Frustrated with Language Arts

[sahmoffour]

We recently switched to homeschooling over Christmas break. My oldest son is in Grade 6, he just turned 12 yrs old.  He's a very logical child.  For this reason, he loves math and science, hates Language Arts.  The only component he loves, is reading.  He loves adventure books, he's read Harry Potter, Warriors, and Percy Jackson.  He's an okay speller, but I need to get him a spelling program as Hake doesn't have enough.  He's extremely weak in grammar, he knows what a noun is but that's about it.  He's even weaker in writing.  I'll give him a simple 5 minute writing assignment and he'll sit at the table for an hour getting more and more frustrated and upset until I finally cave in and help him.  He says the problem is that he needs a sentence to start him off, but even when I give him a starter, his writing is extremely sloppy.  He just rushes through it and wants to get it over with.  Very short, non-descriptive sentences.  It's already becoming a daily battle.  

 

For writing, we're using Jump In.  It seemed very basic and light, so I thought it would be good for him.  I'm not sure how much "lighter" it can get than this.  For grammar we're using Hake 6, which I hate.  I don't like the set-up of it.  When asked, he tells me that he doesn't switch and he doesn't mind it, but he admitted that it's just because he doesn't want to start over in something else.  Even though we're only a week into it.  Basically he's the type of kid who just wants to get his work over with as fast as possible and will take as many shortcuts as possible to get there.

 

My daughter is 9 and in Gr.4.  She's extremely bright.  Very neat, enjoys workbook style curriculum.  I didn't know what to get for her, and was panicking a bit as I needed something, so I purchased McRuffy 4 LA.  She seems to put up with it, as she's probably used to a lot of busywork from public school, but I don't like it.  It seems like so much wasted time.  I'm not as worried about her, as she'll do well with whatever curriculum she's given, without complaints.  I have been looking around though as I think she can do better with something else that's a bit "meatier".

 

LA is not my strong point, I have a more logical mind like my oldest and don't have a creative bone in my body.  Math was my best subject in school.  So LA really makes me nervous as I'm scared I'm going to screw it up!  Also, we don't have a reading comp or literature program right now.  I read aloud to the kids, and they have their own books that they read to themselves, that they pick out.  Should I be doing more for that?

 

Any suggestions for new programs? Especially grammar and writing for my oldest?

 

ETA: The only thing my son does like about Hake Grammar and Jump In is that he can go ahead and do his work on his own without having to wait for me.  So a self-instructed program would work better for him.  He doesn't like being "taught" unless he's struggling and needs the help.

[Forgiven]

I can't respond to all of your questions, as I consider myself new to Homeschooling too (We're in our third year, and I still have no idea what I'm doing). What I do want to recommend to you, though, is MCT (Michael Clay Thompson) for Language Arts for your 4th and 6th graders. I am a lot like you in that LA was not my strong suit, I'm more logical: give me a set of rules to follow (like math) and I will follow them.

 

We had started with different LA curricula in our first year, and it was hard to help my oldest. She was in 3rd grade, and I had no idea what her book was talking about, but she did well in it. I just couldn't help her--she knew more than me. The next year, when she was in 4th, we started MCT for LA, and now I know what's going on too! It's easy to follow and puts LA into a logical explanation that I can follow. Not only have both of my oldest kids grasped the concepts of the different parts of speach, parts of sentences, phrases, and clauses, but I have too. My writing is better now. When I write a sentence into Word, and it gets underlined, letting me know that the grammar is incorrect, I can actually figure out what I did wrong and fix it now. Before I would complain and blame the darn grammar check for not working correctly. LOL

 

Anyway, MCT is definitely worth looking into. Here is a link to the website:  http://www.rfwp.com/pages/michael-clay-thompson/

 

 

As for writing, we are using IEW (http://iew.com/), but I can't attest to its success yet...

[blondeviolin]

Listen to SWB's lectures on writing. I don't have kids your kids' ages, but from the lectures, it seems like the recommendation would be to take them back in grammar (FLL 3, I believe) and writing (WWE 3 or 4?).

[TarynB]

He's even weaker in writing.  I'll give him a simple 5 minute writing assignment and he'll sit at the table for an hour getting more and more frustrated and upset until I finally cave in and help him.  He says the problem is that he needs a sentence to start him off, but even when I give him a starter, his writing is extremely sloppy.  He just rushes through it and wants to get it over with.  Very short, non-descriptive sentences.  It's already becoming a daily battle.  

