Help me advise DE or other options

[bluedarling]

DS is 15yo.  He wants an eventual doctorate in physics.  The original plan was for him to start full-time DE next year, his junior year.  Now, I'm second guessing this decision.  DS is young for his grade, adhd/impulsive, and lacks study skills that make me nervous he will not do well at college (he, otoh, believes he can succeed.)  However, he thrives with discussion with knowledgeable instructors, and is very anxious to start college for this aspect.  He does not have this same love of interaction with online courses.  I'm actually wondering if ps high school would be a better option for him?  (He has no desire to go this route....I'm just trying to get him the interaction he desires without pushing him beyond what he's ready for.)  I have no idea what the quality of teachers are like at our high school...or our community college, for that matter.  I do know a math teacher at the college, but that is all.  I'm thinking a combination of home, high school and DE may be his best option??  Maybe take math & physics at the high school, humanities at college, and somethings at home (to keep homeschool status)?  Advise me so I can advise him!

[regentrude]

If you suspect your student lacks maturity, I would strongly advise against full time dual enrollment - every grade in every college course will become part of his permanent college transcript! I would ease him into college with one class during the first semester so he can get used to the different expectations, the pace, the work load, the level of time management and organization required. If that goes well, add a second course in the next semester.

I would start with a subject he is interested in and doing well. But it may be too early for even one class if he is immature and lacks study skills; I'd work to shore those up before plunging into college.

 

I do not consider dropping any student from a full time homeschool into full time dual enrollment a good idea. 

[Trilliums]

DS is 15yo.  He wants an eventual doctorate in physics.  The original plan was for him to start full-time DE next year, his junior year.  Now, I'm second guessing this decision.  DS is young for his grade, adhd/impulsive, and lacks study skills that make me nervous he will not do well at college (he, otoh, believes he can succeed.)  However, he thrives with discussion with knowledgeable instructors, and is very anxious to start college for this aspect.  He does not have this same love of interaction with online courses.  I'm actually wondering if ps high school would be a better option for him?  (He has no desire to go this route....I'm just trying to get him the interaction he desires without pushing him beyond what he's ready for.)  I have no idea what the quality of teachers are like at our high school...or our community college, for that matter.  I do know a math teacher at the college, but that is all.  I'm thinking a combination of home, high school and DE may be his best option??  Maybe take math & physics at the high school, humanities at college, and somethings at home (to keep homeschool status)?  Advise me so I can advise him!

 

This is what my son did.  

 

He has homeschooled since grade 1 and has a dyslexia diagnosis.  He started to take classes (chemistry and an engineering class) at the high school in grade 9 to see how he fared in the structured class setting.  Then he added in LA and SS but transitioned to DE classes at the U for math and physics.  The classes at the university are less forgiving--if students miss assignments or quizzes, their grades tends to suffer quicker than in the high school setting.

 

I do think it is important for the student to have input into the decision making process and be "on board" with the plan as their attitude toward the classes also impacts their performance.  This was the route my son wanted to take and it has worked out well.  He has been able to volunteer in the research lab of one of his professors as well.  He is now a high school senior, about to start second semester classes at the U.  He will finish up the year with a homeschool diploma.  

 

You might search for your local public school's School Profile.  It should list average test scores and some other info that would be useful.  We are fortunate to have a great high school with a strong focus on math and science.  Plus, it is very easy for homeschool students to attend the high school part time which isn't the case for all public school districts.

[Sunshine State Sue]

I would think that full-time DE as a first experience at CC for any student would be a challenge.

 

We are advised (by experienced hs moms) to start with a class called The College Experience:

This course is designed to strengthen skills essential to success in college, with further applications to post-college plans. Included are study and test-taking strategies; effective interpersonal skills; time management techniques; creative and critical thinking skills; college services and resources; educational policies, procedures, regulations and terminology; and library resources, research strategies, and information skills for online, blended, and traditional learning environments.

 

The other advice is to start the student in an an academically strong area so that they are successful.

 

Many suggest starting with just one class.

 

I started my son in 10th grade in 2 classes at CC:  the one above and another in an academically strong area.  He has no learning challenges, but does have some (typical) organizational challenges.  He also took 2 classes at PS in 10th grade.  One was a relatively weak area that would have been challenging at the CC level.

 

HTH!

 

ETA:  Be sure to investigate CC teachers using ratemyprofessor.com and myedu.com.  The professors can make it or break it.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My son had his first CC class last semester.  He took the first semester of Pre-Calculus.  Even though this was the course he placed into, it required quite a bit more work than he was used to putting into math.  He earned an A in the class and learned a lot, both about math and about studying and managing a class.  But it also took over 300 hours to complete the homework.  

