Handling overlap between WWE and FLL (Language Loop for 2nd Grade)

[TheAttachedMama]

The Well Trained Mind suggests that we use both FLL and WWE to round out a language arts program in the early grammar stage.  However, there is SO much overlap in these two programs!    It feels like a lot of wasted instructional time and jumping around. 

BOTH programs prescribe similar copywork. 

BOTH programs prescribe similar dictation exercises. 

BOTH programs highlight similar grammar concepts through copywork/dictation. 

BOTH programs prescribe similar narration activities. 

It just seems to me like these two programs can be meshed together in a more efficient way. 

 

So my question is, how do YOU handle the overlap in FLL and WWE?  Do you use one as a primary spine and then skip redundant info in the other?  If so, which manual do you tend to cover primarily? 

 

Do you try to do EVERYTHING in both manuals?  If so, why do you feel that is necessary?

 

I've been trying to organize our language arts instruction so that there is less overlap.  My 'engineer brain' craves efficiency!  I want things to LOOK more like a lesson from English Lesson Through Literature.  (I know I could just use ELTL, but I feel like FLL is a more complete program.)  

 

I'm trying to put together a language arts 'loop' for 2nd grade based off of FLL and WWE.  I want something that includes all of the aspects from FLL and WWE.   (Copywork, narration, picture study, poetry memorization, grammar, dictation, letter writing, oral composition, etc.)    Any advice as to what that loop might look like? 

 

 

 

[My3girls]

We do the grammar lessons with FLL. We do the copywork and dictation with WWE, and use it to reinforce the grammar concepts from FLL. We skip the copywork and dictation from FLL.

 

Oh and we do WWE Mon, Wed, and Fri and FLL on Tues and Thurs.

[Kathie in VA]

For levels 1 and 2 I just use the original single book FLL text with out a workbook. This was written before WWE.

[kiwik]

I dropped FLL.

[reign]

We do WWE on Monday and Wednesday. We read the selection, do a narration, and the copy work. I write all the narrations down. We do one WWE style dictation on Saturday or Sunday.

 

We do FLL Tuesday,Thursday, and Friday. I sometimes skip the narrations. Other wise we do lessons as directed.

 

Alternating days means we never have to double up on the same type of lesson.

[Courtney_Ostaff]

We do WWE on MTWRF, and FLL on MWF. So far, (grade 1), I haven't found much overlap. I'm not using a handwriting curriculum, so the copywork is my opportunity to insist that she write nicely. I find that repetition is the key to reinforcement. 

[TheAttachedMama]

We do WWE on MTWRF, and FLL on MWF. So far, (grade 1), I haven't found much overlap. I'm not using a handwriting curriculum, so the copywork is my opportunity to insist that she write nicely. I find that repetition is the key to reinforcement. 

 

Just to clarify....

By overlap, I am not saying that BOTH manuals would have you copy over a sentence and point out adverbs (or whatever) on the exact same day.  

 

BUT, I am just saying that for being 'just' a grammar program, it works on a lot of the 'writing' skills that WWE works on.  And for being 'just' a writing program, WWE touches on a lot of grammar concepts.  For example, both programs have you narrate so the student can work on putting original thoughts into words.  Both programs work on holding thoughts in your head by doing dictations.    Both have you copy over lines of text and poetry and point out grammar issues such as parts of speech, types of sentences, capitalization, punctuation, etc. 

 

They might not BOTH tell you to narrate the same exact fable on the same exact day....I'm just saying there seems to be a lot of inefficiency in instruction with all of this overlap. 

 

I wish I could just say....."OK...we are going to discuss some type of grammar subject every day.   Then we are going to narrate X times per week.  Plus, we are going to do copywork X times per week.  And we are going to do dictation X times per week."  That type of thing.  I'm just not sure how often to do those things for a typical second grader. 

 

You see.....

I'm trying to put together some type of 'loop' or routine for our language arts.  (This would be in addition to spelling, handwriting, and reading.)   I like routine. ;)   Something like this....

 

Day 1:  Poetry/Memory Work, Grammar Discussion, Copywork sentence from read aloud pointing out some type of grammar subject.

Day 2:  Poetry/Memory Work, Grammar Discussion, Dictation of Copywork sentence from Day before

Day 3:  Poetry/Memory Work, Grammar Discussion, Narration, Copywork from Narration

Day 4:  Poetry/Memory Work, Grammar Discussion, Dictation of Copywork sentence from narration

 

The reason I'm having a hard time, is that with FLL, the "grammar discussion" might be something like copy over these lines of poetry about seasons.  Or do a picture narration.  You know? 

[EmilyGF]

With my daughter, I skipped most of the copywork and dictation in FLL because I felt like the copywork and dictation in WWE was so much better. If she had needed more practice, I would have used it.

