When "It was a dark and stormy night" meets "You know you're a homeschooler if..."

[creekland]

Last night was a dark and stormy night here in our section of PA (even had a tornado watch), so true to form, one of our mares decides it's a PERFECT time to have her foal - 12/13 days early.  All appears fine at this time so we get to welcome our latest buckskin filly to the farm!  (Pic would be attached if I hadn't already used up all my space... later I'll see if I can link to web pics.)

 

PICS viewable in posts #10, 15, 18, 19, & 20...

 

But then my mind starts to notice the details.  This is the third buckskin filly in a row from this sire/dam combo.  (Mom is black, dad is buckskin.)  The fourth foal back was a buckskin colt.  The fifth foal back was a smoky black filly.  (Smoky black carries the buckskin gene, but without the black modifier gene.)  Prior to that we bred mom to a different sire, so those don't count.

 

For a quick horse-color genetics lesson, black, creme, and the black modifier (agouti), and of course, gender, all come on separate genes.  Only the stallion has creme, agouti, and gender as well as 50% black/red.  The mare can only pass on only black or red.  We know neither are homozygous for black, but black is dominant over red.

 

With black x buckskin, we had a 75% of getting a black based foal.  All five have been (100%).  No biggie.  That happens.

 

But, each time we only had a 50% chance of getting the creme (only comes from the buckskin).  We got it 100% of the time too.

 

And, there was a separate 50% chance of getting the black modifying gene.  We got that 80% of the time.

 

Then the gender gene comes from papa too - supposedly 50% - but we're at 80% fillies with this combo.

 

And 60% have had black, creme, agouti, and double X. 100% of our last three.

 

From a homeschooling perspective, does this fall into "Look how even really unlikely stats sometimes happen?" or "You know, I think that article that suggested certain horses just might have "links" with their color genes due to really unlikely stats happening too often..."

 

I used to very much align with the "stuff happens" side.  Now I'm not so sure.  Perhaps the "swimmers" with certain genes have an edge?

 

Looking at the stallion's previous stats with other mares, only 4 offspring have not had creme.  Only one of those 4 has been black based and that one had a mare who might have been homozygous (could only pass on black) as we don't have her back history, but all of her foals were black based.  The other three were red.

 

It does give one pause when thinking about gene linkage.

 

And when I caught myself thinking about it... that gave me pause too, but then I considered that I like who I am and the way my brain works, so who cares if it's not normal?  ;)

 

And in any case, getting a buckskin filly is a nice present from a storm!

[BigMamaBird]

I hope you named it something appropriate like Thunder!

 

Congrats on the new baby!

[trulycrabby]

Congratulations on the new baby! She sounds really, really pretty. :001_wub:

 

Thanks for the genetics lesson; it was fun! ;)

[shukriyya]

Loved this little glimpse into the life of a horse breeder/farmer. How thrilling to welcome a foal-- is that the correct term? -- into the world! Pics would be great.

[*Lulu*]

That is awesome, and fun!

[creekland]

Ok, trying for pics here... and middle son and I have been enjoying the genetics/gene linkage possibilities - esp since he just finished a genetics class at college last year and is able to update me on current thoughts.  ;)  There is only one known offspring of this stallion that broke the creme/agouti link though we just don't know agouti on the few reds he has.  There's a different one that broke the creme/black link.  But middle son told me linked genes can "not work" at times, so it's not a "one case and that theory is blown" deal.

 

In general, our odds are lining up with the best swimmers getting cream/agouti/black and the second best being red without cream (agouti unknown since we don't do DNA testing on color).  We have a definite preference to the cream/agouti/black or at least cream, so I'm liking it - even if it's all just really unlikely stats working in our favor!

 

Pics:  (Ok, I tried inserting it, but it tells me I can't... someone with more computer savvy than I will have to offer assistance if you want to see pics without a link, but otherwise, here's a link... (and it can be a slideshow with three pony pics + one of my youngest and middle at youngest's graduation the end of May - it doesn't quite fit, but I don't want to delete it!)

 

http://s45.photobucket.com/user/creekland/media/Web%20Photos/bd0690d7-e9f1-449e-948a-3ee07eef6cf2.jpg.html?sort=2&o=4

 

 

[shukriyya]

Oh, those are wonderful. What loveliness!

[melbotoast]

Genetics are weird. My family has Long QT Syndrome. It is an autosomal dominant gene, so there should be a 50% chance of getting it. 5 out of 5 of my dad's kids got it. For my kids, 3 out of 3 did not get the gene. I guess my mom's good gene battled it out and defeated my dad's bad gene :) My aunts/uncles/cousins have various combinations, but in our branch of the family it is all or nothing.

 

Congrats on the new filly!

