The PhD question...my ds is talking about pursuing one

[Catherine]

So right now he is a rising college junior, math major. He dropped his plan to double major in math and physics. He hopes to minor in physics, computer science, and German. Anyway, he loves math, and is in the Honors track, does reasonably well academically. I think his GPA is in the 3.5 range.

 

He would like to teach at the college level and is talking about pursing a PhD in math with this goal in mind.

 

Given the conversations we've had here, I have some reservations about this plan. He is not one to do extensive research on a question like this. He honestly told me "I just love this stuff" and he does...he reads math textbooks while we are on vacation! That is his primary motivation-interest and curiosity. He's lacking in clear career goals but thinks he'd like to teach. IMO, he would be a good teacher.

 

Together, I did some very brief internet research with him and it seemed we discovered that there are about 750 tenure track positions in math yearly, and about 1400 new math PhDs. These odds seem better than some I've seen.

 

Please, if you are aware of resources that address the glut of PhDs, or have any thoughts at all, can you send them my way?

 

If you think I should mind my own business, it's fine if you say that too. : ) Since this will almost certainly be partly on my dime, I feel I have a right to put in my 2 cents.

He's a high school Junior!  (not even!) And high school students who have found a subject they love are very far ahead of the game. I wouldn't worry too much about something ten years or more down the road.  I would encourage this passion, but also help him investigate where it could lead.  Keep in mind that if he is a strong candidate, his University should pay for his MS and PhD via a Teaching Assistance-ship or Research Assistance-ship (or both).  

 

College math is a very broad field, with many branches and sub-branches and the branch that he chooses to focus on may determine what kinds of options he may have post BS.  Many branches of math can lead to gainful employment with good paying jobs in desirable fields.  Many other scientific disciplines are heavily dependent on certain branches of math, like Economics, Statistics, Physics, Biology, Sociology, Computer Science, etc.  In college he may find that applying his love of math upon some other field may be very interesting.

 

Oh, I would also strongly encourage him to participate in any of the math competitions that he can.  In addition to all the obvious reasons, finding like-minded peers may be the best source of answers to the kinds of questions he has, and the kinds of questions he didn't know he had.

[Bootsie]

His professors can probably give him some of the best advice about this.  They will be familiar with his work, what it takes to get through a PhD program, and the job market for PhDs in math.  I am not familiar with the math PhD market, but many of those receiving PhD are international students.  One important factor in employment will be how many of those individuals are seeking academic positions in the US

[stripe]

With a PhD in math, many jobs are possible. He really doesn't have to be a professor to be employed. And a bachelor's degree in math is a great degree for all sorts of things, so it doesn't matter if he changes his mind.

[Laura Corin]

There are many maths PhDs employed in the City of London in quantitative positions.  I would suspect that Wall Street would be the same.

 

L

[Catherine]

He's a high school Junior!  (not even!) And high school students who have found a subject they love are very far ahead of the game. I wouldn't worry too much about something ten years or more down the road.  I would encourage this passion, but also help him investigate where it could lead.  Keep in mind that if he is a strong candidate, his University should pay for his MS and PhD via a Teaching Assistance-ship or Research Assistance-ship (or both).  

 

College math is a very broad field, with many branches and sub-branches and the branch that he chooses to focus on may determine what kinds of options he may have post BS.  Many branches of math can lead to gainful employment with good paying jobs in desirable fields.  Many other scientific disciplines are heavily dependent on certain branches of math, like Economics, Statistics, Physics, Biology, Sociology, Computer Science, etc.  In college he may find that applying his love of math upon some other field may be very interesting.

 

Oh, I would also strongly encourage him to participate in any of the math competitions that he can.  In addition to all the obvious reasons, finding like-minded peers may be the best source of answers to the kinds of questions he has, and the kinds of questions he didn't know he had.

Sorry-I should have clarified. He's a COLLEGE junior.

 

He has participated in a college level math competition, last year, loved it, and is doing it again this year.

