Ben Foss on owning dyslexia

[PeterPan]

“Own†Dyslexia With Ear Reading, Using Phone as Assistive Technology | Expert Corner - Understood

 

Watch the video on this!  I'm blown away. How would we teach our kids to do this?  Has anyone read his book?

 

He mentions this link  http://headstrongnation.org/resources

[OneStepAtATime]

I have read most of his book.  Not all.  I will look at the video.  I agree with many things he said in the book...but definitely not all.  His perspective and experiences are different from mine.

[Heathermomster]

He hasn't practiced recently, but JN used to listen to audio sped up to 125%. Speed listening was discussed in the back of the Dyslexic Advantage. The student needs to practice.

[PeterPan]

I should have taken DA with me to the gym tonight!  I can take it tomorrow.  I've been slowly plowing through SandyKC's book on dyslexia.  You did see though that this Ben Foss dude is reading at *3X* right?   :svengo:   In that video he has the kid jump immediately by 1/3 and then suggests increasing 10% each week to get up to the max speed.  I'm thinking just sabbatoge, just quietly turning up the speed without asking, might be in order, hehe...  DA had said to do it with non-fiction books, but it hadn't occurred to me how useful this could be for all sorts of things.  

[PeterPan]

OneStep, so what were the things you disagreed with?  Our library has it, so I requested the book.  What I liked is how positive he is. I gather maybe he's profoundly dyslexic?  I mean somebody who makes that effort to be able to comprehend at 3X must have enough disability to make it worth it, wowsers.  

[Tokyomarie]

He is definitely profoundly dyslexic. I remember way back when I was a college student- long ago- I worked for a woman who was a speech pathologist. She tutored dyslexic college students and adults after hours and one of her students listened to her college textbooks (on cassette tapes, back in those days!) at something like 2-3X normal speed.

 

I like that Ben Foss is very much into not hiding one's dyslexia. I personally find his communication style to be very abrasive and I couldn't finish his book because of that. I also didn't like his take on homeschooling. Other people like his style a lot.

[OneStepAtATime]

OneStep, so what were the things you disagreed with?  Our library has it, so I requested the book.  What I liked is how positive he is. I gather maybe he's profoundly dyslexic?  I mean somebody who makes that effort to be able to comprehend at 3X must have enough disability to make it worth it, wowsers.  

Well, Tokyomarie has a similar perspective to mine, I see, so basically "What she said."   :).  

 

Foss is very upbeat and he has some great points.  His book could definitely be a lifeline to others, and I do think you would get some benefit from reading it.  There are some great resources and ideas in there.  I think the benefit, though, might be more for parents of public schooled dyslexic kids since he is firmly entrenched in that experience and mindset.  

 

As for what I specifically didn't agree with, I don't remember the book that clearly but I do remember feeling uncomfortable, getting irritated or confused at times and generally feeling like periodically we were not in synch, if that makes any sense.  

 

Specifically, though, there are a couple of things I remember feeling we were not coming at from the same perspective.  First, I don't agree with his perspective on homeschooling.  He seemed to feel that while homeschooling might be a viable option short term it is not a good long term solution.  IIRC he was very much advocating that kids remain in ps with accommodations or only homeschooling for a brief period before returning to ps as a much better option to homeschooling for an extended period.  I'm not saying kids shouldn't do this.  Some probably would do much better in ps with accommodations.  I just didn't agree that no one should consider homeschooling long-term as a viable option.  But perhaps I misread what he was saying..

 

I also don't agree that continuing to work on remediation is basically a waste of time, which I seem to remember was one of his points, especially once a child reached a certain age.  It has been a while but I think he was basically saying that accommodations are critical and almost more important than remediation.  For someone with profound dyslexia, especially trying to function in a ps setting, I can understand where he might have this perspective.  In fact, I am very aware that there are specific areas of math that DD may never get and beating those things to death may not benefit her in the long run.  Accommodations may be a lifeline.  

 

However, I have seen remediation work for many, many children, my own included.  If I had given up when it first got tough, my kids would not be reading right now.  If, when I started homeschooling DD for 6th grade, I had decided to just provide accommodations and ditch any real push for remediation DD would still be reading Clifford books instead of Hunger Games and Divergent and Little House on the Prairie.  She would still be spelling at a 1st grade level.  Her confidence would probably not be nearly as high and her functionality in daily life would not have improved so significantly in the past 2 years.

 

I agree that accommodations can be a huge help and a life saver.  But so can remediation.  Maybe not for everyone or for every circumstance.  I agree with that.  I just feel that the right kind of remediation can be very, very important and should not be chucked out the window just because your child was older when they were diagnosed, KWIM?

 

Again, though, it has been a while since I read it.  My initial impressions may have been off.

[FairProspects]

He hasn't practiced recently, but JN used to listen to audio sped up to 125%. Speed listening was discussed in the back of the Dyslexic Advantage. The student needs to practice.

 

Yes, this. It is one of my major goals to get ds comfortable with speed in the next couple of years. He has done remediation too, but he is just not likely to read quickly. I do see the future for him as speed listening. I don't know how he can keep up with the volume of reading otherwise.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, this. It is one of my major goals to get ds comfortable with speed in the next couple of years. He has done remediation too, but he is just not likely to read quickly. I do see the future for him as speed listening. I don't know how he can keep up with the volume of reading otherwise.

I see this same thing for DS.

 

In fact, I think DS will do well with speed listening, once he is trained on it.  And it may end up being much more useful for him than for DD, anyway.  He is always wanting to read extremely thick books and has many interests that require  extensive reading.  

 

DD not so much.  She reads better than DS anyway, so listening to books isn't as necessary for her.  Still, even if she didn't, she just doesn't have the same interests or reading needs.  Yes, for High School and College she may need to cover more extensive reading, but her needs with reading so far have not been the same.  Also, though, she can barely process audio books, and when I am reading slowly and emphasizing and explaining as we go during read alouds she still sometimes needs material repeated and does not always understand what is happening.  Anything faster and it is just gobbledygook.  We have to turn on closed captioning for some TV shows she likes because the dialog is too fast for her.  Speed listening just seems like a really, really bad fit for her.

[Heathermomster]

Yes, this. It is one of my major goals to get ds comfortable with speed in the next couple of years. He has done remediation too, but he is just not likely to read quickly. I do see the future for him as speed listening. I don't know how he can keep up with the volume of reading otherwise.

It is a totally acceptable accommodation and believe every student should listen to audio if it helps getting through classes, college or otherwise.

 

Over Thanksgiving, we trekked to visit family in CT.  I learned my two nieces no longer carry textbooks.  They go online for their books and one of the girls is struggling with reading a textbook on the screen.  I gave her info about iSpeak info for Google Chrome.   I suggested that her mom purchase her texts used off of Amazon.  SIL gave me the funniest look when I said that.  I then spoke with SIL and both nieces about outside helps to improve study.  Their thinking is skewed.  It is like, if the public school system doesn't suggest it, they don't think it.  When did purchasing a textbook outside the system become so countercultural?

 

I recognized later how much I have changed because of my children and their study differences.  Accommodations that seemed far fetched due to ignorance, now seem perfectly natural and no big deal.  I can see where if DS does not embrace accommodations now, he could be beat down by "outside" thinking later.  I want him to practice with the accommodations so that they are second nature.

 

I only watched a little bit of the video last night.  I'll re-watch this morning.  

 

Headstrong accommodations link..

[Heathermomster]

I should have taken DA with me to the gym tonight!  I can take it tomorrow.  I've been slowly plowing through SandyKC's book on dyslexia.  You did see though that this Ben Foss dude is reading at *3X* right?   :svengo:   In that video he has the kid jump immediately by 1/3 and then suggests increasing 10% each week to get up to the max speed.  I'm thinking just sabbatoge, just quietly turning up the speed without asking, might be in order, hehe...  DA had said to do it with non-fiction books, but it hadn't occurred to me how useful this could be for all sorts of things.  

