Literature analysis in grammar stage

[Coco_Clark]

I've written off the idea of doing any Lit. analysis THIS year because honestly I feel like I need more self education before I can do it well and (see my kids ages) I definitely have the time. I've read Deconstructing Penguins, and I've made sad google eyes at the price tag on the Teaching the Classics seminars. I might still go ahead and order Suppose the Wolf Were An Octopus.

 

Mostly right now I'm trying to just wrap my head around this. What does literature analysis/ discussion look like in your home during the grammar years? How do you begin and what form does it take?

 

Right now we read good books. Occasionally we narrate said books. I have even once or twice dipped my toes into the water a bit by asking things like, "what would you do?" And even, "do you think that was the right thing to do?" after I heard Andrew Kern list good dicussion questions. (of course that talk is gone, I should have taken notes.)

 

I'd like to eventually get to a place where we have deep discussions on literature but I'm foggy on what is between point a and b. i doubt it magically happens on its own. I don't want to kill the book or lapse into inane comprehension questions. Neither do I want a child that "liked that book because it had a cat and I have a cat".

 

Any great resources? Thoughts? Am I insane (I have been so before) to be thinking about discussing literature at all with grammar students? Charlotte Mason says not to get between the student and the book but I can't help but want to butt in...just a little.

[Loves Light]

We are just beginning literary analysis at our home. I have completed Teaching the Classics, listened to Andrew Kern's suggestions, and studied (very briefly) what Charlotte Mason would have suggested. While I like the idea of not getting between the reader and the book, I don't want my children to miss the big idea of the books we read (as even I am prone to do.). I have introduced a handful of literary elements and devices. We look for those elements/devices we have talked about and I add another when I feel they are ready for more. There have been no profound discussions yet but they are picking it up.

 

I am interested to see other responses. This has been on my mind as well.

[Lori D.]

Just me, but I wouldn't start thinking about any kind of formal literary analysis until GRADE 6-7 at the earliest, depending on the individual student. :)

 

 

In the elementary grade years, I can see asking occasionally asking questions like, "What do you think will happen next?" "Do you think that was a good choice? Why/why not?" "What would you have done differently than the character?"

 

Or pointing out especially lovely language, or language that creates mood: "Wow, the author used really great descriptive words here; can you picture -- see and hear and smell -- the landscape in your mind"? "Oh, what a wonderful description, can you just see that place in your imagination! What words made that so vivid?" "I like the sound of that sentence (or verse of poetry); let's read that again!"

 

 

JMO: Elementary grades are awfully young for beginning formal analysis. I really wouldn't want to want to run the risk of killing a just-beginning-to-bloom love of reading of a 5yo or 6yo with formal questions and analysis!

 

From some reading I was doing recently (and sorry, I can NOT for the life of me remember the source right now!), I understand that it can actually be detrimental to a young student's thinking processes to introduce formal literary analysis terms like character, setting, plot prior to the Logic stage. Young students quickly become attuned to "looking for the right answer", and often either lose the love of books and imagination that they naturally have, as books now become a checklist of looking for right answers -- AND that can lead to students having a hard time getting beyond that in the middle school/high school years to actually *apply/use* those simple answers -- "that's the protagonist; that's the antagonist; that's the symbolism; check, check, check! my work here is done!" -- to go deep into the *why*, *how*, the themes and meanings, and personal application/value of that those literary elements can point us towards.  :)

 

Some good starting point resources:

- "What is Literary Analysis and When to Teach It" -- Susan Wise Bauer free article/handout

- audio lecture -- Susan Wise Bauer's more detailed info in audio download format

 

A few resources that would not be too much too soon:

- Suppose the Wolf Were an Octopus (by grade level, K and up)
- Story Elements (by grade level, 1st and up)
- Teaching Story Elements with Favorite Books (gr. 1-3)

 

 

BEST of luck in your family's Literature journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Laura Corin]

We did reading comprehension, rather than literary analysis, at that stage.  We were using the Galore Park English books - maybe looking at a couple of samples might help you to have an idea of how to pitch it?  A first chapter sample for Junior English 1 (for age 7-8) is here, Junior English 2 (age 8-9) is here and Junior English 3 (age 9-10) is here.

 

L

[Space station]

Introduction to literary analysis is very doable with young kids using picture books. Get Teaching the Classics, Reading Roadmaps, and/or Ready Readers 1 (green cover) from centerforlit.com. At this level you are not looking for them to write about lit, you are just talking about it with them and introducing them to the concepts. It will be fun (they will love looking for style things like alliteration and onomatopoeia!) If you do this, by the time your kids get to middle school, literary analysis will be no big deal. Teaching the Classics will train you in how to do this if you don't already know how. Ready Readers will hold your hand for you completely on a few stories. Reading Roadmaps will lay out books for you to cover every year of school whether you want to do this daily, every six weeks, only in the summer, whatever works for you. I highly recommend doing this!

Have fun!

[Chrysalis Academy]

I'm with Lori D, listen to SWB's lit analysis lecture, and all you need for the Grammar stage is to have Deconstructing Penguins-style conversations about books.  Plenty of time in 5th-6th grade to start gently introducing and writing very simple analyses, working up gradually toward something more complex and original later.

[wintermom]

Your dc are 5 and 6 years old. Relax and enjoy the quality stories. Lit analysis can be a stretch for high school students, and even most adults.

[Targhee]

Jr Great Books

[Coco_Clark]

Thanks all, and an especially big thank you to Lauri D.

