elmerRex Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 We are using Saxon 54 and have come to a lesson that my son just can not understand right now. We have hit a big wall with the rate concept taught in Lesson 57. May we skip Lesson 57 and all the review problems from that lesson for the time being? My son is capable of the division and multiplication lessons that come after the rate lessons, but the rate concept is still very confusing for him, we've tried a few times in both his languages, but he just doesn't understand the concept yet. We may also have to skip lesson 60 (which is on rates also) and its review problems in order to keep moving without excess frustration or anxiety. It has been 3 days on Lesson 57 and we are still struggling on these problems. We work through example type problems and I give a lot of support and demonstrate the thinking you use to solve the problems, my son can solve them with lots and lots and lots of support but not independently at all. Because he is struggling with it, we have been capping his Saxon math time to 15-20 minutes--just enough time for us to review the concept and then work on a couple of problems together. My son does not understand the concept yet, but he wants to do the next lesson in Saxon math and is impatient and getting frustrated by rates. We are using the 3rd edition of the Saxon Math 54 text so the lesson number is on each and every problem, it would be easy to simply skip over all problems from the trouble lessons. In this case, can we skip this particular lesson and the problems from that lesson? I don't know how Lesson 60 will go, since it also is on rates, but we'd attempt it and if it is beyond him, then we'd probably skip it (and all review problems from L60 in following chapters) until my son is able to understand rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithful_Steward Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 No. Just work through each problem together, every time it comes up, until he understands. This is the application of all the multiplication you have been working on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmerRex Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Darn, not what I wanted to hear, lol. Thank you, though. Can you recommend some helpful way to explain or demonstrate rates? My son just doesn't seem to understand it. He can do other applications of multiplication but he doesn't understand combining of 2 units and looking at as one. He can do word problems about time, and he can do word problems about distance, but he is not having success with combining them. How do you explain this to a student who thinks its tricky? No. Just work through each problem together, every time it comes up, until he understands. This is the application of all the multiplication you have been working on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 We are using Saxon 54 and have come to a lesson that my son just can not understand right now. We have hit a big wall with the rate concept taught in Lesson 57. May we skip Lesson 57 and all the review problems from that lesson for the time being? My son is capable of the division and multiplication lessons that come after the rate lessons, but the rate concept is still very confusing for him, we've tried a few times in both his languages, but he just doesn't understand the concept yet. We may also have to skip lesson 60 (which is on rates also) and its review problems in order to keep moving without excess frustration or anxiety. It has been 3 days on Lesson 57 and we are still struggling on these problems. We work through example type problems and I give a lot of support and demonstrate the thinking you use to solve the problems, my son can solve them with lots and lots and lots of support but not independently at all. Because he is struggling with it, we have been capping his Saxon math time to 15-20 minutes--just enough time for us to review the concept and then work on a couple of problems together. My son does not understand the concept yet, but he wants to do the next lesson in Saxon math and is impatient and getting frustrated by rates. We are using the 3rd edition of the Saxon Math 54 text so the lesson number is on each and every problem, it would be easy to simply skip over all problems from the trouble lessons. In this case, can we skip this particular lesson and the problems from that lesson? I don't know how Lesson 60 will go, since it also is on rates, but we'd attempt it and if it is beyond him, then we'd probably skip it (and all review problems from L60 in following chapters) until my son is able to understand rates. No. Don't skip the lesson. Sorry. Just don't skip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinRTX Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 It's been a long time since I did this so hopefully what I am about to type will help. Tell him that a boy takes 1 minute to eat 5 cookies. How long will it take to ear 25 cookies? How many cookies can he eat in 3 minutes. These are all simple problems he could easily answer. All these problems are is rate. He eats at a rate of 5 cookies/minute. Then tell him that another boy took 3 minutes to eat 9 cookies. How many cookies could he eat in 1 minute. That answer is the rate the boy ate. So the boy eats at a rate of 3 cookies/minute. If he understands the above, go to the problems in the book. Ask him what part of the problem is the time and what part is the cookies? (For instance if a car takes 2 hours to go 6 miles, the time is 2 hours and the "cookie" is the distance (6 miles)) Now what is the rate: the number of cookies each minute (or miles each hour). Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 IMO this would be an example of a situation in which the program's organizational structure isn't as flexible as you'd like it to be to suit your young student's rather unique needs. In other words, not a great fit for a young accelerated student. This is an aspect I was trying to get at in that earlier long thread. However, FWIW, with your own excellent mathematical foundation, effort and keen attention to the details, I have faith that you could pull it off :) (skipping the topic and related problems, that is) though at some point, the topic is likely to turn up more and more as foundational to topics that lie ahead, and you might find that it's not worth the logistical effort (just guessing, as I don't know the program well enough to say for certain). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 sorry, but I would not skip either. The entire application of the other stuff is involved in rates. Just slow down. This is a very good lesson for your son to learn, anyway. We don't move forward until we understand! Take your time with it, and help him through as much as he needs. Then, hopefully the next spiral around, or the one after that, it will click. Also, you can try finding some Khan academy or other youtube videos. Sometimes, seeing things presented differently helps a ton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nature girl Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Does he at least understand the concept of rate? Could you show him a few very simple problems with a toy car? Like: "This car is able to go ten inches in ten seconds" (Demonstrate with the car, a stopwatch and ruler.) "How far will the car be able to go in twenty seconds? In one second?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I would do some rate experiments so he can have the experience of discovering the rate of something. How fast can he roll a plastic Easter egg along the floor with his nose. What would we need to know? Distance - tape off a start and finish line and make sure you know how far apart they are. Time - Use a timer app to see how long it takes him. Now you can find the rate in feet per minute. How far could he get in an hour? How long would it take him to go a mile? How fast can he crab walk? See if he can lead you through the process of finding out. How long would it take for him to crab walk around the Earth? Keep coming up with things to measure until he really understands the concept of a rate. Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Furthermore, he doesn't have to master rates at this point. It will be taught again multiple times, in this text and in future texts. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I would not skip lessons with Saxon, *especially* if the child doesn't understand the concept. Keep plugging away until he gets it. Bring in additional and alternative materials if necessary, but don't skip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbaeimers Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Thinking back to my own experience with school, I went to a public school. Early on, I missed a few concepts. Those concepts build on other concepts and built on other concepts. Before too many years passed I was truly in a mess with math. I ended up just taking the bare minimum amount of math to graduate and sighed a sigh of relief thinking I was finally done. Not. Next came a college level math class. I was sinking fast. Then DH, bless him (boyfriend at the time) patiently took me back. Addressed the base issues and I learned that I really enjoyed math and was not bad at it. I ended up finishing the college math class with an A. All of that to say, if you skip concepts hoping they will just go away, they probably won't. I do recommend taking a day off of school and doing fun things. Going to the park, playing board games, and such to distress and build your relationship (that it is fun too). Then go back to it fresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithful_Steward Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Darn, not what I wanted to hear, lol. Thank you, though. Can you recommend some helpful way to explain or demonstrate rates? My son just doesn't seem to understand it. He can do other applications of multiplication but he doesn't understand combining of 2 units and looking at as one. He can do word problems about time, and he can do word problems about distance, but he is not having success with combining them. How do you explain this to a student who thinks its tricky? Sorry, I have nothing earth-shattering to offer. I draw pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammarGirl Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Because Saxon is spiral, I would say, go on to the next lesson but as soon as rate comes up again, reteach the concept. This is the beauty of a spiral program: mastery is not necessary or expected the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trulycrabby Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 It is most important not to skip the lessons when they are struggling with a concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I wouldn't skip either. And I agree with those who've pointed out that that's one of the benefits of Saxon; just because he doesn't get it this time around just means you'll do some re-teaching when it comes back. However, you might also consider a break for a few days/week and play at Khan...Maybe with rates. ;) Buck coasted through math until Algebra last year. I mean, he'd never had anything