 

 

Just asked DS how he does it.  With the Kindle, text-to-speech speed is on the highest setting.  For LearningAlly or Bookshare, the pitch is turned down to the lowest setting and the speed is cranked up so that the voice isn't so "chipmunky".

[PeterPan]

OneStep, I picked up that vibe in the video, even with just the 15-20 minute segment I watched and it was a real lightning bolt for me.  Our psych didn't really talk outcomes with us.  I'm sort of the "I'll intervene, it will all turn out awesome" (otherwise known as I can fix this) and it hadn't really occurred to me that there might be a situation where that wasn't REALITY, that maybe NO MATTER HOW HARD I intervene he's always going to be a slow reader who would be infinitely happier with extensive use of accommodations.

 

And I think further to the point, the question is intervention at what COST?  When all my tutoring energy gets sucked into it?  When his life sucks because he wakes up to Barton every day?  It's not that big a deal in the short term, but at what cost?  For how long?  For what gains??  

 

I liked his tone, haha, which totally shows how socially messed up I am.  He seemed pretty normal and upfront to me.  :D  I was pretty inspired by his bluntness and this whole implicit idea of asking why you're ruining their life if it's not really worth it or getting you anywhere.  There's a point where it IS getting you somewhere and there's a point where it's not.  I found that worth pondering.  That idea that you can accept your disability at a point and move on to being whole.  I'm not saying WHEN that point is, just that I found the thought interesting.  

 

Anyways, that's just what I'm thinking about, our balance or rather our lack of balance in our house (obviously my own fault).  

 

Ok, on the chipmunk thing, that's interesting that you can later the pitch on some of the apps!  So do you think they do 3X for everything?  Or do they vary based on the material and how leisurely they want to be?  Like if I crank up the speed on Beverly Cleary, is that cruel or useful?  

[Plink]

I didn't know this was a "thing." DD11 is profoundly dyslexic (double deficit, whatever you want to label it) and has been listening at fast speed for almost as long as I can remember. I never asked her to - she just fiddled with the settings and figured out that she didn't need to waste so much time if she sped it up. (She has attention issues too, so the faster speed keeps her engaged). I love that it isn't limited to just audiobooks; most MOOC courses let you do this too. It has made learning much less tedious for her.

 

I wish I could have hit 2x on some of my droning college professors back when I was in school. Waiting for the next nugget of wisdom sometimes seemed to take an eternity.

[Heathermomster]

OneStep, I picked up that vibe in the video, even with just the 15-20 minute segment I watched and it was a real lightning bolt for me.  Our psych didn't really talk outcomes with us.  I'm sort of the "I'll intervene, it will all turn out awesome" (otherwise known as I can fix this) and it hadn't really occurred to me that there might be a situation where that wasn't REALITY, that maybe NO MATTER HOW HARD I intervene he's always going to be a slow reader who would be infinitely happier with extensive use of accommodations.

 

And I think further to the point, the question is intervention at what COST?  When all my tutoring energy gets sucked into it?  When his life sucks because he wakes up to Barton every day?  It's not that big a deal in the short term, but at what cost?  For how long?  For what gains??  

 

I liked his tone, haha, which totally shows how socially messed up I am.  He seemed pretty normal and upfront to me.   :D  I was pretty inspired by his bluntness and this whole implicit idea of asking why you're ruining their life if it's not really worth it or getting you anywhere.  There's a point where it IS getting you somewhere and there's a point where it's not.  I found that worth pondering.  That idea that you can accept your disability at a point and move on to being whole.  I'm not saying WHEN that point is, just that I found the thought interesting.  

 

Anyways, that's just what I'm thinking about, our balance or rather our lack of balance in our house (obviously my own fault).  

 

Ok, on the chipmunk thing, that's interesting that you can later the pitch on some of the apps!  So do you think they do 3X for everything?  Or do they vary based on the material and how leisurely they want to be?  Like if I crank up the speed on Beverly Cleary, is that cruel or useful?  

According to DS, certain human voices are difficult to listen to and understand at a regular speed.  DS adjusts the speed up or down according to the reader's regional accent.  I will need to explore this in greater detail and get back to you.  I seriously doubt that he is up to 300% listening rate with LA and Bookshare.  DS listens at a quick rate that he can comprehend.  

 

There comes a point with remediation where you have to say enough. Sometimes, remediation gets you only so far and you have to realize that big changes are in order.  I reached that point with handwriting when DS was 5th grade.  I knew by third grade that forcing handwriting was wrong, yet I did it anyways.  Fifth grade was a transformative year for DS and me, and DS has realized many gains as a direct result.

[OneStepAtATime]

Just to clarify, I absolutely believe that  accommodations can be critical/useful/freeing and I also believe that continued remediation is not always the best course long term.  Absolutely.  No question.  This entirely depends on the child and the specific circumstances so some kids might do better shifting focus to accommodations earlier than others and it is hard to know when to do that.  Reading this book may free parents up that are beating their heads against a wall.  The idea that this would even be a good idea might really be enlightening for many, and help them to see that "fixing" the child may not be nearly as helpful as helping the child to function effectively through whatever external supports are necessary.

 

I did find his perspective quite interesting and useful.  But because I come from an area where remediation is a joke and trying to get anyone to actually do useful, effective, systematic, long term remediation is really challenging I was very uncomfortable with the idea that others in my area would read that book and fail to advocate for remediation for their child before they even tried, KWIM?  I got told that a lot with DD after the diagnosis.  Just give her accommodations.  She will never learn to read well.  Really?  She may never be a speed demon.  But she is reading.

[Tokyomarie]

I did find his perspective quite interesting.  But because I come from an area where remediation is a joke and trying to get anyone to actually do useful, effective, systematic, long term remediation is really challenging I was very uncomfortable with the idea that others in my area would read that book and fail to advocate for remediation for their child before they even tried, KWIM?  I got told that a lot with DD after the diagnosis.  Just give her accommodations.  She will never learn to read well.  Really?  She may never be a speed demon.  But she is reading.

 

I think this is partly what I was reacting to. I see Ben speaking from his own experience- an experience where, for whatever reasons, he didn't learn/wasn't able to learn to use visual, print-based reading as an effective way to learn. I'd have to dig up the statistics and don't have time to do so now, but I think the number of children who are unable to learn to read well enough to use print as a tool at least for daily life activities and some of their learning is pretty small. The vast majority of people with dyslexia, with appropriate instruction, can and do learn to read, if slower than average. Some folks will use only "eye reading" to access their books, even if it takes longer to read. Others will prefer "ear reading" when they have to do a lot of reading quickly. Some of it is personality, some of it is actual reading ability.

 

 Many students have never had access to excellent, multi-sensory structured literacy instruction. We cannot just move kids to using only accommodations and not provide effective literacy instruction. Kids need both so they can keep growing in their language skills while they are also learning to read. At a certain point, it does make sense to scale back on remediation, but not before they've had proper, expert instruction in as intensive enough a format as necessary to bring about effective growth in skills. Only then can you be confident that you'll know you've reached a point when you say, "Enough is enough." 

 

As the parent of one child who had a *lot*of difficulty learning to read in spite of good instruction, I wouldn't want to drop solid reading instruction early in the game. Did I "fix" my child? No, the fundamental weaknesses are still there and affect his writing and the way he prefers to access information. But he is not handicapped when it comes to his ability to access information through print when he needs to do so.

