Why doesn't my child want to THINK? - sorry this got long.

[Hoggirl]

Sigh. Okay, so we don't have the dawdling problem in this household. That's a good thing, right? Well, I am not so sure. My ds (age 11) does not want to THINK! We were doing our CLE Reading today, which, BTW, I love. However, the questions move beyond basic comprehension and delve more into thinking and reading between the lines...understanding figurative language, etc. He has studied a lot of that, but he doesn't want to

apply it. He gets so frustrated when he doesn't "get" things immediately! So, today, there is a passage about "you were friends of my fathers who have gone the long way," (It was in a Native American speech), and he is supposed to figure out what that means (it means their dead now). So here we go:

 

me: What does the passage mean?

ds: I don't know.

me: Well, let's read it again.

ds: That won't help.

me: Well, let's break it apart...who do you think the "fathers" are?

ds: Ancestors.

me: Good, yes, that's right. So, what do you think "have gone the long way"

means.

ds: I don't know.

me: Well, think about it.

ds: I don't know, just tell me.

me: No, I'm not going to tell you, let's work through it and think about it.

ds: You're wasting time. Just tell me.

me: No. Now you said the "fathers" were ancestors, right?

ds: Yes. Just tell me what the other part means.

me: Well, what has happened to your ancestors?

ds: They've died.

me: Yes! That's right. So, what do you think "have gone the long way"

means?

ds: That they died. That's stupid.

 

Okay, I was really patient. I was. Ds was not. He just wanted to get the answer and move on. I don't mind that he doesn't understand it. What I do mind is having to fight tooth and nail to work with him to get him to find the answer for himself.

 

He just doesn't want to discuss school stuff. He will talk about all kinds of other stuff.

 

What can I do? Why doesn't he want to think? Am I expecting too much?

[Hoggirl]

Sigh. Okay, so we don't have the dawdling problem in this household. That's a good thing, right? Well, I am not so sure. My ds (age 11) does not want to THINK! We were doing our CLE Reading today, which, BTW, I love. However, the questions move beyond basic comprehension and delve more into thinking and reading between the lines...understanding figurative language, etc. He has studied a lot of that, but he doesn't want to

apply it. He gets so frustrated when he doesn't "get" things immediately! So, today, there is a passage about "you were friends of my fathers who have gone the long way," (It was in a Native American speech), and he is supposed to figure out what that means (it means their dead now). So here we go:

 

me: What does the passage mean?

ds: I don't know. Just tell me.

me: Well, let's read it again.

ds: That won't help.

me: Well, let's break it apart...who do you think the "fathers" are?

ds: Ancestors.

me: Good, yes, that's right. So, what do you think "have gone the long way"

means.

ds: I don't know.

me: Well, think about it.

ds: I don't know, just tell me.

me: No, I'm not going to tell you, let's work through it and think about it.

ds: You're wasting time. Just tell me.

me: No. Now you said the "fathers" were ancestors, right?

ds: Yes. Just tell me what the other part means.

me: Well, what has happened to your ancestors?

ds: They've died.

me: Yes! That's right. So, what do you think "have gone the long way"

means?

ds: That they died. That's stupid.

 

Okay, I was really patient. I was. Ds was not. He just wanted to get the answer and move on. I don't mind that he doesn't understand it. What I do mind is having to fight tooth and nail to work with him to get him to find the answer for himself.

 

He just doesn't want to discuss school stuff. He will talk about all kinds of other stuff.

 

What can I do? Why doesn't he want to think? Am I expecting too much?

[Elm in NJ]

We are also having the same problems over here with CLE Reading 7. The higher-order thinking questions are really getting to my ds. I am getting frustrated, he is getting frustrated but after doing CLE 5 and 6, you would think that he was use to these by now.

 

Elmeryl

[nmoira]

What can I do? Why doesn't he want to think? Am I expecting too much?

I can only speak as to the dialogue presented, but it sounds like you're fishing for one "correct" answer and he knows it. That's not the same thing as asking him to think.

 

I'd start out with "What do you think this means?"

[Kissy]

It must be a boy thing..Mine does it too..if you find the answer to how to help let me know. ;)

[Rosie_0801]

If he is able to think about stuff in other areas, I wouldn't worry. Some of us just don't get metaphor. He's still at the stage of "black or white" thinking, and will probably get a bit better at this sort of stuff once his brain can handle the idea of "grey" areas. Or he might not. I'm still pretty thick when it comes to metaphor. I'm with your son, "say what you mean and don't pussy foot around!" Some of us don't do poetry :)

I'm not too clued into this trivium idea, but it sounds like the exercise is trying to force a grammar minded kid to think like a logic level kid.

Out of curiousity, how does he do with riddles? I think it's the same sort of thinking, but in a more child friendly way.

:)

Rosie

[Alana in Canada]

I'm curious about his comment that it was stupid.

 

In our house, such an assertion is not allowed to go unchallenged. Why does he think it is stupid? Have him come up with a reason. That may get him thinking!