 

I see the cw/dict in FLL as there for people who aren't using WWE. I scheduled WWE M-Th, FLL T/Th or W/F. I had her do a poem a day to keep them up, but otherwise just used it in an open-and-go fashion. If the lesson was easy, we sometimes did two. 

 

I think you're making it harder than you need to... if you enjoy making it hard, that's OK, but I don't think it has to be complicated. For us, it gets done because it is easy. :-)

[Courtney_Ostaff]

..., both programs have you narrate so the student can work on putting original thoughts into words.  Both programs work on holding thoughts in your head by doing dictations.    Both have you copy over lines of text and poetry and point out grammar issues such as parts of speech, types of sentences, capitalization, punctuation, etc.....The reason I'm having a hard time, is that with FLL, the "grammar discussion" might be something like copy over these lines of poetry about seasons.  Or do a picture narration.  You know? 

 

Ah, I begin to see your point! I think, to me, the dictations, narrations, and copywork are not grammar or writing, but instead an underlying facet of classical education itself. I'm perfectly happy to do all three of those ( 1) dictation, 2) narration, and 3) copywork) ) every single day as part of her critical thinking training. (Not that we've got to much (any?) dictation yet.)  To me, grammar is nouns and adverbs and so on, while writing is the act of composition. YMMV In fact, my child does a narration in nearly every subject every day, and I'm OK with that.  Maybe we just have different ways of looking at this?

[Chelli]

I think you just need to use ELTL.  :tongue_smilie:

 

It sounds like you are trying to recreate it as is. If you feel like it's lacking in grammar then do ELTL and add in FLL the other two days a week since ELTL is only a three day a week program. Problem solved.  ;)

[TheAttachedMama]

I think you just need to use ELTL.  :tongue_smilie:

 

 

Your reply made me laugh.  :) 

Maybe you are right.  I'm having trouble making the leap though because I JUST bought FLL 2 and haven't used it yet.  I feel like it is wasted if I don't use it.    And it is a fine program. 

 

Have you done a complete level of ELTL yet?  If so, what is your opinion of it?

[lots of little ducklings]

Pretty sure SWB addresses this overlap in a video, though I can't recall which one. I suppose for some students it's no issue to just do everything. But while both programs are excellent and have different emphases, DS6 is not a seat-work-fine-motor-control kinda guy. Completing both programs would simply take forever. So to make grammar and writing work I really need to streamline.

 

Havent tried it yet, but FWIW, the plan next year is to eliminate all narration exercises from both WWE and FLL, since we do that already for history/science/and lit. Then I'll use FLL for the first half of the year (85ish lessons) to introduce grammatical concepts, followed by WWE for the remainder of the year (70ish lessons) to review grammar and focus on writing mechanics. To the extent possible I'll use literature we are covering in other subjects for WWE lessons too, but I have the workbook to fall back on if I run out of time to pre-plan my own selections.

 

You could certainly try to merge the two programs and use them simultaneously, but the very thought of that gave me a migraine. :-)

 

HTH!

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

We actually started FLL1 a year before we started WWE1, but hadn't finished FLL1 when we started WWE1. We skipped the copywork in FLL1 from the beginning, because I was using it with a boy who struggles with handwriting and didn't need the extra frustration, and his younger brother who hadn't learned to write yet, but could do everything else. We finished FLL1 and are a 1/3 of the way through WWE1. We will continue with FLL2, skipping the dictation in that book.

 

We do FLL 4x/week, usually only about 10 minutes a day. We do WWE 4x/week, 10-15 minutes, depending on the lesson. (I've blogged about the extra stuff we added to FLL1 to make it more kinetic learner friendly.)

[TheAttachedMama]

Pretty sure SWB addresses this overlap in a video, though I can't recall which one. I suppose for some students it's no issue to just do everything. But while both programs are excellent and have different emphases, DS6 is not a seat-work-fine-motor-control kinda guy. Completing both programs would simply take forever. So to make grammar and writing work I really need to streamline.

 

Havent tried it yet, but FWIW, the plan next year is to eliminate all narration exercises from both WWE and FLL, since we do that already for history/science/and lit. Then I'll use FLL for the first half of the year (85ish lessons) to introduce grammatical concepts, followed by WWE for the remainder of the year (70ish lessons) to review grammar and focus on writing mechanics. To the extent possible I'll use literature we are covering in other subjects for WWE lessons too, but I have the workbook to fall back on if I run out of time to pre-plan my own selections.

 

You could certainly try to merge the two programs and use them simultaneously, but the very thought of that gave me a migraine. :-)

 

HTH!