[creekland]

I should note that it is our mare who picked the foaling spot - she chose an open overhang in the pasture.  It's not exactly where I would have liked for her to have it (grass pastures are cleaner), but evidently, she didn't want to be out in the rain this time.

 

We are very much of the belief that nature takes care of itself (most of the time) and are only there for times when it doesn't, so we don't interfere except for after the birth to douse the stump with iodine, then stick around to make sure "plumbing" works, etc.

 

Hence... no fancy foaling stall, etc.  ;)

 

And names?  We pick a theme each year, and with youngest heading off to Eckerd College this year, that's our theme.  We're not sure on a name just yet - only the theme.  We'll have to think about it.

 

Due to my boys growing up and moving out we are only expecting two foals this year - this one and one other.  In our "heyday" we had 4-7 each year (and themes sure helped me keep years/ages straight!).  It was fun and some have gone on to be literal champions in the show pony world. Others make nice backyard ponies.  My goal is that they all get their "dream home" with a job.   ;)

[Ellie]

 

Here you go.

 

I totally enjoyed your homeschool moment. :-)

 

Oh, and FTR, buckskin is my favorite, and the genetics behind it is quite interesting. :-)

[creekland]

Loved this little glimpse into the life of a horse breeder/farmer. How thrilling to welcome a foal-- is that the correct term? -- into the world! Pics would be great.

 

Foal is the correct word for a young pony/horse - something that is this year's baby. 

 

Suckling is one still with it's mama.

 

Weanling is this year, but weaned from it's mama.

 

Yearling is one year old.

 

Filly is a female horse under 5 years of age. 

 

Colt is a male horse under 5 years of age.

 

Stallion is a male - intact - horse over 5 years of age, but many use it for breeding "stallions" of any age.

 

Gelding is a fixed male of any age.

 

Mare is a female 5 years of age or older, but again, in practice, can be used younger.

 

Pony is the "type" of equine when the mature height is right at or under 14.2hh (hands high - each hand is 4 inches) at the withers (top point where shoulder meets neck).  This mare is a "large pony" as she measures 14.1hh - many "novice" horse folks call her a horse.  ;)  Horses are technically those over 14.2hh at maturity.  A young horse is never a pony despite their height.  It's only mature height that counts.

 

Then there are miniature horses and the whole deal of whether they are technically ponies or not - I'm not going there.  ;)

 

 

Here you go.

 

I totally enjoyed your homeschool moment. :-)

 

Oh, and FTR, buckskin is my favorite, and the genetics behind it is quite interesting. :-)

 

Ok... HOW did you do that?  Curious, technically inept, posters (namely me) want to know!

[Ellie]

 

Ok... HOW did you do that?  Curious, technically inept, posters (namely me) want to know!

 

I clicked on your link and saw the picture; I right-clicked on the picture, selected "copy image" from the drop-down box, came back here and pasted it into the reply field. :-)

[Snow]

Thanks for the story and pics. So cool!

[Ewe Mama]

She's beautiful!

[creekland]

I clicked on your link and saw the picture; I right-clicked on the picture, selected "copy image" from the drop-down box, came back here and pasted it into the reply field. :-)

 

Ok, I had been trying the "insert image" link.  Let me try one of the other pics...

 

 

[creekland]

I clicked on your link and saw the picture; I right-clicked on the picture, selected "copy image" from the drop-down box, came back here and pasted it into the reply field. :-)

 

Ooh, I like my newly obtained power!  Many, many thanks!!!

 

Middle son is out getting pasture pics as I type.  Mama finally took baby out and baby is looking great.  Another two - three days and she'll be filled out looking better and we'll have our first look at true "show" motion vs "wow, these things work" motion.  The other crosses have been quite good, so she has some sibling pressure going on.  ;)

 

[maize]

What a lovely story! I find genetics fascinating. We have never bred horses but coming from a large family has given my siblings and I numerous opportunities to discuss human genetics. Eye color has been particularly interesting--my parents both have hazel eyes, and out of ten children only one ended up with hazel. The others are all various shades of blue, grey, green, or brown. Truly fascinating.

[creekland]

With my newly acquired skill, here are some pics from baby's first "field trip" - and hey, we use REAL fields around here!

 

Oh, and papa was also in the field - feeling neglected - so middle son snapped some of him too.  (Mares often don't feel comfortable being "alone" when they are out, so he is her companion - one who knows very well that he had better keep his distance if he treasures his life.  Other mares or youngsters can get too insistent on seeing the new arrival and really irritate/stress the mare.  We will be doing some companion swapping in the next week in order to control breeding...)

 

 

[creekland]

 

[creekland]

 

[Catherine]

She is darling!

 

As far as the genetics go, I wonder if there is a possibility that some embryos form, but do not implant or survive?

