to know and this is where we are directing you.

Doesn't it depend on the textbook, though? We have a few textbooks that are written by one or two authors which we sometimes read for pleasure.

 

I visited a friend the other day and was surprised to find a textbook by her reading chair. I asked if she was getting another degree. She replied that it was for leisure reading.

 

I do agree many textbooks are far from pleasurable reading material!

[Raising Little Shoots]

Doesn't it depend on the textbook, though? We have a few textbooks that are written by one or two authors which we sometimes read for pleasure.

 

I visited a friend the other day and was surprised to find a textbook by her reading chair. I asked if she was getting another degree. She replied that it was for leisure reading.

 

I do agree many textbooks are far from pleasurable reading material!

 

You have given me hope :)

 

We are awaiting the textbook arriving in the post...and the textbook is only part of the learning...we will be meeting once a week with 2 other girls who are taking the same course. I have been running a science club for them for the last several months & they are a smashing bunch together. We have great discussions about what we (yes, me too) are learning.

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I have always had two tracks going for almost every subject. A textbook track and living book track. It's worked well for us. :)

[Raising Little Shoots]

Wonderful idea.

 

So now I need to find myself a GCSE level, biology living book.

 

Any suggestions?

[Raising Little Shoots]

In case it helps anyone else, I found this thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/55942-any-suggestions-for-living-books-for-biology/

[8filltheheart]

Doesn't it depend on the textbook, though? We have a few textbooks that are written by one or two authors which we sometimes read for pleasure.

 

I visited a friend the other day and was surprised to find a textbook by her reading chair. I asked if she was getting another degree. She replied that it was for leisure reading.

 

I do agree many textbooks are far from pleasurable reading material!

 

The only textbooks I have ever found that I like are the ones written by individuals as opposed to textbook committees.  Foerster's math book is a great example of a well-written textbook where the author's personality and love for his subject shows.  There are definite gems out there. 

[Ms.Ivy]

I think facts should be in the context of ideas -- facts are true and beautiful, if they are presented in the context of an idea.  It's not that you have to have ideas OR facts, or that you have to teach beauty OR facts for tests.  I have known people who love reading Tolkien so much that they learn his elvish languages. A constructed language would be some "facts" I'm not interested in, but some really appreciate the "goodness" or "beauty" of his work and are willing to study those facts for fun.  I think math and science can be sort of the same way.  Like the others said, there are some really good textbooks out there that can be good test prep, that also present the facts in the context of ideas.  I think as parents we have to be careful not to work from our own prejudices about what we feel is NOT beautiful or interesting.  

[Ms.Ivy]

I wanted to add that sometimes the "idea" needed to put the study of facts into context is simply a vision of the good that can be done with the information. A kid with a vision of the possibility and goodness of becoming a medical doctor would find the study of biology much more satisfactory than would a kid whose math skills are so far behind that they can't reasonably attend college, and who has to slog through biology just to check off a list for high school.

[Bluegoat]

I think that maybe an important aspect of this project would just be involving the child in the process.  A child has had a really good education, and has some understanding of the purpose of the text and why it is important - even just as a hoop - it might be a bit of a grind but not total doom.

[wintermom]

I think simply by spacing out the exams over several years will be a brilliant way to avoid the panic of learning and retaining too much information all at once and eliminate the chances of the bigger "ideas" being understood and connections made. Also, focusing on the subjects your dd really enjoys and needs for her future career would probably be wise. She's taking "everything" now, and she may want to consider narrowing her focus in the next couple years so she has the time to go in greater depth for the subjects she wants to pursue (e.g., Classical studies, languages, sciences, vocational).

[Raising Little Shoots]

Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts..it is all really helpful.

