S/O Gender Identity Thread: Suicide. Why do some choose it but not others?

[TranquilMind]

What does "objectively" mean in this context?

You can evaluate based on a superficial glance from the outside.

 

Things you can not see, but that are objective just as well are: genetic disposition for mental illness, childhood trauma, troubling situations in extended family, an unhealthy environment at work, prior exposure to harmful chemical.... there is an endless list of factors that can affect a person's well being beyond the easily observable "married, in a job, two adult kids". In fact, as an outsider, you are not even in a position to judge whether they are really in a happy marriage. For all you know they may have troubles they choose not to share with you.

True enough.

 

But what I meant by " objectively" is that there is enough food, a home, some companionship, some support level, enough money not to be starving or desperate. 

 

Sure you never know, but objectively speaking, some people have it far harder than others. 

[SeaConquest]

Well, ok.  I guess I can only speak for all of the adult women that I know, both in my family and as friends - all of whom have had tremendous lows at various times, often with good reasons (death of children, of marriage, major illness, etc).   

 

I think it is rather dismissive to suggest that all don't experience the highs and the lows.  I think we do, and I think that is the common denominator to humankind. 

But no way to quantify, so it is what it is. 

 

Do you not see how loaded your language is in this thread? As I sat in the hospital, I used the same judgmental language with myself that you are using here. "Why am I in the hospital with these people? They've had terrible things happen to them. My life is great in comparison. I have no good reason to be this depressed." And that type of judgmental self-talk just made the depression (and concomitant suicidal thoughts) worse.

 

Yes, everyone experiences highs and lows. But, not everyone experiences mood swings akin to Mt. Everest and the Mariana Trench. Unmedicated, my mood swings are several standard deviations from the norm.

[Dory]

Well, ok.  I guess I can only speak for all of the adult women that I know, both in my family and as friends - all of whom have had tremendous lows at various times, often with good reasons (death of children, of marriage, major illness, etc).   

 

I think it is rather dismissive to suggest that all don't experience the highs and the lows.  I think we do, and I think that is the common denominator to humankind. 

But no way to quantify, so it is what it is. 

 

Oh dear no, I didn't mean to say that everyone doesn't experience highs and lows. You're right, that's pretty common to humankind. But there is HUGE variety to how high the highs can be and how lows the lows can be. There is a range that humans can live in and be ok, and then there are people that can't stay inside the range. They don't just have highs, they have moments that border on manic, they don't just have lows, they have times where they can't think in a straight line (frontal cortex very shut down), can't function, can't work up enough oomph to shower, cook, and so on. It feels like you are stuck at the bottom of an well so deep that you can't even see the top anymore. It's a dark mucky hole and you can't move, can't think, can't do anything to get out of it because you can't see anything but the dark.

[TranquilMind]

Do you not see how loaded your language is in this thread? As I sat in the hospital, I used the same judgmental language with myself that you are using here. "Why am I in the hospital with these people? They've had terrible things happen to them. My life is great in comparison. I have no good reason to be this depressed." And that type of judgmental self-talk just made the depression (and concomitant suicidal thoughts) worse.

 

Yes, everyone experiences highs and lows. But, not everyone experiences mood swings akin to Mt. Everest and the Mariana Trench. Unmedicated, my mood swings are several standard deviations from the norm.

Well, for some people, "I have no good reason to be this depressed" is true.

 

I defy you to find the person who has not experienced this feeling or said those words (or a variation) to himself/herself.  Even people whom I would say have far more reason, objectively-speaking, have said this.

[TranquilMind]

Oh dear no, I didn't mean to say that everyone doesn't experience highs and lows. You're right, that's pretty common to humankind. But there is HUGE variety to how high the highs can be and how lows the lows can be. There is a range that humans can live in and be ok, and then there are people that can't stay inside the range. They don't just have highs, they have moments that border on manic, they don't just have lows, they have times where they can't think in a straight line (frontal cortex very shut down), can't function, can't work up enough oomph to shower, cook, and so on. It feels like you are stuck at the bottom of an well so deep that you can't even see the top anymore. It's a dark mucky hole and you can't move, can't think, can't do anything to get out of it because you can't see anything but the dark.