 

And then leave it there with a "That's interesting." Don't argue it with him or he may think he got the answer "wrong." Leave it open ended.

[Zanyan]

I am a speech-language pathologist, and so well-versed in developmental stages of language acquisition. Even though a child has reached a certain birthday, it does not mean that they are ready for all of the tasks requisite for deeper, logic-stage thinking. It's better to think in terms of a range of ages, say 10 (very unusual, but possible) to 14, rather than in terms of "on or about the 11th birthday, every child will be able to think and apply a certain type of logic.

 

Understanding a topic, or way of thinking must come before being able to express it oneself, so it is quite possible that he does understand what you are asking, but isn't quite yet able to express that level of thought. Does that make sense? Receptive language (the ability to process and understand what is said) is usually stronger than expressive language in most cases. For example, I may be able to understand a lecture by William F. Buckley, Jr., but I could never spontaneously express myself in as complex a manner as he did. :lol:

 

It sounds like your son does understand what you have been teaching him. Walking him through the thinking process, and showing him how to think it through are probably exactly where he is in his development right now - and that's fine! After you've walked him through it a number of times, he'll start saying, "I already know this mom! That passage means_____________, Duh!" and act like you're crazy for thinking he couldn't do all of the task himself.

 

At least, that's what I'm going through with my high school freshman right now, who says he can't possibly do XYZ homework task one minute, and then gets indignant with me when I try to help him, because of course he can do it himself! Duh!:banghead:

[Peela]

He just doesn't want to discuss school stuff. He will talk about all kinds of other stuff.

 

What can I do? Why doesn't he want to think? Am I expecting too much?

 

Yes, I do think you are expecting too much, in a way. He is who is he. Its not his thing, he's not interested, and isn't that pretty normal and reasonable and healthy for an 11year old boy?

I also do think that you need to make sure there is not one single answer you are expecting- ask more open endedly, as nmoira said. Ask him for his opinion and then respect the answer you receive as his opinion.

It is normal :) I would keep going. Don't exect him to think like you , or to care, or to want to care. Gently gently perservere and you will find a way through with him.

[Reya]

ds: That they died. That's stupid.

 

....

 

He just doesn't want to discuss school stuff. He will talk about all kinds of other stuff.

 

What can I do? Why doesn't he want to think? Am I expecting too much?

 

If a kid that age pulled that on me, he'd find himself in his bedroom with an essay assignment. I reallyreallyreallyREALLY get irritated by that fake "I-can't-do-it" stuff if I know a child really can. If what they want is more attention, then fine--I'll give it to them some OTHER way! If they don't like the assignment, I'll take it into consideration for the future, but for now, tough toenails. The "that's stupid" just pushes it way over the edge. I would have said, in my iciest voice, "If it's stupid, then you do not need any more help. I expect you to give me a sentence to a paragraph with proper spelling and punctuation in your best handwriting fully answering the rest of these comprehension questions. You've lost the privilege of doing them orally." And he should be darned grateful that he didn't get all his electronics/tv/computer time suspended for at least a day.

 

(You can tell him I said so, if he think YOU'RE being mean by asking the questions in the first place!)

 

A longer-term solution might be to present him with a number of questions or discussion topics from which he can choose the ones that intrigue him most. Once the choice is his, he might warm up more to the process. Also, I'd make an effort to find books he'd be likely to enjoy reading and thinking about in the first place.

 

We make a big deal in our house that being smart is overcoming an intellectual obstacle, while being stupid is intellectual laziness. We don't give a whit for your native intelligence, really--here, smart and stupid are behaviors, not abilities.

[In The Great White North]

it sounds like the exercise is trying to force a grammar minded kid to think like a logic level kid.

 

:iagree: If he "wants to get the answer and move on," he is still grammar stage. So, yes, I do think you are asking too much. He doesn't get it.

 

You can cater to that for a year or two yet. Make the bulk of his work have black and white answers (When was the Battle of Bull Run?) as opposed to what he could see as opinions (Why was the Battle of Bull Run?) There's plenty of stuff he could still be memorizing (math, foreign languages, definitions, etc)

 

Introduce him to logic games and puzzles to help him develop the ability to analyze. When he gets really excited about something, ask a few leading questions. You will be able to tell by his answers when he is analyzing, as opposed to just adding more enthusiasm to his descriptions.

 

Hope this helps.

[MIch elle]

It sounds like your son does understand what you have been teaching him. Walking him through the thinking process, and showing him how to think it through are probably exactly where he is in his development right now - and that's fine! After you've walked him through it a number of times, he'll start saying, "I already know this mom! That passage means_____________, Duh!" and act like you're crazy for thinking he couldn't do all of the task himself.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

Cynthia,

 

Continue to be patient and walk him though the thinking process of how to get at the answer. CLE reading is new to him and more challenging than anything in reading he's used before. If you push too hard he will HATE CLE reading.