[OneStepAtATime]

Tokyomarie, I think you and I are channeling each other.   :lol:

[PeterPan]

According to DS, certain human voices are difficult to listen to and understand at a regular speed.  DS adjusts the speed up or down according to the reader's regional accent.  I will need to explore this in greater detail and get back to you.  I seriously doubt that he is up to 300% listening rate with LA and Bookshare.  DS listens at a quick rate that he can comprehend.  

 

There comes a point with remediation where you have to say enough. Sometimes, remediation gets you only so far and you have to realize that big changes are in order.  I reached that point with handwriting when DS was 5th grade.  I knew by third grade that forcing handwriting was wrong, yet I did it anyways.  Fifth grade was a transformative year for DS and me, and DS has realized many gains as a direct result.

That makes sense to me and seems like a good guideline, thanks!

[PeterPan]

I like this idea that we'll know when we've hit that wall, when enough is enough, and it's time to move on.  It makes sense that as long as you're making progress it doesn't make sense to stop.  What I hate is the TIME it takes and how that drains away energy from all the OTHER stuff he would have done at that age.  I put his kindle speed up to 1.25 today without telling him.  He probably won't even notice and is downstairs listening to his book just like normal, without any comment.  (He's fingerpainting and listening to a book for a break.)  So if we can get content via audio into him more QUICKLY, that sort of makes up for the amount of time we spend working on reading.

 

I was also realizing, and this is dumb, that it might be time for an actual handwriting workbook.  Has anyone used such a thing with a 6 yo?  I'm not strongly committed to doing the spelling in Barton.  I don't know what I'm going to do with that, as a matter of fact, and it's creating angst in my soul.  Like I broke out with atopic dermatitis (that I've probably only had bits on my hand of but basically never had before).  It's clearing up and wasn't much.  It's just you sort of stress thinking about all these things.  Anyways, I want to go forward through Barton more quickly and I'm concerned that by joining the writing and *requiring* the writing I might get to amounts that are either not age-appropriate or not him-appropriate.  So I don't know.  I've thought about culling the spelling off and doing it but doing it on a slower track.  I've got the handwriting automaticity to keep working on.  I could make handwriting sheets using the spelling words.  I like what Barton is doing with her progression of writing skills.  I could do it but just do a dab (introductory) rather than going whole hog.  I could do a dab and a handwriting book.  He likes humor, so if I did a handwriting workbook with humor he would actually LIKE that.  You know, like those Draw Write Now books or something?  Aren't they supposed to be the bees' knees?  

 

His life sorta sucks right now and there's a gap between what I idealize and what I get done.  (jet runs out of gas and all that)  That's another reason I was thinking charming handwriting workbook, because he'd actually LIKE it.  

 

So skip the Barton spelling?  Do it but lightly?  Oh, by skip I mean save those pages to come back to later.  Not a forever skip but more of a different tracks (spelling and reading) and let them break apart and go at different paces...

[PeterPan]

I'm not familiar with the topic. But I am familiar with speed listening. 

 

I started with movies. I had decided to rewatch the TV series, "The Big Bang Theory". I got the DVDs from the library and using my computer I watched them with subtitles on, just in case I missed what was being said. At first I went to speed 1.1, then 1.2... I know usually watch everything at 1.5, even if I don't have subtitles enabled. Some shows I watch at a faster speed, a few at a slower speed. 

 

So if you want to increase speed listening, you can always make it more desirable by re-watching a TV series you like. 

Ok, I'm flabbergasted.  You can do this only on a computer or on a tv as well?

[OneStepAtATime]

I like this idea that we'll know when we've hit that wall, when enough is enough, and it's time to move on.  It makes sense that as long as you're making progress it doesn't make sense to stop.  What I hate is the TIME it takes and how that drains away energy from all the OTHER stuff he would have done at that age.  I put his kindle speed up to 1.25 today without telling him.  He probably won't even notice and is downstairs listening to his book just like normal, without any comment.  (He's fingerpainting and listening to a book for a break.)  So if we can get content via audio into him more QUICKLY, that sort of makes up for the amount of time we spend working on reading.

 

I was also realizing, and this is dumb, that it might be time for an actual handwriting workbook.  Has anyone used such a thing with a 6 yo?  I'm not strongly committed to doing the spelling in Barton.  I don't know what I'm going to do with that, as a matter of fact, and it's creating angst in my soul.  Like I broke out with atopic dermatitis (that I've probably only had bits on my hand of but basically never had before).  It's clearing up and wasn't much.  It's just you sort of stress thinking about all these things.  Anyways, I want to go forward through Barton more quickly and I'm concerned that by joining the writing and *requiring* the writing I might get to amounts that are either not age-appropriate or not him-appropriate.  So I don't know.  I've thought about culling the spelling off and doing it but doing it on a slower track.  I've got the handwriting automaticity to keep working on.  I could make handwriting sheets using the spelling words.  I like what Barton is doing with her progression of writing skills.  I could do it but just do a dab (introductory) rather than going whole hog.  I could do a dab and a handwriting book.  He likes humor, so if I did a handwriting workbook with humor he would actually LIKE that.  You know, like those Draw Write Now books or something?  Aren't they supposed to be the bees' knees?  

 

His life sorta sucks right now and there's a gap between what I idealize and what I get done.  (jet runs out of gas and all that)  That's another reason I was thinking charming handwriting workbook, because he'd actually LIKE it.  

 

So skip the Barton spelling?  Do it but lightly?  Oh, by skip I mean save those pages to come back to later.  Not a forever skip but more of a different tracks (spelling and reading) and let them break apart and go at different paces...

I guess I am sort of confused about what you mean with dropping spelling with Barton.  I can see continuing to modify handwriting and using something besides Barton for learning handwriting.  We do that, too.  But spelling is tied in to each lesson.  It isn't something separate.  It is part of the whole program.  The child is learning to spell as part of how they are learning to decode and read.  How would you remove spelling from the process without damaging the integrity of the program?

 

Also, is there a particular reason you want to rush through?  Your child is 6.  Reading, writing and spelling are all useful skills but he is being exposed to lots and lots of literature and content knowledge even without those skills.  He has time, doesn't he?  Is there a specific reason you feel he must rush through Level 3?  Level 4 is tough.  Why rush him through Level 3?

 

Not trying to be contentious or argumentative at all.  I just am very confused.  If you don't feel like clarifying, feel free to ignore me.   :lol:

[Heathermomster]

I've never read his books.  Based upon feedback read on this board, I was left with the impression that Foss wanted parents of dyslexics to seriously advocate and make changes at the ps level.  Like the advocacy was a duty or something.

 

At the private school level, I advocated and grew tired of it. ETA:  There were times when the leadership at the school was deliberately obtuse.  I also spoke with the PS early on and wanted no part of it.  I disagree wholeheartedly with my local PS for several reasons.  If Foss felt as I described, I would struggle with what he had to say.

 

Seven years ago, when I was speaking with the local dyslexia school about enrolling DS, the thinking at the time was catch up the student well enough to mainline back into the classroom.  That thinking feels counter to me because even with accommodations, straight up traditional classroom teaching is about the least effective way to instruct a dyslexic learner.  Like I stated above.  I have never read Foss, so he may think completely different from what I expect.