Look at IEW's SWI-B.  My DS was the same as yours.  He's also a logical/analytical student who prefers efficient, no-nonsense, no-fluff materials.  The parts-to-whole checklist style of SWI-B worked well for him.  It gave him the tools and confidence to overcome the problems bolded above and progress way beyond them.  (He's now successfully working through the challenge of WWS1.)  He used the program mostly independently but I did watch the instructional videos with him so I could assist as needed.  IEW will give your DS a framework, a place to start, with specific, step by step instructions.  He won't have to think of "what" to write - it will give him the guidelines and get his thoughts clearly organized so he can get them on paper.  It teaches how to add strong verbs, descriptive words, etc.  It also has a good rep for use with reluctant writers, especially boys, and the instructor on the videos injects a bit of quirky humor that lightens the mood a bit.  (Look up the instructor, Andrew Pudewa, on YouTube to see if your kids like his presentation style.)  Don't let your son struggle for an hour over something when he just feels stuck.  IEW should get him un-stuck.

 

Also, teach him to type if he doesn't know already so that handwriting isn't a battle.  It might be slow going at first but it will make him much more efficient in the long run.

 

Set a timer for 30 minutes, and tell him that if he works diligently, when the timer goes off he's done with writing for the day.  Sometimes just knowing there's a defined endpoint will help a lot.

 

FWIW, we also tried Jump In for a while.  I believe it is solid, but it wasn't a good fit for my DS just because it was too gentle and the author's style was too chatty.  Its hard for me to articulate exactly why it didn't work but I think it was just too basic for DS and he didn't feel challenged by it.  He didn't see the point of most of the parts we tried.  Perhaps your DS feels the same and that's why he's having issues with it?   If you don't want to ditch it yet, maybe he could skip the easy intro lessons and move ahead to the harder lessons?  Instead of something gentle, maybe he needs something more challenging to feel motivated?

 

You say your DD is very bright, and if she's also a good reader, she can probably do SWI-B alongside your DS.  (I think the grade 6-8 recommendation by IEW is a bit off.)  Perhaps just require less of her and/or make her assignments shorter.  Or, I'm not familiar with McRuffy, but can you just cross out things in her daily work that are too much busywork? 

 

MCT LA materials, recommended above, are wonderful too.  We've used their grammar and vocab.  However, they aren't meant to be used independently, they work best with interaction and discussion, and they aren't at all like traditional LA materials.  So I wouldn't use MCT with a 12 year old boy who wants to work on his own and get through things quickly.

 

For grammar we're using Hake 6, which I hate.  I don't like the set-up of it.  When asked, he tells me that he doesn't switch and he doesn't mind it, but he admitted that it's just because he doesn't want to start over in something else.  Even though we're only a week into it.  Basically he's the type of kid who just wants to get his work over with as fast as possible and will take as many shortcuts as possible to get there.

 

ETA: The only thing my son does like about Hake Grammar and Jump In is that he can go ahead and do his work on his own without having to wait for me.  So a self-instructed program would work better for him.  He doesn't like being "taught" unless he's struggling and needs the help.

What don't you like about it?  I'd hate to drop something after only a week, so maybe we can advise you on how to make it work for both of you.  Or knowing specifically what you don't like might help with other suggestions.  Or if you're just really ready to toss Hake, look at Easy Grammar.  It can be done mostly independently and is efficient, worksheet-style, so he might like it.  It has much less review than Hake so maybe you'll like it better too. 

 

As a good reader, your DS probably intuitively has a decent grasp on grammar.  He just may not know the technical terms for everything.  Most grammar programs repeat heavily every year, and include a review of the basics at the beginning, so you probably don't need to back up.  Just place him at grade level in a good program that you feel comfortable with.

 

He's an okay speller, but I need to get him a spelling program as Hake doesn't have enough.

Hake is not a spelling curriculum.  You're right, if he needs work on spelling, he needs a spelling program.  I can't really recommend anything for that age but just wanted to clarify that Hake isn't meant to teach spelling.

 

The only component he loves, is reading.  He loves adventure books, he's read Harry Potter, Warriors, and Percy Jackson.

 

Also, we don't have a reading comp or literature program right now.  I read aloud to the kids, and they have their own books that they read to themselves, that they pick out.  Should I be doing more for that?

