"Country First" for Sarah Palin?

[astrid]

This has been bothering me today, and I"d like to get some different points of view.

 

Not very long ago, many, many members of this forum had a field day casting aspersions on Michelle Obama's comments about her seemingly newfound pride in her country. I understand that Mrs. Obama's comment was dismaying to many, and many of you rightly voiced your opinions here. I'm fine with that. I think the comment was a bit, um, ill-advised as well.

 

To be honest, I"m really left wondering about Mrs. Palin's patriotism now that it's been established that she and her husband spent most of the '90's as members of a group whose sole purpose was to achieve Alaska's secession from the Union. I mean, she stood there with McCain, in front of a podium that says, "Country First" on Friday. How can she offer to lead all fifty states when in the not-too-distant past she spent a good deal of time toying with the idea of taking the one she lives in out of the union?

 

Those of you who were deeply offended by Michelle Obama's comments--- how do you reconcile this in your own mind? Political differences aside, I just can't get past the notion that Sarah Palin was truly not vetted well at all. And that reflects poorly on McCain's judgement, IMHO.

 

What say you?

 

astrid

[sdWTMer]

This has been bothering me today, and I"d like to get some different points of view.

 

Not very long ago, many, many members of this forum had a field day casting aspersions on Michelle Obama's comments about her seemingly newfound pride in her country. I understand that Mrs. Obama's comment was dismaying to many, and many of you rightly voiced your opinions here. I'm fine with that. I think the comment was a bit, um, ill-advised as well.

 

To be honest, I"m really left wondering about Mrs. Palin's patriotism now that it's been established that she and her husband spent most of the '90's as members of a group whose sole purpose was to achieve Alaska's secession from the Union. I mean, she stood there with McCain, in front of a podium that says, "Country First" on Friday. How can she offer to lead all fifty states when in the not-too-distant past she spent a good deal of time toying with the idea of taking the one she lives in out of the union?

 

Those of you who were deeply offended by Michelle Obama's comments--- how do you reconcile this in your own mind? Political differences aside, I just can't get past the notion that Sarah Palin was truly not vetted well at all. And that reflects poorly on McCain's judgement, IMHO.

 

What say you?

 

astrid

 

Doesn't bother me, I never said anything about Michelle either.

 

I'm a native Texan and I've always said that if they were going to secede, I'd go back in a heartbeat! Before they close the borders anyway. :D

[Elaine]

This has been bothering me today, and I"d like to get some different points of view.

 

Not very long ago, many, many members of this forum had a field day casting aspersions on Michelle Obama's comments about her seemingly newfound pride in her country. I understand that Mrs. Obama's comment was dismaying to many, and many of you rightly voiced your opinions here. I'm fine with that. I think the comment was a bit, um, ill-advised as well.

 

To be honest, I"m really left wondering about Mrs. Palin's patriotism now that it's been established that she and her husband spent most of the '90's as members of a group whose sole purpose was to achieve Alaska's secession from the Union. I mean, she stood there with McCain, in front of a podium that says, "Country First" on Friday. How can she offer to lead all fifty states when in the not-too-distant past she spent a good deal of time toying with the idea of taking the one she lives in out of the union?

 

Those of you who were deeply offended by Michelle Obama's comments--- how do you reconcile this in your own mind? Political differences aside, I just can't get past the notion that Sarah Palin was truly not vetted well at all. And that reflects poorly on McCain's judgement, IMHO.

 

What say you?

 

astrid

 

 

This article says that she isn't a member of that group and has been a registered Republican since the early 80's.

[LisaKinVA]

This is a rumor that was recently proven false.

 

She was never a registered member of the party, she visited the convention as a matter of polite courtesy -- since it was being held in the town in which she was mayor.

 

She and her husband have been registered Republicans since '82

 

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/clay-waters/2008/09/02/nyt-questions-palins-parenting-bumiller-flubs-palins-aip-membership

 

I found this referenced several places... not just "conservative sites."

 

Anyhow...

[Elaine]

This has been bothering me today, and I"d like to get some different points of view.