 

So teaching assistantships are still out there, that partly fund tuition? I had been given to believe that these were a thing of the past. Plus, frankly, I'm not sure his grades are good enough.

[creekland]

Has he talked with his math adviser?  From the bit I know, math is still a good field to head into both for academia and business.  I would think a 3.5 could be good enough, but his adviser ought to know for sure on that.  If he loves it, I'd encourage him to continue exploring the path by talking with his adviser and his current math profs.

[RebeccaMary]

If he really is interested and dedicated, then he should go for it. As other posters have mentioned, with a PhD in math, you become very employable in a wide range of lucrative sectors - not just teaching.  And in the sciences, at least, grad school is free - paid for by your graduate advisor's grants and your own teaching. 3.5 sounds like a very respectable GPA, especially if it's at a good school. 

[regentrude]

As others have already said, employment chances for a math PhD are great. Whether he will get a faculty position is hard to say; competition in academic is really tough - but there are other employment opportunities.

 

So teaching assistantships are still out there, that partly fund tuition? I had been given to believe that these were a thing of the past. Plus, frankly, I'm not sure his grades are good enough.

 

I think in math it is rather typical that grad students are funded through appointments as TAs or RAs.

His grades (and GRE) must be good enough to get admitted to a graduate program. I'm in physics, and we fund everybody who gets in.

How exactly schools do it differs; some waive tuition and pay a stipend towards living expenses, others pay a larger stipend and the student pays tuition as well.

He is not one to do extensive research on a question like this. He honestly told me "I just love this stuff" and he does...he reads math textbooks while we are on vacation! That is his primary motivation-interest and curiosity. He's lacking in clear career goals but thinks he'd like to teach. IMO, he would be a good teacher.

He should talk to his academic advisor in the math department. For a student who has no clear career plans but interest and aptitude, continuing his education in grad school sounds like a good idea to me. It will make him more employable, and as I said before, grad school is usually free since students are supported, so it's not a  huge financial responsibility like med or law school.

 

Once he gets a clearer idea, he may decide to just get his masters instead of a PhD - that,too, will make him more employable and does not take long.

Sorry-I should have clarified. He's a COLLEGE junior.

 

He has participated in a college level math competition, last year, loved it, and is doing it again this year.

 

So teaching assistantships are still out there, that partly fund tuition? I had been given to believe that these were a thing of the past. Plus, frankly, I'm not sure his grades are good enough.

 

 

Forgive my misunderstanding.  At any given university, there are probably more math TAs than any other department:  the math department needs to teach at least one math class to the majority of all students, and that requires a small army of TAs. At all universities that I know of, TAs have their tuition completely paid for, one way or another.  I would be more concerned about his GPA in major than overall GPA, if he isn't getting all A's in his math classes, it is going to be difficult to get into a reputable graduate program.  However, doing well on the Putnam exam would be a huge feather in his cap.

 

I would encourage both you and him to check out the various web forums dedicated to getting into graduate school, including the graduate section of college confidential and thegradcafe, keeping in mind the usual filters you'll need when reading anything on the internet.

[Barbara H]

The Math Association of America has good information on their site. With the need for math teaching assistants he should expect to be funded (tuition free, stipend to live as a poor grad student). http://www.maa.org/a-graduate-school-primer

 

If he's a rising junior, I would suggest just as soon as school is back that he goes and talks to his advisor about what he needs to be doing this year. GPA in his math major is important as is rigor and depth of courses he's taken. Recommendations carry a lot of weight. The GRE is different than it was 30 years ago when many of us strolled in without prep and took it once. It is much more common for students to put some time into prep particularly for the subject test if their field requires it. So, he's going to want to allow some time for that.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Everyone already gave you great advice.

 

I'll reiterate that junior year is a great time to get together with his adviser and ask for help. Advisers can help a lot in translating your specific mathematical interests into a list of potential grad programs which are strong in those particular areas.

 

Think about spending next summer doing some kind of mathematical research. Research is quite different from taking classes, & getting a taste of it for three months will give him the best idea of whether or not he's suited. An added bonus would be getting a recommendation letter from his summer mentor. U of R is great in that regard; it looks like they have some suggestions for staying on campus or doing an REU elsewhere. (I spent one summer at U of R doing a research project with a prof, one in the math dept at CMU that my adviser arranged for me, and one at Xerox doing modeling...all helped refine my goals)

 

A Mathematician's Survival Guide: Graduate School & Early Career Development is a decade old, but looks like a helpful read.

 

Start looking at the GRE to see what kinds of math are needed for the subject test. It's no cake walk; as Barbara said, preparation is key. I got the top score back in the day by studying the practice test put out by the GRE (current version linked at the bottom of this page), noting what areas I needed to work on, and doing exercises from the appropriate texts from my various U of R classes. U of R math was wonderful prep, by the way!

 

Great subject test GRE scores will show he's learned & retained the material and might help in countering less than perfect grades (especially with great LORs).

 

I graduated college when there was a glut of math PhDs and lots of warnings not to pursue one. I went anyway; math was my true love. A few years later when I received my PhD, the worst of the glut had passed & while tenure track jobs weren't plentiful, they were out there, & I had five offers. Now it might be a little more difficult with the increasing dependence on adjunct faculty. He may spend some years as a post doc before getting his first academic appointment. And, as others have already said, there are jobs for mathematicians outside of academia, well paid and fun, too. Applied mathematicians with programming skills are hired in industry, number theorists work for the NSA, others work on Wall Street, to name just a few. I've personally been everything from a tenure track prof to a CTY gifted teacher to a modeler of airplane wings, underground injection wells, and paintbrush bristles...

 

Finally, any good PhD program should provide a living wage via teaching and/or research assistantships. It might be in a basic flat with a roommate or two, but he should be able to support himself. It's different if he goes for a terminal Master's degree; many of those programs have only partial or no support.

 

Good luck to him!

[Catherine]

I'll reiterate that junior year is a great time to get together with his adviser and ask for help. Advisers can help a lot in translating your specific mathematical interests into a list of potential grad programs which are strong in those particular areas.

 

Think about spending next summer doing some kind of mathematical research. Research is quite different from taking classes, & getting a taste of it for three months will give him the best idea of whether or not he's suited. An added bonus would be getting a recommendation letter from his summer mentor. U of R is great in that regard; it looks like they have some suggestions for staying on campus or doing an REU elsewhere. (I spent one summer at U of R doing a research project with a prof, one in the math dept at CMU that my adviser arranged for me, and one at Xerox doing modeling...all helped refine my goals)

 

A Mathematician's Survival Guide: Graduate School & Early Career Development is a decade old, but looks like a helpful read.

 

Start looking at the GRE to see what kinds of math are needed for the subject test. It's no cake walk; as Barbara said, preparation is key. I got the top score back in the day by studying the practice test put out by the GRE (current version linked at the bottom of this page), noting what areas I needed to work on, and doing exercises from the appropriate texts from my various U of R classes. U of R math was wonderful prep, by the way!

 

Great subject test GRE scores will show he's learned & retained the material and might help in countering less than perfect grades (especially with great LORs).

 

I graduated college when there was a glut of math PhDs and lots of warnings not to pursue one. I went anyway; math was my true love. A few years later when I received my PhD, the worst of the glut had passed & while tenure track jobs weren't plentiful, they were out there, & I had five offers. Now it might be a little more difficult with the increasing dependence on adjunct faculty. He may spend some years as a post doc before getting his first academic appointment. And, as others have already said, there are jobs for mathematicians outside of academia, well paid and fun, too. Applied mathematicians with programming skills are hired in industry, number theorists work for the NSA, others work on Wall Street, to name just a few. I've personally been everything from a tenure track prof to a CTY gifted teacher to a modeler of airplane wings, underground injection wells, and paintbrush bristles...

