idnib Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Sorry for the novel... My neighbor and I get along well and she told me her public-schooled son has been having trouble with writing, according to his teacher. He's in 2nd grade. We hypothesized that perhaps he didn't do well with the typical writing instruction at the school, which includes lots of writing, creative spelling, and "research reports" which seem to mostly be done with the parents' help. She liked the idea of copywork and dictation. Because I already own WWE I offered to help and so I've been doing the lessons, starting at Level 1 Lesson 1. We were able to move quickly through the first 18 weeks or so. Now that the excerpts are more advanced (think The Reluctant Dragon vs. Charlotte's Web) he's struggling. I read him a passage, typically 4-7 paragraphs, and he seems to be listening and interested. At the end it seems he genuinely does not know the answers to any of the content questions. I have tried re-reading entire passages rather than just the section he needs to answer, so as to made it undesirable for him to be lazy about it. Today, the answers for 4 different questions happened to be in the same paragraph, which I read him 4 times so that each time he could find the answer. So it was ask Q1/read entire paragraph/get answer for Q1/ask Q2 (answer is in same paragraph)/reread paragraph/get answer for Q2/etc. 4 times. I asked him if he prefers hearing the question first and then listening for just that answer and he said yes, and requested I give him the questions before reading. I refused because I told him we were working on his listening. He has also requested that he be allowed to go back and re-read the passage to find the answer. (When I read it aloud I haven't let him look at it.) When I declined, he said when his mom reads to him and asks him questions, she allows him to read and find the answers. He's a good reader and is at about an early 4th grade level. He doesn't like to read, though, and his mom tells me the only thing he reads voluntarily are video game articles and Captain Underpants. He's a very active child and somewhat oblivious to things around him (spilling water, pencils rolling away, tripping, etc) I'm at a loss. My son at that age just answered the questions without a problem and I'm not starting WWE with my daughter until September so I don't have a different experience. Any ideas? ETA: Not that people who spill water are oblivious, I mean after it's spilled and spreading everywhere in front of him, he still doesn't realize it. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoGal Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 It sounds like he is not picturing the story as he listens (or reads). I would teach him to visualize what you are saying while you read to him. Start with just a sentence. And ask him what he pictures for that. For example, if you read the sentence "The kids were having an egg hunt," ask him what he pictures - is it outside or inside, how many kids does he picture, what objects are in the picture, etc. Make sure he has a full and complete picture in his mind. When he gets good at picturing sentences, try a few sentences, then a paragraph (over several sessions - whatever his pace is). Eventually he should be able to picture as you read a WWE passage. I did this with ds when he was younger and it really helped. When he asked why he needed to do this, I explained that he has part of his brain that is in charge of words and part that is in charge of pictures. If the two parts work together, they are much more powerful and can remember a lot more. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 When I was younger- even through my 30's I was unable to recall anything well unless I had some physical connection to it. So I would either highlight or take notes of the passage. For comprehension style questions (SAT style), I would skip straight to the questions and then go back through the written materials to find the answers. Oddly, I do have great recall of the physical location of a particular fact in a passage. So if I've read a document I can tell you that the information I need is on the 3 page, upper right corner. The visual/physical is very important though. Just listening to someone, I might be fully engaged in the story at the time but I won't be able to bring it back up in memory. I would have a really hard time performing under the circumstances you described. I am doing better at being able to watch and recall things lately, since I started taking a non-stimulant ADHD medication. (I'm not sure if that is the reason.) But, even when watching a television program, I am MUCH happier if closed captioning is available. I always choose CC for Coursera lectures if it available and I find that when I don't have the ability to read along I sometimes have to replay video sections. Thus, I think that his request to be able to read the passage himself is a legitimate request. He's learned to self-accomodate his learning style. If the parent wants to work on his listening skills, I would chose a different format to work on that area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 My daughter does not process spoken language well if she is required to recall details. She HAS to have a visual reference or for me to slow down the reading of the text and help her visualize what is happening. She does better with things like graphic novels for reading because she does have a visual reference. DD does very poorly with books on cd because of this. If she can see the text as she hears the words spoken her comprehension and retention are better. Scientific research is showing that actually most people tend to retain information better if they see the text and hear it at the same time. Immersion Reading has helped since the text is synced up with the audio. You hear the text being read while the words being spoken are highlighted so you can follow along. Has he ever had an assessment of any kind? There could be MANY things tripping him up but without an assessment you may not be able to truly know what is happening or how to effectively address the issue(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 Thanks everyone for your feedback. It's very helpful. I am not a visual person and do not visualize anything when I read so this is new to me. I'm going to have to figure this out for him. He didn't have trouble with the easier books, such as Charlotte's Web, Pinocchio, Peter Pan, or The Frog and the Princess. Does that still indicate a visual problem? Another thing he does is give answers that don't make sense