 

 

[FairProspects]

 

I was also realizing, and this is dumb, that it might be time for an actual handwriting workbook.  Has anyone used such a thing with a 6 yo?  I'm not strongly committed to doing the spelling in Barton.  I don't know what I'm going to do with that, as a matter of fact, and it's creating angst in my soul.  Like I broke out with atopic dermatitis (that I've probably only had bits on my hand of but basically never had before).  It's clearing up and wasn't much.  It's just you sort of stress thinking about all these things.  Anyways, I want to go forward through Barton more quickly and I'm concerned that by joining the writing and *requiring* the writing I might get to amounts that are either not age-appropriate or not him-appropriate.  So I don't know.  I've thought about culling the spelling off and doing it but doing it on a slower track.  I've got the handwriting automaticity to keep working on.  I could make handwriting sheets using the spelling words.  I like what Barton is doing with her progression of writing skills.  I could do it but just do a dab (introductory) rather than going whole hog.  I could do a dab and a handwriting book.  He likes humor, so if I did a handwriting workbook with humor he would actually LIKE that.  You know, like those Draw Write Now books or something?  Aren't they supposed to be the bees' knees?  

 

 

Yes, we had success for both dysgraphic kids with HWOT at 5/6.

[Heathermomster]

OhE, WRT handwriting.  If your child is motivated by handwriting workbooks, use them.  

[Lecka]

I liked the book.  I read it as soon as it was available at our library.

 

I do not agree with everything he says. 

 

He is not similar to my son, in that ---- my son had high-quality intervention at a young age.  He did not.

 

I like his style, too.  I think he is a fighter.  I think he is abrasive, too, but I don't mind, b/c I like him overall, and so he is not primarily abrasive to me. 

 

As of today, right now, I don't have a huge take-away from his book in practical terms. 

 

I have no regrets about my son's reading intervention or speech therapy.  I could have done some things better, but it was not a waste of time.  The pay-off is worth it.  My son is a reader.  He could be a reader anyway, by listening and speed-listening.  But -- I find value in eye-reading.  Even though I think it is a bit of a waste of time to learn a technical skill that is not necessary when we have so many ways to get around it. 

 

(Separately -- I loved a science fiction story when I was younger, about a society where certain jobs were only available to people who had never learned to read, because they had different neural pathways.  They learned by watching videos and from hands-on training.  The main character wishes he could have this certain job, but can't because he knows how to read.  His younger brother does not want the job, he has always been mechanical and fixed things by watching instructional videos ------ but in the story, he must do this job.  It was a great story.  And, it came off as believable that reading would just not be a necessary skill for everyone to have in this futuristic society.) 

 

But it is not a book that is about early intervention for young kids. 

 

And this is also the case for me ------ reading helped my son's speech.  It helped his language.  Seeing the letters in the words helps him to know what letters he is hearing in words. 

 

I do not think that language development is greater in reading vs. listening to the same level of materials. 

 

I DO think that if a child has problems in knowing what they are hearing when they hear a word, then being able to see the letters will help them to get the word straight in their mind. 

 

I do not think it is priceless for that, but I think YES it is worth the early intervention. 

 

Speech therapy was worth the speech therapy.  OT was worth doing. 

 

I have regretted that they took up time that could have been spent doing other worthwhile things, and that is what it is.  I think it is very important to keep perspective.  But -- the pay-off is real. 

 

If I was still trying to eke out more gains ------ at this point, I am not.  I think I could be.  My son is not one of the better readers.  But, he is a good reader.  He is a proud reader. He can read for 50 minutes.  He can enjoy reading.  He can carry around his Harry Potter book and think he is hot stuff.  These are things that are valuable to me. 

 

He is not as well-rounded as he could be, there are areas where I have not placed the same level of effort. 

 

And here is the thing ------ he is 9 now, in 4th grade.  When I talk to him, he remembers having trouble with reading in 2nd grade.  He does not remember how much trouble he had prior to 2nd grade -- he has forgotten.  He remembers liking his K teacher (that I despise, ugh)!  He remembers all the good parts of 1st grade! 

 

He does not remember the summer between K and 1st when I had him doing so much reading intervention. 

 

He does not remember how difficult private speech was in 1st grade.  He remembers a few things about it, but not much.  He does not remember it in a bad way, he just remembers things like "I made this pencil holder out of craft sticks when I went to speech therapy at the university." 

 

So he seems like he is the opposite of being scarred ---- he doesn't even have a strong memory. 

 

He remembers more about math facts, but that is about 2 years in the past (2nd grade timed facts ----- very, very bad at the time ----- crying ----- teacher let him do them orally in the hallway with an aide when I told her he was crying about it at home).  I think it (finally I can say this) is not something he holds deeply anymore.

 

But anyway ----- I still think I could have relaxed more along the way, been more positive, and some things like that.  But no, I do not regret it.  But yes, I understand Ben Foss's perspective and I think my son may go more in this direction as he gets older.  It still remains to be seen how fast my son will read and if he could be more efficient by listening at an increased rate.  It is something I keep in mind.

 

But right now typing is my number one priority with him.  He is doing 15 minutes a day Keyboarding Without Tears and it seems like it is going well.  He has not been doing it long enough for me to see if it "works" for him, but it is going well for now. 

[PeterPan]

I can't do it on my TV, perhaps people with fancy TVs can. 

 

I use a free program for viewing tv shows on my computer. (At least I think it's free) It's called VLC monitor. It has a menu bar across the top, one of the options is "Playback". I select that, then I select, "Faster". 

 

http://www.howtogeek.com/173222/10-useful-features-hidden-in-vlc-the-swiss-army-knife-of-media-players/

 

If you have any questions about VLC monitor I recommend you start a new thread. I know it's been mentioned on this board before and you can likely get all your questions answered.

I've used VLC for something ages ago, so I have that on my computer.  Interesting!

[PeterPan]

I guess I am sort of confused about what you mean with dropping spelling with Barton.  I can see continuing to modify handwriting and using something besides Barton for learning handwriting.  We do that, too.  But spelling is tied in to each lesson.  It isn't something separate.  It is part of the whole program.  The child is learning to spell as part of how they are learning to decode and read.  How would you remove spelling from the process without damaging the integrity of the program?

 

Also, is there a particular reason you want to rush through?  Your child is 6.  Reading, writing and spelling are all useful skills but he is being exposed to lots and lots of literature and content knowledge even without those skills.  He has time, doesn't he?  Is there a specific reason you feel he must rush through Level 3?  Level 4 is tough.  Why rush him through Level 3?

 

Not trying to be contentious or argumentative at all.  I just am very confused.  If you don't feel like clarifying, feel free to ignore me.   :lol:

Someone might be ready to read at a level beyond what they can spell.  Someone might be ready to read beyond what they might WANT to spell.  Spelling will take time and slow him down.  Her slowing involves handwriting.  His motor planning for the handwriting is not yet solid.  She anticipates an older student who is already writing.  

 

I'm saying if by IQ he might like to read at a 3rd-4th grade level in the next few months, then there's no reason to hold him back saying must spell, must spell.  He might not give a rip about writing sentences and spelling at that level but he might enjoy READING at that level.

 

SWR has you cycle through every list and content at least twice.  My thought was to move forward through Barton, skip the spelling steps, then cycle back through a 2nd time for the spelling when he's a fuzz older.  Heresy, hehehe...  I can't be alone in this thought, since AAS/AAR does the exact same thing, mercy.

 

Sorry, but I've homeschooled 11 years now.  I rip apart and rearrange anything I want.  Not meaning to be snotty, just saying.  Spelling might have been Barton's theory to integrate for her audience, but I have a younger audience.  It's not the crime of the world to think through whether it's appropriate to change it for a much younger, higher IQ audience.  That's the trouble with entirely scripted curricula.  They're implying push through the system and just listen but aren't really discussing the theory and how to make those hard choices.  I've seen the data showing his progress in reading will be DIRECTLY correlated to the length he reads at that level.  The sooner he reads at the level his IQ wants, the better.  The psych was ADAMANT about this and I've seen enough research data to agree. There's no compelling reason to hold him back for the sake of spelling.  It's not good to do *no* writing, but that doesn't mean I have to keep all Barton's components together.