[stutterfish]

We have spaced out studying for IGCSEs, with my children starting at age 13/14. I, too, wanted to keep a balance to our life, to enjoy the things we had done before we started the path to exams.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think we've been as successful at keeping a balance as I would have liked. I found it very difficult to switch off from 'teaching to the test' once we got onto that path; we went from 'well it doesn't matter if you pass' to 'there's no point doing this if we aren't going to work hard on it'. In terms of our week, even when my children were only taking a few subjects, we needed to be at home more to work from textbooks (no more days spent at the woods whenever the sun shone) and we spent far more time in the car travelling to tutor groups and generally meeting the needs of different aged children. 

 

 

IGCSE textbooks are dull, but a necessary evil. By all means do supplement with more interesting resources, but imo the syllabus textbooks are are the most direct way to ensure you pass the exams. :)

 

I planned for us to just 'dip our toes' into the exams process, but at some point we had to commit (time and money) and that did impact on the structure to our week and our style of homeschooling. I can't comment on CM, but I do think balance can be achieved if you don't get totally sucked into the process. It also depends very much on the child: if you are fortunate to have a child who doesn't need lots and lots of support to jump exam hoops, you will have far more time and energy to do the fun and interesting stuff. My children have had a good social life alongside their studying, have participated in competitive sports, volunteered, continued their interests, etc. so I don't think it's been a disaster, but I do sometimes mourn the loss our old homeschooling life. 

 

I wish you luck!

 

(p.s. I was very honest with my children that I didn't consider this process to be 'real-life learning' that it was simply hoop-jumping and that once they had got the required number of exams they couldl, if they wish, choose never to take any again. I didn't want to undervalue what they were doing, but it was important to me that they didn't feel I was turning my back on my beliefs about the importance of a lifelong 'whole' education.)

[Raising Little Shoots]

 I found it very difficult to switch off from 'teaching to the test' once we got onto that path; we went from 'well it doesn't matter if you pass' to 'there's no point doing this if we aren't going to work hard on it'. 

^^^ This!

 

As much as I want my daughter to have a lovely, wide, balanced knowledge of biology, colleges & employers won't give a fig, unless she has her exams. And to pass the exams, she needs to know the syllabus. I feel the maxim 'education should be the lighting of a fire, not the filling of a bucket' has suddenly switched on me :(

 

Thanks for your post. Perhaps if exams are spaced out, there is a little more chance of keeping a similar spirit to what we have had in the past, though as you say, it becomes harder. As we are hoping for her to do this in a year, there is much less ability to be spontaneous in our days..

 

Thanks so much for sharing

[Raising Little Shoots]

I will try to keep you posted...assuming I do not wither away from the stress / lack of truth, beauty, and goodness  :leaving:

[8filltheheart]

^^^ This!

 

As much as I want my daughter to have a lovely, wide, balanced knowledge of biology, colleges & employers won't give a fig, unless she has her exams. And to pass the exams, she needs to know the syllabus. I feel the maxim 'education should be the lighting of a fire, not the filling of a bucket' has suddenly switched on me :(

 

Thanks for your post. Perhaps if exams are spaced out, there is a little more chance of keeping a similar spirit to what we have had in the past, though as you say, it becomes harder. As we are hoping for her to do this in a year, there is much less ability to be spontaneous in our days..

 

Thanks so much for sharing

 

I know absolutely nothing about IGSCEs, so my thoughts are probably not very helpful.  Are they very different than SAT subject tests, CLEPs, and APs?  My kids do prepare for some of these, but we haven't felt like we have had to completely abandon our approach to education to take them. Some classes it has been easier to just completely jump into the prep type class (AP chem, for example), but for some subjects they have been able to study the way we always have, but we adapt to the content they need OR do targeted test prep in addition to.  I have no idea if that is at all possible with the IGSCEs or not.

 

For example AoPS cal is not AP oriented.  Ds took the AoPS class and then spent time prepping for the APs specific format.  For American history, we still use the resources we like and then they do minor prep work for the CLEP exam, etc.  My kids' studies are very academically oriented, so for us it is more about the what we are using to cover the topics vs. what they are learning.  