Is there, really, a huge variation to how high and low the highs and lows are for any given person?  How do you know? 

 

Maybe we all have exactly the same feelings, the same highs and lows and just respond to them differently? 

[Meadowlark]

Well, for some people, "I have no good reason to be this depressed" is true.

 

I defy you to find the person who has not experienced this feeling or said those words (or a variation) to himself/herself. Even people whom I would say have far more reason, objectively-speaking, have said this.

What in the world do you mean by this? Are you seriously saying that just because a person appears to "have it all" that they have no reason or right to be depressed? We never can truly know what's going on inside a person, and no matter how great your life is, it doesn't mean you can't be depressed. I hope I misread your post and that's not what you mean.

[TranquilMind]

How is it different? They are all being raised the same and yet one wants to be a farmer and another a structural engineer. That's pretty vastly different choices for having come from the same household. Why are different decisions ok for those decisions and you don't question them or wonder, but as soon as the decision is one you don't like, you question it? What about other major choices? Marriage at a super young age? Lots of kids versus no kids?

 

Life ends for everyone, some people might just feel that their life would be better ended a little earlier. No one questions the guy who had a heart attack at 40. It's ok if the heart can't handle it, but if the brain starts shutting down that's bad?

 

It's hard to lose loved ones. It's hard whether they are 80 or 30. But sometimes a person just can't handle it. Whether it's their mind that can't handle it, or their heart, or their liver, or any other body part.

 

Really the brain is the most complex part and the most likely to malfunction.

Life does end for everyone; this is a 100% certainty.  Why end it before the end when people love you and care about you?    Why leave others to fend for themselves, like minor children, if you have them? 

 

The guy who has the heart attack and dies plays no active role in making that happen (excluding lifestyle factors, which could definitely have played a role, but not talking about that right now). 

 

Someone who kills himself actively makes it happen, which goes against all hardwiring of the human body for self-preservation. 

 

I see that as very different. 

[SeaConquest]

Well, for some people, "I have no good reason to be this depressed" is true.

 

I defy you to find the person who has not experienced this feeling or said those words (or a variation) to himself/herself.  Even people whom I would say have far more reason, objectively-speaking, have said this.

 

You don't seem to fathom that my "good" reason for feeling so depressed is that I have a mental illness. Or perhaps you don't feel this is a good enough reason?

[LucyStoner]

True enough.

 

But what I meant by " objectively" is that there is enough food, a home, some companionship, some support level, enough money not to be starving or desperate.

 

Sure you never know, but objectively speaking, some people have it far harder than others.

I've experienced your "objective lows". I've lived though times as a child where I didn't have enough food, didn't have enough money to live even a modestly stable life, didn't have a roof over my head much less a home. I was also a rape survivor before my 12th birthday. I've experienced depression. I've never experienced any sustained suicidal thoughts or ideation. This is not because I perservered and triumphed. It's because I didn't have the kind of depression or mental health condition that got me to the point of seriously wanting to die.

 

After my second son was born, I had a much more severe bout of depression. My life was "objectively better" than my life as a child- I was physically safe, in a happy marriage, owned a nice home, had plenty of money to all of my needs and then some but that was probably when I came the closest to anything approaching a suicidal depression. I had full blown breaks with reality and would anxiously pace the house, convinced people were coming to get me. My husband thankfully got me into treatment right away, thankfully I was willing to go and thankfully the treatment, which was a mix of medicine, therapy and self care choices, worked.

[Caroline]

Well, for some people, "I have no good reason to be this depressed" is true.

 

I defy you to find the person who has not experienced this feeling or said those words (or a variation) to himself/herself. Even people whom I would say have far more reason, objectively-speaking, have said this.

Do you not believe that depression and other mental illnesses are due to chemistry?

[TranquilMind]

What in the world do you mean by this? Are you seriously saying that just because a person appears to "have it all" that they have no reason or right to be depressed? We never can truly know what's going on inside a person, and no matter how great your life is, it doesn't mean you can't be depressed. I hope I misread your post and that's not what you mean.