For now, just let them both continue to read good books.  Continue readalouds if you all enjoy that.  Worry about a lit program later.  You just started homeschooling.  Consider de-schooling for a short while or relax in some subjects if you can't completely de-school.  De-stressing now will allow you to move forward more quickly later.  Give everyone time to adjust, and enjoy your kids.  :grouphug:

[kbutton]

My son who likes straightforward things vs. open-ended stuff loves grammar with MCT. That said, we can't do everything open-ended, or he freaks out. I think it depends on how the child thinks. My son likes that MCT grammar lays out the basis for why something makes sense, and then he emphasizes patterns over and over again. If my son can't remember what something is called, we just talk through the pattern, and he's right there again. MCT does not do diagramming, but we add it in. My son is very visual, and again, he loves the patterns. The diagramming puts that all out there visually for him. We use the reference manual from the How to Diagram Everything program by Elizabeth O'Brien.

 

 

[5LittleMonkeys]

Your son sounds like he might be a good candidate for Analytical Grammar.  It is a no fluff, straightforward, to the point program that provides plenty of practice through parsing every part of speech in every sentence as they are being learned. It also includes diagramming and paraphrasing practice. 

 

You might look at AG's companion writing program series called Beyond the Book Report.  Since he likes to read he could learn writing skills by writing about his literature.  It uses a very "mechanical" format for getting dc to organize their thoughts and get them on paper.  Some would call it formulaic, which often has negative connotations, however some dc need to learn this way and eventually, once getting their thoughts onto paper in an organized way becomes second nature, they can move onto working on style and voice. 

 

IEW, mentioned above by Taryn,  would be another good option for the child that struggles with what to write.  

 

Regardless of what writing program you choose I would also recommend listening to the MP3's mentioned above.  Although I don't follow those methods to the T they gave me valuable insight into why my children, at a young age, struggled so much to put pen to paper.  

[TarynB]

Your son sounds like he might be a good candidate for Analytical Grammar. It is a no fluff, straightforward, to the point program that provides plenty of practice through parsing every part of speech in every sentence as they are being learned. It also includes diagramming and paraphrasing practice.

 

You might look at AG's companion writing program series called Beyond the Book Report. Since he likes to read he could learn writing skills by writing about his literature. It uses a very "mechanical" format for getting dc to organize their thoughts and get them on paper. Some would call it formulaic, which often has negative connotations, however some dc need to learn this way and eventually, once getting their thoughts onto paper in an organized way becomes second nature, they can move onto working on style and voice.

 

IEW, mentioned above by Taryn, would be another good option for the child that struggles with what to write.

 

Regardless of what writing program you choose I would also recommend listening to the MP3's mentioned above. Although I don't follow those methods to the T they gave me valuable insight into why my children, at a young age, struggled so much to put pen to paper.

Are you using Beyond the Book Report? How does it work - are specific books assigned as reading, or do you choose your own? It is a new program, right? Are all the levels out yet? You're the second person I've seen mention it in a post in the last day or so, so I'm curious. Like I need more curricula, right? LOL.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Taryn - I am using several different components of it (different age levels). I'll come back later and give you some details about it but I've got to run out for a bit right now.  :)

[TianXiaXueXiao]

We recently switched to homeschooling over Christmas break. My oldest son is in Grade 6, he just turned 12 yrs old.  He's a very logical child.  For this reason, he loves math and science, hates Language Arts.  The only component he loves, is reading.  He loves adventure books, he's read Harry Potter, Warriors, and Percy Jackson.  He's an okay speller, but I need to get him a spelling program as Hake doesn't have enough.  He's extremely weak in grammar, he knows what a noun is but that's about it.  He's even weaker in writing.  I'll give him a simple 5 minute writing assignment and he'll sit at the table for an hour getting more and more frustrated and upset until I finally cave in and help him.  He says the problem is that he needs a sentence to start him off, but even when I give him a starter, his writing is extremely sloppy.  He just rushes through it and wants to get it over with.  Very short, non-descriptive sentences.  It's already becoming a daily battle.  

 

For writing, we're using Jump In.  It seemed very basic and light, so I thought it would be good for him.  I'm not sure how much "lighter" it can get than this.  For grammar we're using Hake 6, which I hate.  I don't like the set-up of it.  When asked, he tells me that he doesn't switch and he doesn't mind it, but he admitted that it's just because he doesn't want to start over in something else.  Even though we're only a week into it.  Basically he's the type of kid who just wants to get his work over with as fast as possible and will take as many shortcuts as possible to get there.