 

So I'm pushing because the psych said to, yes.  And so far it has been working really well.  I guess the worst that happens is I push forward, putting those spelling lessons to a slower pace, and then go RATS THAT DIDN'T WORK and cycle back to them.  But as long as the fluency is coming and we're not utterly neglecting it, just slowing it down, I'm probably ok.  I hadn't thought of it that way, to pursue my radical ideas fearlessly and only change if I realize they don't work, oops.

 

Hardest thing to me is listening to your gut and the still, small voice.

[PeterPan]

Lecka, that's so interesting to hear how it turned out with your ds!!  Yes, that's EXACTLY something my dh and I talked about.  We agreed to push as hard as he can physically tolerate with intervention (which is basically 1 hour a day of Barton, can't handle more) because our theory was that he would probably forget the unpleasantness of that and just have the good.  So that's amazing to hear that's how it turned out for your ds.  He's so young he doesn't yet compare or realize it's abnormal.  To him it's just how it is that he goes to speech or works an hour a day on Barton.  

 

And yes, I wondered if maybe Foss didn't have the benefit of early interventions.  I think everybody has a place in the world and what they're doing so it sounds like he's doing his thing.  

 

Oops, he wants to eat.  Again.

[Tokyomarie]

I've never read his books.  Based upon feedback read on this board, I was left with the impression that Foss wanted parents of dyslexics to seriously advocate and make changes at the ps level.  Like the advocacy was a duty or something.

 

This is how Ben Foss's comments related to homeschooling struck me. It felt to me like he was telling parents that they have an obligation to put their child in public school or they won't be fulfilling their advocacy duty. That may or may not be precisely what he thinks but that's how it hit me when I first read what he wrote. I read his words only about a year after I had a school advocacy experience that left me deeply exhausted and angry. Public schools need to be pushed to identify and educate students with dyslexia properly but the advocacy shouldn't come at the expense of children who need proper instruction NOW. Parents need to feel free to make the choices for their family that fit their family's needs and not feel guilted into sacrificing their children to contribute to the greater good of society.

[FairProspects]

Someone might be ready to read at a level beyond what they can spell.  Someone might be ready to read beyond what they might WANT to spell.  Spelling will take time and slow him down.  Her slowing involves handwriting.  His motor planning for the handwriting is not yet solid.  She anticipates an older student who is already writing.  

 

I'm saying if by IQ he might like to read at a 3rd-4th grade level in the next few months, then there's no reason to hold him back saying must spell, must spell.  He might not give a rip about writing sentences and spelling at that level but he might enjoy READING at that level.

 

SWR has you cycle through every list and content at least twice.  My thought was to move forward through Barton, skip the spelling steps, then cycle back through a 2nd time for the spelling when he's a fuzz older.  Heresy, hehehe...  I can't be alone in this thought, since AAS/AAR does the exact same thing, mercy.

 

 

Yes. This is one of my biggest complaints about Barton for young users. Younger dyslexics who are identified early really want to get reading in a method that works for them. Tying reading to spelling and writing is a mistake for youngers, IMHO. Those skills just don't evolve on the same timetable. Barton was really written for remediating older students who have mastered the early writing (and to some extent spelling) skills. When you start with a young dyslexic you have to tweak it or supplement these aspects. Barton moves so slowly that it doesn't function very well as a stand alone reading program for younger dyslexics IMHE.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Someone might be ready to read at a level beyond what they can spell.  Someone might be ready to read beyond what they might WANT to spell.  Spelling will take time and slow him down.  Her slowing involves handwriting.  His motor planning for the handwriting is not yet solid.  She anticipates an older student who is already writing.  

 

I'm saying if by IQ he might like to read at a 3rd-4th grade level in the next few months, then there's no reason to hold him back saying must spell, must spell.  He might not give a rip about writing sentences and spelling at that level but he might enjoy READING at that level.

 

SWR has you cycle through every list and content at least twice.  My thought was to move forward through Barton, skip the spelling steps, then cycle back through a 2nd time for the spelling when he's a fuzz older.  Heresy, hehehe...  I can't be alone in this thought, since AAS/AAR does the exact same thing, mercy.

 

Sorry, but I've homeschooled 11 years now.  I rip apart and rearrange anything I want.  Not meaning to be snotty, just saying.  Spelling might have been Barton's theory to integrate for her audience, but I have a younger audience.  It's not the crime of the world to think through whether it's appropriate to change it for a much younger, higher IQ audience.  That's the trouble with entirely scripted curricula.  They're implying push through the system and just listen but aren't really discussing the theory and how to make those hard choices.  I've seen the data showing his progress in reading will be DIRECTLY correlated to the length he reads at that level.  The sooner he reads at the level his IQ wants, the better.  The psych was ADAMANT about this and I've seen enough research data to agree. There's no compelling reason to hold him back for the sake of spelling.  It's not good to do *no* writing, but that doesn't mean I have to keep all Barton's components together.

 

So I'm pushing because the psych said to, yes.  And so far it has been working really well.  I guess the worst that happens is I push forward, putting those spelling lessons to a slower pace, and then go RATS THAT DIDN'T WORK and cycle back to them.  But as long as the fluency is coming and we're not utterly neglecting it, just slowing it down, I'm probably ok.  I hadn't thought of it that way, to pursue my radical ideas fearlessly and only change if I realize they don't work, oops.

 

Hardest thing to me is listening to your gut and the still, small voice.

Got it.  Makes sense.  I do agree that Barton really is for a bit older kid.  I wish there were something like Barton that was designed for the younger set.   

 

For DD and DS, both, the breaking down and rebuilding of words in all the various ways has been so tied together for successfully learning how to read and spell, I just haven't seen a need to separate anything.  It is like a house of cards and without one side, the other doesn't seem to hold up for them, KWIM?  They both started when they were older, though.  With DS, because of the dysgraphia issues, I have definitely been modifying the writing part, but we just use a dry erase or keep using the tiles or whatever works for that day and that particular part of the lesson.

[PeterPan]

This is how Ben Foss's comments related to homeschooling struck me. It felt to me like he was telling parents that they have an obligation to put their child in public school or they won't be fulfilling their advocacy duty. That may or may not be precisely what he thinks but that's how it hit me when I first read what he wrote. I read his words only about a year after I had a school advocacy experience that left me deeply exhausted and angry. Public schools need to be pushed to identify and educate students with dyslexia properly but the advocacy shouldn't come at the expense of children who need proper instruction NOW. Parents need to feel free to make the choices for their family that fit their family's needs and not feel guilted into sacrificing their children to contribute to the greater good of society.

Does this guy actually have kids?  If he doesn't, he's speaking totally from theory and might find himself changing his tune when he actually has his protective side kick in for his own kids.

[PeterPan]

Yes. This is one of my biggest complaints about Barton for young users. Younger dyslexics who are identified early really want to get reading in a method that works for them. Tying reading to spelling and writing is a mistake for youngers, IMHO. Those skills just don't evolve on the same timetable. Barton was really written for remediating older students who have mastered the early writing (and to some extent spelling) skills. When you start with a young dyslexic you have to tweak it or supplement these aspects. Barton moves so slowly that it doesn't function very well as a stand alone reading program for younger dyslexics IMHE.

 

 

Ok, then on the word of FairProspects I will modify!!  That's what my gut was saying.  Really, he couldn't move any faster than what we're doing.  I'm literally right at the edge of his fluency at every point.  So I don't feel like Barton is holding us back, if that makes sense.  It's really not rocket science or freaky to skip steps and come back to them later.  I just had to think it through in my mind and wrangle with bucking the EXPERTS once again, lol.

