Skipping Logic in fifth grade

[Critterfixer]

Yes, I plan to do Logic, but I really, really, REALLY think I'll be wasting my time with critical thinking curricula. I'm seeing the WTM recs of three hours per week on Logic puzzles, and just shaking my head.

 

Somebody convince me that this is worthwhile, because I'm just not seeing it. I keep thinking I'd be much better served by devoting those three hours per week to discussing literature, extra grammar and extra word problems in math, and saving Logic until they are in 7th or 8th grade. 

Is this reasonable? Or am I missing the point of beginning logic puzzles and such?

 

Edit: I guess the clearer question would be if critical thinking books, such as the recs in TWTM are particularly useful in preparing a student for formal logic?

Compared to say, spending the additional 3 hours a week on Latin translation, for instance? or the above ideas about lit, grammar, math, etc.

[Saddlemomma]

Learning Latin is also considered an exercise in Logic. I wouldn't worry about it too much yet.  My DD is going into 6th.  I plan to introduce her to Philosophy Adventures next year (which goes hand-in-hand with logic) rather than formal logic.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I'd skip it for 5th if I were you.  Oh, wait, I did!  :lol:

 

You're good with Latin, grammar, math problem-solving, and literature discussions.  You don't need 3 hours of logic games a week for your kid to become a good critical thinker.  And some kids aren't really developmentally equipped to do a lot of critical thinking in 5th grade anyway - I know my kid's ability to do this stuff in 6th grade is waaaaaay higher than it was in 5th.  You can get more done more quickly if you wait till they are really ready for it, I think.

[Critterfixer]

Oh, good. I was feeling like a bad WTM-er for even going there. Whew.

 

I don't think my guys are ready. Seriously. These guys were crawling around a kiddie-playground today, pouncing each other because they were being leopards. They are 10 going on 2.

They are sharp enough, but I think they are going to be an awful lot like their Mom-head, who still plays pretend. :tongue_smilie:

[redsquirrel]

I will add that the time guidelines in TWTM were not SWB's idea. The publisher wanted them in there.

 

My son spend maybe 15 mins three times a week on logic puzzles in 4th and 5th grade. He enjoyed it and couldn't believe I was counting something 'fun' as school work. I saw it as a good way to introduce him to different types of logic puzzles and their vocabulary. I think it is a good think he has had some experience with word analogies and other kind of logic puzzles.

 

I think if a kid hasn't had much time with a math program that requires abstract thought then it is a good idea. If a student is using something like SM word problems or some of the other conceptual math programs then it isn't necessary. But it might still be a good idea to at least expose the student to different ways of thinking. Some little bit of time with word and number and picture problems is a good thing.

[Critterfixer]

They are doing Saxon for math, and frankly, this is the first year they have been able to handle two step word problems. It has just taken them a long time to get to where they could make that jump. Even now, I still have to pull out manipulative and remind them to draw pictures. Thinking through things just isn't something they do naturally. There may be some intellectual laziness there, sure, but so much of it just seems to be they are just taking their time maturing. I was planning to go slowly through Saxon 6/5 this year and bringing in MM Blue Series topic work. They used to hate this and cry when they were younger, now it seems to be making a nice interlude with the last bit of 5/4 that they have to finish. 

I was thinking of spending one of those hours per week on working through Challenging Word Problems, maybe some MEP. I'm pushing here. Previously an hour of this would have been cause for tears of frustration. They have really had a hard time with abstract math concepts. 

Great at Latin, great at memorizing poetry, good readers, and both of them seem to have a real facility for manipulating shapes in their heads and building things--but word problems turn them into puddles at times.

 

 

I do agree that knowing some of the terms of logic would be useful. I wonder if there is a way that I could bring those into discussions without making it so separate from everything else? I've got a vintage logic text to study this summer, and I might go ahead and get the MP course to start working through on my own this year. Could I learn enough to start bringing it into discussion, I wonder?

 

[Reefgazer]

I'm interested in the same questions you are.  DD and I tried the WTM recs for The Critical Thinking Books this year and we had to quit.  They were so dull we both wanted to stick an ice pick through our temples to end the misery  We finally abandoned it in October.  You know that scene in Gone With The Wond when Scarlett O'Hara is on her knees on the ground saying "I'll never go hungry again"?  Well, Chloe and I were on our knees saying "We'll never use the Critical Thinking Books again".  So we've got to find some alternative to those books.  I've got Art of Argument to try next year in 7th grade, but she is wary because of the Critical Thinking experience this year, and so either way, I'm delaying Logic. 

Yes, I plan to do Logic, but I really, really, REALLY think I'll be wasting my time with critical thinking curricula. I'm seeing the WTM recs of three hours per week on Logic puzzles, and just shaking my head.

 

Somebody convince me that this is worthwhile, because I'm just not seeing it. I keep thinking I'd be much better served by devoting those three hours per week to discussing literature, extra grammar and extra word problems in math, and saving Logic until they are in 7th or 8th grade. 

Is this reasonable? Or am I missing the point of beginning logic puzzles and such?

 

Edit: I guess the clearer question would be if critical thinking books, such as the recs in TWTM are particularly useful in preparing a student for formal logic?

Compared to say, spending the additional 3 hours a week on Latin translation, for instance? or the above ideas about lit, grammar, math, etc.

 

[Lori D.]

Sure! Skip away. :)

 

However, I will just say from my own experience that doing a wide variety of critical thinking and logic puzzles, games, and activities throughout late elementary and middle school really helped our DSs develop skills in analysis, deduction, connections, problem-solving, and out-of-the-box thinking that are extremely useful for high school Math, Science, Literature, and Social Studies analysis and discussion.

 

I personally think doing ONLY the Logic recs in WTM (Red Herrings and Mind Benders) is extremely limiting, as it only develops one type of logic skill. Also, no way we spent 3 hours a week on Logic and Critical Thinking puzzles -- more like about 10-15 min/day, 3-4x/week, as a good "brain warm-up" or as a few "fun pages".

 

In the grade 5-7 range, we esp. enjoyed the Logic Liftoff and Orbiting with Logic books, Word Winks series, and Critical Thinking Activities in Pattern, Image, Logic by Seymour. Also, don't forget printable puzzles such as Sudoko, Ken-Ken, crosswords, anagrams and cryptograms. Read and try to solve minute mysteries. And play lots of great games such as Set, Scan, Mastermind, Chess, Forbidden Island, Takenoko…

 

With the exception of Dr. Funster and the the Think-A-Grams books, the Critical Thinking Press books often struck us as dull and expensive one-trick ponies...

 

Below are some more threads on Logic and the logic stage / middle school -- the first one asks exactly what you're asking here, so you may find that one esp. helpful. ;) BEST of luck, whatever you decide. Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Does anyone do 3 hours/week of Logic in logic stage? And if not, how much is proper?

Can someone educate me on Logic?

s/o from Where's the Logic thread? What if your child has never been exposed to this stuff?

Living Math equivalent for Logic?

Can you post your progression for teaching Logic?

Formal Logic fail; now what?

[madteaparty]

I went to school outside the US and did no logic whatsoever. I scored high enough on the LSAT to get into a top 10 law school.

If I do logic with DS in 5th, it will be only because in 8th he takes a test to see if he can gain admission to super selective public high schools.

[ChrissySC]

I am in the seventh'ish grade and ending the logic stage with the 2nd child.  I see the difference.  We did use logic workbooks and critical thinking subject material.  Wow, I can see the difference in conversation and reaction to life.  For example, I suggested a Nano for my music lover.  I had to sit through the entire media-hype lecture which detailed product advertising persuasiveness versus actual product quality and function.  Really?  Fine, never mind!

 

So, yes!  It is the entire evolution of thinking and response to stimuli, eg advertising, news, that changes.  If you do nothing but use Logic Countdown workbooks or read the Fallacy Detective, do it.  It does not have to be a formal and traditional subject.  Something like puzzles will do the same thing to encourage the brain to make different connections with information.  This is really needed in math - and a benefit in history and science.

[Walking-Iris]

If you're thinking of the Critical Thinking Press books that are mainly just puzzle type books, then yes you can skip those.

 

We have tried Building Thinking Skills and Mind Benders. We've also had some other CTP books, Editor In Chief and What Would You Do (supposed to be "ethics" but more like a waste of paper.) I'm not a big fan.

 

I do have some math logic type ebooks from Scholastic (and other math activity books) that serve that purpose better. But I consider that math! 

 

We've never been really interested in the BTS books. My oldest would just zoom through the workbook (and they are pricey workbooks), and I failed to see the point of it honestly. 

 

I think it may be best to wait until you see some maturity in your child, and then add some actual philosophy and logic later. 

 

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/listing/2681389078897?r=1&cm_mmc=GooglePLA-_-TextBook_NotInStock_75Up-_-Q000000633-_-2681389078897

 

I bought this text recently, to teach myself first, because I haven't found anything written for children that I like. I may try the two Critical Thinking books from CTP later. But I don't have high hopes for it. I'm not sure if Art of Argument will be a good choice for us though.