 

My oldest started using CLE reading in grade 7 for the first time and he was the same way, but he was a year or two older than your ds when using it. It was worth it to be patient, working closely with him at first, and taking time between lessons or lightunits for a break from it. He did "get it" after awhile and then could easily do the rest of CLE reading 7 and then CLE reading 8 without much discussion or help from me. It's prepared him well for high school work. CLE reading is SO worth it!

 

Blessings,

[Harriet Vane]

It does look like your ds doesn't like the process (saying it's stupid, lol).

 

However, the task of analyzing literature is much more difficult when expected to determine "what it means" without having looked at some of the details first.

 

I would suggest you start with questions about the smaller details of the text, as you did in the course of your conversation. After having thoroughly covered the smaller details, then you can ask something like, "So what is the author's main point?" Often after picking apart the details the main point is readily obvious. Also, having scrutinized the details, his understanding of the passage will be richer.

 

Another suggestion, though, is to talk about classroom manners together. It's always a temptation to be uber-casual about everything--it's one benefit of homeschooling. However, he would not be allowed to make comments about something being "stupid" in a traditional classroom. If he objects to the work, he can plead his case respectfully, giving examples to support his case. If you, as the teacher, have determined that the course of study stands as is, though, then he needs to answer questions respectfully even if he is bored silly. Once the two of you clearly understand each other on this, each and every time he is rude about participating there needs to be a consequence of some sort. I don't necessarily mean being mean or punitive. Some consequences might be to have him write the analysis since he is unable to dialogue nicely about it, or possibly have him continue the dialogue with his father instead of you. Another option might be a cup of M&Ms--each time he is cheerful and respectful in his response, he gets a candy, and each time he is rude he loses five. The purpose of that is simply to train him to pay attention to his tone and his words in a lighthearted way.

 

JMHO--YMMV.

[Hoggirl]

The dialogue I presented was not verbatim. I am not sure, but I probably did ask him what do YOU think it means. I was trying to get out the fact that I got a LOT of, "I don't know; just tell me the answer."

 

He has done lots of logic-type problems - all the Dandylion stuff. And we have worked through the majority of the Fallacy Detective. In addition, he is accelerated in math and is currently doing Chalkdust Geometry. He clicks through those proofs with relatively ease (I NEVER got those in school! :lol:)

So, I guess it frustrates me because I see this dichotomy between what I believe he is capable of and what I see him doing...at least in the discussion realm.

 

The language stuff is fascinating. I absolutely see what you mean about understanding but not yet being able to express it well. Thank you!

 

Perhaps I should consider it more of a discipline issue. I will ponder that some more. He is definitely in puberty, and I am trying to show him some grace. I have certainly taken away screen time privileges in the past, but I just didn't feel it was appropriate. He was clearly upset with himself for not being able to get it. But clearly he had an unwillingness to work with me and desired to "hurry up" and finish. He was just wasn't in the mood to do it. He did apologize quite sincerely later on. But, I think the one poster is right...he was just not getting metaphor!

 

I will continue to be patient, and I will continue to try to elicit responses. But, I will heed your advice and try to be more open-ended with it. I probably was looking for THE right answer. If he had said anything else and could defend it, then that would have been far different from, "I don't know; just tell me the answer."

 

I so appreciate the experience and wisdom here! Thank you!

[Reya]

If he really was trying and not getting it, I'd have him s-l-o-w down for a second and take a deep breath so he can have space to think in, if that makes sense. It might also help to look at the big picture before explaining any of the parts.

 

I also might let him take a break on that subject and come back later with a fresher brain.

 

I was assuming, from the post, that he wasn't willing to make an effort, period, not that he was trying to make an effort but coming up short of what you know he can do! Those are two different issues, I think. (And not being able to do it at all is a third, of course.)

[LilyK]

I heartily agree that this is a boy thing. My son has a gang load of friends. He and 90% of his friends would have given you the same attitude, including the "that's stupid" comment. Sorry, I laughed out loud when I read that. However, my experience has been that right around the middle of high school, boys do tend to "get it', oftentimes, better than the girls, when it comes to analytical thinking. (I have been in numerous high school co-ops) The common thread that I have seen with these amazing teenage "thinkers" is a lot of patience from the homeschooling mom, and a TON of read a louds. Hang in there. Sometimes I think the stuff is stupid too, so I can certainly understand an 11-year-old BOY thinking so.

[5wolfcubs]

We're using CLE for the first time this year. My dd (13yo) is struggling w/ CLE Reading 7, it is tough for her. Both from a conceptual standpoint and a getting it into words, in a complete sentence, on paper. The best time for me to work with her, uninterrupted by younger siblings, is after 9pm at night. However, neither of us really want to be doing it then... Sometimes I read the answer from the answer key and we discuss it. I'm hoping as the year goes on it will get easier for her to formulate her thoughts coherently.

 

I appreciate the replies in this thread -- given me more to think about! :)