 

I don't think he could have moved right into full time at the CC.  In fact he decided to only take one course this semester, because he wanted to make sure he had enough time to devote to it.

 

A couple thoughts about the experience.  At our CC, the application was free or low cost ($25).  This included the placement or assessment test that told us what classes he would be approved to take.  I personally am not a fan of going to the CC for classes that are remedial, unless there is a compelling reason.  Some CC will not let high school students take any non-college level classes anyway.  So you could have a more informed idea of where he might place before you commit to actually registering and paying for classes.

 

Many college classes now have a significant amount of work to be done through an online site.  I think this is most common in math and science classes, but it may apply to humanities classes as well.  The Pre-Calc class had all of the homework problems assigned through a website.  He had a couple tries at a problem, then it would show him the correct solution and present a fresh problem of the same type but with different numbers.  There were monthly quizzes that were also completed online.  (The class also had monthly in class tests and a final exam.)  This not only required a certain ability to work with the website, but also a computer to use and an internet connection.  (IE, math became a lot less portable than in the past.)

 

The CC came with a real need to be in class on every scheduled class day.  He did sit in with a different section on the day of his PSAT.  But with a MWF class, it meant that our family couldn't just take off on a vacation when my dh was able to get some days off.  Everything had to be scheduled around ds's CC schedule.  Because he doesn't have a license, it also means that transportation has to be considered.  We were fortunate to live within biking distance of one CC, but I still dropped him off a couple times when weather was too bad.  His CC this semester is too far to bike to, so he rides the bus.  This means that he has to be organized enough to take school work to read on the ride, or he will be losing a fair portion of his day.

 

 

[bluedarling]

Would it be better for him to take physics at high school or cc?  (Its his interest area, but he has no prior experience in the area, really.)   Also math....cc or de?  He's good at it, but has not taken challenging classes.

[regentrude]

Would it be better for him to take physics at high school or cc?  (Its his interest area, but he has no prior experience in the area, really.)   Also math....cc or de?  He's good at it, but has not taken challenging classes.

 

That depends entirely on the quality of the courses and his math background.

Also, if he takes an algebra based physics course at CC, this credit will NOT count towards his physics major, since he will need calculus based physics. So, if accumulating credits is part of the reason he wants to do this, that would not work.

 

What math classes would he book looking for?

I would not recommend for a future physics student to take any math below calculus at CC, because those lower levels would probably  be more remedial - the students who are strong in math took precalc and algebra 2 at high school and won't spend college tuition on it. And again, no college credit for a physics major for any math below calc.

I'd rather make sure he takes the most challenging math at home he can find and do calc at CC. And even there he should look carefully at the level of the course; he may be getting a better education by taking the course at his terminal 4 year university.

[go_go_gadget]

I started at a CC at 15, and earned high grades in those classes I enjoyed, blithely failing those I didn't. 15 years later, my CC GPA is the major reason why I'm having to take the long route to a PhD in math by doing an MS first, because the bar for the MS was lower (a painful blow after I worked so hard later on in undergrad). My kids are younger, but if later on they're working ahead of grade level and their work ethic warrants it I'll consider DE, but won't without both of those qualifications in place. If your sig is up-to-date, your student is working about at grade level, and not in necessarily the most challenging programs (MUS is rather low on rigor, for instance). If your son has graduate school aspirations, I'd focus more on challenging him at a high school level and developing his maturity before risking his future plans at all.

[The Girls' Mom]

I agree, start slow with DE.  My oldest did her first semester this year with two classes: Chinese and Statistics.  She easily placed into Statistics, but the work load was HUGE for her.  She often spent 4 hours in the math lab after class completing homework.  She did well and got Bs in both classes.  But it really was a reality check for a kid that is dreamy and not really used to having to WORK at school.  She is a senior, btw.  You definitely don't want him to get in over his head and have that GPA follow him through the rest of his college career.  

[bluedarling]

What if he doesn't plan to transfer the credits?  Would taking general physics (not required for his major) make sense, just to get him working with a professor in his interest area? or will it follow him even he doesn't care about the credits? 

 

[Grantmom]

What if he doesn't plan to transfer the credits?  Would taking general physics (not required for his major) make sense, just to get him working with a professor in his interest area? or will it follow him even he doesn't care about the credits? 