 

I know that "swim faster" and "live longer" are real factors when it comes to conception of male or female offspring. Y sperm swim faster, bit X's live longer. So the timing of conception, plus "maternal environment" (could that be a factor here?) change the likelihood of getting a boy or girl.

[Belacqua]

Oh, what a lovely family. Filly already looks so self-sufficient.

 

And I am just loving the sire. He's so gorgeous and slightly dissolute looking. Like that beautiful guy in a band who shows up just long enough to keep you hooked. Especially in that first photo, with his forelock all in disarray. "Hey, babe. Great job. She's a beauty. Got my coloring. Heh. Anyway...me and the boys have a gig in Chagrin Falls on Saturday, so...."

[trulycrabby]

 

Here you go.

 

I totally enjoyed your homeschool moment. :-)

 

Oh, and FTR, buckskin is my favorite, and the genetics behind it is quite interesting. :-)

:001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:

[trulycrabby]

Ok, I had been trying the "insert image" link.  Let me try one of the other pics...

 

:001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:

 

Mama is lovely, too! :001_wub:

[trulycrabby]

 

Oh yes, papa definitely has a rakish look about him. He is gorgeous! :)

[Tammi K]

Oh, she's so pretty.

[creekland]

She is darling!

 

As far as the genetics go, I wonder if there is a possibility that some embryos form, but do not implant or survive?

 

I know that "swim faster" and "live longer" are real factors when it comes to conception of male or female offspring. Y sperm swim faster, bit X's live longer. So the timing of conception, plus "maternal environment" (could that be a factor here?) change the likelihood of getting a boy or girl.

 

Like any other critter, some embryos do not survive and some could not implant, but all we would know is that the mare didn't take on the breeding cycle.

 

There is an old wives tale that goes along with the male/female sperm being more likely to "win" the swim.  Supposedly the closer to ovulation one breeds, the more likely one is to get a colt as males are believed to win the race if speed is a deal, but females are more likely to be long lived.  I'm not sure if that's been tested or just old wives tale...

 

One usually breeds BEFORE ovulation as the sperm can live a couple of days, but the time the egg is "there" is short, so, unless one wants to be checking and checking and checking... well, we (and many others) just know the "time" and tend to breed every 36 hours or so.  Pasture breeding has worked for millennia, but stallions with just a few mares can really overdo it and hurt the mare - making conception actually less likely (+ other issues), so we don't stick with nature quite that much - plus - I like having known due dates - even if storms cause mares to foal 12/13 days early (well within accepted times).

 

And, whether we "prefer" a colt or filly totally depends upon the color, so it's useless to try to plot things out hour-wise.  If bay or chestnut (ho-hum buyer colors), then we want colts as pony buyers prefer geldings for their kids.  If a decent color (buckskin, black, palomino, pinto) then we prefer a filly as breeders prefer colors and enough kids like color to overrule the "gelding preferred" option.  Of course, geldings with color also sell... but usually not as quickly as fillies - plus they need to be gelded - an extra cost.

 

Oh, what a lovely family. Filly already looks so self-sufficient.

 

And I am just loving the sire. He's so gorgeous and slightly dissolute looking. Like that beautiful guy in a band who shows up just long enough to keep you hooked. Especially in that first photo, with his forelock all in disarray. "Hey, babe. Great job. She's a beauty. Got my coloring. Heh. Anyway...me and the boys have a gig in Chagrin Falls on Saturday, so...."

 

It is amazing just how self-sufficient young equines are.  They are up and walking/nursing within an hour and running shortly thereafter.  Contrast that with kittens and puppies where it can take weeks just to open their eyes - or humans that take a year to sort of walk.  At three months we could wean babies, but we prefer somewhere in the 4 - 6 month range.

 

And our stallion?  We bred and raised him.  ;)  He's 3/4ths Quarter Horse (but you'd never know except for temperament) and 1/4 Welsh (which is what he looks like more).  He passes on his Welsh look, his great temperament (very kind and gentle and loves people), sportiness (athleticism), and, perhaps more than odds say he should, his color!  His full brother (gelded) competed in National Pony Finals in Pony Jumpers this past year and was leading until the final Jump Off (then finished 9th I think).  He has other offspring doing well in both hunters and jumpers - and some back yard fun for some.  ;)

 

This filly's dam is a registered (breeding stock - means she didn't get the "pinto" markings) Paint.  She again gives us great temperament with her babies and a usually flat kneed motion (that hunters like) + a nice "large pony" size.  She has one who was competing at Devon this year and who has won some other rated classes.  Some others I've lost track of.

 

One does have to be super careful with her the first day after foaling though - her mother hormones run strong.  We have to handle the baby quickly with what we need to do (while she's still tired), then let her be for a week or so.  After that she's back to her sweet self.

[Catwoman]

I don't know much about horses, so I'm loving this thread! :)

 

Your horses are beautiful!!!!!! :001_wub: