AoPS with just average math student

[ElaineJ]

I'm planning out math for my ds who is entering high school this fall. We have been using AoPS the past 2 years, for pre-algebra and then this year for Algebra 1 (first half of book, according to my understanding, right?) I love the curriculum because I feel like it really stretches him and builds his fundamental understanding of math in a way the other materials I've looked at don't. Here is the dilemma: he is an average math student, and as I look around the web for help, it seems like most people using this curriculum have kids who range between advanced and math genius. What usually happens with our lessons is that he watches the video on line, does the practice problems and then goes over the explanations in the lessons, and then goes on to do the other problem sets. He will typically do about 1/3 to 1/2 of the problem sets incorrectly, and we go back and rework them until they are all correct and we have a basic understanding of the material presented. This has worked fine for us and I feel like he is learning at a good pace. As I am putting together high school plans, though, and thinking about the reality of a permanent grade on a transcript, this scares me a bit. I couldn't honestly give him more than a "C" on this algebra class, but I know that if he were using Life of Fred (which we use as a supplement) he would be getting an A+. He's got to carry his transcript around with him for the rest of his life. So I guess my questions are:

Are any of you with average math students using AoPS?

How do you deal with the grading?

Should I just change to a curriculum which would be easier for him next year, even though he wouldn't be getting as much out of the experience?

 

Thanks for your input!

Elaine

[Dmmetler]

Could you use AOPS to teach, but use tests that cover the same topics from another series, and grade based mostly on the tests?

[ElaineJ]

Could you use AOPS to teach, but use tests that cover the same topics from another series, and grade based mostly on the tests?

 

I guess that would be a good option. Do have suggestions of curriculums that might dovetail better with AoPS than others?

Thanks,

Elaine

[lewelma]

What is your grading scale?  Perhaps with AoPS, 80% is an A?  I know that in the intermediate number theory class my son was told that he should always have at least 1 problem he cannot do, or he is in a class that is too easy (and it looks to us like they always put an impossible problem into each challenge set).  There are only 10 problems per week. So in my book, if my son can get 8 out of 10, he deserves an A.  And I think that AoPS agrees with me because ds gets into 'blue' (the top level) with around 75%.

 

Another thing I have done when we first started AoPS, is let him learn with AoPS but then made the tests using standard algebra problems from Jacobs.  Then I could expect 95% and up to be an A.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Julie of KY]

Change your grading scale.

 

It sounds like AoPS is working for you. Don't penalize the student for struggling through problem sets in the process of learning. Test what he's learned and if he does well, reward him. Also I've heard staff from AoPS say that an "A" grade is often getting 70-80% of regular end of chapter problems and 1/3-1/2 of the challenge sets.

[regentrude]

You can design a test that tests what an average student would learn in an average algebra class and base the grade on this.

I see no reason to penalize the student for using the harder, more challenging program.

 

I write my own tests, using problems from AoPS. I make sure that the problems hit the main concepts, but do not include time consuming challenge problems.

I never grade the daily practice: this is for learning. I do not penalize a student for making mistakes while learning new concepts. I only give a comprehensive final at the end of the semester.

[MarkT]

I guess that would be a good option. Do have suggestions of curriculums that might dovetail better with AoPS than others?

 

 

I don't look at Math as the content of the text book but in the content of the topics being covered. For example, all Algebra 1 books cover Quadratic Equations.  An average Algebra student should be able to answer most of the questions on that topic. That being said.  Glencoe has online (appears to be free) chapter tests for review, just match to whatever the topic you are covering in the AoPS.   (AoPS text is fairly non-standard so you may have find supplemental material to teach topics that are typically covered in most decent state standard Algebra 1 classes). 

 

This way you could do a "pure" grading skill and see where your child actually matches up with typical students.

 

  Google "algebra 1 chapter tests glencoe"

 

 Google "AMSCO Algebra 1"  for an example NYS standard text.

 

  Other home school texts may have inexpensive test booklets.  I have used Saxon test booklets but they are unique and only match Saxon lesson plans.

 

 

[ElaineJ]

Thanks for the encouragement, ladies! I really would like to keep him with AoPS. We've just never used grades before, so this whole grading for a transcript thing makes me nervous. I just want whatever grade I give him to be legitimate, you know? That is very helpful to hear that the AoPS people say an 80% would be an A.

Elaine

[JanetC]

The videos aren't available after algebra 1, so be aware of that if he can't learn directly from the text and you can't teach it.

[Luckymama]

How does he do on the review problems? Does he still get 1/3 to 1/2 of those problems incorrect?

[kiana]

I would get a standard Algebra 1 end-of-course exam, look over it so that you know when your student has finished the material, and use that instead. I agree that a student should not be penalized grade-wise for doing a more difficult course.

[MarkT]

 That is very helpful to hear that the AoPS people say an 80% would be an A.

 

 

There is no data to support that claim.

 

[MarkT]

I would get a standard Algebra 1 end-of-course exam, look over it so that you know when your student has finished the material, and use that instead. I agree that a student should not be penalized grade-wise for doing a more difficult course.

 

I totally agree with your suggestion (and end of year exams are fairly easy to come by) but wouldn't you want to have chapter tests or similar to see how the student was progressing. The final exam grade should not be a surprise.

 

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

 

 

• How are grades determined?