 

Not very long ago, many, many members of this forum had a field day casting aspersions on Michelle Obama's comments about her seemingly newfound pride in her country. I understand that Mrs. Obama's comment was dismaying to many, and many of you rightly voiced your opinions here. I'm fine with that. I think the comment was a bit, um, ill-advised as well.

 

To be honest, I"m really left wondering about Mrs. Palin's patriotism now that it's been established that she and her husband spent most of the '90's as members of a group whose sole purpose was to achieve Alaska's secession from the Union. I mean, she stood there with McCain, in front of a podium that says, "Country First" on Friday. How can she offer to lead all fifty states when in the not-too-distant past she spent a good deal of time toying with the idea of taking the one she lives in out of the union?

 

Those of you who were deeply offended by Michelle Obama's comments--- how do you reconcile this in your own mind? Political differences aside, I just can't get past the notion that Sarah Palin was truly not vetted well at all. And that reflects poorly on McCain's judgement, IMHO.

 

What say you?

 

astrid

 

 

I have to add, though, that I see these as two different issues. Sarah Palin, if she wanted Alaska to secede, did so because she is proud of her state. Michelle Obama's comment was directly about the US as whole and how she was, likely, never proud of it until now.

 

Does that make sense??:001_smile: I am a little fuzzy headed as I am getting a cold and have been doing Nyquil shots.

[Jami]

I had heard that there has been a mis-reporting with regard to the Alaska Independence Party, the last I saw it had been clarified that yes, Gov. Palin spoke at the convention for the AIP when it met in Wasilla and she was the mayor. But that she had not been a member of the party.

 

Perhaps you could share your link showing that the Palins "spent most of the 90s" as members in the party?

 

I guess I'm not sure that it's that important, I feel for Alaska...way up there, on its own, only in the union for 50 or so years now. Heck, there are Texans that still think Texas should be its own country! And states in the South....

 

It does seem to show a potentially sloppy vetting process though, if true and unknown. And I don't know anything about Michelle Obama's comments, I think I missed those. Could you link a source?

 

Jami

[PariSarah]

. . . it's been established that she and her husband spent most of the '90's as members of a group whose sole purpose was to achieve Alaska's secession from the Union.

 

I read that her husband registered a couple of times as a third-party voter, and that the party in question had as its primary goal the return of federal lands to state control. I am just not up on all these twists and turns.

 

Maybe it's a good thing, because I also never read anything that put me up in a dither about Michelle Obama, either.

[astrid]

I have to add, though, that I see these as two different issues. Sarah Palin, if she wanted Alaska to secede, did so because she is proud of her state. Michelle Obama's comment was directly about the US as whole and how she was, likely, never proud of it until now.

 

Does that make sense??:001_smile: I am a little fuzzy headed as I am getting a cold and have been doing Nyquil shots.

 

Nyquil can mess with your head, Elaine ! Hope you feel better soon and can get off the stuff! :-)

 

And no, I see it differently, because Michelle Obama is not running for office, but Palin is. BIG difference.

 

astrid

[Jackie in AR]

This has been bothering me today, and I"d like to get some different points of view.

 

Not very long ago, many, many members of this forum had a field day casting aspersions on Michelle Obama's comments about her seemingly newfound pride in her country. I understand that Mrs. Obama's comment was dismaying to many, and many of you rightly voiced your opinions here. I'm fine with that. I think the comment was a bit, um, ill-advised as well.

 

To be honest, I"m really left wondering about Mrs. Palin's patriotism now that it's been established that she and her husband spent most of the '90's as members of a group whose sole purpose was to achieve Alaska's secession from the Union. I mean, she stood there with McCain, in front of a podium that says, "Country First" on Friday. How can she offer to lead all fifty states when in the not-too-distant past she spent a good deal of time toying with the idea of taking the one she lives in out of the union?

 

Those of you who were deeply offended by Michelle Obama's comments--- how do you reconcile this in your own mind? Political differences aside, I just can't get past the notion that Sarah Palin was truly not vetted well at all. And that reflects poorly on McCain's judgement, IMHO.

 

What say you?

 

astrid

 

Would you provide a link for these charges, astrid?

[Parabola]

This article says that she isn't a member of that group and has been a registered Republican since the early 80's.

 

Maybe she was a member as in attended meetings, but not a member as in changed her political registration? She could be both.