or were never in the passage. For example, today's passage (from Child's Geography of the World) talked about how the planet has layers, like a jelly roll cake. Some of those layers have coal, diamonds, oil, etc. The top layer is stone and is like a potato skin on a hot potato. When I asked him what the top layer was made of, he said coal. When I asked him to name something in the layers, he said jellyfish. The passage had talked about people using wells to get oil out of the ground. When I asked him what we use wells for, he told me fire comes out of the wells, when that was actually part of the sentence about volcanoes. A couple of weeks ago he used "lobster" for an answer and there was nothing about food or sea life in the passage at all. When he answers he thinks for a bit and then gives me an answer and his voice is triumphant, like he suddenly figured it out and is excited. :sad: And despite the fact that I remind him to give me complete sentences, he never remembers until I remind him each time. eg "Where does lava come out from the earth?" "Volcanoes!" "Full sentence, please." "Lava comes out of volcanoes." He understands what a complete sentence is and has crafted some very nice ones, but in the "aha' moment he forgets, and the "aha" is incorrect too. :confused1: He has not been evaluated. His mom has had one meeting with the teacher. She and I agreed I would try a different approach so that's where I came in. The teacher's complaint was that he skips words when reading and writing, but he has never done that for me. I have him copy sentences and he rarely makes mistakes in that task, maybe missing a comma or forgetting the period at the end of the sentence, totally normal for a 2nd grader. When I ask him to tell me one thing he remembers from the passage, he has no problem coming up with something in a well-crafted sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Totally non-professional opinion here, but I think he should be evaluated for auditory/verbal confusion (no idea what the medical term is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I agree. An evaluation might really help clarify what is happening before he gets into higher grades. 2nd grade is where both of my kids really started to show signs that something was not quite typical. I had suspect something was up with DD from 4k onward but 2nd grade was where I started to wonder if we needed an evaluation. I chose not to get one for years because my DH and my ps teacher mother discouraged me. DD was making good grades for the most part and seemed to be surviving school. I waited until 5th grade, when she was already falling behind, felt demoralized and confused at school, and was terribly depressed. It was a mistake. DS did phenomenally well in school...until half way through 2nd where he crashed and burned spectacularly. He still carries emotional scars from that year. If they can get a private eval done for their child during the summer, that might really help with how to deal with school for this next year. Are you planning to tutor him over the summer? Getting concrete answers for what might be tripping him up would almost certainly help you with how to handle tutoring sessions, or at least give you some idea of where to research to find ways to help, if you still plan to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 In regards to the reference to Earth layers example, I totally had to look back at what you wrote. Jellyfish seemed legit to me :p On a serious note, I can't process just auditory at a "details" level. I need the words in front of me as well. I stress this daily with my kids. They'll start reading out a problem and asking me if their answer is correct. I have to stop them and ask for the book to be placed before me. It just isn't a strong area for me. Could be ADHD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 By the way, I do terribly if someone just reads something to me. If I can't see the words in print, or have some sort of visual reference to look at, I do just as bad as DD at times. I HAVE to see the words or much of the detail of the passage is lost to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Have you tried giving him a squeeze ball or allowing him stand and move about as you read? Maybe give him a copy of what you are reading aloud and allow him to draw picture notes in the margins. After the reading is completed, let him look at his notes then flip the page over and have him narrate back to you. Not all kids are auditory learners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City Mouse Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Coming from a public school perspective, the kids are taught to go back and look for the answers in reading passages, so I don't think that request is at all unusual. His mistakes on your geography passage do not concern me at all since the descriptions seem to be very different from how that topic might be taught in public school. Does he even know what a jelly roll is? If he does know, a jelly roll would not be my idea of a good comparison with the Earth's layers. If he has already learned about the Earth's layers he will probably have been introduced to the vocabulary of core, mantle, and crust. Distinct layers of diamonds and coal do not fit in to this way of teaching earths layers. Depending on his level of general knowledge, fire can and does come out of wells even if that is not the preferred use for oil and/ gas wells. At this point all I would do is share info about his progress with the parents and see what they want to you to do. Your style of teaching is very different from what he is experiencing in school(nothing wrong with that), and I wouldn't think that there was anything wrong with him experiencing some confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 He could have auditory processing issues, or this could just not be a great way for him to learn content. My older son is highly auditory (and highly visual too). I am a terrible auditory learner and getting worse. I am visual verbal, not auditory verbal. I love books on tape, but don't test me on them. I love podcasts, but these things are "I'll get out of them what I'll get out of them." If I had to learn specific information from them, I would have to sit and take detailed notes. Kids this age may not have the breadth of experience to process something unfamiliar if that one tiny piece of unfamiliar information is what the rest hangs on--hence jellyroll/jellyfish. If a child doesn't know what a jellyroll is, he's pretty much sunk for attaching the content to that piece of information. The