 

My write-up from the psych finally came today, hallelujah.  Beautiful write-up, nicely done.  Maybe not the smartest thing to read it in public at the gym, since I kept TALKING to it.   :lol:   Anyways, he says it in his report.  He is ADAMANT that we work aggressively on the reading intervention and get him reading as close to IQ level as possible as soon as possible.  So I'm going against counsel if I don't do that, and frankly his very hunger seems to dictate it.  He enjoys what he's learning and his new ability to connect with print environmentally.  He's been listening to the Ramona books (audible) and asked tonight if he could have "silent reading"...  I don't think he knows what it is (actually he does), but he wants it!   :lol:

 

So yes, on the word of FP we are gonna plow forward!  I've already laid the foundation physically and conceptually for the early lessons of level 3, so we're just gonna keep whatever pace he can handle for fluency.  I've been typing the words into Quizlet to use on his kindle (private lists) and we just keep going through them.  It's amazing to seem them so crunchy and then slowly get better.  That's why I'm saying Barton isn't actually holding us back because I really couldn't get fluency any faster than what we're doing.  He's just not physically capable of more.

 

The psych report had some other interesting phrases and twists.  He recommended trying to get him in a gifted program.  I was realizing that would definitely push the envelope and require him to own the label, wow.  (in a gifted program but not reading)  His WIAT scores were fascinating.  Sentence comprehension was very low (25th percentile?) but his academic scores were grades 2.7 and 4.8 for content.  Wild.  Just all over the place.  

 

So I don't think it's wrong at all to say a super bright kid ought to be given the opportunity to read as much as he wants to read and to zoom through those levels of Barton if he wants to.  Using them makes ME happy.  They work and they're easy for me to implement. They're easy for me to make physical.  It would actually cost me more to do AAR because I wouldn't have the resale value.  My barton levels sold on ebay very quickly.  So I hear you on the issues and recognize my own cognitive rigidity on this, but it's working for me.

 

Now to indulge in chocolate pudding.

[PeterPan]

Got it.  Makes sense.  I do agree that Barton really is for a bit older kid.  I wish there were something like Barton that was designed for the younger set.   

 

For DD and DS, both, the breaking down and rebuilding of words in all the various ways has been so tied together for successfully learning how to read and spell, I just haven't seen a need to separate anything.  It is like a house of cards and without one side, the other doesn't seem to hold up for them, KWIM?  They both started when they were older, though.  With DS, because of the dysgraphia issues, I have definitely been modifying the writing part, but we just use a dry erase or keep using the tiles or whatever works for that day and that particular part of the lesson.

Oh I agree.  I mean, I taught dd with *spell* to write and read.  She spelled her way into reading with flashcards for fluency.  Even with her I saw that at a point we just had to work on fluency and come back to spelling later.

 

He (ds) is fascinating to me because he seems to *get* the idea of spelling.  Like tonight he was trying to spell pontoon!  Seriously!  For those who don't know, a pontoon is a slow-moving, typically flat-bottomed boat that you use for leisure rides on a lake.  He was reading "pond" and his little happy mind jumped from pond to pont to pontoon!  And you could tell he gets how to get there because he was sounding it out aloud.  I think it's just the years I taught SWR; I've been weaving spelling (with tiles, conceptually) into every step.  We did it with the LIPS faces, then squares, then letters, all the way through to 4 and 5 sound words and with multi-letter phonograms.  I've been cheating and adding in stuff all along because he's clearly ready for it.  Some of the things I add (underlining multi-letter phonograms) are just a convenience for me because that's how we did them with SWR.  

 

I think I'm just going to zoom ahead with fluency and let the writing and spelling come slowly behind.

[Julie of KY]

Barton - I started separating out the spelling with my daughter a few years ago. She was mastering the reading, but just not ready for all the spelling (because she wasn't writing). I found that using All About Spelling was a gentler pace on the spelling and complemented Barton well. At the moment she's on level 7 of Barton. We do all the spelling of the lessons, but not to mastery. I am currently focusing more on copywork and working on spelling that she uses in her writing. My little guy is on level 3 and doing all the spelling at the moment, but I suspect that it'd be better to start him on AAS to give it more attention. Also, I don't think he'll be able to keep up with the spelling rules too much longer. My daughter remembers a ton of the spelling rules through Barton but it has taken much more work for it to translate into her actual writing.

[Heathermomster]

OhE, I don't know how to say this.  I use LOE with DD and outside of the 5 words per lesson which I dictate, DD has never taken a spelling test.  Not only that, I have never purposefully had her take dictation until this week.  Yesterday, we started both spelling (30 words) and dictation with our lined LOE dry erase board, and she has made no spelling errors.  DD has been copying sentences with paper and pencil since the Fall.  If you lay off the spelling for now and work on the fine motor, I think your DS will be ok.

 

Why do I feel like I have made some terrible confession?

[PeterPan]

OhE, I don't know how to say this.  I use LOE with DD and outside of the 5 words per lesson which I dictate, DD has never taken a spelling test.  Not only that, I have never purposefully had her take dictation until this week.  Yesterday, we started both spelling (30 words) and dictation with our lined LOE dry erase board, and she has made no spelling errors.  DD has been copying sentences with paper and pencil since the Fall.  If you lay off the spelling for now and work on the fine motor, I think your DS will be ok.

 

Why do I feel like I have made some terrible confession?

:lol:   Confess away!!!  What a hoot, lol.  But you're right.  And you know, I have bigger pickles to fry.  This child doesn't understand LINES because we've been writing in salt.  I'm trying to explain to him sizes of the letters and why it matters about the proportions, all while keeping it more gross motor rather than going to fine motor.  What a mess.  But I'm RABID we're going to stay this way as long as necessary.  There is just no point going to paper when things aren't in order for it.

 

The psych report came today and he says SLD in reading and writing.  He uses dyslexia as a term throughout but he never says dysgraphia.  So is SLD in writing dysgraphia?  I'm confused because I THOUGHT I asked him that and I THOUGHT he said no.  But bold as brass, there it is, SLD in reading and writing, that's what it says.  I know, it's like parse every single little word!!  

 

And really, when I asked, he did say ds would have issues with writing because of the difference between processing speed and IQ.  Sigh.  So I don't know.  It was a good write-up btw.  He really blew it out of the ballpark giving me things to use for the IEP process, so I'm crazy happy about that.  And although I know I could be reading it again and parsing all those words, I'm just chewing on stuff that surprised me.  He used some particular terms over and over that are, well they're accurate but they have a lot of implications for how we work together and what we should be doing.  Some of them connected very directly to what we're discussing here with these ideas of owning your dyslexia, when you start that conversation with a little one, what the balance is.  He suggested getting him into programs for the gifted, which would of course require him to own his label (as the contrast would be very striking, oy).  His achievement scores on the WIAT were shocking even to me.  Some were 2.7 and 4.8, which I guess isn't amazing in the scheme of things but is pretty wild when you consider he had NO ability to interact with print and was just living this feral life that some had wanted to call psychopath in training (thanks).  Ok, I'm on a rabbit trail.

 

Anyways, tonight I discussed with him the idea of ear reading and eye reading and the value of the speed function and he seemed to take it all in stride, as if it seemed very reasonable to him (given his experiences so far with reading with Barton) that he would want to be able to ear read like his father and that faster ear reading would be better.  

 

So in my defense (since Geodob has been so horrified in the other thread) I'll say that AT THE RIGHT TIME I'm cool with having that conversation. But I'm not going to have it in the abrupt, horrified terms and timing the way the parent feels it.  Just because I got some slip of paper in the mail doesn't mean it's the right time to use the term.  We're gonna get there our own way.  But that video was definitely a huge epiphany for me, wow.  I really had not seen him accurately.  When you pair the Foss comments and what the psych is saying, it finally makes sense.  

