Struggling reader

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

My 7yo DD is in 2nd grade. We have been working on learning to read for 2 years now and the progress is extremely slow. I guess she might be considered a young 2nd grader as her birthday is in September. She does very well in math and just seems to grasp mathematical concepts quickly and easily. We do a lot of it together/orally as she gets distracted very easily and bored if we stay on one topic for too long. She just writes most of the numbers backwards. She likes handwriting/copywork - especially the cursive that we started this year. We don't do any spelling or grammar yet as I don't start those until reading is under control. She likes to write and writes lots of notes to her friends and captions for pictures her but nothing is spelled correctly or even close to correctly. (My 10yo DD is also a "creative" speller.)  But the reading....well, it just doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere.

 

I have never used a phonics/reading curriculum. I teach the letter sounds and some blending and then we start the Abeka readers. I teach new sounds/letter combinations as we come to them in the readers. This method worked perfectly fine with my older 2. My oldest was reading Little House on the Prairie at 6 and my second DD, while getting off to a bit of slower start, was really doing well by 7. This third DD however is still struggling very slowly through the 1st grade Abeka readers - and we're not even halfway through those. She seems to do okay reading stories but individual words are a disaster. Also, she mixes up all the little words (a, and, the, of) almost every time. She still mixes up b's, d's, p's, and q's with each other. Q's are always pronounces as a "p" and most p's are read as a "b" or "d". She doesn't really complain about having to read and she loves to check out 5 or 6 books from the library each week. She is very picky about her library books though and won't pick anything too hard. Mostly she gets the earliest of the beginning readers; no Frog and Toad or Amelia Bedelia, or Fancy Nancy yet because they're "too hard". Her favorites that she can read pretty comfortably are the Elephant and Piggy series. She happily reads her library books every night at bed time without any prompting from me. 

 

I have no idea what to do. On the one hand I tell myself that other kids her age may have been red-shirted and only be in 1st grade so maybe she isn't doing so bad. Also, I've heard that it can still be "normal" for kids not to really start to read until 8. Maybe she's on that end of normal and I shouldn just give it more time. On the other hand, I keep thinking that something I am doing is not working and I really need to do something about it. But what? Probably try a reading or phonics curriculum to start with. I have no idea what's good or where to start looking. Should we look into testing? I've thought of the possibility of some sort of learning disability like dyslexia. I've looked at tests for dyslexia online but so many of the questions seem to be specific to a child in school (labeled as lazy or a troublemaker, poor self esteem from lagging behind peers, etc.). We don't have those sorts of problems because we can work at her own pace and all her friends are homeschooled and working at their own pace.  I don't really know how I would go about getting testing. I wouldn't want to go through the school system I don't think. Things in our state are up in the air in regards to regulating home schooling with several proposals in the works that homeschoolers aren't happy about. I prefer to stay of the radar for now. Private testing seems quite expensive but maybe our insurance would cover part of it. I keep reading how important it is to get testing done sooner rather than later so kids have an easier time catching up. I don't want to over react though.

 

Right now she is happy with how she reads and has no idea that I'm worried that there may be a problem. I don't want to stress her out about it by jumping into testing too quickly or making a bunch of changes. But I feel like I need to do something. Any advice or suggestions?

 

Sorry for the rambling. This is how my worried mama brain works late at night....

[OneStepAtATime]

It could easily be dyslexia.  You won't know without an assessment.  An assessment might also point out other areas that are causing these difficulties and it might also point out tremendous strengths you haven't even tapped into yet.  An assessment will give you better answers instead of guessing.  

 

Best option might be a neuropsychologist since they usually give a much more thorough assessment covering many bases. 

 

I would read up first, though, so you know what you want to ask them and can tell if they have a clue what they are doing (not all do).  Read The Mislabeled Child and The Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide.  Homeschooling Your Struggling Learner by Kathy Kuhl is good, too.  The Learning Abled Website and Sandy Cooks books you can find on there will also probably help.  Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz is also helpful.  

 

You might also look through the website I linked below and see if anything there speaks to you.  You don't have to buy the program.  Susan is just a really great person and wants to help.  You might find some quick, helpful, free info on her website that might help you fill in some info:

http://www.bartonreading.com/dys.html

 

And yes, if your child has any learning challenges, the early you get them diagnosed and addressed the better the chances of remediating the issues while also tapping into the strengths.

 

FWIW, dyslexic students are usually extremely bright, and many have amazing gifts.  They just need a different approach, and usually a much slower and more systematic approach, to things like reading/grammar.  If it turns out your child has dyslexia, don't despair.  In many ways that may mean she has special gifts, not just weaknesses.

 

You might post on the Learning Challenges board for more insight/help.

 

Hugs and good luck.

 

 

[Ellie]

My 7yo DD is in 2nd grade. We have been working on learning to read for 2 years now and the progress is extremely slow. I guess she might be considered a young 2nd grader as her birthday is in September. She does very well in math and just seems to grasp mathematical concepts quickly and easily. We do a lot of it together/orally as she gets distracted very easily and bored if we stay on one topic for too long. She just writes most of the numbers backwards. She likes handwriting/copywork - especially the cursive that we started this year. We don't do any spelling or grammar yet as I don't start those until reading is under control. She likes to write and writes lots of notes to her friends and captions for pictures her but nothing is spelled correctly or even close to correctly. (My 10yo DD is also a "creative" speller.)  But the reading....well, it just doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere.

 

I have never used a phonics/reading curriculum. I teach the letter sounds and some blending and then we start the Abeka readers. I teach new sounds/letter combinations as we come to them in the readers. This method worked perfectly fine with my older 2. My oldest was reading Little House on the Prairie at 6 and my second DD, while getting off to a bit of slower start, was really doing well by 7. This third DD however is still struggling very slowly through the 1st grade Abeka readers - and we're not even halfway through those. She seems to do okay reading stories but individual words are a disaster. Also, she mixes up all the little words (a, and, the, of) almost every time. She still mixes up b's, d's, p's, and q's with each other. Q's are always pronounces as a "p" and most p's are read as a "b" or "d". She doesn't really complain about having to read and she loves to check out 5 or 6 books from the library each week. She is very picky about her library books though and won't pick anything too hard. Mostly she gets the earliest of the beginning readers; no Frog and Toad or Amelia Bedelia, or Fancy Nancy yet because they're "too hard". Her favorites that she can read pretty comfortably are the Elephant and Piggy series. She happily reads her library books every night at bed time without any prompting from me. 

 

I have no idea what to do. On the one hand I tell myself that other kids her age may have been red-shirted and only be in 1st grade so maybe she isn't doing so bad. Also, I've heard that it can still be "normal" for kids not to really start to read until 8. Maybe she's on that end of normal and I shouldn just give it more time. On the other hand, I keep thinking that something I am doing is not working and I really need to do something about it. But what? Probably try a reading or phonics curriculum to start with. I have no idea what's good or where to start looking. Should we look into testing? I've thought of the possibility of some sort of learning disability like dyslexia. I've looked at tests for dyslexia online but so many of the questions seem to be specific to a child in school (labeled as lazy or a troublemaker, poor self esteem from lagging behind peers, etc.). We don't have those sorts of problems because we can work at her own pace and all her friends are homeschooled and working at their own pace.  I don't really know how I would go about getting testing. I wouldn't want to go through the school system I don't think. Things in our state are up in the air in regards to regulating home schooling with several proposals in the works that homeschoolers aren't happy about. I prefer to stay of the radar for now. Private testing seems quite expensive but maybe our insurance would cover part of it. I keep reading how important it is to get testing done sooner rather than later so kids have an easier time catching up. I don't want to over react though.

 

Right now she is happy with how she reads and has no idea that I'm worried that there may be a problem. I don't want to stress her out about it by jumping into testing too quickly or making a bunch of changes. But I feel like I need to do something. Any advice or suggestions?

 

Sorry for the rambling. This is how my worried mama brain works late at night....

 

You said you have never used a phonics/reading curriculum. Perhaps now is the time to do that, before you assume that she needs testing. Also, because she seems happy, I wouldn't say that she is "struggling."

