What to do when WWS is too difficult?

[Penelope]

I actually disagree with that. I think that, when one is learning new skills, you teach them via material a student is already comfortable with so that they are focusing on learning one new thing, not struggling to integrate several new, challenging things. Practicing old skills is the time, to me, to up the challenge level in another aspect of the situation.

 

I think you are saying the same thing I did. I was suggesting to continue to work on the skill of reading while using something else for writing. NOT to continue to struggle in WWS using reading that was too advanced right now.

 

 

As far as what most public schools require students to read in fifth and sixth grade, I'm not sure. I have a book of short stories intended for middle school that includes The Necklace. I don't think of fifth grade as being middle school yet. I do remember some of what I was reading for school in fifth and sixth, and WWS seems on target to me based on that. My son at ten had no problems with reading comprehension in WWS1, except for the infamous Marie Antoinette assignment. There was trouble with vocabulary, context, and maybe writing style with that one.

 

I think I've posted this before, but in the context of TWTM with the booklists recommended for each grade and the four year history cycle, I think the selections fit for grade level for the most part. Ds knew about the Gordian knot from SOTW1 and remembered it. We had also read about the Titanic several times by that point, and most of the science topics were at least vaguely familiar. If you look at the fifth and sixth grade book lists in TWTM, they include titles by Roger Lancelyn Green, Howard Pyle, and versions of Beowulf and Dante. Of course that doesn't mean every child will be ready at the same age.

[lewelma]

I started a thread a few months ago talking about how to make WWS usable if your student could not study it independently.  There were a lot of good ideas in there that I really think will help.

 

Here is how I am teaching the material in WWS1-3. What are you doing?

 

I also want to tell the OP, that WWS1 is by far the hardest of the 3 (relative to age of the the child) because it is just more esoteric than levels 2 and 3.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Edited to avoid derail.

 

OP, if WWS isn't working, it isn't working. There have been times we put it aside for various reasons, but we always came back. Your experience may well be different. I hope you find the path that works for you. There are so many paths leading to lots of good places. I wish you the best in finding yours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

Rereading the thread lewelma linked, I was reminded that WWS seems very parts-to-whole. Aside from reading level, I wonder if this factor might be part of the issue. It would be the biggest stumbling block about WWS for my 5th grader.

[Jenny in GA]

 

I am pretty sure there were things my son didn't completely understand when he read "The Necklace" but he did seem able pick up a whole lot from context. I think he asked about a couple of the french words. It is difficult to remember because it was 2 years ago. The fact that I don't remember it that well bodes well. It means he did it with little difficulty. Now, the Marie Antoinette assignment I remember Very Well :lol:

 

When I asked him he just remembered liking the story.

.

Just as an intereresting point - "The Necklace" keeps coming up again and again, but actually that was not a selection that my daughter struggled with.

 

For the most part, it was the non-fiction selections that were incomphresensible to her. I remember a selection about an octopus, one about stars or planets or something, and a couple history ones. Plus that one about soldiers at war fighting and imagining that a saint appearing and won the battle for them - ugh, that one I could barely understand myself!

 

OTOH, when we did the assignments for Rikki Tikki Tavi and Anne of Green gables and, yes, even The Necklace, there were no problems and we both enjoyed WWS quite a bit.

[Haiku]

We did short stories in 8th grade when I was in school, in "advanced" English. That is when I read The Necklace, The Tell-Tale Heart, The Gift of the Magi, The ... Jumping Frog, etc. I think there are 5th graders who could easily read these stories. I think there are more who would struggle with them. In general, I think the selections in WWS are inappropriate for a program that is supposed to be an immediate follow-up to WWE.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Rereading the thread lewelma linked, I was reminded that WWS seems very parts-to-whole. Aside from reading level, I wonder if this factor might be part of the issue. It would be the biggest stumbling block about WWS for my 5th grader.

This is definitely our biggest challenge. My dd hates the step-by-step approach. She much prefers to just write a narration rather than list events and synthesize them into the final product. I gave up making her follow the instructions to a tee and just let her write. She may go over the 4 sentence cap but when her narrations are beautiful and well written, it's an acceptable trade off.

[TracyP]

This is definitely our biggest challenge. My dd hates the step-by-step approach. She much prefers to just write a narration rather than list events and synthesize them into the final product. I gave up making her follow the instructions to a tee and just let her write. She may go over the 4 sentence cap but when her narrations are beautiful and well written, it's an acceptable trade off.