 

My daughter is 9 and in Gr.4.  She's extremely bright.  Very neat, enjoys workbook style curriculum.  I didn't know what to get for her, and was panicking a bit as I needed something, so I purchased McRuffy 4 LA.  She seems to put up with it, as she's probably used to a lot of busywork from public school, but I don't like it.  It seems like so much wasted time.  I'm not as worried about her, as she'll do well with whatever curriculum she's given, without complaints.  I have been looking around though as I think she can do better with something else that's a bit "meatier".

 

LA is not my strong point, I have a more logical mind like my oldest and don't have a creative bone in my body.  Math was my best subject in school.  So LA really makes me nervous as I'm scared I'm going to screw it up!  Also, we don't have a reading comp or literature program right now.  I read aloud to the kids, and they have their own books that they read to themselves, that they pick out.  Should I be doing more for that?

 

Any suggestions for new programs? Especially grammar and writing for my oldest?

 

ETA: The only thing my son does like about Hake Grammar and Jump In is that he can go ahead and do his work on his own without having to wait for me.  So a self-instructed program would work better for him.  He doesn't like being "taught" unless he's struggling and needs the help.

 

Hi there. I would also recommend Michael Clay Thompson language arts, AND, I would also encourage you to take it very easy with academic studies during this transitional period (6 months). I keep posting about this lately for new homeschoolers because I am only a year and a half ahead of you, and my memory of just starting out is very fresh. The best advice I was given when I first started homeschooling was to "deschool." I pass this along whenever I get the chance because I think it made a huge difference in my dd's experience transitioning away from social fest of public school to being at home with a baby sister and her mom all day. We ended up doing very relaxed homeschooling (Michael Clay Thompson and Math only) for all of 4th grade and picked up on classical education over the summer last year. She is really well adjusted to homeschooling now and never whines about wanting to be with her friends anymore and she is doing great with grade level and above work, so easing off did not hinder her skills, at all. Congratulations on your big change!

 

[5LittleMonkeys]

Whew!  Finally made it back to the computer. :)  

 

Yes, this is a fairly new program, although I do believe that two components of the 3rd season, Teaching the Essay and The Research Report,  have been out for some time and available for purchase individually. The first season is available, the second is supposed to have been available in Dec....don't know if they met that or not, and the third won't be ready until March. 

 

I've just recently started using the Teaching the Essay ... so far I like it for what it is.  It doesn't teach style; it doesn't teach how to arrive at deep, meaningful content.  It teaches in a step by step, formulaic way that is perfect for students who need to be taught that way.  If you follow the steps laid out in the lessons there is no question as to "what do I write next", "how many sentences does my paragraph need to have", "what should this sentence say".  It is, imo, by no means going to produce prize winning writing, but it will get your struggling child writing. 

 

This first part of the program teaches how to write a basic literary essay by using several short stories. The student is led through the process of deciding what their essay will prove, how to find evidence to use as proofs, and how to use that evidence to formulate their paragraphs. There are day by day instructions, worksheets for each step of the writing process, techniques for the student to evaluate their own writing, and a sample essay.  

 

Season One is designed to be used along with any fiction book of your choice. There are 3 different types of reports you will do, basic report, pamphlet report, and journalism report. Each report will be done on a different book and will include filling out a reading log to help the child manage his time, writing down key plot points while reading, watching for examples of literary terms (which are taught on the dvd lessons), and choosing a favorite passage to use as a paraphrasing exercise.  

 

This is meant to start in 6th grade so it assumes that the child is comfortable writing a basic plot summary, and much of the work is meant for the student to work on independently. However, I see a lot of value in using this with a younger child or an older struggling child with shorter books, or even longer picture books, and working alongside them to complete the different reports. I'm using it with a 5th grader who has written lots of short summaries but never for a full book.  The only part I think she will struggle with is the journalism part which requires more creative writing.  She can write easily about what happened in a story, but putting a creative spin on the same info isn't her forte.  I've no problem skipping that portion if we need to.

 

[bluedarling]

Are you using Beyond the Book Report? How does it work - are specific books assigned as reading, or do you choose your own? It is a new program, right? Are all the levels out yet? You're the second person I've seen mention it in a post in the last day or so, so I'm curious. Like I need more curricula, right? LOL.

