When to test for dyslexia?

[summerreading]

I am worried about my son's progress with phonics. He is 7, and he grasps things very quickly otherwise.

Just wondering if you had your child tested for reading issues, what age was it at and what finally made you ask to get testing done?

[FairProspects]

I say the earlier the better, particularly if there is a family history of dyslexia. My oldest was 7 at his eval and my youngest will also be 7.

[summerreading]

I say the earlier the better, particularly if there is a family history of dyslexia. My oldest was 7 at his eval and my youngest will also be 7.

 

Yes, my husband is dyslexic.

I just get confused, thinking I am just teaching it wrong or just haven't hit on a way that clicks.

Are both your children dyslexic?

[FairProspects]

Yes. My oldest has been officially dxd dyslexic, my youngest is still waiting for his eval.

[Plink]

If you suspect that there is a problem get an evaluation. You aren't thinking about it just for fun - you are seeing your child struggle.

 

Double the above since there is dyslexia already in the family.

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree with PPs.  We waited and listened to all the people saying just to wait, or they were fine, or whatever.  Both kids are dyslexic but presented very differently from each other.  I regret deeply we didn't get an evaluation much sooner.  My daughter was in 5th grade before we finally got an eval.  She maintained A's and B's in school, but it was a tremendous struggle every day.  We wasted hours and hours and hours over years trying to force her brain to learn in a way it wasn't meant to.  In less than a year, with remediation specifically designed for dyslexics, she is reading and spelling far far better than she ever did with 8 years of formal schooling, but now she is 13 and really behind in a lot of areas.  If we had gotten that assessment when she was 7, things could have been so different....

[summerreading]

I worried about this alot with his brother, now 10. Seeing him still reverse b's d's. But with DS 7, it just seems different than that. he can read a word on one page of a book he's heard 1,000 times and not recognize it on the other. He reads "in" as "all" and doesn't recognize "the" most of the times he sees it.

 

So, how do I get this done as a homeschooler? I suppose I should start with the pediatrician. We don't have health insurance. We did apply through the ACA website, but didn't hear anything yet.

[FairProspects]

If you are going to do a private evaluation, you need to find a neuropsychologist. Sometimes that takes a lot of research to find a good one and sometimes you get lucky and a great one is close by. But just to prepare you - these evaluations are expensive and often insurance won't cover any of it. The health insurance companies keep insisting that LD evaluations are "educational" so they don't have to cover them and schools keep insisting that they are "medical" and parents often get caught in the middle and end up footing the bill. You can also request an evaluation through your school district but many times that is of limited use to homeschoolers.

[OneStepAtATime]

I worried about this alot with his brother, now 10. Seeing him still reverse b's d's. But with DS 7, it just seems different than that. he can read a word on one page of a book he's heard 1,000 times and not recognize it on the other. He reads "in" as "all" and doesn't recognize "the" most of the times he sees it.

 

So, how do I get this done as a homeschooler? I suppose I should start with the pediatrician. We don't have health insurance. We did apply through the ACA website, but didn't hear anything yet.

My pediatrician is a great lady but extremely limited in knowledge about dyslexia (or anything in that realm).  She sent us in the wrong direction.  Now that we are moving in the right direction, I actually have been educating her, sending her resources, giving her the name of the evaluator we used, etc.  Hopefully, yours is not as ignorant as mine was but the only way to really have any idea is to educate yourself.  

 

Read The Dyslexic Advantage and the Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide.  Read Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shawitz (although some of her information is now somewhat out of date compared to the latest scientific research she still has useful info).  Get on the Dyslexic Advantage Website and the Barton Reading and Spelling website for info on reading issues.  You don't have to buy anything at either site and the information is free and informative.  Get educated so that you can better determine what assessments to get and who might be the best choice.

 

Also, you might consider a vision screening through a Developmental Optometrist since a lot of reading issues appear to be Dyslexia related and are actually unusual vision issues that typically do not show up in a normal vision screening (or both issues could be present).  If you read other posts here, you will find that many parents discover that there may be multiple issues, each masking the other, as well as multiple strengths that are masking the specific issues.  That is why professional evaluations instead of a parent diagnosis can be really helpful.

 

Best wishes and good luck.

[Lecka]

I have not had my son evaluated for dyslexia.  He has been evaluated for speech and OT, and had speech and OT therapy.  He has/had a vision tracking issue that has been helped with OT (vision therapy was also an option but for him OT was worth trying first). 

 

I don't think it is too young.  I started with phonemic awareness when my son was 6. 

 

Our insurance paid for speech and is paying for OT, because my son qualifies.  He wouldn't qualify for the other evals and so price is part of the reason we have not taken him.

 

I have an opinion, that if you look into phonemic awareness, and if it seems like that is where the problem lies, you can get him going with an effective program without an eval. 

 

There are some cons, but it is what we have done, and I don't have any regrets right now.  Ideally we would have done an eval, but it is not going to work out right now, and it doesn't seem pressing right now.  I also have not been able to identify a place to take him (though I have an idea).  One place, I found from a state dyslexia association website, I called, and the woman told me that they blanketly recommend the Sonday system.  I googled (etc) the Sonday system and I felt like -- it did not look like it would be what I would choose to use. (Edit:  I mean this is a place where my son could have been evaluated for dyslexia, and afterward, they would have just recommended I use the Sonday system.  It didn't seem like it was what I wanted, but that is what is available if I drive about an hour away.)  BUT if a comprehensive eval were possible I would want to do it.  And -- if what I tried had kept not working then we would have gotten to that point.

