Aops preA versus Algebra

[Roadrunner]

Is there a big jump in difficulty from preA to algebra? I know I am jumping ahead, but I am trying to figure out next year. If the kid only struggles with starred problems in preA book, would Algebra be doable? Or the difficulty of the Algebra book is much, much higher?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

For us, the first chapters went by quickly and felt like a review. The difficulty ramps up a bit further into the book, but it's still manageable. Of course everyone is different. We didn't notice a huge jump between the books. :) 

 

(We ended up switching midyear for many reasons. In some ways we preferred the Pre-A book. Some people like the writing in the AoPS Intro to Algebra books better, but I preferred the writing in Pre-A.)

[Roadrunner]

For us, the first chapters went by quickly and felt like a review. The difficulty ramps up a bit further into the book, but it's still manageable. Of course everyone is different. We didn't notice a huge jump between the books. :)

 

(We ended up switching midyear for many reasons. In some ways we preferred the Pre-A book. Some people like the writing in the AoPS Intro to Algebra books better, but I preferred the writing in Pre-A.)

Can I pick your brain a little more? :)

Would you say in ramps up in Algebra 2 portion?

How is the writing different? (I really should get the Algebra book now)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

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[Roadrunner]

There seemed to be lots more explanation in the first book. That is actually an often heard criticism - the explanations are too complicated. Our experience was that we could sift through the explanations and find which parts we needed. The problem we encountered with the algebra book was that it would sometimes explain what she didn't need explained, but leave out the explanations she needed, which was frustrating. She is extremely resistant to help for me, so I couldn't just jump in with an explanation or even a hint of some kind.

 

I'm not sure if her understanding is different than many kids, or what was happening. All I know is that often the only parts she actually needed explained in the solutions were the parts they left out. It was really quite bizarre sometimes. I don't hear this complaint from others, so this most likely won't be the case for you. :)

This is very helpful! There hasn't been much new material in preA, but we will need more explanation in Algebra most likely.

[Mukmuk]

Would you say in ramps up in Algebra 2 portion?

How is the writing different? (I really should get the Algebra book now)

 

Ds didn't do the Pre-alg book. He says the Intro to Alg book introduces simple concepts in every chapter (about the same across the book), but in the Alg 2 section, the questions have greater complexity ("awesomeness"). Each question requires a lot more interplay with previous concepts, so learn the early sections well.

 

From my memory, he had problems with proportions and graphing (chapters 7 and 8). He has visual processing difficulties, which may explain chapter 8. After that, it seems ok.

 

There were previous threads about which chapter was more difficult, so you may want to look that up just in case, for a headsup.

 

Good luck!

[Arcadia]

For my older, the difficulty level in PreAlgebra, Intro to Algebra and Intermediate algebra books are about the same. Intro to geometry was about the same too. He had to think harder for Intermediate C&P but he wanted to do the book so no complains.

 

The intro to algebra book is more concise than the prealgebra book maybe because the prealgebra book has more authors.

 

Most of the time the summary sections and the boxes in the AoPS books that have the important symbol are useful for review.

 

My younger so far has no problems but he takes longer to do any subjects as he is a perpetual daydreamer.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

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[Roadrunner]

Arcadia, that's good to know. DS is enjoying preA and I plan on getting SM 7a and 7b workbooks (they seem thin) to practice during summer before jumping into algebra. Or maybe take anther class over the summer.

[Roadrunner]

Chapter 7 was a stickler here as well.

 

FWIW, my daughter isn't profoundly gifted in math, she's just strong on-level (which often feels like it's hopelessly behind or remedial on this board... I should probably stop read and posting on these AoPS threads! :tongue_smilie: ) My point being that my experience might not be helpful to those using the books with younger kids who are most likely much more advanced. :) Take whatever I post with a grain of salt. ;)

 

I wish there were more voices of those who use the books on grade level, but I guess that's not the target audience. :)

 

PG is a genius kid, right? We are faaaar from that. :) I have no idea if my kid is even gifted since we never tested (we haven't had a reason). He is very good in math and advanced, but experience of PG kids isn't likely going to be his experience. I am so glad I see responses from everybody.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

PG is a genius kid, right? We are faaaar from that. :) I have no idea if my kid is even gifted since we never tested (we haven't had a reason). He is very good in math and advanced, but experience of PG kids isn't likely going to be his experience. I am so glad I see responses from everybody.

 

I don't think formal testing matters so much as what the child is doing. If a young child is thriving with AoPS ahead of grade level, suffice to say that's not a normal experience. Although, some days on this board I start to wonder! :tongue_smilie:  It's easy to lose track of normal, isn't it? ;)

[Arcadia]

DS is enjoying preA and I plan on getting SM 7a and 7b workbooks (they seem thin) to practice during summer before jumping into algebra.

I use the MEP unit tests for year 7-9 instead of using SM. I'm a cheapskate.

[Roadrunner]

I don't think formal testing matters so much as what the child is doing. If a young child is thriving with AoPS ahead of grade level, suffice to say that's not a normal experience. Although, some days on this board I start to wonder! :tongue_smilie: It's easy to lose track of normal, isn't it? ;)

I know what you mean! I have a fourth grader thriving in preA and given the standards of this board I see absolutely nothing special about it. :)

[Dmmetler]

4th grade in PA is 3 years ahead-which is the level of performance necessary to qualify for DYS via portfolio. And AOPS PA is an entirely different bear from most PA. A kid who is thriving in AOPS in 4th grade is a pretty advanced kid!

[EndOfOrdinary]

From what I have noticed, it seems that a lot of the algebra book is taking the concept from PreA and then really jumping into it. So the first two subsets might be the same-ish from PreA, but then the next four are way more involved. That would be for the Algebra 1 chapters. I had dreams of integrating the PreA and the Algebra. To align the chapters so you would begin in PreA, then merge into Algebra for whichever chapter. Alas, my son decided to be weird and skip the Algebra text until next year. He is going along with the Geo text. We own the Algebra, and I pull it out now and then to hint at how I am pretty sure something frustrating might just be explained inside. Still no dice on picking it up.

[Loesje22000]

Chapter 7 was a stickler here as well.

 

FWIW, my daughter isn't profoundly gifted in math, she's just strong on-level (which often feels like it's hopelessly behind or remedial on this board... I should probably stop reading and posting on these AoPS threads! :tongue_smilie: ) My point being that my experience might not be helpful to those using the books with younger kids who are most likely much more advanced. :) Take whatever I post with a grain of salt. ;)

 

I wish there were more voices of those who use the books on grade level, but I guess that's not the target audience. :)

 

I can't add to this thread as we are not in Intro A yet.

But just want to share you are not alone.

I am pondering what you said and wondered if you used the video's.

They are very important to dd.

 

Dd still thinks Chapter 2 in Pre-A was a fun one, the most interesting one so far.

I am not sure where we will switch, but no doubt we will switch to a more regular text.

We don't do the challenging problems, and I have to supplement AoPs with topics from our Belgian integrated math sequence.

 

My plan was to switch after Intro A, but now I doubt I should switch earlier ;)

[Arcadia]

We don't do the challenging problems, and I have to supplement AoPs with topics from our Belgian integrated math sequence.

 

My plan was to switch after Intro A, but now I doubt I should switch earlier ;)

To integrate, I have to use the Intro to Algebra, intro to C&P and intro to geometry books as well as statistics topics from MEP.

 

The intro to algebra as well as the intermediate algebra books topics are mainly from the Pure Maths portion of integrated maths.

[Loesje22000]

To integrate, I have to use the Intro to Algebra, intro to C&P and intro to geometry books as well as statistics topics from MEP.

 

The intro to algebra as well as the intermediate algebra books topics are mainly from the Pure Maths portion of integrated maths.

thanks!

I use Understanding Geometry from CTC right now, but was still in search for statistics.

MEP stands for that download curriculum from the UK, right?

[Arcadia]

I use Understanding Geometry from CTC right now, but was still in search for statistics.

MEP stands for that download curriculum from the UK, right?

Unit 20 from the GCSE page for review

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mepres/allgcse/allgcse.htm

 

Statistics portion of the GCSE A levels page.

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mepres/alevel/alevel.htm

[Loesje22000]

Thanks!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I can't add to this thread as we are not in Intro A yet.

But just want to share you are not alone.

I am pondering what you said and wondered if you used the video's.