whole comparison is lost. If he already knows and understands about the layers of the earth, he might be able to conclude that a jellyroll is something with layers (if he heard jellyroll, not jellyfish), but then he's lost on whatever details you are trying to communicate because he's been trying to figure out just what a jellyroll is. Not to mention that figuring things out from context is a skill all by itself. If he's got layers down, but he's trying to remember the details, and he didn't hear jellyroll clearly (or know what it is), he could have some "jelly" word rolling in his head that he simply ignored because he couldn't figure out it...then out pops jellyfish instead. So many possible ways for this to go. If a child hears a new word and already knows a word that sounds similar, guess what pops into their mind if they don't realize they didn't hear it correctly? The word they already know. Experience helps with this kind of thing a great deal. City kids might not picture piles of manure when they think "cow." Farm kids don't picture milk cartons when they think about cows. People who grow up with food allergies might not have ever seen a jellyroll because it's lethal in their house. Copywork and dictation might still help him in some way with writing, but I probably wouldn't expect him to do it without a chance to read the passage since you know he's not hearing it correctly. He might just need some graphic organizers for writing at school or some totally different strategy. My auditory learner is more likely to be able to memorize something you dictate than accurately put it on paper. He's glitchy in the "think, spell, form letters all at once" area of life. He'd have to make several passes through the information to do all of that, even if he could practically recite it all back to you word for word. He randomly capitalizes words in the middle of sentences, etc. It's not that he doesn't know better, he just can't put it all together at one time (he has some exceptionalities). Bottom line: there are many places this train could break down that might be a red flag or simply an age-related quirk. Kudos to you for helping your neighbor try to figure out what's up at school. I'm sure what you find out will help her know more about her son even if it doesn't ultimately yield answers to the specific problem at hand. On a side note...I think I've read that most people are some combination of visual and verbal with lots of interesting ways to use and combine the two strengths. From what I understand, people who think in pictures without words and people who think without pictures are both in the minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 Thanks everyone for your help. So far the plan is for me to continue tutoring him during the summer. His mom is going through a lot of personal/medical stuff right now which is why the meeting with the teacher felt overwhelming to her and I offered to try and step in with another approach. We haven't spoken of stopping. She's not paying me or anything; he's my son's friend and I enjoy him and saw an opportunity to either help him or at least provide her with more data. If I may be really frank...I hope I don't regret this....full story time... I really do wonder if he's trying to get out of our work. He doesn't like school at all. He doesn't like reading. He doesn't like work. He's a bit spoiled with material things and ruling the roost at home. After school, aside from 20-30 minutes of homework (which he whines about a lot to his mom) and 15-20 minutes with me for 1-2 WWE lessons (no whining), he spends all his time either outside playing (lots of energy), playing video games, watching movies, or watching Youtube videos of other people playing video games(!) When I asked him the purpose of watching other people play video games is, he said he likes to watch the games he's not allowed to play. His mom sets up the videos for him. This makes me :confused1: . I can honestly say he has his mom under his thumb and manipulates her a bit that I've seen, not sure how it is in private. When the passages were easier he really did fine and I spent my time reassuring his mom that so far we had not run into trouble yet. Suddenly, starting 2-3 weeks ago when the passages required more thinking and close listening, he just started giving me these non-sensical answers. "Lobster?" When the whole passage was about a land dragon who didn't want to fight, with no mention of sea life whatsoever in the entire passage? I really want to help him and if there's a genuine problem I'd like to do what I can to get him the help he needs. But I have the nagging feeling he's trying to get out of work and end our tutoring because I'm tougher on him that either the school or his mom. ie "The school and mom don't make me use complete sentences." I'm the only thing standing between him and video game time. Then I feel guilty that he probably has a real problem and the level of difficulty has exposed it and I shouldn't be suspicious of an 8 year old. :( Despite the above, I do enjoy working with him. I also think he enjoys having the passages read to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atilla the Mom Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Sounds like he may have a language comprehension issue. I would try Lindamood Bell's Visualizing and Verbalizing for Language Comprehension with him. http://www.amazon.com/Visualizing-Verbalizing-Language-Comprehension-Thinking/dp/0945856016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 idnib, I cannot say if this child is trying to get out of work or not, but in my personal experience children that young who are trying to "get out of work" are doing so because they are struggling in some way, perhaps not a way that is readily apparent, but still, they are struggling a bit (or a lot) and are trying to avoid struggling. Struggling in something that everyone else seems to be able to do easily can be really demoralizing and none of us usually likes to do something that seems really frustrating and/or hard, especially if we begin to wonder secretly if we are even capable. Also, as I and others have said, many people do NOT learn just through auditory input. I certainly don't. Continually using only auditory input to judge his comprehension skills in reading may not be effective at all in helping him learn. Different people learn differently. No one in my family learns the same way. Some of us needed evals to determine our strengths and weaknesses and others just needed to discover how we best learn, but none of us truly learn the same. And I know just