 

Sorry I am rambling. 

 

But anyway -- I think, feel free to look into dyslexia reading programs.  You don't *have* to have an eval.  If you try them for a little while and they don't work -- then you will feel like "gee I wasted money and time I can never get back, I wish I had done the eval in the first place."  But if you look into phonemic awareness and it seems like it is a weak area, and then a dyslexia reading program is helpful, then you will feel like "well we are on the right track here."

 

Sorry I am rambling. 

 

Overcoming Dyslexia is a book that I do not like everything about it, but it is the book that helped me understand the thing of phonemic awareness.  It is like -- can you break a word into individual sounds, and match those sounds to letters in a word.  It is the root problem for a lot of reading problems, and it is (my understanding) the most common cause for reading problems.  Not the only one, and not necessarily by itself, but still, very common and worth checking out.  It takes a lot more pages to say that, though. 

 

Edit:  my son really, obviously had problems with phonemic awareness, it was not subtle (when I knew what to look for), and it was just like he perfectly matched the descriptions of a phonemic awareness problem.  So -- it was not hard to say "so I should work on phonemic awareness."  He also had the Dibels screening in school, which is just 3 minutes long, but also, was some concrete information that my son was not developing in the area of phonemic awareness and needed help in that area. 

 

 

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree with Lecka, if a neuropsych eval is not feasible right now, or it looks like you may not be able to get one for some time, then after reading up a bit on dyslexia to educate yourself, it really would not hurt to get a jump start on trying to help with phonemic awareness.  You can look at the various programs for teaching a dyslexic to read, read reviews of others that have used those programs and see which one you might be interested in.  Be aware that dyslexia remediation is teacher intense.  They will not be able to do it independently.  Starting even a nuero-typical child in a program like that won't hurt at all, though, especially with a child that young.  I know several women using the program I use with ALL their kids, not just their dyslexic children and quite successfully.  They just move the NT kids through at a faster rate with little need for review.  There are a lot of programs out there and many women on this board have taken many different paths to help their children.  There is no one perfect program and you will get a lot of different responses as to what would work, but the ladies here are usually very articulate as to why a program did or didn't work for them, so you can make a more informed decision (and reading old posts on this board might help, too.)

[geodob]

Rather than looking at it as a 'test for dyslexia'?

You might reframe it, as you have recognized that he seems to have some reading issues?

Where you would like an assessment done to identify and understand these reading issues.

With this understanding, it will help you to identify an approach to address his reading issues.

Which may then be resolved?

 

Though you could start with a formal request from your local school, given that it is free.

 

 

[EKS]

We did the first evaluation at age 7, but they didn't diagnose dyslexia because it was with the public school.  Since dyslexia wasn't on my radar because of the first evaluation, I had him evaluated for CAPD and OT issues when he was 8.  When he was 9, I had him evaluated again, this time by a psychologist who supposedly had experience with kids like him, and he diagnosed him with Asperger's, which turned out to be incorrect.  Finally, I had done enough reading to see that we were probably dealing with dyslexia, and when he was 10 he was evaluated by a person with expertise with dyslexia and lo and behold, he was finally diagnosed accurately!

 

The moral of this story is to start early, be persistent, and don't believe a diagnosis just because a professional said it was true.

[FairProspects]

I agree with Lecka, if a neuropsych eval is not feasible right now, or it looks like you may not be able to get one for some time, then after reading up a bit on dyslexia to educate yourself, it really would not hurt to get a jump start on trying to help with phonemic awareness.  You can look at the various programs for teaching a dyslexic to read, read reviews of others that have used those programs and see which one you might be interested in.  Be aware that dyslexia remediation is teacher intense.  They will not be able to do it independently.  Starting even a nuero-typical child in a program like that won't hurt at all, though, especially with a child that young.  I know several women using the program I use with ALL their kids, not just their dyslexic children and quite successfully.  They just move the NT kids through at a faster rate with little need for review.  There are a lot of programs out there and many women on this board have taken many different paths to help their children.  There is no one perfect program and you will get a lot of different responses as to what would work, but the ladies here are usually very articulate as to why a program did or didn't work for them, so you can make a more informed decision (and reading old posts on this board might help, too.)

 

The only problem with not doing the eval is you will not have access to some of the services that are most helpful. Learning Ally is one of our most used technological adaptations and you can only access it with a diagnosis. Similarly with testing accommodations. You must have a paper trail to gain additional time on testing or to get a scribe or reader or anything else. These may not seem like important accommodations in elementary school but we have already seen the value of having a documented diagnosis just in the Science Fair. We were able to get ds accommodations for his dysgraphia and he won as a result because his issues did not hold him back. We would not have been able to receive the accommodations he needed without documentation for the LD.

 

[summerreading]

Thanks for all the replies. It makes a lot of sense to just use some of the programs for a child with reading issues, what could it hurt? I guess I just need to make a plan: look into a way of teaching to address phonemic awareness problems and give it some time.

We are trying to have him read one small book a day out loud, and today he was crying saying he gets confused which way the letters are supposed to go.

I am a bit paranoid about dyslexia due to the trouble my husband has had in school and just life in general, so maybe I am jumping the gun a little.

 

Dh says he thinks he just hasn't had enough formal teaching to say there is an issue and wants us to try hooked on phonics like his brother did. I purposely didn't start teaching him until he was about 6 1/2 because I just wanted him to be ready to sit and learn with me.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks for all the replies. It makes a lot of sense to just use some of the programs for a child with reading issues, what could it hurt? I guess I just need to make a plan: look into a way of teaching to address phonemic awareness problems and give it some time.