 

I have been reading a lot of posts about this over the past few days, trying to figure out the same things that you are right now.  And from what I have read so far, it sounds like you HAVE to submit transcripts for any college level work he has done (not doing so can lead to bad things happening later) and that it is up to the college as to whether or not they accept the credit.  SO, you really cannot know.  You have to tell them that he took the class.  It's up to them whether or not they accept it.  So it might wind up on his college record at the 4-year university, and it might not.  But it will always be on the transcript from that college, and you will always have to submit all transcripts for all college work.

 

This is my understanding, but please someone feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If your goal is just to get him into the classroom for that interaction with other students and the professors, you might consider having him audit the class.  However, I think it varies on how that is looked upon.  In another thread I was just reading, someone commented that most colleges won't even consider that class when looking at their stuff for admission, because they have no idea if the student ever even went to class.  So I don't know if it would potentially "look bad" to audit a class, or if it's just that they won't consider it in the decision making process for admissions. 

[go_go_gadget]

What if he doesn't plan to transfer the credits?  Would taking general physics (not required for his major) make sense, just to get him working with a professor in his interest area? or will it follow him even he doesn't care about the credits? 

 

It depends on the system. My friend went from the same CC I went to to a tiny liberal arts college, and only transferred some of her CC credits. The credits fulfilled GE and unit requirements, but were ignored for her GPA. I went from the same CC to a state university, and had no say whatsoever in which of my credits transferred, because the CC's and state universities are connected in CA. So my university used the credits it wanted for my GE requirements, but even those that didn't fulfill any purpose still counted for my GPA.

 

It might work differently for a student applying as a freshman, rather than transferring, but I don't know much about that and I'd be willing to bet that it would vary from school to school.

[kiana]

He can go ahead and take a "high school" level physics class if he is interested -- it won't help him in a physics major but it would get him involved with a person who has at least a master's and possibly a phd in physics, who can advise him. Many CC professors are quite interested in helping a student who is genuinely interested in their subject. My chemistry prof at the CC lent me a bunch of his books to read for fun. This is as opposed to the physics teacher at the local high school, who had a chemistry major and had taken 18 credits of physics. The grade will still follow him and count into his GPA as a general elective. He should pay close attention to the withdrawal deadline. (The only reason I would consider this is to get him involved with someone who has a genuine passion for the subject).

 

With math, there's no reason to take courses before calculus at a college unless you are unable to teach them. Even then, if he has any struggles at all I would recommend enrollment in a high school class rather than a college, because the high school transcript will only follow him until he gets into college. The college transcript will follow him as he applies to graduate schools.

[8filltheheart]

I'm trying to fill in all of the blanks.  Is this son a current 10th grader?  Is this his current academic load?

 

"The Inventor" 15yob: MUS Geometry, Lial Alg II, OYAN & IEW Adv. Comm, Ouside Apologia Chemistry, Online French, Modern History (Hakim History of US as spine), Swimming, Orchestra

 

 

 

Is MUS his background prior to Lial's 2 or did he use Lial's 1 as well? 

 

 How does he manage is outside chemistry and French classes?

[snowbeltmom]

What if he doesn't plan to transfer the credits?  Would taking general physics (not required for his major) make sense, just to get him working with a professor in his interest area? or will it follow him even he doesn't care about the credits? 

 

General Physics at the college level is usually calculus based.  Does the college offer algebra-based physics, and if so, what is the math pre-req? 

 

[bluedarling]

I'm trying to fill in all of the blanks.  Is this son a current 10th grader?  Is this his current academic load?

 

 

Is MUS his background prior to Lial's 2 or did he use Lial's 1 as well? 

 

 How does he manage is outside chemistry and French classes?

 

Yes, currently 10th grade, and the signature has his current courses. 

 

He's completing MUS and Lials concurrently, and will wrap up both this next quarter....I added Lials when I realized the MUS was incredibly easy.  Last year he did MUS Algebra followed by Foeresters Algebra.  He had no problem with Foeresters.  He works very quickly with great comprehension, but lacks organization and study skills.  For math, this mainly affects not noticing fine details in instructions, or accidentally skipping problems, and not showing work.

 

His online French is going OK this year (B).  While his grade hasn't improved from last year, he's getting the work accomplished in a more timely and consistent manner.  Chemistry has also improved (over biology with same teacher), but he's on probation (considering dismissing him from class) for not having his lab book two weeks in a row (ongoing issue of not having completed work with him, or necessary items.)   He should be an A student for knowledge/understanding, but organizational issues put him at a B this year (an improvement from last year, but still not up to his potential.)  He doesn't study for tests, but attempts to rely on his memory. (This works sometimes, and not others.)  