 

Finally, any good PhD program should provide a living wage via teaching and/or research assistantships. It might be in a basic flat with a roommate or two, but he should be able to support himself. It's different if he goes for a terminal Master's degree; many of those programs have only partial or no support.

 

Good luck to him!

Thank you so much Kathy! And thanks to everyone who replied so helpfully. You have *really* eased my mind.

 

First, yes, he has done research this summer, with his advisor, and he loved it. He has discussed graduate school with his advisor, but I don't know any details right now.

 

I will definitely be checking out the book, and I will mention the need to prep for the GRE. Hope I can convince him to actually do this. If he holds true to his past pattern, he will do very well. For my kids, test scores are ALWAYS the strongest part of their applications, grades, the weakest! They are good test-takers. He plans to retake the one class in his major that he did not do well in.

 

His advisor encouraged him to take 2 graduate classes this fall...so I assume he believes he'll be a good candidate and will provide a good letter. Beyond that, I will look at the book, give it to him in the hope it will be studied, and check out the MAA site (I did this already but I need to make sure I saw that particular section).

 

Thank you so much!

[kiana]

FWIW, for those who want to teach, are good at it, and are willing to move anywhere, the market is not terrible. Math is one of the least terrible to find a job. Community colleges and 4-year colleges need mathematics professors, because as others said with respect to TA-ships, everyone has to take math, and in many cases multiple courses.

 

I know a few people who struggled finding a job but they were geographically restricted or didn't perform well on teaching demonstrations.

 

I just got my full-time position last fall. I don't have the precise stats anymore, but I applied to 75+ positions, got first-round interviews at about 15, got a job offer while I still had a few campus visits scheduled elsewhere, so I might have gotten more (but none of the other places I had scheduled visits at were better than the job offer, so I took the bird in the hand).

[Mama Geek]

I assume that math is the same way, so he may want to be aware of the publish or perish life of professors and how important it is to get A hits in publishing and a PhD advisor makes a big difference.  I have family that have struggled with this.

[kiana]

I assume that math is the same way, so he may want to be aware of the publish or perish life of professors and how important it is to get A hits in publishing and a PhD advisor makes a big difference.  I have family that have struggled with this.

 

For math, this is very true at research universities (you're also looking at a frighteningly long career path, as you are unlikely to get a job at a research school without at least one good postdoc), less true at primarily undergraduate institutions without a research focus, and not really relevant at community colleges.

[G5052]

For math, this is very true at research universities (you're also looking at a frighteningly long career path, as you are unlikely to get a job at a research school without at least one good postdoc), less true at primarily undergraduate institutions without a research focus, and not really relevant at community colleges.

 

Yes, as he works his way through graduate school, he will have to decide what sort of faculty position he wants.  I did university research for almost ten years, then government program management, and then entered the adjunct work at local community colleges when my oldest was a baby.  I love teaching, much more so than my jobs prior to that.  It took me awhile to figure that out and certainly having a research and management background made me attractive to the community colleges, so I don't know that I would have done anything differently.  

 

If I ever go full-time, I would want a full teaching job, no research.  Over the summer they offered me a full-time gig at a campus an hour away, but I'm still homeschooling teens at home.  And frankly two hours a day on the road for work isn't something I ever want to do again.  So flexibility is a plus if you have it.

 

Math people do fine from what I've seen.  They need lots and lots of faculty members because everybody has to take math.  Unfortunately my field (IT/CSC) is declining because so much of that work is offshore now.  There are jobs, but not nearly as many as there once was, and not many at all with just an associate's unless you go into networks.

[Guest2]

You've gotten such wonderful responses I almost hate to chime in. It sounds like his love is pure mathmatics and if so, he is on the right path.

If teaching doesn't appeal to him, it looks like quite a few economics jobs especially econometrics that would be a good match.

Thinking outside the box, if he loves physics, has he looked into a phD in physical chemistry? Many of those research and corporate jobs are mostly mathematical modeling.