We are trying to have him read one small book a day out loud, and today he was crying saying he gets confused which way the letters are supposed to go.

I am a bit paranoid about dyslexia due to the trouble my husband has had in school and just life in general, so maybe I am jumping the gun a little.

 

Dh says he thinks he just hasn't had enough formal teaching to say there is an issue and wants us to try hooked on phonics like his brother did. I purposely didn't start teaching him until he was about 6 1/2 because I just wanted him to be ready to sit and learn with me.

Although an assessment through an experienced and qualified neuro-psychologist would give you more concrete answers for what is going on, as mentioned, starting on an OG based system right now couldn't hurt.  However, I strongly urge you not to have him read out loud until you have started him on that  program, one designed to address issues associated with dyslexia.  You are encouraging him to guess and those habits are terribly hard to break.  It will also make him hate reading and undermine his confidence.  Stop having him read aloud.  Find a program based on Orton-Gillingham methods, but read up on dyslexia first.  If you can't get an eval right now, you can at least read up on the possible issues.  

 

Read the Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide and Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz as soon as possible.  These two may help you get a better overall picture before you start researching programs.  There are other books to look at, but read these first, preferably the Eide book before the Shaywitz so you can see the bigger picture.  Your children may have some tremendous strengths that haven't even been tapped yet because they are possibly dyslexic (not in spite of).  Once you are better educated, then you can come at this with more knowledge for how to help.  In the meantime, read to him, and let him listen to books on CD and if you have a Kindle Fire or another device like that, do text to speech or Immersion Reading, instead of him reading out loud, so he is still being exposed to vocabulary and concepts without having to fight to decode.  This is encouraged for parents to do with NT kids, too, but especially dyslexics.  Reading to him is not a crutch, it is a critical link for him to books without the stress and confusion and even pain of trying to decode words without proper training.

 

Look at the following links for some immediate information....

http://www.bartonreading.com/dys.html

http://www.interdys.org/FactSheets.htm

http://www.scoop.it/t/what-is-dyslexia

http://www.scoop.it/t/dyslexia-teaching

 

Once you have read up on dyslexia, you can start looking at programs to try.  There are many ways to approach this.  Currently, I am using Barton Reading and Spelling with both of my kids quite successfully, but there are others out there with good reputations.

 

He may very well have vision issues, too, though, and they may not show up on a standard vision screening.  This isn't all that uncommon (just check old posts here).  Screening through a Developmental Optometrist may help determine this.

 

 Hugs and best wishes.

[OneStepAtATime]

And I know it seems like you should be making him read to improve his reading.  I get that.  But I watched my DD, especially, really struggling to read all the way through to 5th grade, picking up bad habits that were hard to break, developing a hate of reading, tremendous insecurities with reading and falling further and further behind her peers.  Just going back to basics, the very fundamentals of reading, and teaching her through a system specifically designed for dyslexics turned her reading around in a matter of months.  We wasted years trying to force her to learn in a way that she wasn't meant to learn.  Her brain just isn't structured that way. My son's isn't either, but he also has different issues and strengths, so our approach with him has necessarily been a bit different.  He is still finally making significant progress, though.

 

Step back, don't force reading, find a better path.  You won't regret it, I promise.

[summerreading]

 

Read the Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide and Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz as soon as possible. 

 

Ok, I understand what you are saying about guessing with reading. I will look into all the links first.

 

I have read The Dyslexic Advantage and have posted a few times on their site to ask questions for my husband. It was very helpful, would even say it improved my marriage to discover it. I do see a lot of the traits mentioned in the book about my son: big picture in thinking, big story teller, etc. I haven't heard of the other book before, so will put it on my list.

 

thanks for the help

[summerreading]

And I know it seems like you should be making him read to improve his reading.  I get that.  But I watched my DD, especially, really struggling to read all the way through to 5th grade, picking up bad habits that were hard to break, developing a hate of reading, tremendous insecurities with reading and falling further and further behind her peers.  Just going back to basics, the very fundamentals of reading, and teaching her through a system specifically designed for dyslexics turned her reading around in a matter of months.  We wasted years trying to force her to learn in a way that she wasn't meant to learn.  Her brain just isn't structured that way. My son's isn't either, but he also has different issues and strengths, so our approach with him has necessarily been a bit different.  He is still finally making significant progress, though.

 

Step back, don't force reading, find a better path.  You won't regret it, I promise.

 

Didn't see this before posting. I'm so happy to hear that your kids are making progress :D

[summerreading]

Sorry, one more question. If I started him on a system meant for dyslexics, would I still be able to determine if he did indeed have an issue? Does this makes sense?

If he does have a reading problem and would need additional time at school if he ever went, it would be beneficial, as a PP mentioned, to have it documented.

 

I'm just wondering if it is better to try something like HOP first to determine if it's my way of teaching or an issue with him? Hope that makes sense.

[OneStepAtATime]

I have read some really negative reviews of Hooked on Phonics for truly remediating Dyslexia effectively..  I, personally, would not use that system if HOP is Hooked on Phonics because of the negative reviews but I have not used that system personally with my dyslexic children.

 

 If you are concerned about remediation preventing him from getting an accurate diagnosis and needed accommodations if he goes to school later on, my first question would be how long are you intending to wait to seek evaluations?  If you are talking a few months, no, it shouldn't affect the diagnosis much at all.  