 

(Gifted/adhd)

[Ellie]

DS is 15yo.  He wants an eventual doctorate in physics.  The original plan was for him to start full-time DE next year, his junior year.  Now, I'm second guessing this decision.  DS is young for his grade, adhd/impulsive, and lacks study skills that make me nervous he will not do well at college (he, otoh, believes he can succeed.)  However, he thrives with discussion with knowledgeable instructors, and is very anxious to start college for this aspect.  He does not have this same love of interaction with online courses.  I'm actually wondering if ps high school would be a better option for him?  (He has no desire to go this route....I'm just trying to get him the interaction he desires without pushing him beyond what he's ready for.)  I have no idea what the quality of teachers are like at our high school...or our community college, for that matter.  I do know a math teacher at the college, but that is all.  I'm thinking a combination of home, high school and DE may be his best option??  Maybe take math & physics at the high school, humanities at college, and somethings at home (to keep homeschool status)?  Advise me so I can advise him!

 

 

It couldn't hurt to let him try a class, especially if *he* believes he can succeed. It sounds as if he is motivated. I would not choose high school over college.

[bluedarling]

General Physics at the college level is usually calculus based.  Does the college offer algebra-based physics, and if so, what is the math pre-req? 

 

 

Thanks, yes, I see that now.  They do offer Intro to Physics that has an intermediate algebra requirement, but general physics required pre-calc, which he would be taking concurrently.  I suppose Intro would work.

[regentrude]

What if he doesn't plan to transfer the credits?  Would taking general physics (not required for his major) make sense, just to get him working with a professor in his interest area? or will it follow him even he doesn't care about the credits? 

 

"General Phsyics" is usually calculus based.

"College Physics" woudl be algebra based. he should check carefully.

 

Yes, it would definitey be beneficial to take the course - but beware that ANY college grade will follow him.

[regentrude]

Thanks, yes, I see that now.  They do offer Intro to Physics that has an intermediate algebra requirement, but general physics required pre-calc, which he would be taking concurrently.  I suppose Intro would work.

 

They distinguish between TWO different levels of NON-calulus based physics?  Or is the course with the precalc prereq calculus based with calculus as a co-requisite?

What texts are they using?

Unless precalc is listed as a COrequisite, he should not be taking it concurrently.

[Dmmetler]

I would strongly suggest that you check out the math syllabus for the prerequisite class and make sure he's covered the syllabus. Sometimes, a course labeled "precalculus" at one school and one labeled "precalculus" at another are very, very different, and if precalculus is a prerequisite for physics, that's where the math in physics is going to start. Similarly "intermediate algebra" offered at a college COULD be a repeat of high school level algebra. It could also be a truly college level algebra course that starts out way beyond anything ever previously experienced and a physics course based on it may well assume understanding of calculus. Usually you can find the syllabus online for past semesters.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

.  For math, this mainly affects not noticing fine details in instructions, or accidentally skipping problems, and not showing work.

 

His online French is going OK this year (B).  While his grade hasn't improved from last year, he's getting the work accomplished in a more timely and consistent manner.  Chemistry has also improved (over biology with same teacher), but he's on probation (considering dismissing him from class) for not having his lab book two weeks in a row (ongoing issue of not having completed work with him, or necessary items.)   He should be an A student for knowledge/understanding, but organizational issues put him at a B this year (an improvement from last year, but still not up to his potential.)  He doesn't study for tests, but attempts to rely on his memory. (This works sometimes, and not others.)  

 

(Gifted/adhd)

 

This quoted part would have me running from DE as an option.  The grades will be on every transcript the rest of his life.  That doesn't only apply to applying as a freshman but to grad school as well.

 

My recommendation would be to create a contract with your son and complete the classes at home.  I would lay out a syllabus, concrete due dates, % of grade, etc then make it firm.  I would create daily calendar which he must fill out a week in advance with everything that is coming up for the following week and what he needs to have completed when.

 

I would spend more time on focusing on getting him ABLE to succeed in a college classroom than putting him in one.  If he wants to be a physicist, he is won't be getting by in college in a disorganized manner.  He is going to have to be able to juggle all of his balls simultaneously.  He is in the perfect place to start learning now w/o it affecting his long term goals.  

 

FWIW, b/c he is at home, I would attach serious consequences to not putting effort into learning these skills.  College isn't cheap.  It will be an expensive experience for him to arrive on campus and not be able to deal with it all.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yes, currently 10th grade, and the signature has his current courses. 