They are very important to dd.

 

Dd still thinks Chapter 2 in Pre-A was a fun one, the most interesting one so far.

I am not sure where we will switch, but no doubt we will switch to a more regular text.

We don't do the challenging problems, and I have to supplement AoPs with topics from our Belgian integrated math sequence.

 

My plan was to switch after Intro A, but now I doubt I should switch earlier ;)

We used the videos until the last chapter or two before quitting. Many of the videos in Intro to Algebra are the same as the Pre-A ones because there is so much overlap with the topics. Until the last couple chapters we were also doing all the problems, including all the challenge problems. She was also mastering all the Alcumus topics. She was doing the program 100% (except for the classes).

[Loesje22000]

The same video's is not a great start.

So far I let Richard/the video doing the teaching, and after that I am a broken record:

Richard said:......

Richard taught you:.....

 

We will see, first passing the exam next schoolyear...

Thanks for your post!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I keep thinking about using AoPS with young students...

 

I think one reason AoPS works well for young ones is that you have time to then do another program! ;)  In fact, it seems that many/most people do one of the following: supplement, pull out books to see the concept a different way, go through chapters several times, spend years on books (no problem if you start young), allow parental assistance, take the classes twice (either with AoPS or a different program)...

 

It does seem that those using the program with younger children do this to a much greater degree. In some ways, I think my dd would have been much better off starting the sequence earlier. We could then have run another program alongside or during the summer, like others are doing. Or she could grapple with the problems to her heart's content. When you're doing the books on grade level, you don't have that luxury. So, I think in some ways she started too late.

 

It seems the vast majority of those using it with young students are either supplementing as they go along or when finished with a book do a complete run through with another program. Obviously, maybe there are many others that use the program with nothing else, but I've poured over many years of old threads about AoPS, and it really does not appear to be a stand alone program.  Memories may play tricks on us, but old threads never lie... ;)

 

I'm surprised using a different spine with the original AoPS books as supplements isn't more popular. It's a shame so many people buy the books to use as the main program and then end up dropping out of AoPS entirely.  I think it would be much better if people were aware of the option to pick the best fitting spine and then add in all the problem solving goodness of AoPS by using their original books as a sustainable supplement.

[Arcadia]

I'm surprised using a different spine with the original AoPS books as supplements isn't more popular.

I think there are a few factors to it.

 

- there seems to be an in thing factor when choosing spines rather than getting whatever is the best fit for parent/child. It could be because many posters aren't comfortable in teaching math.

 

- after paying for a spine, the two AoPS problem solving volumes aren't cheap especially adding in the cost of the solutions manuals. It is cheaper to use Alcumus or download AMC8 past year questions to supplement.

 

- there is also the time factor. Besides maths, science starts to take up more time too. People might be at summer camps/grandma's house/vacations during Summer and not have time left to supplement.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I think there are a few factors to it.

 

- there seems to be an in thing factor when choosing spines rather than getting whatever is the best fit for parent/child. It could be because many posters aren't comfortable in teaching math.

 

- after paying for a spine, the two AoPS problem solving volumes aren't cheap especially adding in the cost of the solutions manuals. It is cheaper to use Alcumus or download AMC8 past year questions to supplement.

 

- there is also the time factor. Besides maths, science starts to take up more time too. People might be at summer camps/grandma's house/vacations during Summer and not have time left to supplement.

 

- I agree with your first point. It does appear to be the in thing.

 

-True, it's not cheap to buy the original problem solving books as supplements. Neither is ditching the AoPS program and buying a completely different one. If people were aware how often this happens, I think they would perhaps make a different decision up front.

 

-Yes, science takes up lots and lots of time here, as do summer camps. I'm not sure how adding in a few extra challenge problems here and there would be too much. At that point, I guess it's a values call. I actually see those reasons as more of a reason NOT to use AoPS as a spine on grade level and to do what I suggested instead.

[crazyforlatin]

I'm an unwavering Pre-A fan (y'all can complain about its wordiness but I'm a groupie) but an unsure one for algebra. I had to take out my 1990 Foerster's algebra to give DD more systematic of equations word problems. Maybe because I see algebra as the foundation, I'm not confident that it has enough word problems for my particular student. She's young, not particularly gifted in math although seems capable enough for AOPS and does seem to need more practice than what AOPS can offer.

