Just So Stories Left Me Just So...

[sweetbaby]

speechless. My dc have been listening to the Just So Stories audiobook and my children's mouths began to drop on the story about How The Leopard Got His Spots. According to the story, he got them from an Ethiopian's black fingers and they said the story mentions how the Ethiopian's skin was very black and every time someone would see a leopard, you would know his spots came from an Ethiopian's black fingers. My sons, (11 yo twins and a 9 yo) mouths dropped and yelled, "Mom, this story is racist!" :confused: I was a little perplexed and in awe. I listened to it myself and asked them to explain how they felt about it. They felt is was bad and said it would make people think leopards got spots from black people. How sad!:sad: We turned it off. I felt really bad about it. Did we misinterpret something here? :001_unsure:

[Kathleen in VA]

speechless. My dc have been listening to the Just So Stories audiobook and my children's mouths began to drop on the story about How The Leopard Got His Spots. According to the story, he got them from an Ethiopian's black fingers and they said the story mentions how the Ethiopian's skin was very black and every time someone would see a leopard, you would know his spots came from an Ethiopian's black fingers. My sons, (11 yo twins and a 9 yo) mouths dropped and yelled, "Mom, this story is racist!" :confused: I was a little perplexed and in awe. I listened to it myself and asked them to explain how they felt about it. They felt is was bad and said it would make people think leopards got spots from black people. How sad!:sad: We turned it off. I felt really bad about it. Did we misinterpret something here? :001_unsure:

 

I'm caucasian so my perspective may be completely off - I just don't know. But the definition of racist means to believe a person's race makes them inferior or superior to other races. I think this story doesn't really make a judgment about inferiority or superiority - but I could definitely be missing it since I am not black. You could spin it in a way that makes it good. The Ethiopian could be gifted with the ability to anoint the leopard with its spots due to his deep rich color. I'm not sure what's bad about the Ethiopian being able to give the leopard its spots - it sounds like a cool magical power to me.

 

Toss this out if it makes no sense please. I do not have your perspective by a long shot. Oh, and for the record, I've never heard or read the story.

[laylamcb]

I hear ya, but the point of the story (IIRC) is that the man and the leopard were having trouble hunting because all of the other animals were receiving helpful camouflaging coloring. Then the leopard got these spots from the man that enabled him to camouflage, too (and therefore to catch his dinner). So the spots are a good thing. The only problem with the story, IMHO, is that in the original, Kipling uses the "n" word. Now, since you didn't mention that, I'm assuming that the version you listened to didn't use that word. The Naxos Audiobooks version, which is otherwise unabridged, has just taken out that entire sentence, for what it's worth.

 

HTH! :001_smile:

[Alana in Canada]

Oh my. It's wonderful your boys weresensitive to it--but I don't believe it is racist either--not in the context.

 

Perhaps you and your boys need a better understanding of what it means to be racist?

 

Does Cinderella discriminate against people with large feet?

 

Does Hansel and Gretel discriminate against step-mothers? (Perhaps it does!)

[Paula in MS]

My daughter (6) has been listening to the audiobooks at night. I knew that the "n" word was coming and talked to her about it before she listened to it. She had never heard the word before. Aside from that, the story is not meant to be racist. The Ethiopian does a good thing for the leopard.

 

I have wondered, what the historical use of the "n" word was and has it changed meaning through the years? Why would he have used the word in the manner that he did if it were derogatory at that time? It makes no sense in the context of the story if it were derogatory. Does anybody know the origins?

 

Also, how do you in general deal with these kinds of words in children's literature?

 

Paula

[Testimony]

If you go to the Ambleside Online website, they have a note that that part of the book has a racial slur and to skip it. Your children are very intelligent to pick that up.

 

Just so that you are aware, the older the books, the more racial slurs you will encounter. Remember, back then the writing was well done, but their views of darker skinned people was very demeaning.

 

When my children heard "Just So Stories," they knew that it was not true because the whole book is made up unreal stories. So, they thought that it was weird, but the whole book was silly. We just saw the book as funny.

