Selective state college admission & homeschoolers: AP vs. dual enrollment

[LNC]

My daughter is a rising 10th grader. She really wants to go to Chapel Hill bc they have a minor in communication disorders for pre-speech pathology masters. I concerned about the rigor of her transcripts.

 

She will take AP Psych and APUS Gov with PA Homeschoolers this year. She is really looking forward to it. I have been pouring over undergrad requirements and what AP vs community college credits - and surprisingly community college classes are a more direct credit exemption path usually. For example AP ENG doesn't exempt from freshman comp, but the community college course does. I am choosing classes based on how they exempt for undergrad requirements. Hopefully she can graduate in 3 years and we can afford to pay for her masters. I am also concerned about changes to the AP exams, mostly the lack of test prep materials released by the college board.

 

So I am leaning towards history at dual enrollment community college as well as math and science.

Something like this:

 

11th:

Lukeion Latin 3 with SAT to exempt college foreign language

Pre Calc Algebra and PreCalc Trig -CC DE

US History 1 & 2 - CC DE

AP English Lit

AP Environmental Science

AP Macro Econ with self study AP Micro Econ

 

12th:

Calc 1 & 2 CC DE

Bio 1 with lab 1rst semester PHY 1 with lab 2nd semester CC DE

Eng CC DE - to exempt freshman writing

Phil CC DE

MUS appreciation CC DE

Art History 1 & 2 CC DE

Western Civ 1 & 2 CC DE or AP Euro

 

When you add in the 10th grade APs she will have 6 AP plus many DE. She has many online grades from outside teachers and temendous community service and extra curricular record. On the right path? I will probably delete all the specifics, so please don't quote. My other worry is I have no idea how she will do on the new SAT, so I am hoping her transcript helps.

[SarahW]

I can't speak to specifics, except to say my brother went to UNC-CH as a homeschool grad and had tons of DE credits (40+ at least) and zero AP's. He got significant aid and graduated with a BS in CS in two years.

 

His DE was done at both a local CC and a public U. Local, I mean local to us in Ohio.

 

I know he took the ACT and scored 30+, not sure he took the SAT.  He went to UNC after a 2 or 3 year gap as an independent student. Not sure how that factored into anything.

 

 

[Michelle_NC]

The UNC school system signed an agreement with the community college system in NC that specific classes will transfer with no questions asked.  This is fairly recent ... I want to say January of this year?

[Michelle_NC]

http://www.abtech.edu/content/transfer-advising-center/comprehensive-articulation-agreement

[Pawz4me]

The CAA has been around a long time, I think.

 

FWIW, years ago when DS was in eighth grade and we were entertaining the idea of him applying to an early college high school, we were advised by the community college (where the early high school was located) that UNC looked more favorably on APs than on CC credits for admission purposes.  Note that was for admission purposes, and it was five years ago.  Things may have changed in that regard.  DS ended up attending our local public high school, and UNC accepted four of his seven APs for credit.  Neither of his English APs were accepted, although he claims they would have been had he scored a 5 on the exams (he scored 4 on both).

 

I think six APs plus DE classes and strong extra-curriculars should put her on a very good path.  From what I learned from DS's application experience and from what we heard at orientation in June, I'd encourage her to apply early.

 I am choosing classes based on how they exempt for undergrad requirements. 

 

 

UNC-CH is a great school, and becoming more selective.  Your post makes it sound like you are 100% sure that she can get admitted in a few years, and high school class selection is mostly about being able to knock out gen-ed requirements.  I don't know you or your DD, or her ACT/SAT scores, but I might focus more on making her the strongest possible candidate, eligible for the most aid.  DE classes have their place, and I think it is great to give high schoolers a college-like experience to test their wings, but conventional wisdom is that AP classes are generally much more rigorous.

 

Have she looked at the year-by-year requirements for her desired major?  Often, major requirements are sequential, so that you still need four years to graduate, no matter how many gen-ed requirements you've passed out of.