 

"I understand that it can actually be detrimental to a young student's thinking processes to introduce formal literary analysis terms like character, setting, plot prior to the Logic stage. Young students quickly become attuned to "looking for the right answer", and often either lose the love of books and imagination that they naturally have, as books now become a checklist of looking for right answers."

 

This really rings true to me.  I loved Deconstructing Penguins, but it did sometimes seem to fall into this trap a bit. I think I will shelf it until we are in, or at least much much closer to, the logic stage.  Teaching the Classics seemed even more "check the box".  Unfortunately I think that's why it is so appealing to me.  I am a box checker!  Ack!

 

I suppose what I really need to look for are good questions to promote discussion, along the lines of "What would you do?" and "Do you think that was the right thing to do?"  Not for every reading or every book, but just occasionally so they can get comfortable with thinking about what they are reading.  I love the idea of mentioning, in passing, great lines and descriptions.  Honestly, this is all just how my husband and I talk when we are reading the same book!  

I feel like I'm getting a beginning.  I'll be sure to follow up on the links you provided.     

[librarymama]

I've been wondering about this myself. Right now my 7 year old has daily assigned independent reading and we do not discuss beyond how he feels about what he's read, or him asking a question. I've tried to be hands off, and yet I do wonder if I shouldn't consider choosing a couple of books for unit studies this year where we can really dive into them.

[jaderbee]

Re: Self education Have you googled socratic discussion or seminar? I think between reading up on that, familiarizing yourself with some literary terms, and expanding the breadth of your's and your children's exposure to great literature (I'm thinking of the lewelma thread and the Reader's Odyssey here) you'll be golden for literature analysis when they're ready. This is being humbly written by one who is taking these steps in hopes of being prepared when that day comes too. :)

[Hunter]

Literature is an art, not a 3R. Teach literature analysis like you teach art appreciation.

 

If you talk a painting to death, and think there are checklists and essential vocabulary that need to be learned, then go hog wild with the same ideas applied to literature. If you use a more free approach to art, you might want to also use a more free approach to literature.

 

For awhile, I thought that the most advanced literature curricula must be "better". It took me awhile to give myself permission not to teach the endless lists. I know that this approach will not work for everyone, as it's not going to prepare a student for AP courses, and that is a default expectation for some families. I just can't teach things just because everyone else is, though, at the expense of things that *I* think are critical.

[Guest]

While I agree that there's no reason to have formal literature analysis in the grammar years, I know that I have done a lot of self-ed for myself in this area, because it is an area that I am strongly lacking skills in. I did purchase Teaching the Classics, and if there is ANY way for you to swing that, I would highly recommend it. It has been extremely helpful to me.

 

I like Andrew Kern's question: Should ______________ have __________________?  I ask that a lot after our reading. And to follow-up: Why? What could they have done differently? While we don't need to drill general lit analysis questions, we do want the kids to pull out meaning from reading.

 

A free resource that I have read through once so far and found fantastic is the Journeys Through Bookland, Vol. 10 Guide. It is available for free around the web...Gutenberg, Amazon

I believe it was the How to Read Fiction chapter that was a real gem. (I also loved the art appreciation chapter - great!)

 

I recently read Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird, which is actually a writing book, but I learned SO much about analyzing my reading through that book that I have to throw that out there, too. The more you understand, the more you'll be able to pass that on to your kiddos is how I look at it!

 

 

[Lori D.]

Totally agree with Hunter's comparison with art appreciation. :)

 

And librarymama has a great "seg-way" idea of doing the occasional unit study to enjoy digging deeper into a book. :) Check out the Lit Wit studies (ages 8-12), for example. Hands on projects and other explorations of the world of a particular book, with the occasional literary element thrown in and discussed. Or try a Blackbird & Company guide for one book per semester.

 

For right now, since your children are VERY young, I'd encourage YOU do some reading with a book club or discussion group to get familiar with some of the classics AND get comfortable discussing Literature from all kinds of angles -- and that will naturally lead from time to time to carrying over into your family reading times and helping you think of questions and ideas to prompt discussion with your children. Several of the previous posters had great suggestions for resources for self-education. :)

 

We also found that, starting about age 8-10, movies and TV shows can be a nice way to ease into discussing things. Everyone likes to talk about the movie or TV show we just watched ;), and sometimes it is easier to see/hear lighting and music and how they create mood or foreshadowing, or how close-ups guide you into realizing something is important (perhaps even symbolic), or you see how people are framed, which all helps support a theme or "big idea" going on in the movie. You may enjoy doing Movies as Literature when your 5yo and 6yo are in grades 7 & 8, as a bridge from watching / discussing / analyzing films to doing so with books. :)

 

It's a marathon, not a sprint! Remember to take your time and enjoy all the stages of your family's Literature journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[desertflower]

FWIW, this is not my strong area either, so I'm reading Deconstructing Penguins as well.  (I'll also read the other books that were mentioned in this thread).  Anyhow, I have a 5 1/2 year old and at this stage I'm doing five in a row.  So far, it introduces "light" literary elements.  Such as, climax, setting.  I don't question him after everything we read. 

 

We read to them at night from our literature book list; such as, Charlotte's Web, and I do five in a row during the daytime.  It's separate, and I think he knows when he's going to be asked questions because I get my manual out.  :) 

 

As he gets to be about 7 or so, like in the book, we will have meaningful discussions.  This also depends on maturity level. 

 

Every kid is different and I'm going to try to stay tuned on what he likes and can handle.  Our main objective is to have good discussions after books like Charlotte's Web.  We ask if he enjoyed the book and if so, what did he like about it.  If not, what didn't he like about it.  It kind of expands on that.

 

If you need a list of questions, I printed mine out from https://simplycharlottemason.com/ .

 

Hth