 

Again, I agree. I tried to do narrations the WWS way for one lesson. That was a major fail, so I told her to just freewrite her narration. Bingo! A great narration.

 

___________

 

 

Hmmm, this thread makes me realize how heavily I tweak WWS. This is good for me - especially when it comes to recommending this program to others. I guess I am kind of a groupie.  :tongue_smilie:  This has been by far our best writing year. DD and I have learned so much from WWS. I have to temper that enthusiasm with the knowledge that I am not using a lot of it as written. I just go with the flow of what works, so I don't always realize how much I am tweaking. Because of that, this conversation has been enlightening. And frustrating. ;) Mostly enlightening. :)

 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Hmmm, this thread makes me realize how heavily I tweak WWS. This is good for me - especially when it comes to recommending this program to others. I guess I am kind of a groupie.  :tongue_smilie:  This has been by far our best writing year. DD and I have learned so much from WWS. I have to temper that enthusiasm with the knowledge that I am not using a lot of it as written. I just go with the flow of what works, so I don't always realize how much I am tweaking. Because of that, this conversation has been enlightening. And frustrating. ;) Mostly enlightening. :)

 

Same here. I have come to realize that I am using WWS as more of a writing guide and less as a writing "program." I guess it is my way of having my hand held by SWB as part of the 80% mentioned earlier.

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

In case anyone is wondering. . .

 

In WWS2, weeks 8 and 9 involve an assignment that uses a topic of the student's own choosing. Again in weeks 15, 21, 25, 34-36.  (I just did a quick glance, so I might have missed one.)

 

It's my understanding WWS3 gives even more open assignments, so there seems to be a gradual transitioning.

 

Flipping through the book again reminded me why we like it so much. For the most part we find the topics interesting. (Even Marie Antoinette. We actually have fond memories of that one. :ph34r: )

 

To be absolutely clear: I am not trying to convince anyone to use the program, or judging those who don't.  I was just flipping through the book while Lily was working on her assignment and was surprised by how many weeks the topics are to be chosen by the student. I never actually counted before. I am posting the information in case someone reading the thread is trying to decide about using the program. Hopefully that will give a little more info about how it is arranged.

 

I think we all agree it's not for everyone! :)

 

 

 

[DianeW88]

I would really like to hear answers to this as well. Specifically, I'm curious if "most" 6-7 graders are reading excerpts and short stories like this in school, because if that is "the norm" ... well, then I am totally out of touch, and need to adjust my expectations accordingly. I think about my kids' friends, and the students I had when I worked as a school music specialist years ago, and I just don't see it. But I don't know, as I never taught LA.

 

Would love to hear perspectives especially from people who have more public school experience.

 

I think that depends on how old you are.  I was in sixth grade in 1975-1976, and yes, we read all of those selections...in fourth and fifth grade.  Actually, we read "The Jumping Frog..." in third.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

But, like I said, I am really curious what of others' experiences and what the current-day reality and expectation is. Surely all middle schoolers aren't all expected to do school assignments that are on a tenth grade level and higher -- or are they???

 

I think that depends on how old you are.  I was in sixth grade in 1975-1976, and yes, we read all of those selections...in fourth and fifth grade.  Actually, we read "The Jumping Frog..." in third.

I think it also depends on where you live and the local schools. My reality is that I am usually happy to spend time with the best students attending the best of our local schools--it keeps me from falling into a homeschool complacency. Just yesterday we had such an interaction, and I was reminded of the two above posts.

 

(I say the best students from the best schools, as opposed to average students from average schools, because that's where I set my bar for comparison. Obviously everyone's benchmark will be different. For the record, these students are far from stressed-out basket cases. They are happy, intelligent, active, and engaged in life--and they are great with time-management. It gives me reason for great pause and consideration about exactly what it is that I am offering in my study, as opposed to what is being offered in the best of the brick-and-mortar schools down the way. That's a topic for another thread, but I do think it is relevant to the question Jenny in GA asked.)

