Any insight into dd7 (writing)

[Kuovonne]

So I'm going out on a limb here to describe the relationship my dd7 has with writing.

I don't have any of her writing samples on hand, but I will try to dig up some.

I know that she is not gifted, but I'm not sure if she's normal.

Maybe someone will have some insights on her?

 

Her handwriting is atrocious. She *can* write neatly, but refused to do so. Her spelling is horrible but getting better. I taught her to type so that I wouldn't have to see her handwriting and so she could use spell-check. She is definitely not accelerated in these areas.

 

Although she spends most of her money on candy, she spends a surprisingly large portion of her money on blank notebooks. She fills these notebooks with writing, most of which I am not allowed to see.

 

Every day she is required to draw a picture and write something in her journal. I never give her a prompt or critique the entry. She has used this format to retell several fairy tales, to invent her own fairy tales, and to describe her day. Often she'll continue the same story across several days.

 

Earlier this week I found out that she was perusing a book of Christina Rossetti's poems (not a kid version) when she insisted on reading aloud to us from it. Tonight I found the book in her bed along with a notebook where she had written a poem obviously inspired by Rossetti. It was an awful poem, but had some lovely phrases. (In general I think that very few early elementary students can produce decent poetry.)

 

She begged me to let her enter an essay contest this fall. She worked on it tirelessly for several days. We even got a study room in the library so she could work on it when her sister was at dance. The word count limit was 400 words, and she insisted on using every word. I had to convince her to cut an entire paragraph so her entry would not be disqualified. This is the contest where she won first place.

 

Last spring in first grade, she entered a story writing contest. She did not place, but I thought her story made more sense that other entries that did place. At least one story that placed was mostly a series of random events. DD's story had a conflict, plot, and resolution, albeit very rudimentary and silly.

 

On her own she started browsing an online encyclopedia and decided to write a report on gorillas. She came up with a paragraph before anyone realized what she was doing. She abandoned the project soon thereafter.

 

She claims to hate reading. She knew she would have to sit around for an hour today when her sister was at dance, but she would rather be bored than bring a book. She can read, but usually sticks to the same Magic Tree House books.

 

When I ask her to type a text for me on my phone when I am driving, she will take my short message (on our way) and expand it to include what store we went to, what we bought, when we expect to arrive, and heartfelt apologies for running late.

 

Her sentence structure and vocabulary are still juvenile. She leaves out necessary information and has illogical statements in her stories.

 

So far her writing instruction has include spelling and MCT's Grammar Island. I gave up copywork long ago because it wasn't worth the fights.

 

How is she writing so much, so well, with so little instruction and so little reading?

 

She still has a lot to learn before her writing is mature, but how much guidance should I give her, considering what she has done so far, and the fact that she is *very* resistant to instruction?

 

Is it okay to continue to delay writing instruction? If so, for how long?

She seems to be doing many traditional writing projects on her own.

 

If I start giving her writing assignments, is it okay if she types everything?

 

She can have decent handwriting when she wants to, which is almost never.

Do I need to crack down on her handwriting, or can I safely ignore it to avoid constant battles over handwriting?

 

There is a lot of pressure in my co-op to put my kids in its IEW class.

So far I have resisted because I dislike some aspects of IEW. Would it be such a bad thing to give in to peer pressure and stick them in the class?

 

Thanks for reading.

 

p.s. Was I right to put this post on this board vs. the general board?

[Kuovonne]

Here is the composition DD7 wrote for the essay contest.

There were over 100 entries in four age categories spread across K-12.

DD7 was in the K-4th grade category. I do not know how many were in her category.

She won first place in her category.

 

I helped with spelling and punctuation. I also pointed out places where organization was missing, but left the actual rearrangement up to her.

 

She typed the entire composition from beginning to end.

 

The prompt was "Who would you like to meet from the Renaissance?"

 

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writing sample deleted

 

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[Harriet Vane]

She is 7yo?

 

Her handwriting and her spelling are supposed to be atrocious at that age. Just continue practicing lots with both. No need to panic until she is a bit older.

 

Her essay is advanced, imho.

 

For a strong, natural writer (as she is), IEW would prove frustrating because it focuses too much attention on microscopic details. Much of the exercises included in IEW will feel arbitrary to her (things like adding in adjectives, for example).