 

I also like Matthew Lipman's books and the Philosophy for Children series, even though the teacher's guides are expensive. That's the main turn-off.

 

As far as problem solving, you can cover that in math and the other subjects usually. As well as play plenty of games. Science labs (scientific method) help with logic thinking as well. 

 

I make a distinction between math type logic skills (BTS, chess, sudoku, programming, statistics, etc) and philosophy type logic (analogies, fallacies, ethics etc).

 

You don't necessarily *need* the Critical Thinking Press books for any of those. There are various apps that I feel cover this well.....Cut The Rope, Where's My Water, and various puzzle type apps. 

 

I think these are all worthwhile activities. And the WTM recs alone, I agree, are limiting, and somewhat of a biased nature. But it's completely doable to add logic without it taking time away from learning your basic subjects. Just find where the logic is (already) in those subjects, rather than make it an entirely separate pursuit.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I am in the seventh'ish grade and ending the logic stage with the 2nd child.  I see the difference.  We did use logic workbooks and critical thinking subject material.  Wow, I can see the difference in conversation and reaction to life.  For example, I suggested a Nano for my music lover.  I had to sit through the entire media-hype lecture which detailed product advertising persuasiveness versus actual product quality and function.  Really?  Fine, never mind!

 

So, yes!  It is the entire evolution of thinking and response to stimuli, eg advertising, news, that changes.  If you do nothing but use Logic Countdown workbooks or read the Fallacy Detective, do it.  It does not have to be a formal and traditional subject.  Something like puzzles will do the same thing to encourage the brain to make different connections with information.  This is really needed in math - and a benefit in history and science.

 

I totally agree with you about the value, but I think a kid who is doing a strong problem-solving based math program will get the same benefits.  I'm pretty liberal about what I throw into that category, and logic workbooks definitely count, but here using things like Zaccaro's Ten Things Future mathemeticians should know but are rarely taught and Becoming a Problem Solving Genius were a great way to build those skills.  Studying statistics and mathematical/numerical fallacies is good.  The Building Thinking Skills and Critical Thinking books made us want to stick a fork in our eyeballs, too.

 

I also think the whole issue of judging media, advertising etc. is also critically important, but I don't necessarily categorize it as Logic - meaning, the study of formal argument structure - but more as psychology/metacognition - understanding how minds work, your own and other people's, and how they can be fooled.  My kids will get robust coverage of metacognition and social psychology throughout their school years, as well as an actual class in high school, to help meet those goals.

 

So I think saying "Yes, ok, skip Logic (meaning the specific WTM recs) in 5th grade" isn't the same as saying this isn't important or you should never do it, KWIM?  Just to be clear about my position, if I wasn't!

 

I am a big advocate about letting go of guilt for not doing things you think you should b/c you read it in a book or from posters here, though.  ;)  :)

[Luckymama]

Dd has never studied logic formally. She gets enough through her various AoPS books and programming/robotics. And by being the youngest in a family of dinner table "talkers" :lol:

 

I expect someday she'll be exposed to the philosophical-type logical arguments etc. I'm not worried about it now as she has so many other things to study :)

[ChrissySC]

Oh yes, totally agree with a poster above.  There are several different "thinking" modes that are often grouped into what we call "logic".  Teach them to think.  I would say that sums it up well.  Do it how you want and feel it best serves your child/student.

 

Just do something.  LOL

[boscopup]

I have no plans for logic workbooks in 5th. My son is using AoPS, so plenty of thinking there. We'll do some type of logic down the road (like Fallacy Detective or something along those lines), but for 5th - nope.

 

He has some Grid Perplexors books that he does when he feels like it. I don't assign them. I also have those Logic Liftoff books, though he didn't like them.

[Haiku]

I think three hours a week is ridiculous overkill. When my dd was in 5th grade, she spent about 20 minutes, 3 days a week, on logic puzzles. Honestly, there aren't enough logic puzzle books out there for her to spend 126 hours working through them. Or maybe it's just that I am not willing to hunt for and spend money on increasingly obscure or repetitive books just for the sake of saying she put the time in.

 

This year, in 6th grade, she spends about 20 minutes twice a week on logic puzzles. She also took an online programming class, which I counted as logic. And she studies Latin. Next year, in 7th, she'll do Art of Argument.