 

So I don't know.  No matter how hard I try, I know I'm not doing enough.  Gotta bank on Lecka's happy memories and forget the rest, lol.  Part of it is that I defeat myself by listing in my mind ALL THE AMAZING things I'd like to do, then getting overwhelmed and realizing I CAN'T do all of them. 

 

Well anyways, at least the report is in!  Now to chew on it.  There were terms I hadn't heard of before and things I haven't got a CLUE what to do with.   :ohmy:

[PeterPan]

Barton - I started separating out the spelling with my daughter a few years ago. She was mastering the reading, but just not ready for all the spelling (because she wasn't writing). I found that using All About Spelling was a gentler pace on the spelling and complemented Barton well. At the moment she's on level 7 of Barton. We do all the spelling of the lessons, but not to mastery. I am currently focusing more on copywork and working on spelling that she uses in her writing. My little guy is on level 3 and doing all the spelling at the moment, but I suspect that it'd be better to start him on AAS to give it more attention. Also, I don't think he'll be able to keep up with the spelling rules too much longer. My daughter remembers a ton of the spelling rules through Barton but it has taken much more work for it to translate into her actual writing.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

[Heathermomster]

Liz, When DS was evaluated by an NP four months ago, he was given the SLD for written expression too.  I asked if that meant dysgraphia and was told "no".  DS was diagnosed with dysgraphia by two earlier NPs when he was aged 8 and 12 yo.  His handwriting and motor issues are about the same now, so I call the SLD for written expression dysgraphia.  Maybe someone with more knowledge can clarify.  Whatever the name is, my child still types all of his work except math.  New label..Same fun loving teenaged boy with chin whiskers. :D   Oh man...I just realized that I never told him about the new label. :svengo:

[hornblower]

I think part of this is how they're coding & determining SLD's now.

They're really teasing out written output disorder as being separate from a mechanical issue. My dd has beautiful fast handwriting. But she has written output disorder.

They should be coding 315.2 written output disorder  (source )
 

2. Specific learning disorder with impairment in written expression includes possible deficits in:

• Spelling accuracy
• Grammar and punctuation accuracy
• Clarity or organization of written expression

DSM-5 diagnostic code 315.2.

This article suggests that if there are mechanical issues as well, it should be coded separately

"For children with poor motor coordination that causes poor handwriting, a diagnosis of developmental coordination disorder (315.4/F82) may be appropriate."

From my convos with the ed psychologists they're trying to move away from the terms dyslexia and dysgraphia as they're considered too vague. Colloquially, that's still what's being used hwvr.

 

[PeterPan]

Hornblower, yes, that was what confused me too!  I SPECIFICALLY asked if he was getting a dysgraphia label, and the psych said no.  Then there was this SLD of written expression.  No, I don't think he's doing DCD.  I had asked about it and the psych (a neuropsych) was adamant he'd label it if he saw it.  Well fascinating, thanks for sorting that out.

 

So then what drove that?  And what about that crazy low sentence comprehension?  I haven't even had a chance to settle down and start researching it yet.  They're connected or is that something ELSE?  I guess that was weird to me, where he got the SLD of writing?  I'm not even disagreeing, but what was that based on?

[Lecka]

I wonder if the low sentence comprehension is a point-in-time score, that could rise, or if it is expected to stay the same?  

 

Off the top of my head -- I do not think I would get too attached to it, unless you have a real reason to think this score will not change.  

 

It is really just a score to let you know "here is something to work on" or "here is something to keep in mind."  

 

It is not a pronouncement.  

[hornblower]

I wonder if the low sentence comprehension is a point-in-time score, that could rise, or if it is expected to stay the same?  

 

Off the top of my head -- I do not think I would get too attached to it, unless you have a real reason to think this score will not change.  

 

It is really just a score to let you know "here is something to work on" or "here is something to keep in mind."  

 

It is not a pronouncement.  

 

If they're designating a certain SLD, they have to certify it's a permanent neurological disorder. That's what they write on the forms to get accommodations in testing etc. 

 

That said, I have my doubts. I have a feeling that if/when dd retests (there's a limit to how long you can use the same assessment) that  the results might be different. I don't know. But brains are plastic after all.....

[PeterPan]

Yeah my gut is something is wrong there.  I've been saying it for years and couldn't get people to listen.  Remember I'd come on here and say how I have to touch him and really get him to focus to understand instructions.  He can't repeat back and couldn't repeat even a short Bible verse until last year.  But he'll memorize paragraphs when left to listen/view over and over.  And when you talk with him it's hard to get a complete sentence.  And not hard in the grunty/lazy way but hard in the something is not right way.

 

And he has a gifted level verbal IQ.  That means it's not a grow out of it thing but that something is wrong.  And if I weren't fatigued from my dad's bladder cancer and pneumonia (sent him to the hospital today), ds' bacterial pink eye (started treating tonight), and my own physical weakness (would rather eat ice cream than fruit, must preach to myself), I'd get all this sorted out.  Sigh.  But tomorrow is another day.  

 

I'll need to reread the report a few times and make a list of questions to give the psych a buzz.  He used terms like cognitive rigidity and emotional fragility and I've gotta figure out what in the world to do with those.  Lecka, do you have any books on that? 

[TxMama]

Great discussion!

 

Coming in late, but thought I would add. My son has a dysgraphia diagnosis. It fell under Developmental Coordination Disorder. He also has a SLD-Written expression which is different. My dd's handwriting is terrible but she didn't get a DCD diagnosis.

 

I didn't really agree with one child getting the diagnosis and the other not, since both have terrible handwriting. However, yesterday they both had to take notes off a board for an art class. My son could not do this. He got about 2 names and a few dates and it is barely readable. We have been working on handwriting for at least 7 years. My daughter was able to do this. She got most of the notes and it is readable. NOT neat by any means, but you can read what she wrote. She is 3 years younger than her brother. I get the difference now.

 

I really liked the Ben Foss book. My take away is that we will eventually reach a point of diminishing return on remediation. At that point, it is better to focus time and energy on learning the tools that the person will need long term to reach their full potential.

 

For my son's dysgraphia, we have reached the point of diminishing return on remediation. He can write his name, complete a writing assignment that is not time sensitive and short ( job application type stuff), and make a list. However, he is going to be best served by learning and mastering other tools for writing that do not include handwriting. Typing ( which is difficult for him and he has not mastered) or Dragon Naturally Speaking will to be used for time sensitive writing assignments. We need to develop ways for him to get notes from a class. In college, having a note-taker or a copy of notes from the professor will be extremely important. I have to help him get to the point that he "owns" his dysgraphia so that he can be an advocate for himself and for others.

 

I'm glad I read Ben Foss's book so that I could recognize and respect the point of diminishing return.

 

 

[Julie of KY]

Yeah my gut is something is wrong there.  I've been saying it for years and couldn't get people to listen.  Remember I'd come on here and say how I have to touch him and really get him to focus to understand instructions.  He can't repeat back and couldn't repeat even a short Bible verse until last year.  But he'll memorize paragraphs when left to listen/view over and over.  And when you talk with him it's hard to get a complete sentence.  And not hard in the grunty/lazy way but hard in the something is not right way.

 

 

Elizabeth, your little guy has always sounded so much like my little guy but to somewhat more extreme. My little one was/is apraxic and only communicated with sign language until four. It was always so hard for him to find the sounds he needed to make. Eventually a switch flipped and he started talking and hasn't stopped. It stilll took a long time to get him to say little words like prepositions and it was like he didn't even register the words "the" and "a". It took forever to get him to even try out those words when repeating a phrase or sentence. He just always left them out. It was noticed also in neuropsych testing that he could remember the nouns/verbs but none of the connecting words. Teaching him reading has felt so much like teaching him to talk. He has such trouble finding which sound goes with every single letter. Now he can remember the sounds, but it is sooooo slow in combining them. He's a few weeks from turning eight and on level 3 of Barton.