 

I am not sure what program to recommend. My daughter is much like yours. Because I am an editor and tutor writing, I have always just taught my own dd without a program. My son uses SWB's WWE. My daughter needs to be able to write, and then edit on a grand scale.

[8filltheheart]

That is definitely advanced writing for a 7 yr old.   :)  I am with Harriet, though.   I don't have any recommendations b/c I have never found any I like and I simply teach them.  Perhaps an easier approach would be self-education and then use what you know to help her revise and improve her writing skills and simply progress forward in refining her approach.  (that is basically what I do.)

[MomatHWTK]

I have an artist in my house.  She is very independent though- she will look at someone else's work and replicate it if she wants to but not as a study.  Standard 'by the book' style art lessons where we would look at an artists' style and then make our own just didn't work with her.  What has worked has been allowing her to simply view a wide range of art and providing her with technique classes. 

 

Your DD is still young so she might not be ready for a lot of heavy duty technique (grammar) classes but it will come.  She will probably catch on quickly and you will need to be prepared to accelerate language arts studies in general.  I would go forward with an introduction to grammar with the goal to be exposure not mastery and then let her enjoy classes on technique at whatever level she can handle. 

 

I like this class:

https://www.coursera.org/course/basicwriting

 

You might also take a look at the Purdue OWL materials. If you find good writing materials that are too advanced in the language used, study them yourself and offer a running translation.  ;)  ("What he means is, when you write you should...")  At this point though, don't make it a class, offer it as something available if she wants to pursue it. 

 

 

FWIW my 9 y.o. is taking a live art class via internet this year, but she has specifically told me that she does not like it when I refer to the class as "school."  Apparently thinking of her passion as schoolwork harshes her mellow.  :glare:

 

 

[Kuovonne]

I snooped on DD7's iPad. Here is her paragraph about Gorillas copied exactly. She commented that it had stuff that was weird and didn't belong. I also noticed that she invented some facts that are not in the encyclopedia article. This project was completely self initiated and completed entirely on her own. I have no idea what to do with it. I mean, I know that I should do absolutely nothing with this particular piece, but should I try to get her to write similar pieces for school so that I can help her revise them?

 

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Writing sample deleted

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[Kuovonne]

I have an artist in my house. She is very independent though- she will look at someone else's work and replicate it if she wants to but not as a study. Standard 'by the book' style art lessons where we would look at an artists' style and then make our own just didn't work with her. What has worked has been allowing her to simply view a wide range of art and providing her with technique classes.

DD sounds similar. She is very resistant to instruction in anything. She can't wait to be done with school so she can play with dolls or craft. So I have delayed writing instruction to avoid head-butting. I was pretty sure her writing was at least on grade level, and that is how I justified my educational neglect.

 

Your DD is still young so she might not be ready for a lot of heavy duty technique (grammar) classes but it will come. She will probably catch on quickly and you will need to be prepared to accelerate language arts studies in general. I would go forward with an introduction to grammar with the goal to be exposure not mastery and then let her enjoy classes on technique at whatever level she can handle.

 

I am using MCT's Grammar Island and Practice Island with her for grammar. So she is already getting grammar instruction. I don't think that she is getting enough grammar to have any effect on her writing, but she needs to know these foundational concepts first. She is nowhere near ready for Town level, and I don't know of any other grammar programs that would fit this particular kid.

[Kuovonne]

Something else I found on DD7's iPad. I had *no idea* this was here until I started snooping.

How does she come up with this stuff?

 

**************

 

Writing sample deleted

[Kuovonne]

Here is her poem inspired by Christina Rossetti.

It does not look like a poem (no rhyme or line breaks),

but both of us still consider it to be a poem.

 

-----------

 

writing sample deleted

[Kuovonne]

Can someone please tell me they have a child with similar writing? I know I am not alone, but it feels that way.

How have you addressed the issue? How did that work out?

What can I expect in the upcoming years? How have you nurtured such a kid?

 

Most of the samples of advanced writing that I have seen tend to be creative writing of stories.

However this girl is all over the place. She is writing non-fiction, poetry, and stories!