 

As you might be able to tell from my siggy, my recommendation would be Spalding. It covers everything she needs to know.

[PeterPan]

It would be interesting to get her vision checked, just to make sure there's not an obvious solution like needing glasses.  If you go to a developmental optometrist (find through COVD.org) you can get the normal vision exam but have them *screen* for the developmental stuff while they're at it.  Costs the same as a normal doc but gives you that extra info.  

 

Even though many kids with dyslexia will have spatial issues that result in them having reversal issues, right now the actually diagnosis is Reading Disorder and will be based SOLELY on phonemic awareness, not on vision AT ALL.  Seriously.  So if you go to Barton and do the pretest, you'll get a rough sense of where she's at with her phonemic awareness and working memory.  If she fails that, you definitely, definitely have a problem and need to get some evals.  A 5 yo should be able to pass that test, so if a 7 yo doesn't pass it you definitely need to find out why.  

 

Really though, beyond that, you really haven't said a lot about her actual reading.  Yes, you might want to consider grade-adjusting.  In our state she would be a 1st grader, and as a 1st grader she may be fine, dunno.  She's actually decoding, blending, etc.?  She's just not progressing as quickly as you would have hoped?  If that's the case and she passes the Barton pretest, it might be simply grade-adjusting her solves your problem, presto.

 

Although I'm a huge fan of all methods of explicit instruction (SWR, WRTR, Barton, LOE, whatever), it does sound like your methodology has been explicit.  Has she had any issues with actual phonemic awareness?  Ability to blend or recognize sounds?  Or is it all visual stuff like visual memory, spatial orientation, etc.?  

 

Definitely do the Barton pretest, because it's free and will give you some information right away.  It's not a dyslexia test, but it's still informative.  If you pursue evals, you're looking for some kind of psychologist.  They can do a CTOPP or similar test of phonological processing as part of their battery and that will let you know for certain where she's at.  That's what you'd be looking for.  

 

I will say that the problems you're describing are easily correctable with Barton.  However Barton may be overkill, just depends on what's going on.

[Sugarfoot]

Your DD sounds A LOT like my oldest DS. You have one major advantage over me in that she's not your oldest :) One of the major things that the educational psychologist said that stuck with me was that my DS's results just weren't equaling the amount of effort we were both putting into his reading. In other words, we were both sort of spinning our wheels, making only small gains that sometimes disappeared the next day or week. 

 

We did seek testing through a private educational psychologist. He had an evaluation by a developmental optometrist (mentioned in OhElizabeth's post) and needed several months of vision therapy, as well. He was diagnosed with Dyslexia-moderate to severe.

 

FWIW, one of the most helpful pieces of advice I received from all of it was that he likely needed a "vertical" phonics curriculum. Wow, that helped him SO MUCH. That's all I'll use now with any of my kids. My younger 2 are using Logic of English.

 

DS is now a straight A college freshman! :)

[blondeviolin]

My 7yo's birthday is in October. He's a first grader here. Regardless, he's also had about two years of phonics instruction and while he CAN read, he often forgets his phonograms, can't apply the rules, may not even REMEMBER the rules, etc. He reads above grade level, but not by much. And considering what he's doing with math and how much we've done with phonics, I'm pretty certain there is SOMETHING off. We have an appointment to see his pedi about a neuropsych referral.

 

All of that to say, you're not alone.

[FO4UR]

I've btdt.  My advise, fwiw...

 

 

#1 - Try Happy Phonics.  She may need more intensive work to get those phonograms down and the happiest (and therefore most efficient) way to do that is via games.

 

 

#2 - Try the process on this blog.  http://joyfulshepherdess.blogspot.com/2013/03/all-my-charlotte-mason-reading-posts-in.html

 

It sounds like you did something similar, naturally, with your older two dc.  This 3rd child may just need more intensive word building exercises with you. It's wonderful that you are keeping the worries over her reading to yourself.  Keep doing that by not changing TOOOOOO much, just do more and do it more intensively.  You *will* cover everything in a bonafide reading primer if you have the discipline to keep up with daily lessons.