 

For someone interested in speech pathology, it seems a little odd to punt on physics until 2nd semester senior year, where it won't show up for admissions purposes.  Same for bio senior year.

 

I would also strongly considering finishing the Latin sequence with a fourth year of Latin.  College adcoms consistently say that they want their applicants to have taken the most rigorous courses offered, and a student that stuck with four years of a foreign language is going to look better than one that stopped after three.

[LNC]

To answer some questions. I am not assuming she would get in, that is what my post is about. :)

 

I am worried that AP would look more prestigious as an applicant. However with so many of the tests changing (and the lack of prep materials available to teacher )makes them less appealing to us. It is hard to resist that the cc classes transfer so easily.

 

For SAT she had low 500s on 7th, high 50s low 60s on 9th grade PSAT. Who knows how she will do with new SAT format?

 

She has high school bio, chem and physics credits. The senior cc classes would be for college credit and meet general ed requirements.

 

Thanks for everyone's opinion so far. I am worried she won't get in. It seems to me like 6 AP classes is pretty good but keep the opinions coming.

[RootAnn]

And you have to find a ps that will not sabotage your child's test paper. 

 

Not to derail this, but could you elaborate on this? I've heard of PS's changing the code (HS'd to their PS code so they could claim the score as theirs) -- but what do you mean by "sabotage"? (Not sure our local PS would allow a HSer to sit for an AP test, but want to know what to look for if they did.)

[TechWife]

The CAA has been around a long time, I think.

 

The CAA has been around, but it has never been this comprehensive in it's scope. It's my understanding that they added hundreds of classes this year. They almost have it to the point where an entire AA or AS degree would transfer, but not quite. 

 

Everyone is very excited about it - it's nice for the CCs because they have more credibility. It is nice for the students as many are now starting at the CC to save money and they can now be assured that they aren't wasting their time. 

[TechWife]

When you add in the 10th grade APs she will have 6 AP plus many DE. She has many online grades from outside teachers and temendous community service and extra curricular record. On the right path? I will probably delete all the specifics, so please don't quote. My other worry is I have no idea how she will do on the new SAT, so I am hoping her transcript helps.

 

Yes, it looks like she is on the right track for UNC-CH. I know homeschool students that have recently graduated from UNC-CH or are currently attending there. 

 

As far as the SAT goes, why don't you have her take it this year? That way you can tell if the score discrepancy is due to a new test. Also have her take the ACT.

[Michelle_NC]

Just saw this article about a change in how AP grades will be calculated. I'm curious if homeschoolers with feel compelled to follow suit or stay with the current method of calculation?

 

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/08/4057256/nc-reducing-credit-for-taking.html

[nancy in nj]

My dd is a entering her sophomore year at UNC-CH.  I think you are definitely headed on the right track for admission provided her SAT scores are high (1900+) range.  Oh, and I am 100% sure that UNC-CH does do the holistic evaluation of applications that they claim to do--so the essay means a lot.   I also agree that they like AP's.  The only other thing that I would recommend doing if you want a super-strong application (i.e., have a shot a scholarship day invitation, honors college invite etc.) is to get some outside test scores in the math and sciences such as the SAT 2's in math or science given her intended major.  My daughter knows of 3 other homeschoolers who  UNC rolled out the red carpet for in the last 2 years and the common denominators seem to be high SAT's, 5+ AP's with high scores (4's, or preferably 5's) and their AP's/SAT II test scores were well-balanced between reading/writing intensive and math/Science intensive.  My dd was probably the least well balanced because all of her AP scores at the point of application were reading/writing intensive except for economics.  However, she did have a near-perfect SAT 2 math II score and had AP Calc BC with PA Homeschoolers on her senior year transcript.  I would also bet that these 4 all had SAT scores north of 2100.  BTW...all of these 4 homeschoolers had taken a bunch of AP's with PA Homeschoolers and it looks like UNC is well aware of their reputation for excellence.  My daughter does know other homeschoolers who were admitted with a lot of cc classes and few or no AP's, but they didn't get the scholarship day/honors college invites etc.  At least one of these kids also had an SAT north of 2000.  