 

My second question is this:  Are you saying you would rather not teach him how to read well now so that he can get accommodations later if you ever put him in school?   Wouldn't you rather teach him how to read well now, and have him maybe not even need accommodations later?  Maybe I am misunderstanding your question....  Are you saying you would rather not pursue instruction through an OG system right now in hopes that he will learn another way, but if he doesn't he can still get accommodations if you put him in school because he would still show as having dyslexia through an evaluation?  What are your goals at this point?  

 

To clarify, dyslexia doesn't go away.  It isn't an illness you can heal.  It is a difference in processing data that creates weaknesses in some areas and strengths in other areas.  A lot of the issues that come with dyslexics trying to learn to read can be remediated in many cases, but dyslexia doesn't go away.

 

If you are still considering an OG system, you might give you children the student screening on the Barton Reading and Spelling site.  It is free, easy to administer, and doesn't take very long.  If they pass all three sections, then they are able to do an OG based reading/spelling system.  If they don't, then you may need to address some other issues first if your kids are going to be successful in an OG system.

 

By the way, my husband is dyslexic, too.  He sat down and watched a few lessons with the system we are using, then read through the material, and wishes wholeheartedly that he had been taught this way.  He struggled a great deal in school.  He, too, was really reluctant for me to get assessments, oddly, because he didn't want a bad label and he (I think) also didn't want to believe that he had passed on some defect to his kids.  Now he realizes that we needed answers to better help the kids, but also that being dyslexic isn't really a defect, just a difference in processing (although our society does not always treat it that way, times are changing).  He has tremendous strengths in areas I will NEVER have.  I have strengths in areas he will never have.  And that's o.k.  We just need to find a way to help the kids learn and navigate life in a more productive way than they were before.  Reading is finally coming along great.  (My daughter is currently reading a 400 page book, something impossible even 3 months ago).  So is spelling.  There are other areas that we are still working on, and some days are really challenging still, but the difference between the beginning of 2013 and the end of 2013 is like night and day.

 

Hope some of that helped...I was kind of rambling as I try to process paperwork for the business.  And thanks for the encouragement about the kids....

[summerreading]

I would only wait a few months. I guess my question doesn't really make sense. I was just thinking there might be some "disadvantage" to starting with a special program before a diagnosis, something I might have overlooked. Overactive brain on my part maybe. I think your husband's assessment of the program you are using might help me to convince him for us to look into it.

 

If you don't mind I am sending you a PM. You sound busy, no rush to answer :)

[Lecka]

I am wondering if there is an opinion on the Barton website about whether or not to get an eval? 

 

I think she is in favor of doing early intervention when there are warning signs.... but I don't think that is necessarily being opposed to getting an evaluation. 

 

 

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Addressing Lecka's question, I could not find a reference where Susan Barton is advocating evaluation through a neurospychologist outside of the school systems, although it may very well be there since the site is fairly extensive.  I did find this:

 

QUOTE:  An Early Intervention Program is a way to find students at highest risk of reading failure early enough to prevent it.

The National Institutes of Health (NIH) state that 95 percent of poor readers can be brought up to grade level if they receive effective help early. The window of opportunity is during kindergarten and first grade.

The longer help is delayed, the harder it is for the child to catch up. If help is provided in fourth grade (instead of in kindergarten), it takes four times as long to improve the same skills by the same amount.

 

The best predictor of a child destined for later reading failure is a child who lacks age-appropriate phonemic awareness.

“The lack of phonemic awareness
is the core and causal factor
separating normal readers
from disabled readersâ€

Keith Stanovich
NIH Researcher

 

More recent research has expanded that list to include 3 reliable early predictors: phonemic awareness, rapid naming, and auditory memory.

All three are essential pre-reading skills. Children who are below age-appropriate norms in any one of those three areas are at extremely high risk of later reading failure.

Since these are pre-reading skills, children can be tested as young as age five – before they’ve been exposed to formal reading instruction.

Susan Barton recommends public and private schools screen all kindergartners or beginning first graders using the CTOPP-2. CTOPP stands for Comprehensive Test of Phonological Processing. The 2 stands for version 2. It is published by Pro-Ed Books, 800-897-3202, www.proedinc.com. Their part number for the CTOPP is 13080.  END QUOTE

[Lecka]

Thanks.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks.

Welcome!  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks.

Welcome!  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks.

Welcome!  :)

[PeterPan]

I am worried about my son's progress with phonics. He is 7, and he grasps things very quickly otherwise.

Just wondering if you had your child tested for reading issues, what age was it at and what finally made you ask to get testing done?

Summerreading, I'm sorry to jump in on this so late.  I don't know if you've sorted things out yet, but I'll add a few comments.  One, it's entirely possible to assume dyslexia and get a TOTALLY DIFFERENT label.  The DSM is screwier than you can even imagine.  Adhd and dyslexia used to be lumped together as one label (minimal brain dysfunction).  Now, 20-30 years later, they're separate and dyslexia is gone, relabeled as reading disorder.  The symptoms overlap and are a matter of degree.  They used to diagnose dyslexia based on discrepancy (expected performance vs. actual) and now it's an absolute thing, absolutely low scores or not.  Adhd is a label arrived at by exclusion, as in they said he's *not quite* bad enough to get labeled dyslexic, so they throw this on him.  It's nuts.  You can also have VISION problems or something totally different causing his symptoms!