She vacillates between hiding her writing from me and insisting that I listen to it.

She has had *no* formal writing instruction!

 

I was a technical writer in my life before kids, but I write boring concrete prose.

The only other experience I have with teaching writing is working with her older sister.

I am decent at correcting mechanics and organization, but not so great with coming

up with ideas or expressing them creatively. I *can* look at a piece of writing and

articulate why it works or doesn't work, but not to a kid who doesn't have the technical vocabulary.

[Cosmos]

Wait. Does she know you are posting these things? These are her private writings (some of them). She might be mortified at the idea of having them posted on a public forum. The essay is a great sample that she obviously is ready to share. There's no need to "snoop" for more.

[sunnyday]

I think that like with most forms of acceleration, you meet her at her level. I see Bravewriter in your list of programs you use; I would consider her to be in the Faltering Ownership stage of development as a writer. She CARES about her writing, and IDENTIFIES it, which is why she CRITICIZES and PROTECTS it. I agree with Cosmos that you really need to respect those wishes, to keep her intimate words private. That would be the first step in nurturing her as a writer.

 

I think the synthesis between grammar, spelling, and writing will come as her mental development approaches more of the Logic stage, where her brain gets better at bringing together disparate skills and concepts into a cohesive whole. I'd keep up with the O-G spelling and the MCT grammar, but not require that those skills be applied to written content except maybe if you're working specifically on revision.

 

I'd invite her to choose a piece a month to take through the revising process, a la Bravewriter.

 

I'd consider adding a program for instruction in how to build interesting sentences, like the Killgallon sentence composing I've seen so much about. If you want other instructional aids, the Bravewriter Arrow products or any of the online classes that cover a wide range of ages would be pretty intriguing to me.

 

I'd feel lucky, and would just work to keep her joy in the process! Keep reading aloud from great literature so she can hear the rhythms of interesting language!

 

Good luck, and try to enjoy the journey. :)

[Kuovonne]

I see Bravewriter in your list of programs you use; I would consider her to be in the Faltering Ownership stage of development as a writer.

She might be in the Faltering Ownership phase of writing. However, the Brave Writer web site says that that level of writing is generally ages 10-12. There is no way she can think at the level of kids that age. I do own the Brave Writer products for younger ages, Jot it Down and Partnership Writing. She already does projects from both products on her own. I don't see the point of doing them formally with her. My involvement would frustrate her because she wants to do her own thing.

 

I'd invite her to choose a piece a month to take through the revising process, a la Bravewriter.

Ah, but then I would have to give her a writing assignment first. I'm still pondering how to do that.

 

I'd consider adding a program for instruction in how to build interesting sentences, like the Killgallon sentence composing I've seen so much about. If you want other instructional aids, the Bravewriter Arrow products or any of the online classes that cover a wide range of ages would be pretty intriguing to me.

I have Killgallon, and I think it is too difficult for her. I'm not willing to pay the expense of an online class, and I don't think an online writing class would be developmentally appropriate for this seven year old.

 

Keep reading aloud from great literature so she can hear the rhythms of interesting language!

Hum. I stopped reading aloud to her several years ago. That's another reason I find her situation perplexing. No-one reads aloud to her and she is adverse to reading on her own most of the time.

 

Good luck, and try to enjoy the journey. :)

Thanks!

[Kuovonne]

Re: me posting examples of DD7's writing.

 

I am not asking DD7 permission to post her writing, and I don't intend to tell her that I have done so.

Nor will I tell her that I was snooping.

 

If this were a math thread, people would have no problem posting examples of

problems that the child worked without asking first. In fact, most would say

that it is vital describing the type of math a child is doing in order to give feedback.

Is it a six year old doing multi-digit multiplication, or a six year old figuring out how to word problems

typical of a 5th grader? Big difference.

 

How can I get feedback without posting examples of her work?

My vague descriptions of her writing would be useless, especially considering

the ambiguity present in evaluating if a piece is on-level or not.

Sure, I could say she doesn't always use simple sentence patterns,

or that she uses descriptive adjectives, but that would be extremely subjective of me

and not informative to other people who might have different expectations.