[Lori D.]

Call the admissions office and ask what they look for in applicants. Ask how they view APs vs. dual enrollment. Call the department that DD is interested in and ask how they view APs (even if they don't grant credit, sometimes APs open the door to honor's programs or more advanced courses in the freshman year). Ask which classes they accept for DE for their program, and what kinds of classes would be good prep for their program.

 

It may be that extracurricular activities, community service, and interesting long-term projects by the student would be what will make your DD stand out are even more important than either AP vs. transferable dual enrollment. So getting out into the community and doing projects in her field of interest may be far more beneficial towards admission to the college of her choice, rather than an abundance of APs or DE...

 

 

She really wants to go to Chapel Hill bc they have a minor in communication disorders for pre-speech pathology masters.

 

Can she either take some classes now as DE in those areas, or next summer get involved in a high school summer program run by the college? I'm thinking of trying to find a way of meeting and working with a professor to establish a link with the school and for a letter of recommendation. Even better -- try to figure out a way of interning or volunteering in the department of interest somehow...

 

Or maybe see if involvement in one of the college's clubs while still a high school student (participate as a volunteer/intern) might be a possibility -- not only make contacts, but get to see her field of interest "in action" to see if it really is what she is interested in. For example: several years ago, we invited one of the local university's engineering clubs to come and speak/demo at our annual homeschool careers day. Each year the club designs and builds a small dune-buggy-like vehicle to compete at a national level on an off-road course that has to deal with tight turns, mud, straight-aways, etc. Several of our homeschool students attending that session were extremely interested, and the club invited them to come and participate as high school interns. A win-win for both sides!

 

 

My other worry is I have no idea how she will do on the new SAT, so I am hoping her transcript helps.

 

Well, colleges DO heavily rely on SAT and ACT scores for handing out a lot of the scholarships. Are you having DD take the PSAT this year? Scoring high in her junior year can earn her National Merit Scholar money. (Plus, it's a good practice test for taking the SAT.) Since the SAT is changing (I think Jan. of 2016?), you might want to schedule an SAT prior to that. Also, have DD take the ACT -- some students do better on one vs. the other, and virtually all colleges accept both scores equally well.

 

 

I have been pouring over undergrad requirements and what AP vs community college credits… I am choosing classes based on how they exempt for undergrad requirements. Hopefully she can graduate in 3 years and we can afford to pay for her masters.

 

Since DD is interested in a STEM field, do be aware that those are rigorous programs, and often students *need* the "lighter" gen. ed. requirements to balance out a schedule that could otherwise be crushingly heavy with all science courses. Students often just can not speed up the process when the classes are so rigorous. Also, MANY schools schedule courses such that you just can't speed up the process -- for example, upper division courses require pre-requisites, and required courses may only be offered once a year, or in a very tightly regulated sequence, forcing students into a 4-year (or even 4.5-year or 5-year) track. A number of degree programs at our local university are doing this now.

 

Not saying you shouldn't knock out DE courses that will also count towards a Bachelor's, but just go into it understanding that it may not shorten the length of time it takes to get the Bachelor's. What it might allow for is the ability to double major, or have more time for interning in her field of interest while earning the Bachelor's -- which would help for being accepted into the Master's program, and can help establish relationships with professors, which could open doors for grants and paid internships for working on a Master's degree… Or, it might allow for a lighter load each semester, ensuring the ability to earn a very high GPA and maintain scholarship money, which means more of your family money can go towards the Master's degree.

 

Since finances are a concern, while that would be helpful if you could shave off 1-2 semesters of time in earning the Bachelor's, I would also work towards searching for scholarship money NOW and by taking a good-quality SAT prep course (or work with a tutor skilled in SAT prep), as much as possible, to reduce the cost of the Bachelor's degree, which would leave you a bit more $$ to help with the Master's degree.