 

So the most sensible thing?  Number one, get his eyes eval'ed, PLEASE.  It costs you $60 and it's good for everyone.  Don't go to a regular optometrist, go to a developmental optometrist that you find through COVD.  Tell them he's having problems learning to read and that you want his eyes checked with a regular exam and *screened* for the developmental vision stuff.  They can screen him for convergence, focusing, all sorts of things that can affect his ability to read.  

 

A developmental optometrist can also do a longer developmental vision exam.  As part of that, they can do an EF screening.  EF = executive function, and a ped, OT, eye doc, SLP, all sorts of practitioners can do this.  It's a screening tool, and what it's going to clue you into is if there's an executive function reason behind his struggles to read.  If a dc is struggling with low working memory, that's going to seriously dampen their ability to sound out words.  Vision and working memory work together, so if they're working really, really hard to focus their eyes, that's eating up their processing speed and working memory.  Then you go ok, hold all those sounds from those 3,4,5 letters and blend them together! and the kid looks at you and says he can't.  My kid said she couldn't, and she literally couldn't.  She had a very low working memory and vision problems.

 

You CAN'T ASSUME that it's dyslexia.  I'm not saying it's not, just that there are a bunch of other things.  And, unfortunately, because the DSM sucks, his profile will overlap with DA (Dyslexic Advantage) and everything you read.  I love DA and found a ton of help in it, and my dd did NOT get a dyslexia label.

 

Don't ASSUME, get the evals.  Start with the cheapest evals and work your way up.  You can get into a developmental optometrist in 2 weeks and it's affordable for that basic exam.  If he has nothing wrong with his eyes and you're cleared, boom start the next thing.  It takes often 1-3 months (or more!) to get into a psych.  So while you're looking for the developmental optometrist, you go ahead and look for psychs.  You talk to your friends.  It can take a while to find someone you feel really confident in, someone who's pro homeschooling or ps or whatever you do, someone you feel is going to communicate well with your dc, etc.  I looked for someone on the advisory board for the dyslexia association in our state, because I wanted it straight.  He gave us a fair eval and a lot of info I never would have DREAMED of or discovered on my own.

 

As part of your triage, you can also head to your ped.  Don't accept any diagnosis from the ped, but if the vision doc doesn't run that EF screening I would probably go ahead and have the ped do it.  He can do it as part of your regular yearly check-up and it won't cost you anything.  It's a 3 page form that takes just a few minutes to fill out.  They tally and tell you the scoop.  DON'T accept a diagnosis from that, because it's a screening tool.  Then you say ok, you've got this screening tool saying we have issues, so I want the fully neuropsychological eval.  He writes the referral, your insurance covers it.  If the screening tool turns up nothing, well that's informative too.  

 

Alternately, you go through the ps and get the evals.  

 

I'm just saying I'm pro evals.  I don't see how you deal with this accurately when you don't know what you're dealing with.  You treated it like a developmental delay and waited till he was 7.  It's clearly not a developmental delay.  There *are* delays in EF development in some kids, where they'll be 30% behind when everything else is typical developing.  So the parent waits 3 years, the reading starts, and the parent says "see, he was just a late bloomer!"  Well no, he had a diagnose-able problem, he STILL has a diagnosable problem, and by not putting the right words on it you're missing the chance to interact with it optimally.  

 

If he has a working memory problem or EF problem, you can actually TARGET that once you know!  There are all kinds of things you can do there, and they aren't the same things as what you'd do if he's (only) dyslexic.  Whether he's dyslexic or adhd or has vision issues, he's going to need remediation, but the type of remediation you choose really depends on the degree and exact nature of the problem.  If he's adhd and has working memory problems but no vision problems, he has a tremendous VSL (visual spatial) ability.  You do NOT need phonemic awareness to read, and that is a common misunderstanding.  My dd read ASTONISHINGLY WELL and had poor (comparatively) phonemic awareness.  In fact, until VT (vision therapy) she didn't fully know the alphabet in order.  She read on a college level but couldn't tell you the alphabet in order and couldn't sound out words.   ;)

 

You HAVE to find out what you're dealing with because you can't target it otherwise.  Shooting in the dark won't get it done.  And no, I wouldn't teach him with HOP.  My *guess* is your dh or whoever is drawn to it because of the kinesthetic nature.  That is VERY perceptive and insightful to realize that some kids really, really do better when their kinesthetic side is engaged.  But then you need something that is still digging in with the OG-type of instruction.  Rocket Phonics by Guffanti would do that.  It's kinesthetic and OG-based.  

 

Don't waste an entire summer shooting in the dark.  And yes, you're correct that, given his age, it would be nice to go ahead and get the evals *before* you do the remediation.  As I said though, you're looking at 1-3 or more months to get into a psych.  So get those appointments lined up.  You can always cancel them if you don't need them.

[PeterPan]

PS.  My tentative plan for my ds right now is to get some kind of screening appt now at age 5, then do full evals at 7, 11, 15.  You're are perfectly on track and NOW is the time.  :)

[summerreading]

PS.  My tentative plan for my ds right now is to get some kind of screening appt now at age 5, then do full evals at 7, 11, 15.  You're are perfectly on track and NOW is the time.   :)

 

Thanks for your reply. I didn't know the eye exam was the same cost as a regular eye doctor. I was just guessing it would be costly, so that's good to know. Finances are an issue and we don't have health insurance. I applied through before the ACA deadline, but haven't heard anything at all.