[Chrysalis Academy]

I just wanted to clairfy a couple of things I think I muddled in this conversation:  first, I was the one who brought up The Necklace, not the OP.  I was trying to use it as an example of a story that a child might be able to read and comprehend, but may struggle with interpreting/analyzing because they might not have the real-world or context knowledge to understand the value of the amounts of money, how loans and interest work, etc.  I think other passages in WWS are like that, too.  It seemed like there was a suggestion that all one needed to do was remediate reading comprehension, and I was just trying to point out that I think there might be more to "struggling with the passages" than that in some cases.  Once I explained the context, my dd was able to understand the story.   Again, WWS seems to involve, for most kids, a much higher level of parent/teacher invovlement than you might think if you just read the TM.

 

The second thing I wanted to clarify is that WWS actually "worked" fine for us.  My dd did all the lessons (up to the point we dropped it, in the research section, which I decided to teach on my own using different topics). and she didn't struggle with the lessons.  It was just a slog, a joyless slog, just like SWB herself described that it might be for a kids who is a good/natural writer and likes to write.  It was a bad fit for my dd's style, which is much more whole-to-parts.  She's such a compliant kid, she didn't actually complain about it, but there was such a slump to her shoulders and a joyless cloud descending whenever I pulled it out, I decided it just wasn't worth it.  For us.

 

And again, the reason I pipe up in these threads was that *I* had such a case of SWB hero-worship that I wanted WWS to work for us sooooo badly that I persisted with it even after it was clear that it wasn't the best fit.  I just hope to help others who realize it isn't a good fit and who might feel bad about this - bad about themselves as teachers or their kids as writers - to avoid some of the guilt and angst I felt about dropping it as our primary writing program.  That's all.  :)

[Haiku]

The second thing I wanted to clarify is that WWS actually "worked" fine for us.  My dd did all the lessons (up to the point we dropped it, in the research section, which I decided to teach on my own using different topics). and she didn't struggle with the lessons.  It was just a slog, a joyless slog, just like SWB herself described that it might be for a kids who is a good/natural writer and likes to write. 

 

Same here. My dd was able to handle the material, but she didn't enjoy it and took to sighing, fiddling, and time-wasting while writing in a way that we had never experienced before. I think the material was a decent level for my voracious-reader, writing-adept child, but I think that for kids who aren't excelled in reading and already competent writers, WWS is just too hard. And my dd hated the reading selections.

[EKS]

Coming in late here, but...

 

I modified WWS1 when we used it so that it would work for my son.  I did the lessons with him and read all of the passages aloud to him.  Yes, he could have read them himself, but I decided that at that point and with that resource, I wanted to focus on writing, not reading.

[redsquirrel]

My son also felt that lots of WWS1 was a slog. But, to be fair, he thought that about almost everything at that age. I don't think that changing programs would have changed much about his attitude. In 6th grade everything got a whole lot harder at our house. I raised my expectations and increased the workload in general. And I tend to the 'pull up your socks' school of things. If something is a total mismatch then of course we are going to change. But, if his argument was Thiiiiiiisssss issss haaaaarrrd, but I can see that what is being asked is totally within his grasp then he's just going to have to pull up his socks. I am NOT saying that those of you who found WWS1 not to be the right program for your kid are pushovers or anything. I just want to be honest that there was occasional gnashing of teeth and rending of garments, but that wasn't unusual with him at that age about a lot of things. It passed.

 

And, now that we are beta'ing WWS3 I can see that he has grown so much. This was a kid who literally burst into tears the first time WWS1 gave him a word limit...was it 75 words? Something like that. In WWS2 he got assigned 250 word minimum and he was totally unphased and claimed that it was easy.

 

WWS1 is difficult. And for some kids it isn't the right program. But it is also like learning a new instrument. Before you can start making music you have to play a lot of scales and learn to play some seemingly simple songs that turn out to be devilishly difficult. But, once you get some of those skills learned other things come more easily.

 

I also think after being in the midst of puberty brain fog (my son's not my own, lol) for some kids or families, a very directed writing program is a lifesaver. He doesn't have to think about a bunch of stuff, he just has to lean into the program and read. the. directions. If he does that and applies a few brain cells he can get through the work. That made WWS2 work for us very well in 7th grade.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

 

I also think after being in the midst of puberty brain fog (my son's not my own, lol) for some kids or families, a very directed writing program is a lifesaver.

 

I could relate to so much of your post, but this last bit was especially true. For my daughter, once puberty hit there was such an increased need for independence that student directed programs became gifts from the gods.