 

 

Just a few out-of-the-box ideas.  ;) BEST of luck in deciding how best to prepare for college in those last years of high school! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[LNC]

My dd is a entering her sophomore year at UNC-CH. I think you are definitely headed on the right track for admission provided her SAT scores are high (1900+) range. Oh, and I am 100% sure that UNC-CH does do the holistic evaluation of applications that they claim to do--so the essay means a lot. I also agree that they like AP's. The only other thing that I would recommend doing if you want a super-strong application (i.e., have a shot a scholarship day invitation, honors college invite etc.) is to get some outside test scores in the math and sciences such as the SAT 2's in math or science given her intended major. My daughter knows of 3 other homeschoolers who UNC rolled out the red carpet for in the last 2 years and the common denominators seem to be high SAT's, 5+ AP's with high scores (4's, or preferably 5's) and their AP's/SAT II test scores were well-balanced between reading/writing intensive and math/Science intensive. My dd was probably the least well balanced because all of her AP scores at the point of application were reading/writing intensive except for economics. However, she did have a near-perfect SAT 2 math II score and had AP Calc BC with PA Homeschoolers on her senior year transcript. I would also bet that these 4 all had SAT scores north of 2100. BTW...all of these 4 homeschoolers had taken a bunch of AP's with PA Homeschoolers and it looks like UNC is well aware of their reputation for excellence. My daughter does know other homeschoolers who were admitted with a lot of cc classes and few or no AP's, but they didn't get the scholarship day/honors college invites etc. At least one of these kids also had an SAT north of 2000.

I am hoping being "in state" helps if she doesn't have quite the test scores your daughter did. She does plan on several SAT2 tests. Her 2nd choice is App State which has every undergrad major she is interested in (UNC CH doesn't, just has the communication disorders minor). App has communication disorders, special education and music therapy majors. She loves the mountains, hiking, and Boone area. So we wouldn't be disappointed at all if she goes there. Just want to cover all the bases... Thanks for the help everyone

[Lori D.]

I am hoping being "in state" helps if she doesn't have quite the test scores your daughter did. She does plan on several SAT2 tests. Her 2nd choice is App State which has every undergrad major she is interested in (UNC CH doesn't, just has the communication disorders minor). App has communication disorders, special education and music therapy majors. She loves the mountains, hiking, and Boone area. So we wouldn't be disappointed at all if she goes there. Just want to cover all the bases... Thanks for the help everyone

 

Again, it really depends on the school. Some aggressively seek out-of-state students, leaving fewer spots for in-state students.

 

Being an interesting student -- one who has shown long-term interest in a specific extracurricular, community service area, or developed something unique as an individual -- and having activities and academics that match well with the school's philosophy will carry a student really far into being admitted.

 

From things you've mentioned about your DD and her interests, it sure sounds like she would be a student of interest to the school! :) But, it's a good idea that you've got a "safety" school, and you might want to use this next year to scout around to find a second "safety". Look around for schools that would make DD a "big fish in a small pond" -- schools where her test scores place her in the top 10% -- or even better, top 5% -- of scores for incoming freshmen, which ensure big scholarships. You may find a school that can offer a minor that would be an excellent compliment to DD's future career desires, and would make her very desirable to the school of choice for after the Bachelor's. :)

 

Good luck! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Pawz4me]

I am hoping being "in state" helps if she doesn't have quite the test scores your daughter did.

 

 

Again, it really depends on the school. Some aggressively seek out-of-state students, leaving fewer spots for in-state students.

 

It's much easier to get admitted to North Carolina public universities if you're in state.  The university system is required to accept 82 percent of their students from in state.