[Raising Little Shoots]

To be honest, I don't have a great understanding of all the different US tests. IGCSE. stands for (International) General Certificate Of Secondary Education. They are the exams children in the UK (except Scotland) take at age 16. They begin a two year course of study at 14 for all the different GCSEs they will take, so, maths, English Language, English Literature, Physics etc etc. Then they take all the separate exams over a period of a few weeks. The exams are graded: A*, A, B, C, D, E, F or G. The child then goes to college & can take A levels, (or equiv) which are needed to get into university. Depending on the A levels & ultimately the degree you wish to take, you tailor the GCSEs to that end in mind.

 

Here is an interesting article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/secondaryeducation/8720277/Our-children-deserve-better-than-the-worthless-GCSE.html

[Raising Little Shoots]

No problem!

 

My dd is only 12 yo - this is the first IGCSE we have thought about. She will be 13.5 at the time of the exam.

 

I have ordered this book:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edexcel-IGCSE-Biology-Student-International/dp/043596688X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1435055235&sr=8-3&keywords=igcse+biology

 

There wasn't a whole lot of choice  :huh:

 

My ed phil is CM inspired, but we are by no means purists...I am learning on the job so to speak!

 

I found this book last night, & I have ordered it for her to read alongside our studies:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0091812690?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

 

I am going to look for other 'living' books for her to read with each area of study in our text book. 

 

So my plan is as follows; She will spend about 45 mins 4 days a week, reading through the text book & writing a narration (summary) of what she has read. On Friday mornings, we will meet with the two other girls using the same course to discuss, review, iron out any problems, complete any activities etc. She has time allocated each day for assigned reading, so it looks like a lot of it will be biology related this year. :glare:

 

In January, we will review how we are doing, & if it seems achievable, enter her for the exam at a local exam centre. 

 

No idea about the change in '17 

 

ETA: I will also be using ideas from the textbook for memory work during our afternoon time.

 

[Raising Little Shoots]

but I find the whole thing a little intimidating 

 

Me too!

 

yes, we are starting with just one exam this year. Next year she will be working toward RE & psychology (a friend is going to tutor her own daughter, as well as mine) She may do another also next year, depending on how things are going.

 

I think covering the material in a living format is the ideal, but tbh, I am lacking confidence in myself & my own knowledge, so this is where the teaching to the test is coming in... I plan to spend summer researching good living books to go along side the course...hopefully we will be ok :) The answer key for the course book I linked above is online, & having looked at it, I feel really hopeful!

 

I think planning ahead will be such a good thing. 

 

I imagine A / AS levels she will go to college for. In fact we have discussed her going to collage at 14 to do a couple of subjects such as maths (this is a new thing here, but colleges are now offering GCSE courses from age 14) some local HE families have accessed them with much success.

[Raising Little Shoots]

Yes, for the last few years colleges have offered courses, but funding came via LEA so HE kids had to fund themselves. Now funding goes direct to the college, so HE kids do not need to pay!

[Raising Little Shoots]

I am following your blog, btw  :lurk5:

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Wonderful idea.

 

So now I need to find myself a GCSE level, biology living book.

 

Any suggestions?

I'm not familiar with the level, although maybe it's mentioned elsewhere in the thread; I haven't read it all. There are so many good books. I would try to find a biology book that is the appropriate level AND comes from an angle that interests the student.

 

For example, we studied chemistry from a forensics angle. It made even learning the basics more interesting for my daughter. (Although she found chemistry somewhat interesting anyway...)

[Tress]

I don't know much about the content of the GSCE exams, but I'm from the Netherlands and we have a similar exam structure to get accepted into a university. Dutch students need to take 10-11 state exams. Only 10% of Dutch students go to University.

I have been wrestling with the same questions you have. And I'm always a bit envious of American homescholers, who seem to have much more freedom, at least it looks that way :).

 

You write that your dd needs to take at least 5 exams. Can you choose which subjects to take the exam for?

 

Because, for me at least, certain subjects are much more problematic to teach/learn with textbooks than others.

I don't like to use a textbook for Dutch language arts, because it will contain lots of busy work for my dd who reads voracious and loves to write. But I don't mind at all using a textbook to teach English & French & Latin (adding Greek next year).

