Geometry: Chalkdust versus AoPS

[Hot Lava Mama]

Can you compare the two for me.  Not in terms of how they teach, I am familiar with both, but in terms of difficulty in concepts and "level" considered (ie: is one or both more the "honors" route or the "regular college bound route").  Additionally, does anyone know how most college view these two courses?  Would they see one of the as a higher achievement than the other?  I guess I am looking more for the "reputation" each has with regards to college professors views.

 

 

Just wondering.

Thanks

Hot Lava Mama

[regentrude]

I do not know Chalkdust and can not comment on it.

I do, however, know that AoPS is definitely not "regular college bound route" . It is honors with star. Most college students, even those going into science and engineering, have not received instruction at AoPS level.

[snowbeltmom]

I guess I am looking more for the "reputation" each has with regards to college professors views.

 

My guess is that most college professors will not be familiar with either program.  The admissions officers at some of the highly selective colleges are familiar with AoPS and have even held "Math Jams" on AoPS.

[regentrude]

My guess is that most college professors will not be familiar with either program.

 

That is probably correct. They would not really know about high school math curricula. 

And their opinion would not mater much anyway.

 

[Hot Lava Mama]

My reason for asking is that Ds, my math and science guy, is struggling with AoPS geometry.  I am going to switch to Chalkdust.  I was wondering if he was "stepping down" by moving to Chalkdust.  I guess the bottom line it that is was too hard for him.  With my help, he could eventually get the concept and understand, but it was taking a long time.  (Truth be told, it was super hard for me, too.  Some stuff we had to just move on because I couldn't understand, and therefore couldn't explain to him, even WITH the answer manual!)  We are only on chapter 2 at this point.  I think we gave it a good shot, but it is time to change. 

 

Any thoughts on this move?

 

[kiana]

If AOPS is too hard, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with switching to Chalkdust. Chalkdust is a very solid program.

 

Yes, it is a step down. So what? It's a step in the right direction for your student to understand and achieve. It is much better for a student to do well in an honors course than to not understand a super-honors course.

 

What the college professors think won't really matter, it will be what the admissions people think - and all they will see is 'geometry'.

[regentrude]

Well, if AoPS is not working, then you have to switch to something that is, irrespective of how curricula are perceived by somebody else. The important thing is to master the material. It does not matter whether anybody out there thinks it is "stepping down".

AoPS is great only for the students for whom it is a good fit.

[texasmama]

Subbing. :) (I own Chalkdust Geometry but my boys are currently using AoPS pre-A. )

[Hot Lava Mama]

Perhaps I am reading into this, but does this mean that Chalkdust is considered an honors class?

 

It is much better for a student to do well in an honors course than to not understand a super-honors course.

 

 

[jennynd]

I also own AOPS geometry and I will not even bother to let DS try it even though he is about finish AOPS intro Algebra.

AOPS gemotry IMO needs a lot patient, maturity which I don't think DS quite deveope that yet. DS even went through SM NEM algebra parts already, I still can not see him do that level of work. So, I will not feel any "less" if your kid struggle with it. I remeber someone said that is the most difficult book in AOPS series

I will however, still keep AOPS geometry ready. I will sneak one or 2 questions here and there just to get a feeling if he might be ready. DS is on the young side so I do plan down the road, we will still circle back to AOPS when he is more mature. But for now, I think he has enough to go on algbra 2 and pre Cal.

 

I do not own chaldust geometry , but I do have their PreA to Algebra2, I thought it is a very solid program.

[snowbeltmom]

 I remember someone said that is the most difficult book in AOPS series

 

 

:iagree: Both of my boys thought the geometry book was the most difficult in the series.

[Matryoshka]

I have AoPS Geometry and was planning to have dd use it next year when we're done with AoPS Intro Alg - I was even considering signing her up for the online course for Geometry.  She loves AoPS and is doing well with the book, but is also not flying through it with ease. 

 

Now you have me thinking I should have a plan B... how long do you think is worth giving the Geometry book a try?  Is there a particularly hard chapter?  Are the first two chapters representative, and if she didn't do well with those, we should find a plan B?  What would a good Plan B for Geometry be for a kid like this? 

[Luckymama]

I have AoPS Geometry and was planning to have dd use it next year when we're done with AoPS Intro Alg - I was even considering signing her up for the online course for Geometry. She loves AoPS and is doing well with the book, but is also not flying through it with ease.

 

Now you have me thinking I should have a plan B... how long do you think is worth giving the Geometry book a try? Is there a particularly hard chapter? Are the first two chapters representative, and if she didn't do well with those, we should find a plan B? What would a good Plan B for Geometry be for a kid like this?

Matryoshka, dd13 took the AoPS online class this year. The pace was blistering. I don't know if dd could have handled it if the class was during the academic year when she would have had more commitments (her AoPS class was March-Sept). She spent 1.5 hours every day doing geometry. The textbook and Alcumus work were so much easier than the weekly assigned problem sets! Some problems, no lie, took more than 3 hours to solve.