[Pen]

We did not spend that sort of time on logic workbook type activities. However, playing chess, Mastermind, etc. have been ways that 'logic' has been around just for fun, especially during winter when days are short and outdoors not as beckoning. The problem tends not to be that my son does not want to do it, he would probably spend hours on chess daily if he could, but  I have less tolerance and time for it by far than he would like. I agree with doing it when the children seem at a readiness stage for it. 

[Critterfixer]

Well, I feel better about delaying it for sure. 

 

There is something else I wanted to add. My own personal experience with "critical thinking" things is probably coloring my opinion of the recommendations. I grew up with a family that really valued "quick wits." We had a lot of game players: chess, checkers, Scrabble, cards. I was good at none of that. And there was always the stigma of "You're so smart, so why can't you do this?" 

I can't. I can't think three moves ahead, or figure out the strategy to get me a good word score, and I really can't tell what cards someone else might have.

Part of me sees that it took me many, many years to even appreciate that my hands were as important to my problem solving as my head was. I really understand the value of diagramming, of building models, of just holding something in your hands and feeling how it fits together. That was not valued. 

I've got at least one child who has that same hands-on nature, and I'd like to make sure I don't ever put him through the suffering of thinking that somehow because he can't play some game, or solve some word-puzzle, that he isn't capable of deeply understanding how something works.

 

Not that quick wits wouldn't have saved me a good deal of pain...but I'm not big on the fun aspect of logic puzzles. Just saying.

I like the formal logic stuff I've gotten to look at so far. That doesn't feel like "gotcha" work. You can almost get your hands around it. So we are planning on doing formal logic when it's time.

[Walking-Iris]

Well, I feel better about delaying it for sure. 

 

There is something else I wanted to add. My own personal experience with "critical thinking" things is probably coloring my opinion of the recommendations. I grew up with a family that really valued "quick wits." We had a lot of game players: chess, checkers, Scrabble, cards. I was good at none of that. And there was always the stigma of "You're so smart, so why can't you do this?" 

I can't. I can't think three moves ahead, or figure out the strategy to get me a good word score, and I really can't tell what cards someone else might have.

Part of me sees that it took me many, many years to even appreciate that my hands were as important to my problem solving as my head was. I really understand the value of diagramming, of building models, of just holding something in your hands and feeling how it fits together. That was not valued. 

I've got at least one child who has that same hands-on nature, and I'd like to make sure I don't ever put him through the suffering of thinking that somehow because he can't play some game, or solve some word-puzzle, that he isn't capable of deeply understanding how something works.

 

Not that quick wits wouldn't have saved me a good deal of pain...but I'm not big on the fun aspect of logic puzzles. Just saying.

I like the formal logic stuff I've gotten to look at so far. That doesn't feel like "gotcha" work. You can almost get your hands around it. So we are planning on doing formal logic when it's time.

 

I understand. I don't particularly like board games or card games. I can play them, but for me, I'd rather watch grass grow than sit and play a game. My kids are somewhat similar. We have the games, because I feel like I have to, but they play them very rarely.

 

What you said about hands-on is definitely my way of thinking as well. Building with Legos, working with a kit, sewing, knitting, gardening, carpentry, and so on. Those activities are logic as well. 

 

I would totally encourage you to think of other ways to do logic beside the games and puzzle workbooks. I feel nearly any aspect of life has the opportunity to help a child critically think through it. 

 

If you don't like and don't want to play Sudoku...I seriously doubt there would be any harm in skipping things like that. The goal is to learn how to think deeply about something, like you said, not to get proficient at  a game.

 

I know people who can play games, but couldn't "logic" their way out of a paper bag.

[Critterfixer]

Couple of Logic projects I'm considering for the guys-building a few siege machines from scratch. The DH (engineer) is pleased with that. He also has a plan to take out our low water crossing and replace it with culvert and pipe, and then there is the driveway to rebuild and drainage ditch to cut. Lot of math in figuring that, as well as plenty of hard work. He wants to get the boys in on that project and I figure that's a pretty good exercise in the logical application of math to everyday work. (Everyday work for an engineer anyway!)

He also volunteered to teach chess.

 

I'm going to focus on applying logic to the natural sciences. We will probably introduce use of a dichotomous key in botany, and I can show them how understanding what a plant needs to grow helps you know where to find it. I might get into a little A and P when it comes to animals, and my Dad can show them how to find the height of a tree with trig. 

 

I think those activities will be hands-on enough for all of us to get into, and will be helpful in developing the idea of reasoning through problems. 

And I'll be studying formal logic this fall, which may give me more ideas for how to present some of the language of logic into their lives, because that, to me, seemed to be the best argument for beginning logic at the fifth grade.