 

 

Hope you feel better Elaine. Nyquil rocks, so hopefully it will do you good. :)

[Elaine]

Nyquil can mess with your head, Elaine ! Hope you feel better soon and can get off the stuff! :-)

 

And no, I see it differently, because Michelle Obama is not running for office, but Palin is. BIG difference.

 

astrid

 

I see your point. :001_smile:

[astrid]

Would you provide a link for these charges, astrid?

 

Here is one.

 

This is what CBS News has to say.

 

And HERE is a story that was just changed within the hour to say that only her husband was a member, not her, though she attended meetings. When I checked it earlier it was reported that she was a member as well.

 

And then there's the car wash issue.

 

Astrid

[rowan-tree]

Doesn't bother me, I never said anything about Michelle either.

 

I'm a native Texan and I've always said that if they were going to secede, I'd go back in a heartbeat! Before they close the borders anyway. :D

 

:iagree: I'm a native Mississippian and my great grandfathers died fighting for the right of self-government. Implicit in the idea of sec***ion is that local community comes first. And I'm all for that. This does not mean we can't have broader loyalties, even world-wide loyalties.

[Jackie in AR]

Here is one.

 

This is what CBS News has to say.

 

And HERE is a story that was just changed within the hour to say that only her husband was a member, not her, though she attended meetings. When I checked it earlier it was reported that she was a member as well.

 

And then there's the car wash issue.

 

Astrid

 

I'm not going to click on any of these links until they determine what their "facts" are. This discussion should probably wait until then.

[hsmamainva]

:iagree: I'm a native Mississippian and my great grandfathers died fighting for the right of self-government. Implicit in the idea of sec***ion is that local community comes first. And I'm all for that. This does not mean we can't have broader loyalties, even world-wide loyalties.

 

My mother always used to say, "Save your Confederate dollars, for the South shall rise again." Might wise words. :D :lol:

[MomofSeven]

I see your point. :001_smile:

 

Michelle Obama inserts herself into the political process by speaking on behalf of her husband and we're not allowed to question what she says? That's ridiculous. If she's going to campaign on BO's behalf then she must accept the consequences. Agreed she's not running for office, but she is out there campaigning.

[tibbyl]

.

[kokotg]

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/todd_palin_was_registered_memb.php

 

This afternoon, the director of Division of Elections in Alaska, Gail Fenumiai, told TPMmuckraker that Todd Palin registered in October 1995 to the Alaska Independence Party, a radical group that advocates for Alaskan secession from the United States.

 

Besides a short period of a few months in 2000 when he changed his registration to undeclared, Todd Palin remained a registered member of AIP until July 2002 when he registered again as an undeclared voter.

 

Her husband was certainly a member.

 

I'm not really sure the McCain camp is going to pick up on the "secession isn't such a bad idea!" response that some are espousing here ;)

[Parabola]

Could you please explain to me how the desire to secede from the United States of America can be reconciled with loyalty to the United States?

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you but the two seem mutually exclusive to me. You can be neighborly buy loyal to the U.S. if you wish to not be a part of U.S.

 

Yes it seems oxymoronic to me as well. You can either be a part of this country and loyal to it.

 

Or you can be a different country and loyal to that one. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't be a different country and still loyal to this one. Thats called treason. :)

[MomofSeven]

This has been bothering me today, and I"d like to get some different points of view.

 

Not very long ago, many, many members of this forum had a field day casting aspersions on Michelle Obama's comments about her seemingly newfound pride in her country. I understand that Mrs. Obama's comment was dismaying to many, and many of you rightly voiced your opinions here. I'm fine with that. I think the comment was a bit, um, ill-advised as well.

 

To be honest, I"m really left wondering about Mrs. Palin's patriotism now that it's been established that she and her husband spent most of the '90's as members of a group whose sole purpose was to achieve Alaska's secession from the Union. I mean, she stood there with McCain, in front of a podium that says, "Country First" on Friday. How can she offer to lead all fifty states when in the not-too-distant past she spent a good deal of time toying with the idea of taking the one she lives in out of the union?

 

Those of you who were deeply offended by Michelle Obama's comments--- how do you reconcile this in your own mind? Political differences aside, I just can't get past the notion that Sarah Palin was truly not vetted well at all. And that reflects poorly on McCain's judgement, IMHO.