challenging. Around lesson 30 in Algebra, he's suddenly doing things he can't figure in his head :001_rolleyes: or understand what they want immediately. It really threw him for a loop. I mean REALLY. He was absolutely convinced he was bad at math. So he played at Khan for about three weeks. Came back to Saxon with an understanding that math won't always be easy anymore and was in a better frame of mind for learning new things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in SA Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Not with Saxon or any other program... The rate concept is too important. Any favorite sciences or video games? You will find all sorts of relevant examples there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SierraNevada Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 My DS struggled on rates too, but he could do the story problems, but it was in his own way. He didn't quite get using a conversion factor. Any time he saw the word conversion factor he panicked. This was a kid who with no teaching figured out how to convert all measurement on his own. But when you wrote out that you needed to do something with a conversion factor, he freaked out. Conversion factors and rates are so critical though. So I just keep holding his hand through the problems and I know that eventually it will click. Sometimes I will take out the big numbers and make the rates really easy/obvious like the 3 cookies per hour type, then have him do the same function to the larger numbers so he can see it is the same thing. Don't skip.. Just work through even if he doesn't get it this time around. It will come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Maybe it would help OP if someone fleshed out the learning philosophy of Saxon a little more. From the outside, it isn't obvious what the difference is between: "skip it now because the program will come back around to it again later" and "you can't skip BUT it's ok if he doesn't get it now because the program will come back around to it again later." I suspect it has something to do with repetition but I don't recall the precise language Saxon would use to describe the learning philosophy. OP, if you can't skip, maybe you could take a break from the program and work with something else for a while before returning to your current location in the program. As your student is only 6, you might look for additional ideas on the Accelerated board. There are lots of topics and resources that can stretch a bright six-year-old's mind and deepen his mathematical understanding that don't require being so far ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithful_Steward Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I'm not a Saxon expert, but I can't imagine using Saxon and not insisting on understanding in each lesson. Saxon is different than a spiral program like Abeka. Abeka reteaches and reviews multiple concepts in their scripted classtime. Saxon does not reteach past concepts. Reteaching comes from mom or from the student using the lesson references under each problem to review previous lessons. In this case, lesson 57 teaches the term and concept of a rate. If Joe swims 5 laps a day, how many will he swim in a week? Lesson 60 is solving for a variable using rate problems. The concept of solving for variables was introduced in lesson 41 and the concept of rate was introduced in lesson 57. Saxon assumes that the child understands all previous concepts. It isn't as simple as skipping certain lessons. OP, have you worked out a solution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 OP, can he solve the problems if he thinks of them additively rather than multiplicatively? For example on Ex. 2, where he's earning 3 dollars a week, have you tried leading him through it along the lines of 'ok, so how much would he earn in a week?' and assuming he gets that, saying 'ok, how about two weeks? if he earned 3 dollars the first week, and 3 dollars the second week, how much did he earn together?' If he can solve them this way (obviously with single-digit numbers), I would bet that the multiplication way would start to make sense after a bit. Also, how did he do on Lesson 49? Have you gone back to Lesson 49 and related it to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janainaz Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I never skip anything either. However, I really don't see why you can't continue in your lessons (as long as he is strong in all the other areas) and then work with him EVERY day on rate problems until it clicks. I would cheer him on and encourage him in what he is doing great on, and then find a way to present the rate problems in varying ways until he gets it. I think that going back to rate problems every.single.day might only frustrate him and cause him to feel discouraged. Some concepts take longer than others to sink in. For example, long division takes practice because there are several steps to remember. My son knew his multiplication tables well, but still needed daily practice with long division until he no longer was making errors. He did not master it all in one lesson. And.... as we all know, each lesson in Saxon only presents a few problems on a particular concept per lesson. So, you don't need to "skip" that lesson! Have him do all the other problems, and help him with the rate problem. Just my 2c's :) Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmerRex Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 He got it! Thank you all for your advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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