[MomatHWTK]

Honestly, I think you are waaaaayyyy to worried about figuring out whether your DD is advanced or not.  She's 7. It is not as if she will fail to ever fully flourish as a writer if you don't do everything right.  In fact, I personally believe that with creative gifts in particular you can't stop the child from developing.  Now ideally as a parent you educate yourself in the subject, your provide resources and allow time to explore the child's gift but at least my own experience has been that whether I am involved or not my creative child will create.

 

I would leave her journals alone.  When she's ready to share she will.  If she finds out you've been digging into to her work before she's ready to share it, she may choose to stop.  Creating something out of the imagination is nothing like working a math problem.  If you worry and fret over where she is, how she ranks and what is "normal" you may kill her dream.  Give her the tools to soar and then sit back and gaze on in amazement. 

 

I can't begin to control my DD's work, and I can't begin to imagine how she does what she does.  I can let her know that I support her. 

 

I wanted to also suggest that you consider reading a few biographies/autobiographies of famous writers.  One of the things my DD likes best about her online art classes is getting to actually see a real artist who makes a living creating art.  The artists she encounter in the class and in real life and she communicate on a level that us regular folks just don't get. 

[Harriet Vane]

I agree. I think you are obsessing over this too much and are in danger of killing the love.

 

I am concerned that a child like this, who clearly loves words and has a feel for beautiful phrases and images, yet does not like reading. My first question is to ask why not? Is it hard for her--is she still sounding out words? If it is still hard for her, then she may feel frustrated that reading is too slow (doesn't allow her to get to the story quickly enough). Does she have any difficulties with reading? For example, I had a writing student once who loved story and could write or tell beautiful stories, but who had physical reading issues.

 

However, given the fact that your dd did well with researching and writing her gorilla report, it would seem she can read fluently. So why does she resist reading?

 

In your shoes, I would emphasize the following for right now:

 

--Require more reading. Do not "ruin" the reading with comprehension questions. For now, just allow her to enjoy. Consider both having her read to herself at least half an hour a day, and also listening to books on tape or books read aloud by you. She clearly loves story and words, so go ahead and build fluency with reading now. This will only help her as both a writer and as a student.

 

--Continue allowing her to write for fun. Do not grade everything she writes. Only grade/provide technical feedback for official assignments (like for the essay contest).

 

--Consider SWB's Writing With Ease curriculum.

 

--Start spelling and grammar as of third grade. Take it easy. There is plenty of time.

 

--Don't worry so much about her handwriting or technical skills right now. She is only seven years old. The mistakes you posted here in her writing do not concern me in the least. Her expression and phrasing are good and show promise. Just relax.

[Pen]

Yes, my son wrote somewhat like your dd when he was very young--though each in their own way, own voice and subjects and so on.  His writing was rather squashed by brick and mortar school experience and it has taken awhile to get to where he is back to wanting to do it.  

 

Personally, I would let her continue as she is doing for now.  And I would be there to support that as she wants you to be--if she wants you to listen, listen. If she is not ready to share a piece yet, you can offer to listen when she is ready and tell her you look forward to that time. If some pieces are never at a point where she wants to share them, that is fine too.  Which is what I think you are probably doing right now!  But I would not feel bad about it, or let that other parents are doing different things or IEW influence you.

 

 I would not enroll her in IEW, or any other program, at least not at this stage. Come high school, she will need, one way or another, to be able to start writing in a way that will work in college if she is going to go to college. She may find her own way to that, but if not, I would insist on some standard essay writing curriculum at the high school level.  Or if she stops writing, I think you could insist that she continue to do it, one way or another on a daily or near daily basis. It is already advanced/excellent/unique for her age, and will probably continue to develop if you just let her do it.  On the other hand if she asks for a writing class or curriculum or help, I would help her to locate what she thinks will help. Until then, or high school academic writing stage, if she were my daughter, I would let her develop on her own trajectory.

 

Or to put it in homeschool terms, when it comes to writing and probably all of language arts,  I would let her do student initiated learning -- sort of like "Unschool" with you being her support and facilitator as she asks you to be.  Perhaps with the one non Unschool proviso being that she needs to do some writing of her choice each day, cannot decide to opt out entirely--which a radical Unschooler would say is not Unschool at all, so terms like "student propelled" or "student initiated" learning are probably more correct for this approach.