I'm saying that sometimes one cannot seem to count his blessings at the moment.    Sure, life's rough for everyone.  Geez, get over yourself (I've said to myself, at times).  Some people have it much, much worse.  I guess when you grow up like I did, watching someone suffer and die a slow death, you more quickly get to the the admonition to  "Get over yourself" when you are having a bad time, which I fully admit that we ALL do. 

I know it happens to all of us, but I still have difficulty understanding the effort required to sublimate the instinct for survival and kill yourself anyway when I have watched people try hard to live. 

 

I guess I always will have difficulty with that, coming from the perspective that I do. 

[QueenCat]

Some have identical lives to mine, for example, in that they are married several decades, have nearly grown kids, a happy marriage...whatever other facts you want to throw in, and they still kill themselves.  Why? 

 

 

 

Chemical depression isn't about how good or bad you have it. It's a medical condition, that when severe enough can make you feel hopeless enough to want to die.

[Dory]

Is there, really, a huge variation to how high and low the highs and lows are for any given person?  How do you know? 

 

Maybe we all have exactly the same feelings, the same highs and lows and just respond to them differently? 

 

That right there is how one defines how high and how low those highs and lows are. If one person feels that they can't function and yet another person feels that they can, then they don't feel the same do they and how their brain is processing the feeling is different. How else would you define how high or low a person is?

 

If My sister and I were both stung by a bee and both had the same amount of venom in our system and yet she ended up in the hospital, and I didn't can I really say that she and I had the same thing? Her body responded much more dramatically then mine did. Her brain told her system that something terrible was happening and responded with making the body swell, rash and almost kill her.

[TranquilMind]

Do you not believe that depression and other mental illnesses are due to chemistry?

 

 

 

 

I imagine that is true to some extent, but does not explain it all, by any means. 

[Meadowlark]

When my brother took a gun to his head and pulled the trigger, he had IT ALL! He was a good looking 33 yr. old man with the job of his dreams, his first serious girlfriend ever (which he proudly introduced us to a week before), had just bought his own house, etc. Is that reason enough for him to stick around and live a life of pain? He appeared to the outside world to be charming, the life of the party, the guy everyone wanted to be around. It doesn't make a hill of beans of sense to say that some people have no reason to be depressed. That's ridiculous! You feel what you feel and there's no control of that, especially when mental illness is present. Clearly, we need more education and understanding of the brain.

[TranquilMind]

That right there is how one defines how high and how low those highs and lows are. If one person feels that they can't function and yet another person feels that they can, then they don't feel the same do they and how their brain is processing the feeling is different. How else would you define how high or low a person is?

 

If My sister and I were both stung by a bee and both had the same amount of venom in our system and yet she ended up in the hospital, and I didn't can I really say that she and I had the same thing? Her body responded much more dramatically then mine did. Her brain told her system that something terrible was happening and responded with making the body swell, rash and almost kill her.

Maybe...maybe not.    You are merely speculating that they are not having the same experience and responding differently and there is no way to quantify it. 

 

The second is different, as there is a clear physical response that can be quantified (welts, airways close, etc), but yes, you both experienced a bee sting.  She is just allergic and you are not. 

 

You and I may well respond differently when walking into a home that contains cats, but the stimulus is the same for both of us; we had exactly the same experience.  If you aren't allergic, you will be fine.  I will be quickly getting out of Dodge to minimize my reaction.

 

Are you attempting to argue that some people have an "allergic reaction" to trauma, so to speak,  where others are resilient? 

 

Hmmm.  That's rather interesting to ponder. 

[TranquilMind]

When my brother took a gun to his head and pulled the trigger, he had IT ALL! He was a good looking 33 yr. old man with the job of his dreams, his first serious girlfriend ever (which he proudly introduced us to a week before), had just bought his own house, etc. Is that reason enough for him to stick around and live a life of pain? He appeared to the outside world to be charming, the life of the party, the guy everyone wanted to be around. It doesn't make a hill of beans of sense to say that some people have no reason to be depressed. That's ridiculous! You feel what you feel and there's no control of that, especially when mental illness is present. Clearly, we need more education and understanding of the brain.

I'm sorry about the loss of your brother. 