 

I am using BtBR Season 1 with dd13, and its quite light for this age.  They have the child schedule out the book reading and a few days to write the report.  In this respect, its a very short curriculum (like about 9-12 days of writing and 6 days of dvd lessons).  The rest is time scheduled for reading the books.  That said, my daughter enjoys doing it, and is learning a lot about literary terms & publishing.  We like it, but I don't feel like its enough writing to really help her solidify her writing skills.  If we use it next year, I will be adding additional writing  (I am considering Jump In.)  If you are ok with light writing curriculum, this might be a good fit, otherwise its an extra.

 

Like pp said, the child can select any work of fiction.  I don't know if additional levels are out, yet.  I haven't looked.

[TarynB]

Whew!  Finally made it back to the computer. :)  

 

Yes, this is a fairly new program, although I do believe that two components of the 3rd season, Teaching the Essay and The Research Report,  have been out for some time and available for purchase individually. The first season is available, the second is supposed to have been available in Dec....don't know if they met that or not, and the third won't be ready until March. 

 

I've just recently started using the Teaching the Essay ... so far I like it for what it is.  It doesn't teach style; it doesn't teach how to arrive at deep, meaningful content.  It teaches in a step by step, formulaic way that is perfect for students who need to be taught that way.  If you follow the steps laid out in the lessons there is no question as to "what do I write next", "how many sentences does my paragraph need to have", "what should this sentence say".  It is, imo, by no means going to produce prize winning writing, but it will get your struggling child writing. 

 

This first part of the program teaches how to write a basic literary essay by using several short stories. The student is led through the process of deciding what their essay will prove, how to find evidence to use as proofs, and how to use that evidence to formulate their paragraphs. There are day by day instructions, worksheets for each step of the writing process, techniques for the student to evaluate their own writing, and a sample essay.  

 

Season One is designed to be used along with any fiction book of your choice. There are 3 different types of reports you will do, basic report, pamphlet report, and journalism report. Each report will be done on a different book and will include filling out a reading log to help the child manage his time, writing down key plot points while reading, watching for examples of literary terms (which are taught on the dvd lessons), and choosing a favorite passage to use as a paraphrasing exercise.  

 

This is meant to start in 6th grade so it assumes that the child is comfortable writing a basic plot summary, and much of the work is meant for the student to work on independently. However, I see a lot of value in using this with a younger child or an older struggling child with shorter books, or even longer picture books, and working alongside them to complete the different reports. I'm using it with a 5th grader who has written lots of short summaries but never for a full book.  The only part I think she will struggle with is the journalism part which requires more creative writing.  She can write easily about what happened in a story, but putting a creative spin on the same info isn't her forte.  I've no problem skipping that portion if we need to.

 

 

I am using BtBR Season 1 with dd13, and its quite light for this age.  They have the child schedule out the book reading and a few days to write the report.  In this respect, its a very short curriculum (like about 9-12 days of writing and 6 days of dvd lessons).  The rest is time scheduled for reading the books.  That said, my daughter enjoys doing it, and is learning a lot about literary terms & publishing.  We like it, but I don't feel like its enough writing to really help her solidify her writing skills.  If we use it next year, I will be adding additional writing  (I am considering Jump In.)  If you are ok with light writing curriculum, this might be a good fit, otherwise its an extra.

 

Like pp said, the child can select any work of fiction.  I don't know if additional levels are out, yet.  I haven't looked.

 

Thank you both!  The details you've shared are very helpful.  Thanks for taking the time to describe the program and give your feedback.

[sahmoffour]

Wow!  Thank you all so much!  I keep going back and forth… I'm just at the point where it's driving me nuts and I just want to decide on something so I can forget about it for awhile.  

 

About the deschooling…. I considered it, but my older two are so worried and anxious about falling behind (people's stupid naive comments wore on them), that even the idea of it stressed them out.  So we're doing more interest-led Science/History/Geography, then sticking with normal math/LA.  They had wonderful grades at public school, yet when I did the placement tests with them, and now that I'm working with them and seeing what skills they have/don't have, they're really behind.  So we're working through Singapore math and doing really well, everyone's enjoying it.  And once I get comfortable with an LA choice, those will be the only two subjects we consistently work through, just because we want to catch up on some of their weaker skills before we jump in to a regular, full year of HSing.