 

I feel like the chapters were of about equal difficulty (Ch 1 was easy). Dd hated Ch 16 transformations, had a piece of difficulty with the Ch 14 3d geometry just with tetrahedra, and found the analytic geometry and trigonometry chapters to be easier than the others.

 

Would you be open to her just doing the geometry book on her own or do you need her to take the class?

[snowbeltmom]

The pace was blistering. I don't know if dd could have handled it if the class was during the academic year when she would have had more commitments (her AoPS class was March-Sept). She spent 1.5 hours every day doing geometry. The textbook and Alcumus work were so much easier than the weekly assigned problem sets! Some problems, no lie, took more than 3 hours to solve.

 

Would you be open to her just doing the geometry book on her own or do you need her to take the class?

:iagree:

My oldest also took the class at the same age and had the same experience. He has taken all of the online classes up through and including pre-calc, and maintains that the geometry class was by far the most challenging class.

 

My younger son did not take the online class.  He just worked through the book along with Alcumus on his own.  I plan on the same for my daughter.

[Hot Lava Mama]

Well, if AoPS is not working, then you have to switch to something that is, irrespective of how curricula are perceived by somebody else. The important thing is to master the material. It does not matter whether anybody out there thinks it is "stepping down".

AoPS is great only for the students for whom it is a good fit.

 

Thanks for being my voice of reason, Regentrude.  I thought I was doing the right thing, but had a tiny voice of self-doubt that kept bugging me.  The bottom line is that if he is struggling in chapter 2, the later (and I assume harder) chapters will not be achievable.  I needed to just swing back to reality and realize that he just needs to master the information.  "How" he gets it isn't as important.

 

So, perhaps you know this, an earlier poster made some reference to stepping from a "super honors course" to an "honors course."  Do you know if Chalkdust is considered an honors course?  I'm not sure what the requirements are for an honors course.  Just curious.  (I suppose I should figure that out before I make his transcripts! :confused1: )

 

[8filltheheart]

Thanks for being my voice of reason, Regentrude.  I thought I was doing the right thing, but had a tiny voice of self-doubt that kept bugging me.  The bottom line is that if he is struggling in chapter 2, the later (and I assume harder) chapters will not be achievable.  I needed to just swing back to reality and realize that he just needs to master the information.  "How" he gets it isn't as important.

 

So, perhaps you know this, an earlier poster made some reference to stepping from a "super honors course" to an "honors course."  Do you know if Chalkdust is considered an honors course?  I'm not sure what the requirements are for an honors course.  Just curious.  (I suppose I should figure that out before I make his transcripts! :confused1: )

 

 

I have had 3 kids complete the CD geo course and I did not call it honors on the transcript.   But, I didn't end up calling AoPS honors either.    I went back and forth on the issue (drove myself crazy) and finally addressed it in our school profile.  

 

 

[kiana]

The requirements for honors are so nebulous and ill-defined that it's quite honestly a waste of time (imo) for homeschoolers to label anything as honors.

 

But Chalkdust is a very solid and decent high school course that will prepare him for any major he wants.

[Hot Lava Mama]

I have AoPS Geometry and was planning to have dd use it next year when we're done with AoPS Intro Alg - I was even considering signing her up for the online course for Geometry.  She loves AoPS and is doing well with the book, but is also not flying through it with ease. 

 

Now you have me thinking I should have a plan B... how long do you think is worth giving the Geometry book a try?  Is there a particularly hard chapter?  Are the first two chapters representative, and if she didn't do well with those, we should find a plan B?  What would a good Plan B for Geometry be for a kid like this? 

I'm not sure I have a good answer for you, but we started in August and had to "re-do" several sections in order for him to "get it."  My first thought was that either he had not mastered the concepts well enough and needed to review the concepts, or that it was such a different way of teaching that he just needed to keep plugging away and eventually it will click.  After going over the review section for the second chapter, he said he just doesn't understand the book and that he would rather try the Chalkdust course (we used Chalkdust for Algebra 1 and the course before that so he is familiar with them.)  This son is a very bright hard worker and doesn't really "give up" just because something is hard, so I took his comments to heart.  He just wasn't understanding it and was getting frustrated.  I felt like we had given it a fair chance, and that it just wasn't a good fit for him.  So, that was my "measure" of when to switch to plan B.

 

I can't speak as to how representative chapter 1 & 2 are of the book, but I am assuming that the later chapters get harder.  It's hard to tell just by looking forward in the book because of the style of teaching. 

 

Good luck!

Hot Lava Mama

 

[Hot Lava Mama]

The requirements for honors are so nebulous and ill-defined that it's quite honestly a waste of time (imo) for homeschoolers to label anything as honors.