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm saying that sometimes one cannot seem to count his blessings at the moment. Sure, life's rough for everyone. Geez, get over yourself (I've said to myself, at times). Some people have it much, much worse. I guess when you grow up like I did, watching someone suffer and die a slow death, you more quickly get to the the admonition to "Get over yourself" when you are having a bad time, which I fully admit that we ALL do.

I know it happens to all of us, but I still have difficulty understanding the effort required to sublimate the instinct for survival and kill yourself anyway when I have watched people try hard to live.

 

I guess I always will have difficulty with that, coming from the perspective that I do.

This is incredibly dismissive of 1) science and 2) other people's experiences.

[Dory]

Life does end for everyone; this is a 100% certainty.  Why end it before the end when people love you and care about you?    Why leave others to fend for themselves, like minor children, if you have them? 

 

The guy who has the heart attack and dies plays no active role in making that happen (excluding lifestyle factors, which could definitely have played a role, but not talking about that right now). 

 

Someone who kills himself actively makes it happen, which goes against all hardwiring of the human body for self-preservation. 

 

I see that as very different. 

 

You say 'actively' like as if there is cognitive thought. If the rational part of the brain is not functioning at capacity, how can you say he is actively making it happen anymore then when the brain makes any other part of the body malfunction?

 

That would be like seeing an infant hit their head on the pavement and then say they actively were trying to cause brain damage themselves. Or finding my boys outside trying to get onto the roof so they could slide down. They must have been actively trying to hurt themselves. They just aren't capable of thinking through things thoroughly. We can understand children making poor choices because they lack the ability to think through things really well, why can't be understand that same thing when a person is struggling with depression, regression, panic attacks, or other things that inhibit cognitive thought. The mind simply starts looking for ways out of the constant pain, and if it is unable to find something due to functional problems, processing problems, or other things, it will go to pretty hefty extremes to stop the pain.

 

Some people are able to process the pain and emotions better then others. They are the ones that tend to walk away from horrors and be relatively ok.

[Meadowlark]

I'm saying that sometimes one cannot seem to count his blessings at the moment. Sure, life's rough for everyone. Geez, get over yourself (I've said to myself, at times). Some people have it much, much worse. I guess when you grow up like I did, watching someone suffer and die a slow death, you more quickly get to the the admonition to "Get over yourself" when you are having a bad time, which I fully admit that we ALL do.

I know it happens to all of us, but I still have difficulty understanding the effort required to sublimate the instinct for survival and kill yourself anyway when I have watched people try hard to live.

 

I guess I always will have difficulty with that, coming from the perspective that I do.

Yep-and I grew up saying to my brother "get over yourself!" its not THAT bad. In fact, he always brought me down because nothing ever measured up for him-not people, things or even food! He was an emotional roller coaster to be around. It wasn't until I grew up a little and realized that he had an illness. As a former Marine, he was too proud to get help. He knew from the beginning that he was different, that he couldn't experience happiness the way other people could. He just couldn't feel happy, as hard as he tried.

 

Ok, the tears started. I have to stop.

[TranquilMind]

You don't seem to fathom that my "good" reason for feeling so depressed is that I have a mental illness. Or perhaps you don't feel this is a good enough reason?

Ok.  I presume you are treating that with some sort of medication.  Does that not help? 

 

You seem really invested on proving that you have a "right to be depressed" and ensuring that others recognize it.

 

I prefer to assert that you have a right to be happy.  God made you (or alternatively stick in your own theory here) and you have many blessings, including children, I am presuming, if you are on this site.  There are good things still to come.  Every day won't be fabulous, but good days are coming.   

[Lawana]

Is there, really, a huge variation to how high and low the highs and lows are for any given person? How do you know?

 

Maybe we all have exactly the same feelings, the same highs and lows and just respond to them differently?

I know you pose this as a hypothetical, but I think there is likely great insight here. I wonder if you deep down believe we are all the same, in some fundamental way. Take the statement you made about being hard-wired for survival. I posit that not everyone has a strong survival instinct. I assert that based on personal experience. Yet you assume it to be a fact applicable to everyone.