 

I didn't really delay phonics due to thinking he was delayed. He has just picked up so much from being around and part of his older brother's lessons, that I thought phonics would be a cake walk and I'd start it this past Sept. when we started up school again. Math, he is doing multiplication.

 

I got him to sit with StarFall.com, he didn't want to do it because he thought his friends would find out. And then after this today we went over our phonics book work, and I am noticing he can only read the CAC words (or 4 letter) if I tell him which sound to start with. I know he knows all the sounds. So after this I wrote some CAC words and tried making new words by replacing the first letter. After about 8 -ip words written out in front of him, I said how would we spell "tip" and he said "theip"

 

I asked him why is reading so hard and he said every time he see a word he has to think which direction to read it from. And when he starts to read a sentence from the left, half way through he is confused and will start to try to read it from the right side. He is showing some anxiousness about it. I feel like even though I started "late" months of this he shouldn't have to think about this every time? Or am I wrong? 

 

He told me, when I learn to write I want to write a book about my life. So cute! I hope we can get there.

 

Sorry if I am going on too much with details.

[PeterPan]

Yes, getting a regular eye exam (the annual kind) at a developmental optometrist will be basically the same cost as getting one at a regular optometrist.  It's getting the full developmental exam that costs more.  What you need to do in your case is call all the options from the COVD and very carefully talk with them about what the cost is for the regular exam, the developmental exam (if he needs that), and the VT sessions.  Ask them about sliding scales, payment plans, and other options.  How they handle that really depends on the place.  Our VT place is rather large, and they have a "no child leaves untreated" policy.  They have a sliding scale that gets the cost down quite, quite low.  But cost varies.  

 

Also, some people have gotten their state children's health care to cover it, including VT, so see what your options are.  And yes, with what you describe, I'd want his eyes checked.  He shouldn't have to be thinking about where to track, where to focus, etc.

[summerreading]

Yes, getting a regular eye exam (the annual kind) at a developmental optometrist will be basically the same cost as getting one at a regular optometrist.  It's getting the full developmental exam that costs more.  What you need to do in your case is call all the options from the COVD and very carefully talk with them about what the cost is for the regular exam, the developmental exam (if he needs that), and the VT sessions.  Ask them about sliding scales, payment plans, and other options.  How they handle that really depends on the place.  Our VT place is rather large, and they have a "no child leaves untreated" policy.  They have a sliding scale that gets the cost down quite, quite low.  But cost varies.  

 

Also, some people have gotten their state children's health care to cover it, including VT, so see what your options are.  And yes, with what you describe, I'd want his eyes checked.  He shouldn't have to be thinking about where to track, where to focus, etc.

 

Ok. You said it could be up to 3 months to get him fully evaluated. Do you think I should start with an OG based program like Rocket Phonics now? Or is it better to wait?

[PeterPan]

Ok. You said it could be up to 3 months to get him fully evaluated. Do you think I should start with an OG based program like Rocket Phonics now? Or is it better to wait?

Sorry, it's getting late and I must not be communicating very well!  A psychological exam through a psych or neuropsych takes a while to get done.  There can be a wait of 1-3 months to get in, and usually the testing is done over several days, with a wait of a couple weeks for the final report.  

 

By contrast, you can get into a developmental optometrist usually within a couple weeks and get some upfront answers.

 

I don't know all the things going on with your dc to even begin to give you good advice.  I can tell you that in your shoes I'd be wanting ALL the evals you can get.  I'd get a basic eye exam (the $60 kind but through a developmental optometrist), a psych eval, etc.  If you can't afford a psych eval, go through the ps.  Sometimes the ps system is incredibly helpful, so maybe yours will be.  By law they're supposed to do something, it's just a question of how much and how thorough it will be.  If your price point is zero, there's your option that at least gets you something.  They also have legal time constraints from when you file the paperwork, so it makes it not this extended waiting game.  So in your shoes, that's something I'd be looking into.

 

I can't say what his ideal remediation is.  I can say that if you can get some evals through the ps, I would wait the few weeks and get that going before you start any remediation.  No point muddying the waters by doing remediation before you eval.  Eval, then start remediation.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Sorry, it's getting late and I must not be communicating very well!  A psychological exam through a psych or neuropsych takes a while to get done.  There can be a wait of 1-3 months to get in, and usually the testing is done over several days, with a wait of a couple weeks for the final report.  

 

By contrast, you can get into a developmental optometrist usually within a couple weeks and get some upfront answers.

 

I don't know all the things going on with your dc to even begin to give you good advice.  I can tell you that in your shoes I'd be wanting ALL the evals you can get.  I'd get a basic eye exam (the $60 kind but through a developmental optometrist), a psych eval, etc.  If you can't afford a psych eval, go through the ps.  Sometimes the ps system is incredibly helpful, so maybe yours will be.  By law they're supposed to do something, it's just a question of how much and how thorough it will be.  If your price point is zero, there's your option that at least gets you something.  They also have legal time constraints from when you file the paperwork, so it makes it not this extended waiting game.  So in your shoes, that's something I'd be looking into.

 

I can't say what his ideal remediation is.  I can say that if you can get some evals through the ps, I would wait the few weeks and get that going before you start any remediation.  No point muddying the waters by doing remediation before you eval.  Eval, then start remediation.  

Yes, to everything OhE said above....

[summerreading]

We have a developmental eye exam on Thursday. I feel relieved to be moving ahead.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yeah!   :hurray:  Hopefully, they can give you some concrete answers one way or the other.  