auditory input for me would have been very challenging. FWIW, there could be many issues tripping him up, some pretty minor, some more serious, but I just don't see his answers as ones he is giving you just to get out of doing his work. My BIL frequently says he is going to vacuum the lawn instead of mow. He means mow but it sometimes comes out vacuum. This seems silly but in his head he has substituted a word that honestly represents a similar situation. To my mind a Lobster is actually not all that different from a dragon. If he has any processing issues or difficulties with word retrieval, or auditory processing problems or a host of other things, that response really isn't too far off what he was seeking. His brain was grasping and that is what it came up with. He wasn't deliberately giving you a crazy answer just to get out of doing his work, IMHO. It is really nice of you to offer to tutor this boy. You may be a real lifesaver for his mother. If there IS any sort of learning difference, or the way you are using the material is not tapping into his learning strengths, then you may have to do additional research (as you have been doing here) and be a lot more flexible in your approach to be successful, though. BTDT. Nearly everyone on this board (if not everyone) has had to learn to flex and change approaches until they find a way to tap into strengths while helping kids over learning humps. That is a lot to ask of a volunteer neighbor/tutor, but if you are willing you may very well be able to help him. You might encourage her to read The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide as a starting off point. And do some additional research on learning styles in general, as well as auditory learning vs. visual learning specifically. I agree with others, we are usually a blend of these things. You might read up on these things, too. It could help give you both some ideas on how to help this boy and to implement those ideas BEFORE he has to face 3rd grade. Best wishes. Honestly, I admire you trying to help. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I would give him my new Elizabethian test and the MWIA level 1 test. He should not miss more than 1 phonetic word on the MWIA and should not read the phonetic words more than 15% slower than the holistic words. He most likely was taught with some sight words and whole language methods, here is my "Why Johnny Doesn't Like to Read" page explaining why this teaching can cause problems and dislike of reading: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/aliterate.html And here is my testing page: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/readinggradeleve.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 Thanks everyone. There's lots to take in and I plan to implement some ideas and discuss with the mom. I had planned some ideas for yesterday but the student came by and told me he had forgotten he had a music performance. We are unavailable Thursday afternoons so I hope to try some of these suggestions tomorrow and Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I'd see how he does this summer. After a long day of school and homework, he's probably fried. Some of the things remind me of my DS when his ADHD is in high gear (answering nonsensically just to have an answer, not following directions), and he is very bright with no auditory issues. He just chases rabbits when someone reads aloud. It's better if I can get him doing something physical. For short things, balancing on one foot has worked. Otherwise he needs at least a fidget toy. Anyway, I think you'll get a clearer picture of the true issues when you're working with him when he's fresh. My DS might look like a hot mess at that point in the day, when in reality he's just a tired little kid. If the child does have ADHD, he's going to be extra tired from holding it together or attempting to hold it together all day in school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I would recommend to the mom that she get him tested for auditory processing disorder with a pediatric audiologist who is familiar with it. One thing about processing is that if something is rather straightforward there will be no problem, or if there's enough interested to sustain the extra attention required there will be no problem. That is why you may be seeing the difficulty now that the passages are becoming longer and more complex. Obviously, there could be some attention problem, but I'd be interested in the auditory part and finding out what could help before considering medication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If he is willing to read it to find the answers, but is not getting it from being read to, then there might be an auditory issue. I would let him read it. When in life is the ability to hear, but not read, going to be a big skill. Usually, it is the other way around. But on that note, I would have his mom get him audiobooks and start having him listen to them all the time. I do not know why, but I personally can have a hard time following something if I do not see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 I decided to try and be systematic about this. Yesterday when he came over I talked with him about imagining things while I read them. I asked him to close his eyes but he wouldn't, saying he didn't need to in order to imagine. I read it to him and asked him to describe what he was seeing. For example I said it was a warm summer day and he described sunshine, blooming flowers, and a hill in the distance. He was able to remember more of the story. He still struggled a bit but it was a definite improvement. Based on today's troubles, I plan to provide some definitions for words while I read, as if they were in parentheses after the word. The more I thought about it, I realized he doesn't do well at picking up meanings of unknown words from context and he doesn't ask. I expect my kids to ask if they don't grasp meaning from context (they often do) but perhaps he has been discouraged from doing so in a class of 30 kids. For those concerned, I haven't ruled out telling his mom to get an eval. She's just going through a lot right now and I figured I would wait a week or two, in the meantime generating more data for her about what works and what doesn't for when she goes to the school. That's my latest update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 You could send him over to freerice.com and have him practice vocab, earning maybe five bowls about three times per week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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