 

I state again that unless and until you accept that There are fundamental differences between individuals, no answer will satisfy you.

[TranquilMind]

I know you pose this as a hypothetical, but I think there is likely great insight here. I wonder if you deep down believe we are all the same, in some fundamental way. Take the statement you made about being hard-wired for survival. I posit that not everyone has a strong survival instinct. I assert that based on personal experience. Yet you assume it to be a fact applicable to everyone.

 

I state again that unless and until you accept that There are fundamental differences between individuals, no answer will satisfy you.

We are all human.  We all have bodies that are made to work the same way (undamaged, that is - obviously, we have experienced things that somewhat alter that in some cases, such as thyroids that don't work or legs that might not work after an accident,or brain injuries etc). 

 

I don't think it is speculation to state that the way the human body works is to preserve itself at pretty much all costs.   

 

So you are talking about aberrations, not the way humans work or are built. 

[TranquilMind]

Yep-and I grew up saying to my brother "get over yourself!" its not THAT bad. In fact, he always brought me down because nothing ever measured up for him-not people, things or even food! He was an emotional roller coaster to be around. It wasn't until I grew up a little and realized that he had an illness. As a former Marine, he was too proud to get help. He knew from the beginning that he was different, that he couldn't experience happiness the way other people could. He just couldn't feel happy, as hard as he tried.

 

Ok, the tears started. I have to stop.

I'm sorry.

 

I do know what you are talking about, I'm sorry to say.

 

But that isn't the way things were supposed to be. 

[Dory]

Maybe...maybe not.    You are merely speculating that they are not having the same experience and responding differently and there is no way to quantify it. 

 

The second is different, as there is a clear physical response that can be quantified (welts, airways close, etc), but yes, you both experienced a bee sting.  She is just allergic and you are not. 

 

You and I may well respond differently when walking into a home that contains cats, but the stimulus is the same for both of us; we had exactly the same experience.  If you aren't allergic, you will be fine.  I will be quickly getting out of Dodge to minimize my reaction.

 

Are you attempting to argue that some people have an "allergic reaction" to trauma, so to speak,  where others are resilient? 

 

Hmmm.  That's rather interesting to ponder. 

 

Yes I am saying it's like an allergic reaction. Because all an allergic reaction is, is the brain telling the body that it needs to attack that thing. Why is it ok for the brain to over react to things like that and yet it's wrong for it to over react to less tangible things like feelings? So because you have a name for allergies they are ok for the brain and body to act like that? Really, feelings are usually different hormones and stimuli going into our brains and bodies, our responses are how our brains and bodies have learned or are programmed to respond to those hormones and stimuli. Some bodies and brains are less able to respond to them in what society would consider a reasonable way. Their brains over respond, shut down cognitive though and the amygdala goes into hyper drive. There are quanitified studied responses out there as to what happens in the brain when someone over reacts to certain trauma or stimuli.

 

If I smell certain smells I often will end up curled in a ball, talking like an articulate 5yo, and sometimes sucking my thumb. I don't 'choose' to do that (it's horribly humiliating), but my brain causes the actions. It is an over reaction to a stimuli. Same as a bee sting. And I can even take a pill to help ease the reaction if I need to. Just like a bee sting.

[Mrs Mungo]

We are all human. We all have bodies that are made to work the same way (undamaged, that is - obviously, we have experienced things that somewhat alter that in some cases, such as thyroids that don't work or legs that might not work after an accident,or brain injuries etc).

 

I don't think it is speculation to state that the way the human body works is to preserve itself at pretty much all costs.

 

So you are talking about aberrations, not the way humans work or are built.

Aberrations *are* how humans work. No two human bodies or brains are *exactly* the same or we wouldn't have cancer or PTSD or depression or bipolar disorder or diabetes or any other non-injury based disorder.

[obsidian]

We are all human.  We all have bodies that are made to work the same way (undamaged, that is - obviously, we have experienced things that somewhat alter that in some cases, such as thyroids that don't work or legs that might not work after an accident,or brain injuries etc). 

 

I don't think it is speculation to state that the way the human body works is to preserve itself at pretty much all costs.   

 

So you are talking about aberrations, not the way humans work or are built. 

i.e., humans with illnesses, including mental illnesses. Sometimes...people's organs don't work. The brain is an organ; sometimes the brain is diseased and doesn't work. Same way someone who has an autoimmune disease has a body that works to kill them.

[SeaConquest]

Ok.  I presume you are treating that with some sort of medication.  Does that not help? 

 

You seem really invested on proving that you have a "right to be depressed" and ensuring that others recognize it.

 

I prefer to assert that you have a right to be happy.  God made you (or alternatively stick in your own theory here) and you have many blessings, including children, I am presuming, if you are on this site.  There are good things still to come.  Every day won't be fabulous, but good days are coming.   

 

No, the medication does not help -- if by help you mean keep me from experiencing such debilitating manic and depressive mood swings that I still regularly end up in the hospital. 

 

The bolded is incredibly offensive, as I would give anything to be rid of this illness. I love my children and my husband, and find no joy in the pain that I regularly cause them.

 

At this point, I am stepping out of this thread. 

[TranquilMind]

No, the medication does not help -- if by help you mean keep me from experiencing such debilitating manic and depressive mood swings that I still regularly end up in the hospital. 

 

The bolded is incredibly offensive, as I would give anything to be rid of this illness. I love my children and my husband, and find no joy in the pain that I regularly cause them.

 

At this point, I am stepping out of this thread. 

I'm sorry.  No offense to you personally was intended.

 

I still assert that you have the right to be happy. 

[Meadowlark]

No, the medication does not help -- if by help you mean keep me from experiencing such debilitating manic and depressive mood swings that I still regularly end up in the hospital.

 

The bolded is incredibly offensive, as I would give anything to be rid of this illness. I love my children and my husband, and find no joy in the pain that I regularly cause them.

 

At this point, I am stepping out of this thread.

Hugs! I think life is hard, and I don't have your Illness. Although I cannot truly understand, I admire you and all others for fighting the fight each and every day.

[TranquilMind]

Aberrations *are* how humans work. No two human bodies or brains are *exactly* the same or we wouldn't have cancer or PTSD or depression or bipolar disorder or diabetes or any other non-injury based disorder.

But we don't want them, and defend them to others as "ours".

 

We say, "I'm currently experiencing this, but I hope to be much better soon."  Or something like that, at least in my world.

 

Sometimes things go wrong, but we want what is right and don't ever stop persevering toward that end, with varying levels of success...right? 

 

 

[Dory]

No, the medication does not help -- if by help you mean keep me from experiencing such debilitating manic and depressive mood swings that I still regularly end up in the hospital. 

 

The bolded is incredibly offensive, as I would give anything to be rid of this illness. I love my children and my husband, and find no joy in the pain that I regularly cause them.

 

At this point, I am stepping out of this thread. 

 

*hugs* I'm sorry. I've been unable to find medication that helps as well. Ativan is the closest I've come. I can only use it in emergency moments to ease the panic attacks or dissociation.

 

I'm sorry this thread has been hard for you.

 

[TranquilMind]

You asserting it isn't remotely helpful.

 

I feel for you. You are ill-educated on this topic, and unprepared to learn. That's rough. It's hard to have a blind spot this big. 

It's rough to be an optimist by nature. 

 

The world wants to work against you, that's for sure. 

[Dory]

But we don't want them, and defend them to others as "ours".

 

We say, "I'm currently experiencing this, but I hope to be much better soon."  Or something like that, at least in my world.

 

Sometimes things go wrong, but we want what is right and don't ever stop persevering toward that end, with varying levels of success...right? 

 

 

 

If you experience something for years on end, you are no longer going to have the 'hope' that you'll be much better soon. That would be like my cousins dd being born with one arm saying, "I'm experiencing this, but I hope to be much better soon." At some point a person realizes that some things are not going to go away.

 

 

ETA: for someone with a processing disorder to say they hope to be better soon would be foolish. They'd be better to try and work with who they are. Why is this different.

[maize]

True enough.

 

But what I meant by " objectively" is that there is enough food, a home, some companionship, some support level, enough money not to be starving or desperate.