 

Blessings in your homeschool journey.

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[PeterPan]

Man, my dd enjoys them just as a good yarn. Maybe you need to try a new genre? Different strokes for different folks, hehe. My dh and I laugh at totally different things, so maybe this is just not the type of literature your kids enjoy. And for what it's worth, having spent half of my childhood in the south, and not being in the dominant color spectrum at the time, I don't see that Kipling quote as racist. However, I read the Kipling aloud myself so I can edit things here and there, just like I edit the original Peter Pan or anything else. ;)

[jeri]

I appreciate the heads up! I guess since I haven't read the story, I can't comment on whether it is a "good" or "bad" thing, but I have found that I have become *very* sensitive to how subtly (sp?) comments about race can creep in. How about reading Little Britches and hearing how Ralph named his horse a shortened form of the n word! I substituted Blackie for the horse as I read. But later in the story the boy talks about how his father tells him that the only difference in men is that some of them are good and some are bad and it makes no difference in their color. So I guess (unacceptable as it may be) calling your horse that word was a sign of the times.

 

Blessings to you,

 

jeri

wife to Drew, 21 years

mom to six: 3 bios, one from Ukraine and two from Ethiopia

[Asma_08]

I read that comment on the AO site and decided to wait on those stories. I read Dr. Dolittle last year and I had to edit out a bit. I don't know how to deal with it. I realized that I didn't want my kids to really think about race yet. But of course they notice differences, I guess its something I should broach this year.

[sweetbaby]

Perhaps you and your boys need a better understanding of what it means to be racist?

Ummm, I don't think so.

 

As for other posters, thanks so much! You guys are so helpful in addressing what could be a sensitive issue here.

 

Testimony, thanks for the heads up. I stressed the "made up stories" thingy to them also.

 

Jeri, I love your response and yes, I think it is a sign of those times.

 

Thanks again everyone! :)

[sagira]

As someone with lots of different races combined, I wasn't offended. When I lived on a Caribbean island, I lived in an area mostly inhabited by people of African descent. Our city was referred to in an endearing way, as "chocolate city". It wasn't racist to the African islanders at all, and neither is it to me.

 

Yes, I do agree it is a sign of the area, as the "n" word was the word to describe the race at that time too, not used necessarily in a condescending way (but in many Western countries, unfortunately, that was exactly the case). In some parts of the world, the race is still described that way, not in a derogatory way, the word is loaded here in the USA, but just as the word Caucasian is.

 

I think it was sensitive of your dc to pick up on that -- great job, Mama, in sensitivity training :)

[Nestof3]

I'm just not understanding how stating the fact the Ethiopian's skin was black is a racist thing. My kids have never even heard of the term "racist" so perhaps your children are already beginning to look for racism in places where it doesn't really exist?

 

I can understand if they heard the n----- word, but it doesn't sound like they did.

 

I mean, I have very fair skin because I am part Irish. That's just a fact -- nothing racist about it.

[WTMCassandra]

This book was a bust at our house. We just couldn't stand it.

[Trivium Academy]

((Kysha)) I can see where you may be concerned and you'll do what you feel is right with your own children. I think that if my own kids were to do this, I'd ask them further why they thought it was racist. Is it only because an Ethiopian's skin color was mentioned? Or did they feel that the story was saying something negative about being Ethiopian? I would ask them to listen to the rest of the story and ask if the Ethiopian was helping or harming the leopard by giving it spots. I think the positive message of the story can shine through. I do understand the sensitivity, I know others may not esp. on the board where we're so spread out geographically and sometimes very culturally.

 

It your kids say it is because an Ethiopian's skin color was mentioned, exchange the Ethiopian for an Aborignine (sp?) and see if they still feel it is racist. This may be one of those teaching moments that will define something in their hearts and minds. Bless you Kysha. I pray I haven't offended you in any way by anything I've said.