 

 

#3 - You can ditch the Abeka readers in favor of Little Bear, Frog and Toad, and Amelia Bedelia if you use the process in the blog in #2.  Pull out the words in the books and use them for word building.  Then read the books.  I promise to help with any tricky words as my children read aloud to me, and that alleviates the fear of "hard books." Alternate word building and reading practice.

 

 

#4 - USE A CURSOR.  I put that in all caps b/c it's a vital step for kids who struggle with the visual parts of reading.  Cut a notch out of a 3x5 index card (pastel blue preferably), and as you are reading uncover one sound at a time.  Likewise, during word building, write one sound on the board at a time, change one sound at a time, etc...always making sure she's seeing and hearing the individual sounds of each word.

 

 

#5 - Target reversals in handwriting lessons.  Write b and d at the top of a page.  Dictate /b/ and /d/ alternately and randomly as she writes 'b' and 'd' in the columns underneath the original letter. Repeat as needed to include all of the letters that she reverses. Do this with large, gross motor movement AND with fine motor movement on paper. If this still doesn't help, write in cursive. Some kids need cursive.  Some kids are able to correct their print reversals after associating the letters with their cursive twins.

 

 

 

And, don't stress grade levels right now.  6 months is a large % of 7 years.  Slow and steady work will win the race.  (If the above advice does not produce improvement, check out Dancing Bears Reading.)

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Thanks for all the advice! It looks like I have some reading of my own to do. I think I need to have her do some of those tests and also pay more attention to her reading and see if I can pinpoint where the problems are.

 

I was talking to my DH about my concerns last night and he thinks we should start with a very systematic phonics program and see if that helps. Now I just have to choose one. I know nothing about phonics programs. I'll start looking into all of your suggestions tonight.

 

My DH also said something about covering the words with colored plastic sheets or something like that? He said his teachers did that with him when he was learning to read. I'm not really sure what he's talking about or what that's supposed to do. Any ideas?

[PeterPan]

Scotopic sensitivity, common with some dyslexics.  You might give her the Barton pretest and see what happens.  http://bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen It's free and if she fails it you'll know how much you have to back up.  

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

I just finished watching the Barton pre-test and am going to try to do it with her tomorrow. I have to admit that I'm not optimistic - especially about that third section. I just don't see her remembering the sounds.

 

I also looked at another assessment. It had lists of nonsense words and a section focused on phonetic awareness. I'm going to try to do that one with her next week and see if I can get a better idea of where she is with blending. Sometimes she seems ok with it and sometimes not.

 

Scotopic sensitivity....There's ALOT of new terminology to learn....

[Ellie]

I was talking to my DH about my concerns last night and he thinks we should start with a very systematic phonics program and see if that helps. Now I just have to choose one. I know nothing about phonics programs. I'll start looking into all of your suggestions tonight.

 

My DH also said something about covering the words with colored plastic sheets or something like that? He said his teachers did that with him when he was learning to read. I'm not really sure what he's talking about or what that's supposed to do. Any ideas?

 

Spalding and its spin-offs give specific instructions on letter formation. Sometimes children write letters backwards because they haven't been given explicit, concrete, directional instructions. It could be that with that kind of direct, explicit instruction she wouldn't need colored plastic sheets and whatnot.

[PeterPan]

The Barton pre-test is *not* a test for dyslexia but only a test to see if she has enough phonemic awareness and working memory to go into Barton level 1 without prior steps.  The instructions for scoring and what to do depending on the results are there.  You can also call Barton herself.  The pretest is something a 5 yo should be able to pass.  

 

When you have the right words for what's going on, then you can decide the correct intervention.  I started with WRTR with my dd years ago and then went to SWR.  I've used AAS, HTTS, all sorts of things.  With my ds, I skip all that and go straight to Barton because that's what he needs.  You need the right words for the issues so you can choose the correct intervention.  SWR, WRTR, LOE, AAS, all these programs are conceptually very, very similar with minor differences.  IF there is something more serious going on, you're going to want the tools that a program specific to your problem will bring to the table.  I know all those other programs, but I pay $350 a level for Barton because Barton still brings more to the table.  