 

Sure you never know, but objectively speaking, some people have it far harder than others.

Seen from the outside, my husband and I have very similar lives. We live in the same home, have the same children, participate in the same marriage, have both had periods of employment and periods at home, have similar educational and family backgrounds and support networks.

 

Dh suffers from serious clinical depression requiring medication and therapy. I do not.

 

From the perspective of our inner emotional experience, our lives are vastly different. My lows are absolutely not comparable to what he experiences when depressed.

[Meadowlark]

But we don't want them, and defend them to others as "ours".

 

We say, "I'm currently experiencing this, but I hope to be much better soon." Or something like that, at least in my world.

 

Sometimes things go wrong, but we want what is right and don't ever stop persevering toward that end, with varying levels of success...right?

 

I'm sure Dory and SeaConquest would be thrilled if you could reach a magic hand across cyberspace and take this away from them. Your implying that they can and should control this. They cannot. They haven't stopped persevering, that's why they're still here!

 

 

Oops, message is above.

[obsidian]

No, the medication does not help -- if by help you mean keep me from experiencing such debilitating manic and depressive mood swings that I still regularly end up in the hospital. 

 

The bolded is incredibly offensive, as I would give anything to be rid of this illness. I love my children and my husband, and find no joy in the pain that I regularly cause them.

 

At this point, I am stepping out of this thread. 

 

 

But we don't want them, and defend them to others as "ours".

 

We say, "I'm currently experiencing this, but I hope to be much better soon."  Or something like that, at least in my world.

 

Sometimes things go wrong, but we want what is right and don't ever stop persevering toward that end, with varying levels of success...right? 

 

[Lawana]

But we don't want them, and defend them to others as "ours".

 

We say, "I'm currently experiencing this, but I hope to be much better soon." Or something like that, at least in my world.

 

Sometimes things go wrong, but we want what is right and don't ever stop persevering toward that end, with varying levels of success...right?

 

 

It may shock you to know that no, everyone in not just like that. Some value things other than life at any cost.

[TranquilMind]

A friend of mine who is a cancer survivor posted this today:

"It is upsetting when people say that so-and-so lost their fight against cancer, as though the person did something wrong or insufficient and just couldn't get the job done."

 

I agree with that completely. It also applies to depression and suicide.

On that point, we definitely agree.  I hate obits that mention the cause of death, sometimes even Capitalized...as if "Cancer" is a person.  The point is that the person lived, and meant much to many, not which of the various causes of death to the body took him out of this plane of existence. 

 

I've written a few obituarites, but never one like that. 

[TranquilMind]

It may shock you to know that no, everyone in not just like that. Some value things other than life at any cost.

What are they valuing if they end life before its natural ending? 

[Mrs Mungo]

But we don't want them, and defend them to others as "ours".

 

We say, "I'm currently experiencing this, but I hope to be much better soon." Or something like that, at least in my world.

 

Sometimes things go wrong, but we want what is right and don't ever stop persevering toward that end, with varying levels of success...right?

 

 

What does this even mean? It doesn't matter if you want cancer or thyroid disease or diabetes or any other disease. If you have it, then you are generally never expected to have to defend its existence which is what you seem to be demanding of people who suffer from depression.

[maize]

It's rough to be an optimist by nature.

 

The world wants to work against you, that's for sure.

TM, I am an optimist by nature. I always have been.

 

But I have seen and experienced through those close to me the devastating reality of mental health problems. They change everything, and optimism cannot cure them.

[TranquilMind]

If you experience something for years on end, you are no longer going to have the 'hope' that you'll be much better soon. That would be like my cousins dd being born with one arm saying, "I'm experiencing this, but I hope to be much better soon." At some point a person realizes that some things are not going to go away.

 

 

ETA: for someone with a processing disorder to say they hope to be better soon would be foolish. They'd be better to try and work with who they are. Why is this different.

"Better soon" may not even mean an actual change in circumstances. .    Sometimes there IS an actual change, such as a disease is gone (experienced that and so have many others), or some other major change is finally accomplished by some means. 

 

 Maybe the person with the one arm learns to do new things over time, or gets a prosthetic arm that makes life much easier than before. 