 

MCT looks good and definitely has some good reviews.. but it worries me that it's supposedly really teacher-intensive.  My husband works away from home a lot, so HSing is completely on my shoulders, along with everything that entails taking care of 4 kids and a bunch of animals and an acreage.  I'm also HSing a 6 yr old and 5 yr old.  So even though I want to choose what will work best for him, I worry that there's just not enough time in the day.  Plus my oldest (12) really prefers things he can do on his own rather than waiting for me to finish working with another child.  I looked at Voyages in English, and while *I* like the looks of it, my oldest preferred Easy Grammar.  So I was considering doing Easy Grammar, IEW-B, and an undecided Spelling Program.  Is that everything or am I missing something?

 

Another approach I'm considering, since he really seems to dislike LA but loves to read, is maybe something like LLATL?  Maybe it would be helpful for him to back off a bit and go with a bit of a lighter program than a more rigorous one? At least for this first year while we get the hang of things, and then go from there?  

 

That still leaves me with my daughter (9).  She can definitely handle the more rigorous approach.  She's very bright and quick to catch on to new things.  Great memorization skills.  She's a good reader, but doesn't enjoy reading.  I have to push her to read chapter books, she'd still rather read picture books.  Great at spelling.  Writing comes a bit easier for her.  She's not the best writer, but she can at least write something, and isn't' like my oldest who will just sit there upset because he can't think of anything at all.  Hmmm….

[5LittleMonkeys]

 Plus my oldest (12) really prefers things he can do on his own rather than waiting for me to finish working with another child.  I looked at Voyages in English, and while *I* like the looks of it, my oldest preferred Easy Grammar.  So I was considering doing Easy Grammar, IEW-B, and an undecided Spelling Program.  Is that everything or am I missing something?

 

If he prefers to work on his own I would definitely get IEW for your writing program. The added benefit of IEW is that there is some grammar in it so dc really get a sense of how  parts of speech really apply to their own writing - something that gets missed sometimes when grammar is studied in isolation from writing. Usually by 12 most dc are ready to stop spelling and start on a vocabulary program but if he still struggles with spelling I would hold off on vocab until he's gone through a good rules based spelling program.  Easy Grammar is relatively...easy. LOL! He can do it independently and it won't feel as heavy as many other programs out there. It would be a good program to use while you are getting things settled and he gets used to his other subjects.  The only other thing you would be missing would be literature.  If he likes to read then I would just let him read what he wants right now, or at the very most pick up a few individual literature guides for him to work through (those typically will have some vocab in them which would be a plus)  You can browse free lit guides on a couple sites that I'll link below. For the rest of the year I would spend focus on the writing since that is an area of weakness that is really going to become an issue in a few short years when he starts highschool. 

 

 

 

That still leaves me with my daughter (9).  She can definitely handle the more rigorous approach.  She's very bright and quick to catch on to new things.  Great memorization skills.  She's a good reader, but doesn't enjoy reading.  I have to push her to read chapter books, she'd still rather read picture books.  Great at spelling.  Writing comes a bit easier for her.  She's not the best writer, but she can at least write something, and isn't' like my oldest who will just sit there upset because he can't think of anything at all.  Hmmm….

 

Based on your description I would be interested to see if she could do the IEW -B as well.  The levels of IEW are based on reading level, but I honestly thought the reading level of B was a little low so it may work for her.  She could work at her own pace so they wouldn't necessarily need to do it together.  I had a 3rd grader go through the 4th unit one year without problems.  That's where my recommendations for her will stop though. :)  I don't do traditional grammar with my elementary children so don't feel qualified to recommend a specific program.  I will say that usually its just a matter of finding something that clicks with your child...if she's as easy as you say though my first inclination would be to keep her in the same programs as your son for the sake of ease. Just because she could handle something super rigorous doesn't mean she has to use something super rigorous.  I've come to belief that in curricula talk often rigor means more, not necessarily better. 

 

Glencoe

 

Well, I was going to post individual links but decided just to link you to this thread in which LoriD worked her magic and linked a plethora of different options for lit guides. :)

[Ellie]

Easy Grammar and Writing Strands. My all-time favorites. :-)

[~Anna~]

I started homeschooling my DD last year in 7th, and she is more into math and science too, but she doesn't like to read. Her grammar was lacking and writing would almost bring her to tears.

 

We started with Rod & Staff English (book 6) last year and I held back on a lot of writing, just doing some of the writing lessons that were in the Rod & Staff book. Now, this year we are doing book 7 and I have added Writing with Skill Level 1, and skip the writing lessons in R & S. It is working wonderfully for her, and she says she actually isn't scared of writing like she was before and doesn't mind doing it. So we are making progress! Just wanted to share our experience in case it would help.