 

If she wants help to revise and edit certain writings or all at some stage, I would give her that help (she is lucky you have skills in that area), but not insist on it. If it turns out that as "mom" she would feel more comfortable with someone else as her editor, I'd try to find her someone else, also, it could be that sometimes she would write things where psychologically that would be more comfortable for her even it editing is something you have professional level skills in.

 

If she enjoys MCT, I would continue with that for grammar. I would also have some grammar guide or guides like Everything You Need to Know About Grammar (I think is one title) available where she could, if she wanted, decide to read it, but I would not make her do so. 

 

In the student initiated approach to language arts, I would ask her what she would like to do right now, if anything, for spelling, handwriting, typing and go with what she wants. I would not grade anything in LA area if you grade at all. I would ask her what she would like to do for reading--maybe something different than she has, maybe read-alouds still. ....  A 7 yo child who is reading adult poetry and nonfiction selections about gorillas seems to have her own ideas about reading and nothing about them seems wrong to me--just maybe different than what some of her peers are doing.

[Pen]

Re: me posting examples of DD7's writing.

 

I am not asking DD7 permission to post her writing, and I don't intend to tell her that I have done so.

Nor will I tell her that I was snooping.

 

If this were a math thread, people would have no problem posting examples of

problems that the child worked without asking first. In fact, most would say

that it is vital describing the type of math a child is doing in order to give feedback.

Is it a six year old doing multi-digit multiplication, or a six year old figuring out how to word problems

typical of a 5th grader? Big difference.

 

How can I get feedback without posting examples of her work?

My vague descriptions of her writing would be useless, especially considering

the ambiguity present in evaluating if a piece is on-level or not.

Sure, I could say she doesn't always use simple sentence patterns,

or that she uses descriptive adjectives, but that would be extremely subjective of me

and not informative to other people who might have different expectations.

 

I agree with this.  It is much easier to understand the situation with the examples!  The vague descriptions in the other thread were nowhere near as helpful as the examples.  Once you have received answers for a week or two, or however long you feel you need, you could go back and edit them out if you choose.

[sunnyday]

I remember being about 7 years old and receiving a pretty bound journal as a gift. It came from a family friend, who was a high school English teacher and almost like a second mother to me, and she gave it to me "so I could write down more of those wonderful stories I create". That was the inscription in the journal. But  I never wrote again, not for fun. Well, I remember a short piece of sci-fi I wrote at 9 or 10, several pages long, which I was actively trying to make into a "story that people will be amazed that a young person wrote it". :o  It was absolutely horrible. I realized it was horrible when I was 12 or 13, and I revised it a bit, which only made it worse because I threw in a little more vocabulary and destroyed the youthful naiveté of it. Other than that I wrote only when assigned.

 

So in my experience, you can damage a young enthusiastic writer by making too much of their talent, too soon. Also by making the writing into a chore instead of an expression. From what I know of IEW, that would do the trick (of squelching her).

 

You don't have to give her a writing assignment in order to invite her to try out the revision phase of writing. Just ask her to look through some things she's written of a paragraph or more, and see if she wants to practice the next step to make her sentences more careful and her punctuation and stuff correct, so that her meaning comes through to other people who might read her words. She can choose something she is enthusiastic about and wants to expand on and/or improve, or something she is meh about and doesn't mind gutting.

[Kuovonne]

First off, I would like to thank everyone who has provided feedback on this thread.

If nothing else, I can now safely believe that DD7 is accelerated.

 

Honestly, I think you are waaaaayyyy to worried about figuring out whether your DD is advanced or not. She's 7.

The main reason I want to know if DD7 is accelerated (not gifted or advanced) is because I want to know where to go to connect with other people with a similar situation. If she isn't accelerated then I should not be posting on this board. If she is mildly accelerated maybe I could post on the general board and get responses that will guide me. If she is more than mildly accelerated, posting on the general board would probably get me flamed.

 

She's 7. It is not as if she will fail to ever fully flourish as a writer if you don't do everything right.

I an NOT concerned with getting everything right. I am concerned about DOING NOTHING at all, which is where I am at right now. Part of me says that she needs instruction; I know that she will not be able to achieve exit level writing without instruction at some point in time. I do not know if that time is now.