I don't mind using a textbook for math......but for history or geography it is problematic.

 

Dutch students can choose which exams to take, but within a prescribed framework. Looking at my dds interests, she probably has to take the history exam. My current plan is to give her a good living book knowledge of history and spend the last 2 years before the exam, working our way through the syllabus and accompanying books.

 

We are not there yet, so I can't say for sure it's going to work. I don't plan on having her take the history exam early, because of the oral exam. I do plan on her taking eg Biology early, I'm not so worried about the oral exam for that subject.

[Raising Little Shoots]

I don't know much about the content of the GSCE exams, but I'm from the Netherlands and we have a similar exam structure to get accepted into a university. Dutch students need to take 10-11 state exams. Only 10% of Dutch students go to University.

I have been wrestling with the same questions you have. And I'm always a bit envious of American homescholers, who seem to have much more freedom, at least it looks that way :).

 

You write that your dd needs to take at least 5 exams. Can you choose which subjects to take the exam for?

 

Because, for me at least, certain subjects are much more problematic to teach/learn with textbooks than others.

I don't like to use a textbook for Dutch language arts, because it will contain lots of busy work for my dd who reads voracious and loves to write. But I don't mind at all using a textbook to teach English & French & Latin (adding Greek next year).

I don't mind using a textbook for math......but for history or geography it is problematic.

 

Dutch students can choose which exams to take, but within a prescribed framework. Looking at my dds interests, she probably has to take the history exam. My current plan is to give her a good living book knowledge of history and spend the last 2 years before the exam, working our way through the syllabus and accompanying books.

 

We are not there yet, so I can't say for sure it's going to work. I don't plan on having her take the history exam early, because of the oral exam. I do plan on her taking eg Biology early, I'm not so worried about the oral exam for that subject.

 

Yes, she is able to choose her own exams. We have discussed it and she has expressed interest in:

Maths

Eng lang

Eng lit

Biology

Religious Education

Psychology

General Science

Philosophy

History

 

We will take it step by step & see how we go along the way.

 

It is really interesting that you have an oral component to your exams. And I am DEEPLY impressed at all your languages.

 

[stutterfish]

Only the Cambridge examination board exams are around here, so we may have to travel to another country to sit some of the exams

Cambridge do IGCSEs - most of the students who do IGCSEs outside of the UK use Cambridge - or have I misunderstood why you need to go elsewhere for exams?

[stutterfish]

Yes, she is able to choose her own exams. We have discussed it and she has expressed interest in:

Maths

Eng lang

Eng lit

Biology

Religious Education

Psychology

General Science

Philosophy

History

 

We will take it step by step & see how we go along the way.

 

It is really interesting that you have an oral component to your exams. And I am DEEPLY impressed at all your languages.

 

Are you in the UK? In the UK the oral component is now compulsory for IGCSE languages. It can be troublesome to arrange for less common languages.

[stutterfish]

No problem!

 

My dd is only 12 yo - this is the first IGCSE we have thought about. She will be 13.5 at the time of the exam.

 

I have ordered this book:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edexcel-IGCSE-Biology-Student-International/dp/043596688X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1435055235&sr=8-3&keywords=igcse+biology

 

There wasn't a whole lot of choice :huh:

 

My ed phil is CM inspired, but we are by no means purists...I am learning on the job so to speak!

 

I found this book last night, & I have ordered it for her to read alongside our studies:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0091812690?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

 

I am going to look for other 'living' books for her to read with each area of study in our text book.

 

So my plan is as follows; She will spend about 45 mins 4 days a week, reading through the text book & writing a narration (summary) of what she has read. On Friday mornings, we will meet with the two other girls using the same course to discuss, review, iron out any problems, complete any activities etc. She has time allocated each day for assigned reading, so it looks like a lot of it will be biology related this year. :glare:

 

In January, we will review how we are doing, & if it seems achievable, enter her for the exam at a local exam centre.