 

What say you?

 

astrid

 

 

You are making a huge assumption that these rumors are fact. I say rumors, because the left wing attack machine is digging up all kinds of dirt on this woman and her family. This is just one of many. It's interesting how they throw everything at the wall, more things than any one person can respond to ina 24 hour period, and hope something sticks. Apparently this accusation stuck with you. But there's no proof whatsoever that SP was involved in AIP. But now, thanks to the media of personal destruction, SP has to defend herself against yet another smear tactic.

[tibbyl]

Michelle Obama inserts herself into the political process by speaking on behalf of her husband and we're not allowed to question what she says? That's ridiculous. If she's going to campaign on BO's behalf then she must accept the consequences. Agreed she's not running for office, but she is out there campaigning.

 

I understand you to be saying that any comments of family member who campaigns for their relative are fair game for dissection.

[sdWTMer]

Then let's take all the hyphenated Americans off. How does that show loyalty?

 

I guess that you can say I'm a proud Texan American. :D

[Parabola]

You are making a huge assumption that these rumors are fact. I say rumors, because the left wing attack machine is digging up all kinds of dirt on this woman and her family. This is just one of many. It's interesting how they throw everything at the wall, more things than any one person can respond to ina 24 hour period, and hope something sticks. Apparently this accusation stuck with you. But there's no proof whatsoever that SP was involved in AIP. But now, thanks to the media of personal destruction, SP has to defend herself against yet another smear tactic.

 

The "left wing attack machine" (heh, cool name), is not responsible for these rumors. The media is driving it. You can call the media liberal, but if you do I'm just gonna laugh because I've seen Fox News. :P

 

As for facts, there do seem to be some facts, as in personal witnesses, that have placed Palin at AIP meetings, beyond what would normally be done by a governor. Now, its word against word at this point, so no one side really has the right to call "no proof" on the other side.

 

And she wouldn't have had to be defending herself YET AGAIN if she had been vetted properly.

[kokotg]

You are making a huge assumption that these rumors are fact. I say rumors, because the left wing attack machine is digging up all kinds of dirt on this woman and her family. This is just one of many. It's interesting how they throw everything at the wall, more things than any one person can respond to ina 24 hour period, and hope something sticks. Apparently this accusation stuck with you. But there's no proof whatsoever that SP was involved in AIP. But now, thanks to the media of personal destruction, SP has to defend herself against yet another smear tactic.

 

barring an all out conspiracy on the part of the Division of Elections in Alaska, her husband was a member of the party. The McCain camp acknowledges that she attended their 2000 convention. That is involvement. It may not be, to you, problematic involvement, but it is involvement and it's entirely fair game for journalists to ask her about it. Only they CAN'T ask her about it, because the McCain campaign has canceled all her public appearances.

[Parabola]

They've cancelled all her appearances? WOW.

[kokotg]

That's what CBS was reporting today. As far as I know, the only time she's been made available to the press since the VP announcement was her interview with People magazine. If anyone has news to the contrary, I'm happy to be corrected.

[hsmamainva]

Correct me if I'm wrong -- and I might be because this whole thing is swirling faster than I can keep up with -- but didn't CNN report today that she wouldn't be addressing the Republican National Convention? Or were they just saying that she wouldn't be addressing them tonight (as in it's just a scheduling change?)

 

I can't believe the VP candidate wouldn't speak at the RNC!

 

And CNN also ran a report that John McCain hasn't had an open interview (as in question and answer session) with any members of the media since mid-August.

[astrid]

"Do we want a President who sees nothing wrong with leaving live babies out to die?

 

Because I just don't see it as that way.

 

astrid

[Jami]

Correct me if I'm wrong -- and I might be because this whole thing is swirling faster than I can keep up with -- but didn't CNN report today that she wouldn't be addressing the Republican National Convention? Or were they just saying that she wouldn't be addressing them tonight (as in it's just a scheduling change?)

 

I can't believe the VP candidate wouldn't speak at the RNC!

 

And CNN also ran a report that John McCain hasn't had an open interview (as in question and answer session) with any members of the media since mid-August.