 

But Chalkdust is a very solid and decent high school course that will prepare him for any major he wants.

 

Hmm, interesting.  I guess I never really thought I would label anything as "honors", anyways, because I figured it would be looked at suspiciously coming from "mommy grades."  I guess I subconsciously thought the same as you.

:)

Thanks!

Hot Lava Mama

 

[Matryoshka]

I'm not sure I have a good answer for you, but we started in August and had to "re-do" several sections in order for him to "get it."  My first thought was that either he had not mastered the concepts well enough and needed to review the concepts, or that it was such a different way of teaching that he just needed to keep plugging away and eventually it will click.  After going over the review section for the second chapter, he said he just doesn't understand the book and that he would rather try the Chalkdust course (we used Chalkdust for Algebra 1 and the course before that so he is familiar with them.)  This son is a very bright hard worker and doesn't really "give up" just because something is hard, so I took his comments to heart.  He just wasn't understanding it and was getting frustrated.  I felt like we had given it a fair chance, and that it just wasn't a good fit for him.  So, that was my "measure" of when to switch to plan B.

 

May I ask what exactly is so hard about the Geometry book vs. the other books?  I totally believe you guys - I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around what it is they're doing with it that's making it so much harder.  I'll admit that I found Geometry the easiest of any math course I took in school so that clouds my judgement....although I know that was probably an easy-peasy course compared to AoPS, but that could also be said of Algebra in school vs. AoPS, but somehow this book is even harder....  I know they must be using all the Algebra in the earlier book to apply to geometric constructs - is that part of it??  The teaching style must be roughly similar to the earlier books.  What have they done to this course to make it extra-difficult compared even to their other books?  Is it that they go way past the content in a standard Geometry text into much harder concepts?  But surely not in the first two chapters??

[regentrude]

May I ask what exactly is so hard about the Geometry book vs. the other books?  I totally believe you guys - I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around what it is they're doing with it that's making it so much harder. ...  I know they must be using all the Algebra in the earlier book to apply to geometric constructs - is that part of it??  The teaching style must be roughly similar to the earlier books.  What have they done to this course to make it extra-difficult compared even to their other books?  Is it that they go way past the content in a standard Geometry text into much harder concepts?  But surely not in the first two chapters??

 

For us, it has definitely nothing to do with applying the algebra. The problems involving a  lot of algebra are the easier ones, as are the topics that use a lot of equations (intro to trigonometry is much easier than some of the triangle problems)

 

The problems are just very difficult to puzzle out. A few months ago, I have sat for 3 hours over a triangle problem that I had solved with DD three years ago already.

In contrast to algebra where there are more-or-less systematic procedures one can follow to get a  problem started, geometry is more of an art: there is no algorithm, it involves a lot of trying different strategies, redrawing the diagram over and over (after you messed up the first one with several different tries involving colored extra lines and labeled angles, LOL)...

Maybe it is the less predictable nature that made it difficult for both my students and myself.

With 3-d geometry, DD and I have hit the limits of our spatial imagination; we both do not visualized well in 3d. DS is not quite there yet.

 

Btw, I do not think that they necessarily deal with harder concepts. But instead of a traditional textbook that gives a page of exercise where one concept is applied twenty times in exactly the same manner, they take that same concept and apply it in different guises to a wide range of seemingly unrelated problems, so that each requires a lot of thinking which of the standard concepts to apply and how. So, same concepts - just more complex and less obvious problems.

We look at it as gymnastics for the mind.

[LNC]

Chalkdust geometry assignments list additonal problems for honors course students. So, I am labeling it as honors geometry.

[daijobu]

May I ask what exactly is so hard about the Geometry book vs. the other books?  

 

I haven't worked through the geometry book yet, but I'm assuming it's similar to a lot of the MathCounts geometry problems I've been working on lately.  Solving many of these problems requires you to draw additional lines to the diagrams to create new similar triangles that weren't there previously.  Or, if you are like me, you create a new similar triangle that is of no use at all.  "Seeing" these similar triangles requires practice, good diagram labeling, and sometimes tilting your head a little bit.  

 

Solving problems involving circles usually require drawing additional radii that weren't previously diagrammed.  But where?  Which ones make sense and move your closer to the solution?  Can you draw a radius that creates a similar triangle (see above), LOL!  

 

There are many, many geometric properties that are easy to forget.  Like the angle bisector...I always forget that one.  Then there's the several about secants.  Ugh, secants.  I think similar triangles are involved with that one, too.  You wouldn't believe how many properties of trapezoids there are, and I'm not even talking about isosceles trapezoids, but any old trapezoids.  

 

I love geometry, and have really enjoyed doing these MC problems the past year.  It truly does get easier with practice.  

 

ETA: and don't get me started on 3D shapes inscribed inside of other 3D shapes.  That requires finding cross sections, sometimes straight through the middle, sometimes at some weird angle.