 

I would leave her journals alone. When she's ready to share she will. If she finds out you've been digging into to her work before she's ready to share it, she may choose to stop.

The journal I referred to is part of her school work. She knows that she is required to show it to me every day. I do not critique her entries at all, even though many of her entries are along the lines of "I do not know what to write so I am going to write this." or "Today is a day. I want to be done with school." I NEVER critique ANY of her writing, because so far the only writing she does for school is her journal entry. (The essay contest was an exception, and entering it was 100% her idea.)

 

If you worry and fret over where she is, how she ranks and what is "normal" you may kill her dream.

I worry and fret over her because I want to give her a good education. I worry and fret over whether she is "normal" because I want to know what to do with her. When I started homeschooling when my oldest DD entered kindergarten, I looked up what skills to teach a kinder kid. When I found out that she had already mastered the academic exit skills for kinder, I breathed a huge sigh of relief because I then knew that I didn't have to worry about teaching her anything that year. Similarly, I wanted to know if DD is accelerated so I could feel more comfortable continuing to neglect this part of her education.

 

Give her the tools to soar and then sit back and gaze on in amazement.

I am trying to figure out how to give her those tools and what they are.

I taught her how to type. I convinced my husband to spend a much needed $400+

on an iPad to give over to a seven year old for her exclusive use so she could type

on it whenever she wanted. I surround her with books, even though she rarely reads them.

I help her when she wants to enter writing contests.

I let her continue to use horrible handwriting when I know she is capable

of far better handwriting. I am teaching her spelling as fast as I can.

I am teaching her grammar as fast as I can. In order to do those things I

had to give up on the handwriting.

 

But are these the right tools? Am I handicapping her by not insisting that she

use decent handwriting (at the expense of spelling and grammar)?

Am I handicapping her by failing to get her to erase neatly when she does any

sort of handwriting across the board. I know that her messy handwriting is

going to bite her in the tookus when she has to learn multi-digit multiplication.

Is forcing her to be neater now worth the drama? Would it even be successful?

How do I decide these tradeoffs? Or does it not matter?

 

I can't begin to control my DD's work, and I can't begin to imagine how she does what she does. I can let her know that I support her.

If it were art, I would plop tools in front of her and let her fly. That is exactly what

I do with her older sister's art. However, learning art is optional, and (for me) easier

to outsource. Writing is different. Writing is not optional; it is essential. And based on

an earlier thread somewhere on this forum the consensus is that one *cannot* produce

a good exit level writer without some form of instruction.

 

I agree. I think you are obsessing over this too much and are in danger of killing the love.

 

I suppose I am obsessing over this too much. I normally don't give it this much thought.

However the result has been giving this child no formal instruction. That doesn't feel right.

Most people would have no problem giving writing instruction to a chid with her level of

handwriting, spelling, and reading.

 

I am concerned that a child like this, who clearly loves words and has a feel for beautiful phrases and images, yet does not like reading. My first question is to ask why not?

DD7 has absolutely no discernible difficulties with reading. She can read more challenging books (like the ones for DD10's book club); she just rarely does it. I have no idea why she dislikes reading. She is the only one in the family who dislikes reading.

 

In your shoes, I would emphasize the following for right now:

...

 

I require her to read for 30 minutes every day. These can be torture sessions for her.

I never ask her comprehension questions or require her to do anything more than read.

I suggest books but don't insist on any specific books.

 

I could not stop her from writing her for fun if I tried.

I grade NOTHING that she writes.

 

She begged me to teach her spelling when she was four years old

because no-one could read what she wrote (including herself). So I did and still do.

I also started grammar last year (first grade) and she LOVES MCT.

 

--Don't worry so much about her handwriting or technical skills right now. She is only seven years old. The mistakes you posted here in her writing do not concern me in the least. Her expression and phrasing are good and show promise. Just relax.

Thanks for confirming that I don't need to worry about her mechanics.

I don't worry about her spelling, capitalization, or punctuation at all.

I do worry about her illogical thinking, but that's a separate issue.