 

I'm struggling with what exactly to use at this point - Foerster seems solid but is not going to challenge her to the extent that I would prefer (she will coast through but is that really so bad with a program as solid as Foerster?); AOPS will challenge her but there isn't enough practice to ease my worry. I combined math programs for elementary and didn't want to continue doing this for algebra.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'm an unwavering Pre-A fan (y'all can complain about its wordiness but I'm a groupie) but an unsure one for algebra. I had to take out my 1990 Foerster's algebra to give DD more systematic of equations word problems. Maybe because I see algebra as the foundation, I'm not confident that it has enough word problems for my particular student. She's young, not particularly gifted in math although seems capable enough for AOPS and does seem to need more practice than what AOPS can offer.

 

I'm struggling with what exactly to use at this point - Foerster seems solid but is not going to challenge her to the extent that I would prefer (she will coast through but is that really so bad with a program as solid as Foerster?); AOPS will challenge her but there isn't enough practice to ease my worry. I combined math programs for elementary and didn't want to continue doing this for algebra.

These are my thoughts exactly!

[Arcadia]

Neither is ditching the AoPS program and buying a completely different one.

....

I'm not sure how adding in a few extra challenge problems here and there would be too much. At that point, I guess it's a values call.

I think most people resell if they ditch AoPS. I actually use the library copy and then order before I have to return that copy.

 

I was thinking as in using the problem solving volumes over summer. Doing a few problems every evening won't finish a volume during summer break.

My kids come back from summer camp ready to eat dinner and sleep which I don't mind. I'm also looking at the wide range of summer residential camps that my older can go to. It is a values call depending on each child's priority.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I think most people resell if they ditch AoPS. I actually use the library copy and then order before I have to return that copy.

 

I was thinking as in using the problem solving volumes over summer. Doing a few problems every evening won't finish a volume during summer break.

My kids come back from summer camp ready to eat dinner and sleep which I don't mind. I'm also looking at the wide range of summer residential camps that my older can go to. It is a values call depending on each child's priority.

 

I think maybe we're talking past each other. I'm not sure what you're saying. The problem solving books could be spread out over years. Maybe I'm not understanding....

[crazyforlatin]

These are my thoughts exactly!

 

Right now my dd is doing lots of math in chemistry, so coasting with Foerster for a bit is looking really good. If there comes a time when she's not doing lots of thinking math in science for a stretch, we might add in a little AoPS for challenge. Right now Foerster is what my dd needs. I'm not convinced AoPS alone offers both a solid foundation and challenge. If I had to choose, I'd choose the solid foundation any day.

I actually went about showing my Foerster book to some PHD scientists (yeah, I can be like that sometimes), and it's what a good portion used. Get this insane homeschool lady outta here.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I actually went about showing my Foerster book to some PHD scientists (yeah, I can be like that sometimes), and it's what a good portion used. Get this insane homeschool lady outta here.

 

:smilielol5:

[Arcadia]

I actually went about showing my Foerster book to some PHD scientists (yeah, I can be like that sometimes), and it's what a good portion used. Get this insane homeschool lady outta here.

Didn't 8filmyheart and other long time homeschoolers use Foresters :)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Didn't 8filmyheart and other long time homeschoolers use Foresters :)

Yes!

[Luckymama]

Like all of us, 8 chooses the curriculum that best fits her student.

 

The beauty of homeschooling :D

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Like all of us, 8 chooses the curriculum that best fits her student.

 

The beauty of homeschooling :D

 

Exactly!  (Well, almost...I think sometimes some of us aren't actually choosing what best fits. We're being swayed more than we should allow ourselves to be. ;) )

 

But yes, 8's had students use Foerster and at least one use AoPS. Whatever fits!

[Roadrunner]

O.K. Number of thoughts. What do you mean Aops isn't enough? I only mentioned adding SM over summer to prevent summer rustiness if we decide not to go ahead with Algebra over the summer (we all need a break). I don't plan on repeating Algebra or any other course with other programs, and I thought Aops was enough as written. Am I wrong? Is the intended audience a PS kid who already covered the material somewhere else? I am not a mathematician, so it's had for me to judge those things. Our plan was to keep going with aops (DS declared his plan to cover everything they have :) that's why I asked if the difficulty level was much higher. We plan to use SM worksheets as summer brain "maintenance."