 

No idea about the change in '17

 

ETA: I will also be using ideas from the textbook for memory work during our afternoon time.

 

I can recommend the CGP revision book as a good brief overview for the syllabus content. The pages look cluttered, but it was popular with my teens doing the exam. click4biology on youtube is a good no-frills place to find videos for the syllabus.

 

Are you planning to do any practicals? We found them really useful.

 

You might find you need to allocate more time per week if you plan to cover the content in a year. My sons took 8 months from start to exam and went through the book/syllabus twice, (once with a tutor group). We spent about 5-6 hrs a week on the subject - practicals, theory, textbook and questions - and then spent 8-10 weeks before the exam working through past papers, (during this revision period one child needed to spend about 10 hours a week revising, the other with dyslexic issues needed at least 15 hrs a week for revision).

[stutterfish]

From what I've seen, different boards offer slightly different subjects. Also, not everything on the Cambridge list will be available here.

Ah, yes. Cambridge do offer a wider range of subjects than Edexcel, though, so hopefully you'll find most that you need without having to travel too far :)

[Raising Little Shoots]

Are you in the UK? In the UK the oral component is now compulsory for IGCSE languages. It can be troublesome to arrange for less common languages.

 

Ah, yes. I was reading the OP to say that there was an oral component for other exams, such as history & biology.

[Raising Little Shoots]

I can recommend the CGP revision book as a good brief overview for the syllabus content. The pages look cluttered, but it was popular with my teens doing the exam. click4biology on youtube is a good no-frills place to find videos for the syllabus.

 

Are you planning to do any practicals? We found them really useful.

 

You might find you need to allocate more time per week if you plan to cover the content in a year. My sons took 8 months from start to exam and went through the book/syllabus twice, (once with a tutor group). We spent about 5-6 hrs a week on the subject - practicals, theory, textbook and questions - and then spent 8-10 weeks before the exam working through past papers, (during this revision period one child needed to spend about 10 hours a week revising, the other with dyslexic issues needed at least 15 hrs a week for revision).

 

That is really helpful, thank you.

 

If you have anything else to share, please do! I would be particularly interested in how you structured your course.

 

Thanks again.

[stutterfish]

Yes, for the last few years colleges have offered courses, but funding came via LEA so HE kids had to fund themselves. Now funding goes direct to the college, so HE kids do not need to pay!

 

It depends where you are, but for most colleges the choice of courses at this age seems quite limited and very low-level. In my experience few colleges offer GCSEs to that age group at the moment: I guess there is little motivation for them to offer something that is available to the majority of children through schools. Usually all that is on offer are the level 1 BTECs in vocational subjects.

 

The experience of friends with children in the 14-16 BTEC classes has been that the classes often have children in them who are 'failing' in school and who can be disruptive or unwilling to work. (Schools put children on the college courses because they are not capable of achieving much in the school system). The level of work required is minimum.

 

We looked into it as an option for my eldest, but he would have been bored and frustrated at the slow pace and disruption. I'm looking into it again as an option for another child, but I think my conclusion will be the same.

 

Things are changing all the time, so it's worth keeping an eye on what is offered. If a local college could have offered some suitable free GCSE courses for my kids I probably would have jumped at the chance! :)

[Raising Little Shoots]

Yes, I agree, that can be problematic. I have friends whose children have taken GCSEs this way the last 3 or 4 years, and each year it is getting better :)

[stutterfish]

Ah, yes. I was reading the OP to say that there was an oral component for other exams, such as history & biology.

Ah yes, sorry. I misread. :)

[stutterfish]

Apologies for my long responses. I seem to have derailed your question about truth, beauty and goodness with picky details about practicalities! Please feel free to get it back on track :)

[Raising Little Shoots]

Not at all! Practicalities most welcome  :hurray:

[Tress]

Ah, yes. I was reading the OP to say that there was an oral component for other exams, such as history & biology.

 

I mentioned an oral exam for history and biology, but I'm not in the UK.