 

What an ingenious idea!  I am smacking myself on the forehead for not thinking of that myself.   Sometimes it is the simplest solutions that work the best, but for some reason my brain ALWAYS tends to over complicate things.  I've spent the last few weeks trying to mesh together FLL and WWE---- and it really is a nightmare!  I think I am going to try your solution!

 

We have (and use) the WWE book (not the workbooks).  So we could easily just do FLL then fill in the rest of the year with as many WWE assignments as it takes to solidly the skills covered in WWE.   That sounds so much easier to schedule! 

[rimk3]

I think you just need to use ELTL.  :tongue_smilie:

 

It sounds like you are trying to recreate it as is. If you feel like it's lacking in grammar then do ELTL and add in FLL the other two days a week since ELTL is only a three day a week program. Problem solved.  ;)

 

This is exactly what I was thinking!  It has literature, poetry, memory work, grammar, narrations, copy work, dictations (level 3) and the loop is already planned.  There are extra practice pages that can be printed as well.  Plus, it is scheduled for 3 days a week.  You can spread that out or use that time for something else.  We plan to use those days to do WR and BW in the fall.  And, the writing in levels 4 and up use the progym, so if you want to move to WWS, I think the writing in ELTL will be a nice compliment/prep for WWS.  Especially if your dc is not ready for WWS in year 5.  But, I'm a total fangirl.  :001_tt1:

[Black-eyed Suzan]

Pretty sure SWB addresses this overlap in a video, though I can't recall which one. I suppose for some students it's no issue to just do everything. But while both programs are excellent and have different emphases, DS6 is not a seat-work-fine-motor-control kinda guy. Completing both programs would simply take forever. So to make grammar and writing work I really need to streamline.

 

Havent tried it yet, but FWIW, the plan next year is to eliminate all narration exercises from both WWE and FLL, since we do that already for history/science/and lit. Then I'll use FLL for the first half of the year (85ish lessons) to introduce grammatical concepts, followed by WWE for the remainder of the year (70ish lessons) to review grammar and focus on writing mechanics. To the extent possible I'll use literature we are covering in other subjects for WWE lessons too, but I have the workbook to fall back on if I run out of time to pre-plan my own selections.

 

You could certainly try to merge the two programs and use them simultaneously, but the very thought of that gave me a migraine. :-)

 

HTH!

 

Here's the video she mentioned where SWB addresses the overlap:

 

 

I'm considering using both next year for second grade, too! Thanks for the discussion!

[TheAttachedMama]

Thanks so much for digging up that video and posting it.  Very helpful!  SWB is SO very nice!  How can you not like her when you watch that video?  :) 

 

For those of you who own ELTL, can you please describe the workbook to me?  They don't seem to have any samples of it online. 

[Just Another Jen]

Ok someone tell me what is ELTL?

[wendyroo]

Ok someone tell me what is ELTL?

 

English Lessons Through Literature

[rimk3]

Thanks so much for digging up that video and posting it.  Very helpful!  SWB is SO very nice!  How can you not like her when you watch that video?  :)

 

For those of you who own ELTL, can you please describe the workbook to me?  They don't seem to have any samples of it online. 

 

Lulu has a preview of the workbooks.  Here is level 2.  I actually don't have the workbooks for level 1 and 2 because my son uses a comp notebook for all his writing, including ELTL's copywork and narrations.  He just uses my ipad to copy from (I have the ebook teacher manual).  We do the grammar exercises on a whiteboard.  I have copied the exercises for the week and pasted them in a doc and then printed the week's worth.  Mostly, we use a white board.  I do have the workbook for level three because the exercises get more involved and with teaching two levels, I'm not sure I want to write every exercise out.  BUT, workbooks are optional.  This is what is included in level 3 workbook (ebook): copywork including poetry, literature, and bible verses; space for narations and dictations; and the grammar exercises.  The ebook has five different handwriting options to choose from.

 

It looks like you have some great options to implement FFL and WWE in way that will work for you, so don't let me stir you to something else.   :)

 

ETA:  Yes, I love listening to SWB lecture, she seems down-to-earth and very kind.

[lots of little ducklings]

What an ingenious idea! I am smacking myself on the forehead for not thinking of that myself. Sometimes it is the simplest solutions that work the best, but for some reason my brain ALWAYS tends to over complicate things. I've spent the last few weeks trying to mesh together FLL and WWE---- and it really is a nightmare! I think I am going to try your solution!

 

We have (and use) the WWE book (not the workbooks). So we could easily just do FLL then fill in the rest of the year with as many WWE assignments as it takes to solidly the skills covered in WWE. That sounds so much easier to schedule!

Glad to be of help! Before you kick yourself too hard, I should confess that it took me, ohhhhh, about six.whole.months of playing cranial Twister to come up with this "simple" solution. Arghh. 😖 You're not the only one who overcomplicates!