[Zelda]

Kysha,

 

I haven't read the stories yet here but I just want to tell you that I understand how you feel. I'm biracial (Asian/Caucasian) and not being identified as part of the dominant culture I frequently find yourselves in situations where I get blindsided by blatant racism from unexpected sources and don't even realize I've been marginalized until its a second too late to say anything. Or worse, I just keep it in because I don't want to make someone else feel uncomfortable. Then I just stew about it until it goes away. Like a friend talking about how we can't meet with our kids at a certain park "because the Third World likes to congregate there".

 

And then there are times (infrequent ones) when I overreact to something that was completely benign but got my dander up for some reason. Embarrassing for everyone.

 

I can totally see reading something like that and not really knowing how to react. And if it made my kids uncomfortable I'd be doubly confused. I hope you found a resolution. I think the important thing is that you didn't have a knee-jerk reaction. You really wanted to consider it from all perspectives and the more everyone does that the better for everyone.

[Alana in Canada]

I apologise if I caused any offense. I was too brief. I meant only to say what nest of 3 said:

I'm just not understanding how stating the fact the Ethiopian's skin was black is a racist thing. My kids have never even heard of the term "racist" so perhaps your children are already beginning to look for racism in places where it doesn't really exist?

 

[FO4UR]

I haven't read that story, but it's on the list for next year. Hmmm...I might need to be prepared for a conversation, huh?

 

I agree with others that the fact that an Ethiopian was described as being black and a Leopard getting black spots from his fingers isn't racist in and of itself. I wonder if other passages made the man to seem inferior? If so, that would greatly bother me too! If the man's color was mentioned in a manner that is "matter of fact", I think it's fine - like describing someones hair red like fire, yellow like the sun...kwim.

 

What a great time to disect a story and talk about how words effect people!

 

btw - We read Seven Little Sisters ... by Jane Andrews and there is a story of a Chinese girl and it describes how they wrapped their feet. Dh had a knee-jerk reaction to that story (he is Asian). *I* don't think that the story was presented in a racist manner, but dh didn't like hearing it. So, I understand if your boys don't like the story, even if it isn't technically racist.:grouphug:

[Michele B]

Wow I think you ladies are doing a great job of discussing this with sensitivity and insight! Trivium Academy, I think your suggestions are excellent!

 

Michele

[sweetbaby]

I'm just not understanding how stating the fact the Ethiopian's skin was black is a racist thing. My kids have never even heard of the term "racist" so perhaps your children are already beginning to look for racism in places where it doesn't really exist?

 

I can understand if they heard the n----- word, but it doesn't sound like they did.

 

 

It was not the fact the Ethiopian's skin was black. I think it was the story line of how his black color gave Leopards their spots. It sounds strange but it's like saying chocolate milk is chocolate because black people touched it. Does that make sense now?

[sweetbaby]

Bless you Kysha. I pray I haven't offended you in any way by anything I've said.

 

Oh not at all! I think everyone has really been helpful and it's been interesting reading the responses. We did discuss this actually. Our family is not one to jump at racial topics or things of that nature. We are a combination of many races. My heritage is African American, Cherokee Indian and Irish. We attend a multicultural church with a Caucasian pastor ( My pastor rocks! Whoohoo!) so my children are not exposed to this sort of thing which is why I was taken back by their response. We did follow up with a discussion and I stressed how these stories are not real but more like Hansel and Gretel. I was just surprise at their response and how this made them feel. I can now see their point of view but I don't want them to be overly sensitive about things of this nature esp. when there is no cause. You know what I mean?

 

I wanted to make sure we weren't misinterpreting something there.

[Nicole M]

It was not the fact the Ethiopian's skin was black. I think it was the story line of how his black color gave Leopards their spots. It sounds strange but it's like saying chocolate milk is chocolate because black people touched it. Does that make sense now?

 

I get it. The idea that color rubs off diminishes the full humanity of the Ethiopian in the story. It is racist, and yes, reflects the time in which it was written, despite what others here might sense.