[bluedarling]

...

Another approach I'm considering, since he really seems to dislike LA but loves to read, is maybe something like LLATL?  Maybe it would be helpful for him to back off a bit and go with a bit of a lighter program than a more rigorous one? At least for this first year while we get the hang of things, and then go from there?  

 

That still leaves me with my daughter (9).  She can definitely handle the more rigorous approach.  She's very bright and quick to catch on to new things.  Great memorization skills.  She's a good reader, but doesn't enjoy reading.  I have to push her to read chapter books, she'd still rather read picture books.  Great at spelling.  Writing comes a bit easier for her.  She's not the best writer, but she can at least write something, and isn't' like my oldest who will just sit there upset because he can't think of anything at all.  Hmmm….

 

 

It looks like we're looking for the same things!  My 13yo, I'm trying to decide between LLATL or glencoe workbooks.  And then she has stellar student behind her (8yo working at 4th-6th grade level)...who I'm trying to decide whether to have her follow the same path or try more rigor with her (the only difference is she LOVES to read.) 

 

I think LLATL...light to start sounds like an excellent idea for your oldest.  WWE/FLL might make sense for your youngest....the FLL will be easy because of her good memorization skills, and her strong writing skills will work with WWE.  If she just reads the short excepts in the WWE, it may not be as overwhelming as a whole book, but might interest her in reading the whole thing of the ones that catch her interest.  That said, I think children should get to read picture books as long as they want.  I still prefer to read picture books more often...that's just that visual learner thing.  Some picture books have a lot of text and challenging vocabulary.  It just means you have to get more books from the library.  So long as she reads the same amount of time, it doesn't really matter if its a picture book, especially at 9yo...maybe at 13 (I think my 13yo still prefers picture books, too, but she's also starting to read novels...she LOVES fantasy, now, but at 9-11yo would only read non-fiction dog books.)

 

 

[sahmoffour]

Thanks you guys for all the input.  I'm off to do a bunch more research and check out samples of everything!

[Soror]

I agree w/ pp I think IEW would be a good fit for your son, it is more independent and incremental and laid out logically which can work very, very well for kids like him. I think you will both like it. I'd consider CAP's program Writing and Rhetoric for your 9yo it is more towards the independent side as well, or can be used that way, although I don't here. It is written to the student and she's the perfect age. 

[MerryAtHope]

Have you looked at Essentials in Writing? The 6th grade program would include both grammar and writing. It's laid out in an easy-to-follow manner--you watch a 5 or so minute dvd segment (I like to watch with my child) that demonstrates the concept they are to work on, it's clearly explained, has writing prompt ideas when they are to write--the student has a handout to go along or a worksheet. Very open and go. We tried Jump In also, but I found this easier to use and more helpful for my struggling writer. Here's a review I did a couple of years ago. 

 

Hope you find something that works well for you & your son! Merry :-)

[sahmoffour]

I LOVE the looks of CAP's Writing and Rhetoric!!!  I'm definitely ordering that for my 9 yr old daughter, I really wish they had the next levels so I could try it on my 12 yr old as well.  I looked at both IEW and Essentials in Writing, I just don't know if my son would like it.  He's a visual/kinesthetic learner.  Hates listening to anyone trying to teach him anything.  He'd rather read it himself and do his work on his own.  *I* would like it as I wouldn't worry so much about my writing instruction failing him, but I don't think it'd be a good fit.  

 

So, for my 9 yr old, CAP's W&R looks like a fairly loose schedule.  Only 3 days a week?  I'm just trying to figure out what to add to make it enough.  Easy Grammar daily?  Or twice a week opposite of CAP's W&R?  And spelling daily?  Is that it?  It just doesn't seem like enough.  I read posts of other people doing an hour of work per grade level, and even right now we're no where near that.  Today we did 45 minutes of Singapore math, 50 minutes of McRuffy LA, then 45 minutes of Science.  Science is Tues/Thurs and History/Geography is Mon/Wed/Fri.  So for Gr.4 she only averages around 2.5 hours a day.  Is that normal?

[5LittleMonkeys]

Last year in 4th dd worked for about 4-5 hours a day.  This was her line up: math, Latin, science\history rotation, art, literature, composition (included grammar and spelling), penmanship, independent reading, and homework for co-op classes photography and Greek history. 