 

For this year's incoming class at UNC-CH, the SAT middle 50 percent range was from 1810 to 2120.  DS (in state) had a 2120 SAT score and was admitted during early admission.  My niece, OTOH, had a lower SAT score (somewhere in the 1800-1900 range IIRC) and was admitted during regular decision last year.  She's also in state, and both she and DS attended the same public high school.  Of course I don't know for sure, but I suspect it was the strength of her extra-curricular activities that nailed the admission for her.

 

App is a very good school, too.  And Boone is such a nice town.  It's certainly a good safety IMO.  I tried to get DS to apply there, but he said there was no way he could handle the winter weather.  He thinks 90+ is good, and anything below 70 is cold.

[Lori D.]

It's much easier to get admitted to North Carolina public universities if you're in state.  The university system is required to accept 82 percent of their students from in state.

 

Yea! That makes for a much higher level of confidence in planning on a specific school! :)

[Grantmom]

Another thought on the AP--remember that an entire year of study comes down to a ONE HOUR test. 

 

That's a really good point.  And, to be honest, getting an A in a college level class probably show more about their ability to do college level work over time (manage your time, function as a college student, etc) than a score on a one hour test shows. 

[AFwife Claire]

That's a really good point.  And, to be honest, getting an A in a college level class probably show more about their ability to do college level work over time (manage your time, function as a college student, etc) than a score on a one hour test shows. 

 

Well, technically an AP is a 3 hour test, not 1 hour, like the SAT 2!  Although the point still stands--you're basing an entire year's grade on one exam.

 

[TechWife]

Just saw this article about a change in how AP grades will be calculated. I'm curious if homeschoolers with feel compelled to follow suit or stay with the current method of calculation?

 

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/08/4057256/nc-reducing-credit-for-taking.html

 

This is how everyone I know already does it. 

[Matryoshka]

This is how everyone I know already does it. 

 

Yes, this is already how it was always done here.  Sounds like NC was really inflating things...

 

[Pawz4me]

This is how everyone I know already does it. 

 

That's not how the public schools here have been doing it.  Nor any of the private schools that I know about.

 

Yes, this is already how it was always done here.  Sounds like NC was really inflating things...

 

 

No, not from what college admissions counselors told us.  According to the ones we talked to, the number of different grading scales they deal with is absolutely mind boggling.  One admissions person spent a few minutes just giving us examples, and it was rather unreal how much things varied.  And there were many districts who were much more "inflated" (that's not really the right word at all here, but I'll go with it) than the one typically used by the public school systems here.  And that's why all the colleges and universities recalculate grades and GPA using their own scale.

[Michelle_NC]

Admissions also takes the high school into consideration, so a 4.0 from a weaker high school isn't on par with a 4.0 from an IB program or a highly rated private school.

[TechWife]

That's not how the public schools here have been doing it.  Nor any of the private schools that I know about.

 

 

Let me clarify - this is how the homeschoolers I know are already doing it. After reading this article, I'm going to consider giving an additional full point for CCP classes.

[TechWife]

Your daughter has many options with this school.

 

1) Take AP/CLEP ir IB exams for credit - UP to 64 credits

2) Go to Community College

    - If she gets an AA degree she can transfer up to 64 credits

    - She won't have to provide SAT scores after 30 credits

 

Stated here from there page:http://admissions.unc.edu/files/2014/04/Transfer_Credit_Guide.pdf

The number of hours that may be transferred from two-year institutions is limited to 64. After 64 hours, course credit is still

awarded, but hours are withheld. (Note: Transferrable courses earned at a four-year institution prior to, or in conjunction with,

attending a two-year institution are included in the 64-hour limit.)

 

I would recommended going up to the College for a visit. Speak to an advisor at both your local Community College and 4 - year college. They give you free information if you ask.

 

Keep in mind that an AA/AS from an NC Community College is a little bit different than just transferring credits. In NC, the AA/AS credits will fulfill the gen ed requirements for the freshman and sophomore years of a state university with just a couple of exceptions. There are agreements in place that cover this.