All state exams in the Netherlands have an oral part, yes, including math  :001_rolleyes: .

[wintermom]

Yes, she is able to choose her own exams. We have discussed it and she has expressed interest in:

Maths

Eng lang

Eng lit

Biology

Religious Education

Psychology

General Science

Philosophy

History

 

We will take it step by step & see how we go along the way.

 

It is really interesting that you have an oral component to your exams. And I am DEEPLY impressed at all your languages.

 

Looks a little like your dd is going to have some very heavy subjects with lots of reading and writing.  Is it very common to have 16 year olds take this many subjects in both the sciences and arts area?  Overwhelming would be my first thought. Thank goodness you are spreading it out over a couple years.

[Raising Little Shoots]

Looks a little like your dd is going to have some very heavy subjects with lots of reading and writing.  Is it very common to have 16 year olds take this many subjects in both the sciences and arts area?  Overwhelming would be my first thought. Thank goodness you are spreading it out over a couple years.

 

I have to say that these are subjects she has expressed interest in...we may / may not end up studying them all. However, it is the norm for children to begin to study for their GCSEs at age 14 for two years, then take the exams all at once. Five - eleven, perhaps twelve different exams is the norm. Very high pressure :(

[wintermom]

I have to say that these are subjects she has expressed interest in...we may / may not end up studying them all. However, it is the norm for children to begin to study for their GCSEs at age 14 for two years, then take the exams all at once. Five - eleven, perhaps twelve different exams is the norm. Very high pressure :(

 

I'm not familiar with the University system in the UK, but I know in other parts of Europe the undergraduate students specialize early in their particular area of interest. If this is also the case in the UK, then wouldn't it make sense to focus on the subjects necessary for admission into uni? Why would students take up to 12 subjects? Is it because they don't know what they want to focus on, or to broaden their chances of getting into at least one field of study? 

 

I can understand why a student would want to continue studying a broad range of topics, but must they take an exam in each one?

[Tress]

I'm not familiar with the University system in the UK, but I know in other parts of Europe the undergraduate students specialize early in their particular area of interest. If this is also the case in the UK, then wouldn't it make sense to focus on the subjects necessary for admission into uni? Why would students take up to 12 subjects? Is it because they don't know what they want to focus on, or to broaden their chances of getting into at least one field of study?

 

I can understand why a student would want to continue studying a broad range of topics, but must they take an exam in each one?

I'm not completely sure I'm understanding your question.

 

In the Netherlands students do not take general courses at university. I have a masters degree in astrophysics and the only courses I took in my 5 years at the university were Math, Physics and Astrophysics. No languages, no literature, no history.

 

To me, that makes it even *more* important to take lots of different courses in high school (7-12grade). If I had specialised early, and taken only math/physics state exams, I would not have had any kind of all round education.

 

Oh, I'm thinking of something. Wintermom, I guess you are concerned about university entrance. It is true that if you want to study eg physics, you have to have taken the physics state exam. But other than that, if my dd passes the state exams and gets her high school diploma, every Dutch university has to accept her for whatever study she decides to take. There are only a few studies where there are limited places and there is a lottery.

 

What I find difficult in our situation, is that in order for my dd to choose her state exams, she needs to have experienced those subjects. How would she know if she likes physics or economy or philosophy, if she has never studied them. This means that Dutch students on the highest track, take up to 16(?) different subjects simultanously in 7-9th grade. At least Dutch&English&French&German, Latin&Greek, Bio&Chemistry&Physics, History&Geography, Economics, Art&Music, depending on the school other subjects can be added. This is very difficult to do at home. Especially if you want to 'teach from rest' and have time to experience Goodness, Truth and Beauty :lol:.

 

I do plan to spread out the state exams, to make them less overwhelming. On the other hand, I'm sometimes wondering, just like with a young child when you work long to teach them something they could have picked up really quickly when a bit older......sometimes I wonder if my dd would not spend way more time preparing for a state exam at 14 in stead of at 17. I don't know. I find this very difficult to decide.