 

On the dysgraphia side, my oldest has severe dysgraphia - both the language processing side of things as well as the physical output of letter formation. It's been a stuggle balancing how best to teach him.

[PeterPan]

 He also has a SLD-Written expression which is different. 

Thank you for sharing all this!  So then what is your take on what the SLD-written means?  He's 6.  I don't know what the psych was seeing or where he's coming from or what this means.  I have time with him in reserve where I can call him and ask questions, but I wasn't expecting this and don't know what to do with it.

[Lecka]

I do not know too much about cognitive rigidity, but in my son's drama therapy class, they have a thing where they have an empty paper towel ring, and they act out different ways they can pretend it is a different thing.  You can pretend it is a horn, you can pretend you are talking on the phone, you can pretend you are swinging a bat.  I saw their performance, and my daughter pretended it was a sword and said "en garde," and there was a boy who pretended it was a baseball bat.  Then there were about 5 kids in a row who pretended it was a horn, and then 5 kids in a row who pretended it was a phone. 

 

My son was doing well to be attending, standing in his space (they were lined up), passing the paper towel thing to the next child appropriately, and things like that.  He did not come up with an independent idea. 

 

But this is an example of something that is supposed to work on cognitive rigidity. 

 

A lot of things with playing pretend do this.

 

My son has things where, for example, he plays with the ABA therapist and his little man climbs up a ladder and then jumps down.  He might scream "NOOOOO" and try to hit his therapist (this is vastly improved -- but just giving a vivid example) if his therapist doesn't have the little man jump down.  The ABA therapist will probably not have the little man do what my son wants him to do (if it is excessively repetitive).  (Or she will probably change for him, if he uses his words instead of screaming.)  But she does not change the play too much at one time, so she is pushing him but not to the point of him not being able to handle it.  He is so, so improved with this now. 

 

Another example -- sometimes she plays that a bowl is a swimming pool and the little man gets in the swimming pool in different ways.  But then the same bowl might be a bath tub, and the little man takes a bath and gets cleaned up. 

 

So -- that is two different ways to play with the same item. 

 

That is considered something that is supposed to improve flexibility and decrease rigidity. 

 

It is, to some extent, treated as a behavior issue, b/c it is a behavior issue if my son is going to play around other kids and have a melt-down if he does not think they are playing with the toys "the right way." 

 

My son is not too much of a kid who needs to follow a routine, but if he was, then we could vary his routine and talk about varying it, probably using a visual schedule, and try to change it a little but not so much that he would not be able to handle it.  And then -- gradually increase the level/amount of changes. 

 

That is the kind of thing I can think of off the top of my head, and I do not know of any books. 

 

It is not quite something my son really struggles with -- it is a little, but it is not a top issue.  I am interested to hear about other resources, too. 

 

[PeterPan]

Elizabeth, your little guy has always sounded so much like my little guy but to somewhat more extreme. My little one was/is apraxic and only communicated with sign language until four. It was always so hard for him to find the sounds he needed to make. Eventually a switch flipped and he started talking and hasn't stopped. It stilll took a long time to get him to say little words like prepositions and it was like he didn't even register the words "the" and "a". It took forever to get him to even try out those words when repeating a phrase or sentence. He just always left them out. It was noticed also in neuropsych testing that he could remember the nouns/verbs but none of the connecting words. Teaching him reading has felt so much like teaching him to talk. He has such trouble finding which sound goes with every single letter. Now he can remember the sounds, but it is sooooo slow in combining them. He's a few weeks from turning eight and on level 3 of Barton.

 

On the dysgraphia side, my oldest has severe dysgraphia - both the language processing side of things as well as the physical output of letter formation. It's been a stuggle balancing how best to teach him.

Yup, I've been having him define every word in Barton as we read them for fluency.  He had NO clue what a/the were.  None.  It will be interesting to have a fresh speech eval by a different therapist.  All his work has been with one SLP and our SLP has always been very focused on the motor planning.  She farms out expressive language.  *I* think what we need is additional therapy specifically working on expressive language, but I don't know.  That meeting to start the ps evals is next week.  

 

And yes, I would say my ds' speech is better in some ways because of working on the reading.  As we've improved his phonemic awareness he can hear the sounds better to hit them more frequently.  So you hear more of the medial consonants than you did before in his speech.  He's less intelligible overall because we made the choice to pause ST and focus just on Barton right now.  ST takes so much of his brain energy that we felt it was better to do one or the other.  We did double ST up till his evals in October and we've taken off since then.  Our plan is to get the ps evals, hopefully get new funding lined up, and then start back in.  He needs it, but it seemed like we couldn't have both speech progress AND reading progress.  I use his speech methodology to input sounds and help him feel sounds in words, but we aren't working on speech formally right now at all.  His overall intelligibility is suffering as a result but we're getting reading.  Don't know what will happen when we resume ST, sigh.  What seems like a blistering pace in Barton could slow down.

[PeterPan]

I do not know too much about cognitive rigidity, but in my son's drama therapy class, they have a thing where they have an empty paper towel ring, and they act out different ways they can pretend it is a different thing.  You can pretend it is a horn, you can pretend you are talking on the phone, you can pretend you are swinging a bat.  I saw their performance, and my daughter pretended it was a sword and said "en garde," and there was a boy who pretended it was a baseball bat.  Then there were about 5 kids in a row who pretended it was a horn, and then 5 kids in a row who pretended it was a phone. 

 

My son was doing well to be attending, standing in his space (they were lined up), passing the paper towel thing to the next child appropriately, and things like that.  He did not come up with an independent idea. 

 

But this is an example of something that is supposed to work on cognitive rigidity. 

 

A lot of things with playing pretend do this.

 

My son has things where, for example, he plays with the ABA therapist and his little man climbs up a ladder and then jumps down.  He might scream "NOOOOO" and try to hit his therapist (this is vastly improved -- but just giving a vivid example) if his therapist doesn't have the little man jump down.  The ABA therapist will probably not have the little man do what my son wants him to do (if it is excessively repetitive).  (Or she will probably change for him, if he uses his words instead of screaming.)  But she does not change the play too much at one time, so she is pushing him but not to the point of him not being able to handle it.  He is so, so improved with this now. 

 

Another example -- sometimes she plays that a bowl is a swimming pool and the little man gets in the swimming pool in different ways.  But then the same bowl might be a bath tub, and the little man takes a bath and gets cleaned up. 

 

So -- that is two different ways to play with the same item. 

 

That is considered something that is supposed to improve flexibility and decrease rigidity. 

 

It is, to some extent, treated as a behavior issue, b/c it is a behavior issue if my son is going to play around other kids and have a melt-down if he does not think they are playing with the toys "the right way." 

 

My son is not too much of a kid who needs to follow a routine, but if he was, then we could vary his routine and talk about varying it, probably using a visual schedule, and try to change it a little but not so much that he would not be able to handle it.  And then -- gradually increase the level/amount of changes. 

 

That is the kind of thing I can think of off the top of my head, and I do not know of any books. 

 

It is not quite something my son really struggles with -- it is a little, but it is not a top issue.  I am interested to hear about other resources, too. 

That's interesting!  I'll have to think about ways to translate that to what ds finds interesting.  I'm not an exceptionally flexible person myself, meaning I'm not really the best to model this.  I've seen people talking about using the game Flux for this and I thought I might pursue it.  The rules change constantly so it's supposed to work on your flexibility.