 

 

[Soror]

I LOVE the looks of CAP's Writing and Rhetoric!!!  I'm definitely ordering that for my 9 yr old daughter, I really wish they had the next levels so I could try it on my 12 yr old as well.  I looked at both IEW and Essentials in Writing, I just don't know if my son would like it.  He's a visual/auditory learner.  Hates listening to anyone trying to teach him anything.  He'd rather read it himself and do his work on his own.  *I* would like it as I wouldn't worry so much about my writing instruction failing him, but I don't think it'd be a good fit.  

 

So, for my 9 yr old, CAP's W&R looks like a fairly loose schedule.  Only 3 days a week?  I'm just trying to figure out what to add to make it enough.  Easy Grammar daily?  Or twice a week opposite of CAP's W&R?  And spelling daily?  Is that it?  It just doesn't seem like enough.  I read posts of other people doing an hour of work per grade level, and even right now we're no where near that.  Today we did 45 minutes of Singapore math, 50 minutes of McRuffy LA, then 45 minutes of Science.  Science is Tues/Thurs and History/Geography is Mon/Wed/Fri.  So for Gr.4 she only averages around 2.5 hours a day.  Is that normal?

In your situation I'd just use WR and do that every day for a set time, as your only writing program. I'd add in spelling and you'll need more grammar. I'm assuming she reads on her own? Ds reads on his own and I read to him, so that adds to our time but it is a rather informal part of our day. His scheduled time is about 3-3.5 ish hrs- 1- Math, 1.25-1.5 for LA (grammar, spelling, writing), 1 Hr for History, Science etc. We have at least 1 hr of reading time in there as well, usually much more as he likes to read. I have his shelf loaded down w/ good books, lots of classics but contemporary good books as well. 

[sahmoffour]

Thanks so much!  I think I'm definitely sold on CAP's WR for my daughter.  So now I just need spelling (she's a natural speller but definitely not ready to be finished a spelling program quite yet), and grammar.  She does read, but it's not her favourite activity.  LOVES read alouds though!  I wonder if I should get a literature program for her.  Some type of novel study.  I just have this nagging feeling that I'm not doing enough for either of my older two children!  It is our first time homeschooling though after being in public school so I don't want to overload them either.

 

How about All About Spelling? Is it an easy program to jump into around a Gr.4 level?  I have it here (Level 1) for my 6 yr old to start when we're finished Phonics Pathways.  I know it's very rules-based though, and I'm not sure if I would have way too much ground to cover for my older two who've had nothing but spelling word lists every week for the past 3-5 years.  No rules whatsoever have been taught.

 

For grammar I'm still undecided.  Is Easy Grammar too… easy?  Is it too light?  Maybe I should check out Junior Analytical Grammar for her instead?

[MerryAtHope]

 

How about All About Spelling? Is it an easy program to jump into around a Gr.4 level?  I have it here (Level 1) for my 6 yr old to start when we're finished Phonics Pathways.  I know it's very rules-based though, and I'm not sure if I would have way too much ground to cover for my older two who've had nothing but spelling word lists every week for the past 3-5 years.  No rules whatsoever have been taught.

 

For grammar I'm still undecided.  Is Easy Grammar too… easy?  Is it too light?  Maybe I should check out Junior Analytical Grammar for her instead?

 

With older kids, what you do is fast-track through the early levels to fill in gaps with regard to concept knowledge. You don't have to make them spell all of the easy words--just demonstrate a few back to you to teach the concepts. The same rule that applies to using C for "cat" but K for "kid" also applies to longer words like "concentrate," so it's important to not leave gaps with the spelling rules, phonogram knowledge, etc... But you can fast track  until you get to harder words--here's a blog post that shows how to do that.

 

If you aren't sure how your son will respond--just let him know that you know he can easily spell the early words, and that's not the goal--the concepts are. It helps some kids understand if you compare to something like a video game or swimming lessons.  Even though level 1 of a game or of lessons is easy to do, that doesn’t mean you should jump ahead to level 10.  But it does mean that you can go quickly through the earlier levels, learning what you need to know so that when you DO get to the higher levels, you aren’t overwhelmed by having to learn too much at once.

 

My kids only needed about 3 weeks to fill in gaps from level 1 and then moved on. They did need more from L2, but you can fast track that one also if the words are easy. HTH some!

 

We did like Easy Grammar here. But Jr. Analytical Grammar wasn't out yet when my kids were that age, so I haven't looked at that.

 

Merry :-)