 

We just finally found a Developmental Optometrist locally (today) that can do a more detailed eye exam but they aren't listed on the COVD website so I am uncertain how good they are and they don't take our insurance so I'm not sure how high the cost will be (scary thought), but we are scheduled for Thursday, anyway.  Driving 4 hours for an eye exam and possible follow up VT just is rather daunting, so I guess we will go ahead and try with the local guy first....

 

Best of luck!

[PeterPan]

Yeah!   :hurray:  Hopefully, they can give you some concrete answers one way or the other.  

 

We just finally found a Developmental Optometrist locally (today) that can do a more detailed eye exam but they aren't listed on the COVD website so I am uncertain how good they are and they don't take our insurance so I'm not sure how high the cost will be (scary thought), but we are scheduled for Thursday, anyway.  Driving 4 hours for an eye exam and possible follow up VT just is rather daunting, so I guess we will go ahead and try with the local guy first....

 

Best of luck!

OneStep, do you at least have some feedback from someone who has used them?  Did you ask them flat up why they aren't on COVD?  If they're doing a lot of VT, they would be in COVD.  If they're not, why use them?  Even on the COVD list, you find docs who aren't doing it much and docs who are dealing with it a ton.  So did this guy get the training and not want to pay membership fees?  He has non-typical training, like he went to a workshop and stuck out his shingle??

 

You would be AMAZED at what practitioners are willing to claim with a straight face while they take your money.  There are ST who will claim they do PROMPT when what they mean is that they prompt (made up gestures).  Worse yet, they'll say they do the technique and what they mean is they went to an informational workshop on it, kinda got the theory, and said sure I can do that.  

 

And for their high level of training and self-determined qualifications (snort) they take the same money as another qualified practitioner, usually 4Xs what our dh's make trying to support us.  Guess you can tell about how highly I think of that.  ;)

 

The cost of the appt is the cost of gas.  I'd at least ask 'em why they're not listed and expect an answer.

[PeterPan]

We have a developmental eye exam on Thursday. I feel relieved to be moving ahead.

That's exciting!  Normally we suggest you get some feedback on the doc, talk with people who've used him, etc.  Hopefully he turns out to be a good one.  Let us know how it turns out!  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

OneStep, do you at least have some feedback from someone who has used them?  Did you ask them flat up why they aren't on COVD?  If they're doing a lot of VT, they would be in COVD.  If they're not, why use them?  Even on the COVD list, you find docs who aren't doing it much and docs who are dealing with it a ton.  So did this guy get the training and not want to pay membership fees?  He has non-typical training, like he went to a workshop and stuck out his shingle??

 

You would be AMAZED at what practitioners are willing to claim with a straight face while they take your money.  There are ST who will claim they do PROMPT when what they mean is that they prompt (made up gestures).  Worse yet, they'll say they do the technique and what they mean is they went to an informational workshop on it, kinda got the theory, and said sure I can do that.  

 

And for their high level of training and self-determined qualifications (snort) they take the same money as another qualified practitioner, usually 4Xs what our dh's make trying to support us.  Guess you can tell about how highly I think of that.   ;)

 

The cost of the appt is the cost of gas.  I'd at least ask 'em why they're not listed and expect an answer.

Well, I used him once to try and get a better prescription since my glasses never seemed to help as much as I thought they should (I have fragmented vision that drives Optometrists nuts), and my mom had used him for her glasses and we both have odd vision issues.  He was recommended to us because he is a Developmental Optometrist, not a standard Optometrist.  He was able to help both of us to some extent, at least better than any normal Optometrist or Ophthalmologist I have been to in this area, but he hadn't been available recently.  When I decided to try again, I talked to his assistant and explained our situation.  She said that he does evaluations like what I had described, and does some VT, but he mainly does the evals.   I thought if he could give us a good starting point then we'd know if driving all the way to another city would benefit us at all.   I just really, really don't want to have to drive over 4 hours for eye exams if vision isn't the issue...my van is old, and not in great shape (though I love her :) ).  Your point is a good one, though.  I will ask.   Thanks.

[summerreading]

That's exciting!  Normally we suggest you get some feedback on the doc, talk with people who've used him, etc.  Hopefully he turns out to be a good one.  Let us know how it turns out!   :)

 

Well, now that you mention it, I went back and read the reviews better and some are pretty bad. Eh, guess I will be cancelling that apt and looking around better for a better doctor.

Is it common with this field for some of the doctors to be so so?

[OneStepAtATime]

Well, now that you mention it, I went back and read the reviews better and some are pretty bad. Eh, guess I will be cancelling that apt and looking around better for a better doctor.

Is it common with this field for some of the doctors to be so so?

Hope you find someone with better reviews!

[FairProspects]

Well, now that you mention it, I went back and read the reviews better and some are pretty bad. Eh, guess I will be cancelling that apt and looking around better for a better doctor.

Is it common with this field for some of the doctors to be so so?

 

Yes. Unfortunately it is. I think VT (although some would say OT as well) is one of the worst offenders of this because while there is some documentation for VT's effectiveness for certain issues, VT in general is controversial and I don't know how well the field is regulated and/or certified. We had a COVD doc that was a complete snake oil salesman. He claimed that VT would cure everything and if ds still couldn't read after 18 months of VT then we were doing it wrong and there was NO way ds could be dyslexic, it was all in the eyes. Guess what - he was just wrong, wrong, wrong and I've heard of at least 3 other clients now with similar issues with this Dr. Some people get amazing results with VT and some people are just dyslexic and don't get much help at all from VT.