[Woodland Mist Academy]

It seems most people use other resources somewhere along the way. Is it enough? Depends on the child. I would imagine the answer is "no" more often than it is "yes". It might be fine for your child, though. When I did a lengthy search and spent lots of time reading AoPS posts, the recurrent theme seemed to be that usually there was more involved than just the books.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I think it is important to make sure your child understands the concepts. It seems what sometimes happens is that children are flying through the books, but really don't have a deep understanding. If you question your ability to judge this, I would seriously give the issue some thought.

[Arcadia]

What do you mean Aops isn't enough?

It depends on your aim and your child's aim. For example, one of my older boy's aim is to win me at maths in terms of difficulty and speed. While the difficulty is generally there in the AoPs texts, the "drill" isn't enough for him to "win" me in speed of solving.

 

My hubby made the observation that AoPS explains why more often while Krezig throws him into the deep end.

 

Another thing is the AoPS texts aren't meant for test prep. People like my boys still need to do test prep for a few days before any exams that may count just to get used to format and doing a timed test.

 

ETA:

My older has browse through the AoPS calculus book and is ok with it. I have the Stewart's multivariate calculus books though as backup. I'm comfortable with any text actually.

 

ETA:

The speed is also for geometry. I just see it faster than my boys.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

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[Luckymama]

Well, dd has never used any other resources since she started AoPS in sixth grade (that year she did the then-brand-new pre-algebra and the first four chapters of algebra).

 

She's in ninth grade now, using pre-calculus (her seventh AoPS book).

 

Dd is a strong math student, though she is not as singularly-focused as she had been even just a year ago.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

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[Woodland Mist Academy]

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[Woodland Mist Academy]

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[crazyforlatin]

It is definitely enough for certain kids, but it happens to be that DD who is not gifted in math needs extra practice. Just because she can do the problems in algebra doesn't mean that she doesn't need the review a few weeks later. She's 9 years old and can be unfocused when it comes to math. I could wait until a better age when she is more mature, but when we finished Pre-A I went with Algebra versus Number Theory.

 

What has happened with us is that after we finished systems of equations a few weeks ago, I felt that we needed to review those concepts this week, but I had already used up that chapter's problems. We may be in a different situation as I plan to send DD to HS, so I know she needs to take entrance exams. That's actually frightful to me as it all depends on what she is learning now and remembering for another 4 years.

 

Part of the problem I see with DD is that she can be very slow when working with AOPS, and I need her to work faster and the only way to do this is to use something else. Part of what I want for her is to do problems very quickly and naturally, but that's almost impossible with AOPS. I know that's controversial here, but there it is. I know when you've done the problems in AOPS, you are supposed to remember the concepts for the rest of your life. It's not always true for DD - maybe it's age, maybe it's lack of math talent. I can't tell her to finish one section of AOPS in one hour, but I sure can with something else. One time in AOPS, it took her all day to come up with the answer to just one question. So that's one problem of math for the entire day. Is it just us?

 

Theoretically AOPS does not need supplementing. When we had the pre-A online class, almost all the kids were in PS and in middle school. Also, given our kids' age, we have some time to fold in problems from another book.

 

And there is a range of kids using AOPS, so all those opinions get mixed in whether to supplement or not.

[1053]

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[Arcadia]

Otherwise how are children getting through the books and needing to repeat them or use different books afterward?

I am wondering if it is like science. Sometime you have to slow down to absorb. Most kids would also have to take good notes.

 

Also the prealgebra and the intro to algebra books take longer than an academic year for most kids. Maybe parents paced the kids too fast thinking that it's a book a year

 

Another thing is people ask about when to change curriculum. The board might have more mothers strong in languages than in math. When do you (general) call it quits on AoPS and when should you let your child "suffer" on?

 

My kids are accelerated so I can relax and suit their pace. Also I have been grilled in my engineering calculus classes. After that "torture", I am comfortable mentoring my kids even if I rather outsource.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

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[Woodland Mist Academy]

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[Woodland Mist Academy]

The comment about lack of math talent saddens me. Something seems off with the world...