 

There are stories that we find offensive for various reasons, though they are considered "classics" though I would be hard pressed to convince others with alternative p.o.v. why they are not acceptable to us. We simply discuss the whatever it is and move on to the next.

 

I can see how that would startle you and your children. It stinks when you're blindsided by something like that.

[LN in WI]

Kipling was an excellent writer...

 

However, I think it is important to be aware that he was a strong proponent of the concept of the "white man's burden". He lived in imperialist Britian and espoused the worst views (as far as race is concered) of his time. Most caucasion Britians did.

 

This philosophy obviously shows in his work, as it does in Mark Twain's work.

 

Just something to keep in mind when you are reading him.

 

:001_smile:Ellen

[Nicole M]

I can now see their point of view but I don't want them to be overly sensitive about things of this nature esp. when there is no cause. You know what I mean?

 

 

 

This is very wise, and what I was trying to get at with the "move on" thing. Aware, but not overly sensitive - that's an important line to walk, and I think you're doing it darned well.

 

Nicole

[Nestof3]

It was not the fact the Ethiopian's skin was black. I think it was the story line of how his black color gave Leopards their spots. It sounds strange but it's like saying chocolate milk is chocolate because black people touched it. Does that make sense now?

 

Honestly, Kysha, I still think your children may be more aware of the concept of racism, because we are always reading folktales from so many different countries and cultures, and my 8 year old loves Kipling's Just So Stories and never once have we given any thought to any of them being racist. Again, my young boys don't know the concept -- much less the word. I see his explanation for the leopard's spots in the same light as I see his explanation for the camel's hump.

 

Perhaps because they haven't been explained the concept of "racism," my boys don't even know how to detect it in a book. Now, surely, when they're old enough to read a book like To Kill a Mockingbird and when they're old enough to read the newspaper, they'll learn the concept, but for now, we don't see a need to explain that some people see the "brown" family down the street as inferior. [We don't teach our children that any person is inferior to any other person, so I don't see any need to elaborate on it further at this age.]

 

I only bring this up because my boys see that the family's skin is different than ours, but they also describe people by what car is in the driveway or the color shirt the person is wearing. They come up with some way to explain who they're talking about if they don't know the person's name, so when, for example, Ben met David down the street he called their family the "brown" family, and when he met the most recent family, he referred to them as the family with the white van.

 

He didn't see the brown family as inferior to the family with the white van, he just isn't good about saying, "Hi, I'm Ben, what's your name?" Instead, he chooses something that stands out to him. I hope that makes sense.

[sweetbaby]

Kipling was an excellent writer...

 

However, I think it is important to be aware that he was a strong proponent of the concept of the "white man's burden". He lived in imperialist Britian and espoused the worst views (as far as race is concered) of his time. Most caucasion Britians did.

 

This philosophy obviously shows in his work, as it does in Mark Twain's work.

 

Just something to keep in mind when you are reading him.

 

 

 

Interesting.

[Lovedtodeath]

Originally Posted by nestof3

I'm just not understanding how stating the fact the Ethiopian's skin was black is a racist thing. My kids have never even heard of the term "racist" so perhaps your children are already beginning to look for racism in places where it doesn't really exist?

 

I can understand if they heard the n----- word, but it doesn't sound like they did.

 

 

I have seen a lot of this. Seeing racism where it does not exist can cause problems as much as racism itself, and I really think that this story gives us the opportunity to help our children to learn what racism really is, and not be so sensitive.

 

1 Corinthians 13:5 "Love does not become provoked"

 

I think that saying something similar to a black person made chocolate milk by touching it depends on the context as to whether it is racist. KWIM?

[sweetbaby]

Hey,guys! I'm not the moderator but I think it may be safe to close this one. This is such a sensitive topic and your responses have been very interesting. I haven't been offended but I don't want this to potential be more than what it was intended which was about how to handle this situation with my kiddos. Thanks for your help!

 

Hey, did you see that someone gave this thread a 2 rating (for 'bad') LOL! Enough said. :lol:

 

 

I love you guys!