 

David Brooks on the Lehrer News Hour said she has been working on her speech, so I assume she's speaking. He also mentioned that she hasn't had other interviews because so much of her time has been working on the speech. FWIW.

[Parabola]

I just heard that she is still speaking at the RNC.

[kokotg]

To clarify--I didn't mean to suggest I had heard (or CBS reported) that she'd never make a public appearance again (or, specifically, not speak at the convention). They said that over the past two days she HAS canceled all her public events and that she has not answered questions from the press since the announcement aside from the People interview.

[Laurie4b]

Where has it been established? I haven't read it anywhere reputable. Is it rumor ?

[kokotg]

Where has it been established? I haven't read it anywhere reputable. Is it rumor ?

 

is what rumor?

[Spy Car]

:iagree: I'm a native Mississippian and my great grandfathers died fighting for the right of self-government.

 

Which includes enslaving other human beings?

 

Bill

[GraceinMD]

To be honest, I"m really left wondering about Mrs. Palin's patriotism now that it's been established that she and her husband spent most of the '90's as members of a group whose sole purpose was to achieve Alaska's secession from the Union.

 

when in the not-too-distant past she spent a good deal of time toying with the idea of taking the one she lives in out of the union?

 

 

You know, Astrid, the current head of the AIP is quoted on ABC: "She says it's not accurate to describe the party as secessionist." I assume that this person should know, and to quote you, "I'm really left wondering about" your fact-checking.

 

If you know that you are not going to vote for Mr. McCain, that's fine by me. If you want to try to persuade others to not vote for Mr. McCain, that's fine by me. If you want to try to persuade others to vote for Mr. Obama, that's fine by me.

 

But I think it's very discourteous and damaging for you to come here and insert phrases like "it's been established" and "she spent a good deal of time" when it seems there is not actual evidence to support that. You might even have a link, but to state something as FACT under the guise of innocently "wondering" about others' opinions is beyond the pale. (Yes, I know there are links to just about anything we want to find - there are probably "earth is flat" links, too; it doesn't make them true.)

 

You are absolutely, completely right that there are threads on/from the "other" side that are just as mean-spirited, but since you are aware of them and think them (I gather) unfair, WHY GO THERE yourself?

 

(BTW, my political leaning is currently pointing toward 'generally disgusted'.)

[astrid]

Which includes enslaving other human beings?

 

Bill

 

You said it, I didn't.

 

astrid

[Elaine]

Which includes enslaving other human beings?

 

Bill

 

Where was that even mentioned??

 

 

Sheesh.

 

 

Note to self: Stay away from all political threads.

[Parabola]

The AIP says the statement that they are secessionist is inaccurate, they go on to say that what they want is to bring the vote of whether or not to secede to the people. Thats what they are/were fighting for. Semantics.

[Elaine]

You know, Astrid, the current head of the AIP is quoted on ABC: "She says it's not accurate to describe the party as secessionist." I assume that this person should know, and to quote you, "I'm really left wondering about" your fact-checking.

 

If you know that you are not going to vote for Mr. McCain, that's fine by me. If you want to try to persuade others to not vote for Mr. McCain, that's fine by me. If you want to try to persuade others to vote for Mr. Obama, that's fine by me.

 

But I think it's very discourteous and damaging for you to come here and insert phrases like "it's been established" and "she spent a good deal of time" when it seems there is not actual evidence to support that. You might even have a link, but to state something as FACT under the guise of innocently "wondering" about others' opinions is beyond the pale. (Yes, I know there are links to just about anything we want to find - there are probably "earth is flat" links, too; it doesn't make them true.)

 

You are absolutely, completely right that there are threads on/from the "other" side that are just as mean-spirited, but since you are aware of them and think them (I gather) unfair, WHY GO THERE yourself?

 

(BTW, my political leaning is currently pointing toward 'generally disgusted'.)

 

:iagree: Grace, as soon as I have more rep, you are first on my list!

 

 

OK, now I am really done.:001_smile:

[Parabola]

But I think it's very discourteous and damaging for you to come here and insert phrases like "it's been established" and "she spent a good deal of time" when it seems there is not actual evidence to support that.