 

So figure out what's going on, then buy.  That Barton pre-test has the instructions on scoring.  Some kids will have no phonemic awareness issues and just working memory.  Just see what it shows.  You can post the results here and also on LC to let the gurus help you interpret them.

 

And no, some people still need the colored sheets.  It depends on what's going on.  You would get a vision exam by a developmental optometrist to look into Irlen syndrome and whatnot.  All sorts of things happen.  Some people are very, very spatial and their spatial sort of gets ungrounded.  They end up needing to HANDLE the things and turn them and find ways to get a frame of reference.  Barton has some really cool tricks I haven't seen elsewhere that definitely helped my ds.  Not everyone with those issues is dyslexic, but if your dc is dyslexic and has those, you really want to move on to a program like Barton that is aimed at dyslexics.  It just brings SO much more to the table.  She anticipates every little problem they'll have and has steps for them.  Pure gold the program is.

[Ausmumof3]

My ds was similar and around eight started reading much more fluently and is now reading novels and having to be told to turn out the light at night.

 

Doesn't mean it isn't worth pursuing testing or a different approach just that for some kids time is a huge help too. We used sonlight la which had inbuilt phonics but never finished a full phonics curriculum with him. The one thing I am glad I did was hours of read alouds as it gave him the vocabulary once the reading took off.

 

Also don't be afraid to take time off almost everything else just to focus on reading if necessary.

 

This year writing is our focus as this is still an issue with occasional letter inversions/

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

I posted over on the Learning Challenges Board with the results of some tests we did today. If anyone has time to help me figure out what to do with them that'd be great! Thanks for the help!

[Homeschoolmom4981]

I second getting an evaluation from a private educational psych. I paid $105 for one and it was a 3 hour test. I'm so glad I did it!! She was 6 at the time and the Abeka readers just about killed her. We restarted with Starfall.com (free) and then she did some exercises in the Childrens workbooks for dyslexics. Explode the code online also helped tremendously. She can now read books like spider wick chronicles (she's 9). The ed psych that did the testing actually tutors my children and said reversals are not uncommon up to age 8. She sent me a huge list of websites. Email me if you are interested and I can forward it to you. I guarantee the money spent on getting the test done will be well worth it.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Every place I've looked at so far for testing is $2000+. I'm not sure if we can get it done through the public schools either. Schools aren't required to offer services to students who don't attend the school. Some choose to but some don't. I figured out a few things when I did the tests with her today so I'm going to start working on those things while we figure out our next step.

[PeterPan]

It varies, depending on how many hours of testing they do, what your insurance covers, etc.  

[MyHandsAreFull]

OP, try calling local and/or regional universities and speak with people in the graduate school of psychology (usually). They sometimes will do low cost testing because their grad students need practice (supervised by the faculty). The state university near us will do a complete battery of tests for $400. It was not on their website--I had to call and ask.

 

Scottish Rite has reading centers in select cities and they will also do testing (low or no cost--they are a charitable organization).

 

Finally, you could consider looking at Lindamood-Bell. They sometimes run specials where they will run a set of diagnostics for a reduced price (I think I had a coupon and paid $250). Their one on one tutoring is horrifically expensive (we paid $100/hr) and they will probably give you a hard sell, but you are under no obligation to do anything other than to pay for the diagnostics.

 

Finally, see what your insurance might cover. Virtually none will pay for remediating dyslexia but some will pay for the evaluation to diagnose it.

 

HTH.

[PeterPan]

Unless the tutoring center eval is done by a psychologist who can diagnose, it's not going to open doors for you. 

[Sugarfoot]

My son's testing was $1200 the first time, when he was 8, and $1800 when we repeated it at 17, before he applied to college. It was a full evaluation done by two educational psychologists, and we were given a huge report with his results and things that would be helpful for teaching him. We also spent about 30 minutes going over his results after his testing. That was very helpful.

[Kylie]

I don't know if I am too late but I'd like to recommend Phonics Road to Spelling and Reading.