  Grades are primarily determined by student performance on the homework. We take a holistic approach to grading; we don't have strict percentage levels for grades. Our courses are structured much like courses at top-tier colleges in that the assignments are extremely challenging, so students can earn high grades with a lower percentage correct than they would need in less rigorous classes.

https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/School/faq.php#howgradesmade

 

I was once told that the student is not expected to get ANY of the challenging problems right. Good for them if they do. 

Now the review problems, if they hit 80% of them, then it's an A. Or another method would be, can the student do the review problem on their own a week after seeing them? With that method (which I chose for us), the student gets to learn with the review problems, and then gets to show mastery a week later in a test environment on the same problems. And that's an approach many schools do. They don't present new problems to the students (or maybe just one new problem), but tests are done on problems already seen in class. 

[kiana]

I totally agree with your suggestion (and end of year exams are fairly easy to come by) but wouldn't you want to have chapter tests or similar to see how the student was progressing. The final exam grade should not be a surprise.

 

 

 

I wouldn't feel it necessary, but if I were unsure about my ability to assess based on the level of comprehension shown in the daily work, I would simply buy an old copy of something like Lial's Algebra and use the chapter tests from there as soon as I felt the relevant material had been covered.

 

[Tattarrattat]

What is your grading scale?  Perhaps with AoPS, 80% is an A?  I know that in the intermediate number theory class my son was told that he should always have at least 1 problem he cannot do, or he is in a class that is too easy (and it looks to us like they always put an impossible problem into each challenge set).  There are only 10 problems per week. So in my book, if my son can get 8 out of 10, he deserves an A.  And I think that AoPS agrees with me because ds gets into 'blue' (the top level) with around 75%.

 

Another thing I have done when we first started AoPS, is let him learn with AoPS but then made the tests using standard algebra problems from Jacobs.  Then I could expect 95% and up to be an A.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

Ruth, in case you're not aware of this, for homework from AoPS online classes, the proof problems are weighted three times as heavily as the short answer ones. 

[regentrude]

Now the review problems, if they hit 80% of them, then it's an A. Or another method would be, can the student do the review problem on their own a week after seeing them? With that method (which I chose for us), the student gets to learn with the review problems, and then gets to show mastery a week later in a test environment on the same problems. And that's an approach many schools do. They don't present new problems to the students (or maybe just one new problem), but tests are done on problems already seen in class. 

 

And this I consider fundamentally flawed, because what is tested is memory and not mathematical thinking.

Of course the problems should be similar, using the same concepts, as practice problems the student has seen before. Using the identical problems only a week later, however, does not test mathematics mastery, but rewards students for memorizing. (Not to mention that a test after a week is really pretty useless as it does not test long term retention which, in math, is absolutely necessary.)

Now, of course, using the identical problems after several months at the end of the semester in a comprehensive final would not be problematic, since no student will have the problems memorized for that long.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

And this I consider fundamentally flawed, because what is tested is memory and not mathematical thinking.

Of course the problems should be similar, using the same concepts, as practice problems the student has seen before. Using the identical problems only a week later, however, does not test mathematics mastery, but rewards students for memorizing. (Not to mention that a test after a week is really pretty useless as it does not test long term retention which, in math, is absolutely necessary.)

Now, of course, using the identical problems after several months at the end of the semester in a comprehensive final would not be problematic, since no student will have the problems memorized for that long.

 

I'm partially in agreement with you. 

Based on myself and my own students, a week is long enough to avoid pure memorization. The following day is not. I can definitely see it when my daughter does an exercise by memorization, or if she's thinking it through. For us, a week is long enough. For others it might very well not be. 

So *we* do a chapter test a week after the end of the chapter. And a semester test where I pick and choose from among the review exercises that we covered. That, plus the daily work, does give me a fair idea of what my students are doing.

 

YMMV

[ElaineJ]

Thanks again, all! This is a very helpful conversation for me. Now I'm thinking that it would definitely be good for me to access a second curriculum and make sure we are really getting the essentials of the course. I am not a "math oriented person myself, so I lack some confidence in assessing this area.

 

The algebra videos have been sooooo helpful to us. Do anyone know if they are planning to continue making them to accompany the rest of the book?

 

Elaine

[Julie in MN]

I might email AOPS and get an "official" answer.  Then, if you like their grading scale suggestions, I'd print out their email reply and put it in my records.  It would be all official and tidy then, and I wouldn't worry any more.

 

Julie

[EndOfOrdinary]

With my son, we use the summary problems at the end of the chapter. Half become a study guide and the other half become the test. He gets two challenge extra credit problems each worth five points. The study guide is often like a pre-test. He can see what he really knows, and what is still fuzzy. After he has tried himself, then used the text open book, and still is having trouble he can ask me. Often times, if a certain type of problem is still not clicking, he will go back and rework that section.

 

This process happens over a week. Then he takes the test. At that point he has had plenty of time to self advocate. In my opinion that is a major skill set he is having to take away from the challenging curriculum.

[kroe1]

Quite frankly, when I looked at AoPS, I could not see much difference between it and A Beka or any of a myriad of other publishers. But, honestly, I only looked at the prealgebra and intermediate algebra books for that publisher. (I am not recommending A Beka, by the way, just pointing out the similarities.)

 

For my own kiddos, it has been best to stick with the publisher's recommendation for grading, i.e. 94-100 A. Then I keep the kiddos at a level where they make high "B's" and low "A's". This seems to be the magic point where challenge doesn't destroy confidence. I am sure all kiddos are different. It is not the publisher so much as the level of instruction, in my opinion.