[JoJosMom]

Susan Wise Bauer, on 17 Aug 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

 

The more intuitive and natural your young writer is, the more they'll hate WWS. It is absolutely the wrong choice for a kid who loves writing. I call it my "Engineer's Guide to Writing." It was constructed with the non-intuitive, "I can't figure this out!" weeping writer in mind. *Those* were the kids who seemed to me to be totally unserved by existing writing programs.

 

Alte Veste Academy, thank you for posting the above.

 

I've not read this quote before, and it has now helped release me from the "But I'm not following SWB's program and she's so awesome" guilt that I've been carrying around.

 

It was just a slog, a joyless slog, just like SWB herself described that it might be for a kids who is a good/natural writer and likes to write. It was a bad fit for my dd's style, which is much more whole-to-parts. She's such a compliant kid, she didn't actually complain about it, but there was such a slump to her shoulders and a joyless cloud descending whenever I pulled it out, I decided it just wasn't worth it. For us.

 

 

 

:iagree: This was us, too.

 

This thread has been a great reminder that great curricula don't work for every great child.  And that's okay.  Thanks, OP.

 

[Jenny in GA]

Hi Everybody, this is the OP again.

 

I just wanted to thank everybody. The responses have been very helpful. After much thought, I have decided to work with her on the WWS lessons about two-level outline, then start helping her do that with her History and science. I also ordered ... A book mentioned earlier by Maxwell, I think, and will download SWB's audio lecture later this week as well. Thanks for all the tips and support!

 

OP

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Hi Everybody, this is the OP again.

 

I just wanted to thank everybody. The responses have been very helpful. After much thought, I have decided to work with her on the WWS lessons about two-level outline, then start helping her do that with her History and science. I also ordered ... A book mentioned earlier by Maxwell, I think, and will download SWB's audio lecture later this week as well. Thanks for all the tips and support!

 

OP

 

That sounds like a great plan! I'm so glad you updated us. I've been wondering what you decided.

[dori123]

Susan Wise Bauer, on 17 Aug 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

 

The more intuitive and natural your young writer is, the more they'll hate WWS. It is absolutely the wrong choice for a kid who loves writing. I call it my "Engineer's Guide to Writing." It was constructed with the non-intuitive, "I can't figure this out!" weeping writer in mind. *Those* were the kids who seemed to me to be totally unserved by existing writing programs.

 

Alte Veste Academy, thank you for posting the above.

 

I've not read this quote before, and it has now helped release me from the "But I'm not following SWB's program and she's so awesome" guilt that I've been carrying around.

 

 

:iagree: This was us, too.

 

This thread has been a great reminder that great curricula don't work for every great child.  And that's okay.  Thanks, OP.

 

 

 

[dori123]

Susan Wise Bauer, on 17 Aug 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

 

The more intuitive and natural your young writer is, the more they'll hate WWS. It is absolutely the wrong choice for a kid who loves writing. I call it my "Engineer's Guide to Writing." It was constructed with the non-intuitive, "I can't figure this out!" weeping writer in mind. *Those* were the kids who seemed to me to be totally unserved by existing writing programs.

 

Alte Veste Academy, thank you for posting the above.

 

Old topic but OMG -- Thank you so very much for this quote, and for liberating me from SWB as well. I just couldn't figure out what we were doing wrong with WWE3/WWS1; why it felt so tedious. My kids love to read and write, but get so very bored regurgitating summaries. And honestly, I prefer they practice crafting their opinions about topics and themes -- this is where voice and strong writing come from.

 

I kept thinking I was missing something, the way the hive gushes about this series. I think my problem is simply that my kids are natural writers who like to explore their own thoughts rather than summarize.

 

This quote made my day. : ) 

 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Oh, look! A WWS thread revival!  :boxing_smiley:

 

  ;)

 

  :cheers2:

Edited October 6, 2016 by Woodland Mist Academy

[Miss Tick]

 

:cheers2:

Handy timing for me. Apparently I read it way back when, but this is week 15 of actually doing the program, so my take-aways are more concrete this time!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Handy timing for me. Apparently I read it way back when, but this is week 15 of actually doing the program, so my take-aways are more concrete this time!

 

It's sometimes good to revisit old threads, isn't it? We are long past our WWS days, but it's still interesting to read through the threads. I have such fond memories of those discussions. I still remember the angst, but mostly I remember being glad I wasn't alone in it, even if we were all taking different paths...

Edited October 6, 2016 by Woodland Mist Academy