Then, she is better, even this side of eternity.   

[Dory]

If a mother were to give her life for her child would you scoff at that? You say the body is innately programmed to live no matter what, and yet there are many instances where a mom puts her child's life before her own. No one looks down on a mom for that or questions how she was able to allow herself to die.

 

I'm  just trying to point out there there are scenarios where the body doesn't no immediately try to live no matter what. This is often one of those scenarios.

[TranquilMind]

What does this even mean? It doesn't matter if you want cancer or thyroid disease or diabetes or any other disease. If you have it, then you are generally never expected to have to defend its existence which is what you seem to be demanding of people who suffer from depression.

Never mind.  There is really no point in explaining the difference in perspective here. 

 

But this thread sure did go from "Why does this scenario occur" to personal at lightening speed, with people taking all kinds of offense along the way as if I personally called them out. 

 

I don't understand why we can't remain in the topic of "why" and "how" this occurs and discuss the parameters and differences, perhaps using personal anecdotes in an illustrative manner, without going all emotional on others, and leveling accusations on all sorts of slights not intended.  But then, that's me.   I've even had people close to me commit suicide.  I still wonder about it and can discuss it dispassionately (now, it's been awhile). 

 

When will I learn?

[LucyStoner]

It's rough to be an optimist by nature.

 

The world wants to work against you, that's for sure.

I am a hopeless optimist. I do not share your opinion here. Also, generally speaking optimists don't usually think everyone is out to get them.

[Farrar]

TM, in fact, studies have shown exactly that some brains are more resilient and others are less. There's some fascinating research along these lines talked about in the book Quiet. It's not only in terms of depression, but in terms of how people deal with stimuli in general.

 

It's interesting to me that a few people in this thread are finding the idea that brain chemistry is different from person to person so revolutionary and surprising. It's part of what makes us human, right? We're so different in some ways and yet so the same in others.

 

The idea that having a passing thought of I can't take it anymore or something along those lines is the same as having genuine depression is like someone saying, "I once had too much to drink, therefore I understand alcoholism," or, "I once had a cold, therefore I understand what having ebola is like," or, "I once colored a page in a coloring book, so I'm pretty much just like Monet."

[TranquilMind]

I am a hopeless optimist. I do not share your opinion here. Also, generally speaking optimists don't usually think everyone is out to get them.

Do you think people are out to get you?

 

Because I don't.

 

[Firefly]

Depression and suicidal tendencies can be situational, chemical, or a combination of both.  In my case it was chemical:

 

Before I had kids, when I was working as a therapist, I found treating depression the most challenging and frustrating-- mostly because it was something I didn't "get" on a visceral level, although I understood it objectively through my education and training as a therapist.  My nature is to be endlessly optimistic and appreciative of even the smallest things in my life.  But then, after my first child was born, I had pretty bad PPD.  It was awful.  I *wanted* to snap out of it; I hated feeling so desperately sad and miserable all the time.  But all the great things I had to look forward to, that used to bring me such joy, did absolutely nothing for me. It gave me newfound empathy for the struggle people who suffer from depression have.  I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[Dory]

"Better soon" may not even mean an actual change in circumstances. .    Sometimes there IS an actual change, such as a disease is gone (experienced that and so have many others), or some other major change is finally accomplished by some means. 

 

 Maybe the person with the one arm learns to do new things over time, or gets a prosthetic arm that makes life much easier than before. 

Then, she is better, even this side of eternity.   

 

But she isn't better. She has simply found a way to live with what life has dealt her. She doesn't function the same as someone with two arms, although prosthetic arms are getting pretty amazing. She is able to cope because she has found ways to help. But she isn't better.

 

For some people with mental disease, drugs can often help make life livable. They haven't been cured. They aren't better, they have simply found a way to live with what life has available for them. They have to accept their problem and try and work with it.

 

For some, they accept the long term problem, they try to work with it as best as they know how, and they are unable to find anything to help them cope and ease the pain. Often meds don't work. Telling them to suck it up would be like telling the quadriplegic to suck it up and pull it together and make their legs work. The drugs aren't working, the problem is still there.