[PeterPan]

Well, now that you mention it, I went back and read the reviews better and some are pretty bad. Eh, guess I will be cancelling that apt and looking around better for a better doctor.

Is it common with this field for some of the doctors to be so so?

You wouldn't expect OBs to all be the same caliber or any other practitioner, so why eye docs?  They all have different amounts of specialization, areas and ages and problems they've focused on.  We got to a very large practice with multiple, multiple docs, and each has a niche.  

 

Yes. Unfortunately it is. I think VT (although some would say OT as well) is one of the worst offenders of this because while there is some documentation for VT's effectiveness for certain issues, VT in general is controversial and I don't know how well the field is regulated and/or certified. We had a COVD doc that was a complete snake oil salesman. He claimed that VT would cure everything and if ds still couldn't read after 18 months of VT then we were doing it wrong and there was NO way ds could be dyslexic, it was all in the eyes. Guess what - he was just wrong, wrong, wrong and I've heard of at least 3 other clients now with similar issues with this Dr. Some people get amazing results with VT and some people are just dyslexic and don't get much help at all from VT.

 

Fair hit on something really important.  I've talked with people also who had VT out the nose and no change because in fact it was dyslexia and not going to change.  We're not saying VT cures dyslexia.  We're saying VT is good for vision problems (convergence, focusing, etc.).  You can have one problem or both or neither.  It's a good thing to eliminate off the list.  Interestingly, as of the last few appts (may it stay this way), my ds, who has enough language problems that I'm wondering if he'll get a dyslexia label later, has NO developmental vision problems.  I took him when he was 3, 4, haven't taken him again for 5.

 

So I agree to be VERY cautious, take your time, research, don't rush.  Look at feedback, tour the place, ask to meet the therapists, see if the therapists are certified, etc. etc.  You take your time on the front-end because you don't want to have to repeat evals if you don't like the doc and change.  

[LaughingCat]

I think part of the problem is that, even though certified by COVD, each one is really doing their own thing.    For example,  I see people on here saying stuff like - a COVD Dr. will be able to help with primitive reflexes or neurodevelopmental (Pace).  But these are things that really have nothing to do with VISION therapy.

 

My office doesn't do PACE or primitive reflex stuff, but, they still stick in extra stuff - at least half an appointments worth.    I might appreciate this more if they told me that they were doing Pace or working on Primitive Reflexes or <some other googleable thing> because of <clearly defined test> that DD did that showed that she needed it (or heck, maybe even if they could just tell me exactly what to expect).  But no, it is apparently random - therapist's choice.

 

I have stuck with them because DD has shown clear improvement and because 1/2 of what they do is exactly the kind of thing you find when you google VT  (and uses apparatus I haven't been able to duplicate at home LOL!).    But I wish she could go for half the time and pay half the cost and just skip all this other stuff!  (Note: we are actually just starting a break from VT - on the Dr's recommendation but I had already decided we were going to take a break after this checkup regardless - partly for just this reason)

 

 

[PeterPan]

Well the reason they work on retained primitive reflexes is because if they don't the VT won't stick.  If you don't want them to do that, you can go do OT for a number of months and come back to VT, no prob.  On the PACE, well the reason they do that is visual processing, getting the skills to APPLY and be FUNCTIONAL.  It's not enough to do a worksheet.  They need to be able to use the skill in a realistic environment for real tasks.  That means they need to be able to use their vision WITH motor control tasks and WITH environmental distractions.  PACE and the distractions and EF work they bring into VT sessions are meant to get the skills functional.  Some kids have the processing part click when you fix the initial problem of the vision, and some kids need a lot more explicit work to get the there.  Just varies.

[LaughingCat]

To clarify, I did not mean to imply one way or the other whether primitive reflexes and/or neurological processing therapy should go with vision therapy - but it is my understanding that the COVD organization is only offering certification in vision therapy and not these others.    So that anything else that might be offered is solely dependent on what a particular provider wants to include or believes is useful.   At my local office  there has been no mention of primitive reflexes, neurological processing, or EF- even the stuff I complain about above is still very clearly vision related (processing/memory/etc).  

 

Note: And really my complaint is not that they shouldn't be doing such things -- it is mostly that those parts are done in a very 'fluffy' (and apparently random) way as compared to her convergence and tracking issues - which follow an obvious 'track' therapy wise, are the only thing included in the homework, and are regularly tested for improvement. 

[summerreading]

We have our new appointment tomorrow. I found this doc also through the COVD website. Her website is all about the difference between vision issues and dyslexia, so I thought to try her.

My son has been having problems with numbers too now. He went into a crying fit because he started a 100 number dot-to-dot in pen and saw some numbers in the wrong order and messed it up, well messed up according to him. Some other things with numbers like this.

 

Ok, so I obviously have no experience with a doctor visit like this. Can you give me things to look out for? Snake oil red flags?

[OneStepAtATime]

Listening in here....we did get an evaluation this week, but the doctor is not listed with the COVD and I have nothing to compare our experience to, so I don't know how much should have been done, compared to how much was actually done.  We start VT in a week and a half....

[summerreading]

Listening in here....we did get an evaluation this week, but the doctor is not listed with the COVD and I have nothing to compare our experience to, so I don't know how much should have been done, compared to how much was actually done.  We start VT in a week and a half....

 

Glad to hear you are making progress.

Will you still be pursing an NP eval? Is it better to still do both even if a vision problem is found?

 

I should probably go look for your threads...