 

He's completing MUS and Lials concurrently, and will wrap up both this next quarter....I added Lials when I realized the MUS was incredibly easy.  Last year he did MUS Algebra followed by Foeresters Algebra.  He had no problem with Foeresters.  He works very quickly with great comprehension, but lacks organization and study skills.  For math, this mainly affects not noticing fine details in instructions, or accidentally skipping problems, and not showing work.

 

His online French is going OK this year (B).  While his grade hasn't improved from last year, he's getting the work accomplished in a more timely and consistent manner.  Chemistry has also improved (over biology with same teacher), but he's on probation (considering dismissing him from class) for not having his lab book two weeks in a row (ongoing issue of not having completed work with him, or necessary items.)   He should be an A student for knowledge/understanding, but organizational issues put him at a B this year (an improvement from last year, but still not up to his potential.)  He doesn't study for tests, but attempts to rely on his memory. (This works sometimes, and not others.)

 

(Gifted/adhd)

 

The bolded above suggest to me that stepping things up to the demands of college level coursework might be a bigger step than he is ready for.  

 

One of the hardest things for me to figure out is where to place my kids such that they are challenged, but not set up for failure.  I did a lot of monitoring of the first CC course so he could drop the class if it wasn't a good match.

 

I have found that there is a real difference in output from my teen sons between classes with mom and outside classes with outside deadlines.  But maybe outside teachers that don't present the forever transcript issue of a CC class would be a better idea.  

[kiana]

They distinguish between TWO different levels of NON-calulus based physics?  Or is the course with the precalc prereq calculus based with calculus as a co-requisite?

What texts are they using?

Unless precalc is listed as a COrequisite, he should not be taking it concurrently.

 

My undergrad had 3 levels of physics: calc-based for engineers, chemists, and physicists, algebra-based for biologists and biochemists, and something about the same level as Hewitt's Conceptual Physics for people who just wanted a general education course. 

[regentrude]

My undergrad had 3 levels of physics: calc-based for engineers, chemists, and physicists, algebra-based for biologists and biochemists, and something about the same level as Hewitt's Conceptual Physics for people who just wanted a general education course. 

 

Yes, I am familiar with the option of a Conceptual  physics- but having two algebra based courses, one with algebra 2 and another with precalc as prerequs sounded strange.

[kiana]

Yes, I am familiar with the option of a Conceptual  physics- but having two algebra based courses, one with algebra 2 and another with precalc as prerequs sounded strange.

 

Ah, now I see what you were talking about. 

 

My guess, though, is that it's still a conceptual physics but that they had too many people failing it due to complete innumeracy so they put on a must-not-be-in-remedial-math requirement. We were actually talking about putting that requirement on the lowest-level physics course at my school now, simply because people are failing it due to panicking at the first sign of a letter in an equation. 

[bluedarling]

They distinguish between TWO different levels of NON-calulus based physics?  Or is the course with the precalc prereq calculus based with calculus as a co-requisite?

What texts are they using?

Unless precalc is listed as a COrequisite, he should not be taking it concurrently.

 

The General Physics text is Physics (Jim Walker) which says on the amazon description that it is algebra based! (two-quarter course, pre-calc pre-req, but no mention of a calculus co-requisite.)

The Introduction to Physics text is Physics of Everyday Phenomena (Conceptual Physics, single quarter course, and the math required is considered remedial level.)

 

The other physics offerred is engineering physics, and it requires calculus....he's definitely not ready for that, and that is what would potentially transfer. (3 quarter class)

 

I had a really bad experience my junior year with a incredibly lousy high school physics teacher (who tried to fail the entire class...the school stopped him, so he just curved the failing grades.  The entire class failed because the guy didn't know the material and couldn't teach it!)  I'm leary of having my son attempt physics at the high school without knowing the quality of the instructor, and would really love to get him a degreed instructor.  But it is scary considering his issues!!   (He could potentially take the first pre-calc class first quarter, then physics the next quarter....), but I'm leaning toward an online high school course right now. He'd really really prefer in person, though. (sigh)

[kiana]

Precalc in a quarter is an EXTREMELY rapid pace. It is likely that, if you DID want to enroll at the CC, college algebra and then precalc would be a more suitable placement. 

[bluedarling]

Precalc in a quarter is an EXTREMELY rapid pace. It is likely that, if you DID want to enroll at the CC, college algebra and then precalc would be a more suitable placement. 

 

Pre-Calc is 2 quarters (2nd quarter is trig)....just the first quarter is listed as pre-req for physics, though.