 

There does seem to be some evidence to support that she did spend "a good deal" (which is subjective, so open to interpretation) of time involved with that party in ways beyond which is called for by the average governor. The people of this party report her being at meetings. This so far is the only evidence I've heard, it'd be nice to get concrete evidence either way so this can be put to bed.

[Laura in VA]

:iagree: Grace, as soon as I have more rep, you are first on my list!

 

 

OK, now I am really done.:001_smile:

 

I got her, Elaine!

[rowan-tree]

Yes it seems oxymoronic to me as well. You can either be a part of this country and loyal to it.

 

Or you can be a different country and loyal to that one. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't be a different country and still loyal to this one. Thats called treason. :)

 

It's a question of degree. Jesus 1st, then family, neighbor, community, inter-dependent community [i.e., state] (within reasonable geo-spacial human limitations), then country.

[astrid]

You know, Astrid, the current head of the AIP is quoted on ABC: "She says it's not accurate to describe the party as secessionist." I assume that this person should know, and to quote you, "I'm really left wondering about" your fact-checking.

 

If you know that you are not going to vote for Mr. McCain, that's fine by me. If you want to try to persuade others to not vote for Mr. McCain, that's fine by me. If you want to try to persuade others to vote for Mr. Obama, that's fine by me.

 

But I think it's very discourteous and damaging for you to come here and insert phrases like "it's been established" and "she spent a good deal of time" when it seems there is not actual evidence to support that. You might even have a link, but to state something as FACT under the guise of innocently "wondering" about others' opinions is beyond the pale. (Yes, I know there are links to just about anything we want to find - there are probably "earth is flat" links, too; it doesn't make them true.)

 

You are absolutely, completely right that there are threads on/from the "other" side that are just as mean-spirited, but since you are aware of them and think them (I gather) unfair, WHY GO THERE yourself?

 

(BTW, my political leaning is currently pointing toward 'generally disgusted'.)

 

Thanks for your thoughts. And for the record, I really DO want to know how those of you who support Mrs. Palin and cast aspersions against Mrs. Obama for a similar sentiment reconcile the two. It was others who took this thread in a different direction. I fail to see how being involved in any level with secessionist activity does not raise flags about a person's committment to this country. Republican, Democrat, Independent, whatever.

 

And no, I'm not interested in persuading others to vote for Obama. This has been a very enlightening thread. Thanks for your thoughts, and despite your apparent low opinion of me, I wish you peace and a pleasant evening.

 

astrid

[rowan-tree]

Which includes enslaving other human beings?

 

Bill

 

Do you really want to start it up again with me? Right away, I can see the fog of historical reconstruction like a green smog around your already dimmed vision.

[Parabola]

It's a question of degree. Jesus 1st, then family, neighbor, community, inter-dependent community [i.e., state] (within reasonable geo-spacial human limitations), then country.

 

Now thats your ranking.

 

And if Alaska seceded, it wouldn't be a state anymore. OK? It would be another country. So where in that ranking do you put another country, that is not the US?

[hsmamainva]

Do you really want to start it up again with me? Right away, I can see the fog of historical reconstruction like a green smog around your already dimmed vision.

 

:lurk5:

[Parabola]

Do you really want to start it up again with me? Right away, I can see the fog of historical reconstruction like a green smog around your already dimmed vision.

 

Now thats pretty rude, no matter what. Have you read the rules? Ad hominen attacks are not allowed. And from what I understand, this is not your first. I would suggest you tread lightly.

[rowan-tree]

Now thats your ranking.

 

And if Alaska seceded, it wouldn't be a state anymore. OK? It would be another country. So where in that ranking do you put another country, that is not the US?

 

After the US? Or is this a trick question.

[Spy Car]

Do you really want to start it up again with me? Right away, I can see the fog of historical reconstruction like a green smog around your already dimmed vision.

 

Is it "historical reconstruction" to acknowledge "the South" allowed the enslavement of human beings and fought a war to maintain this "peculiar institution"?

[Parabola]

After the US? Or is this a trick question.

So if you lived in Alaska and then Alaska seceded, you would put the US before Alaska? You are now in Alaska, maybe even the governor of the state, its a whole new country. Loyalty to the US would probably be frowned upon. Do you now see the contradiction?