 

I want to not worry about her handwriting. I want to hear someone say

that they had a child who wrote profusely with horrible handwriting, did

nothing about it, and the child had no problems writing the essay portion

of the SAT. I know that is an extreme example, but I hope you get the point.

On the other hand, if someone had a similar child, did nothing with handwriting,

and the child struggled later on, I want to know that as well. Or, if I knew how

*long* to not worry about it, or a milestone to look for before worrying that would

be helpful.

 

I know that reluctant writers often have bad handwriting, but they work on it,

and eventually have decent handwriting. But my DD7 is writing reams and

reams in bad handwriting and building bad habits that a reluctant writer wouldn't.

 

 

It looks like many of you advise limiting how much I critique her writing.

That implies doing *some* critiquing, which I don't currently do at all because I don't

give her any writing assignments. That implies that I should start giving

her writing assignments. Right?

 

I purchased and previewed several writing programs when trying to figure

out what to do with her older sister. None of these programs seem to fit her

particular combination of immaturity and ability level, and my teaching style.

Perhaps I am too picky in what I want in a writing program, and I should just

pick one and start doing it?

 

If I could teach writing the way 8FillTheHeart does, I would, but I can't.

I think that method would be perfect for both my kids.

[Kuovonne]

You don't have to give her a writing assignment in order to invite her to try out the revision phase of writing. Just ask her to look through some things she's written of a paragraph or more, and see if she wants to practice the next step to make her sentences more careful and her punctuation and stuff correct, so that her meaning comes through to other people who might read her words. She can choose something she is enthusiastic about and wants to expand on and/or improve, or something she is meh about and doesn't mind gutting.

Eek. This idea *terrifies* me.

 

The idea of *telling* her to revise something that is not an assignment (even if she gets to choose the piece) feels like far more of a violation that me posting her writing here. Of course if she asks for my help, I give it, but that is different and not dependable.

[Kuovonne]

Yes, my son wrote somewhat like your dd when he was very young--though each in their own way, own voice and subjects and so on.

 

Thank you for your advice and for understanding why I felt the need to add DD7's writing examples to this thread.

 

I would insist on some standard essay writing curriculum at the high school level.

...

Until then, or high school academic writing stage, if she were my daughter, I would let her develop on her own trajectory.

 

Thanks for the concrete statements about high school writing.

 

Or to put it in homeschool terms, when it comes to writing and probably all of language arts, I would let her do student initiated learning -- sort of like "Unschool"

 

I personally won't unschool spellling or grammar for her, but yes, I am basically unschooling writing.

Thank you for the permission and the explicit use of the term.

[ErinE]

I do think you should concentrate on penmanship. I've heard too many stories of illegible handwriting. Have you considered requiring copywork? Ask for 2-3 sentences so you can closely monitor her handwriting, but expose her to descriptive language. E.B. White's books are fantastic for her age.

[Pen]

On your handwriting question: I myself had lousy handwriting--so did my whole class since it had not been taught--and then in 7-9th grade developed very readable handwriting and did very well on SAT, AP essays and so on (went to Princeton). My brother has/had illegible writing and went to Middlebury--he deals with it by typing. My sister, also with illegible writing, went to UC Berkeley--and became a doctor a profession known for illegible writing.

 

My son is not of the age yet for SAT etc., but he went from fairly illegible printing to quite legible between age 10 and age 11 after I had given up on it back in grade 2 and deciding I would not worry about it till grade 7, that being when I myself addressed handwriting with no seeming bad long term consequences.  He does not do cursive still, and perhaps never will. 

 

OTOH, I do insist on math being legible!!!   I see that as a totally separate issue from handwriting.  We had some 4 vs. 9 unclarity just the other day, and I insisted it be done legibly.  We also fight out the showing steps of work in math so that his logic can be followed by me as checker and by him in doing the problems. It is hard to convince him since at the early stages of algebra they are easy to do in one's head still, much of the time. I think it is even hard for him to understand and separate the steps, since what to me are several steps seem to him to all be part of one step.

 

Where I am, 7 is the first year where school is even legally required, and she, your dd7, is truly advanced compared to most 7 year olds.

[MomatHWTK]

nm

 

 

[Pen]

Thank you for your advice and for understanding why I felt the need to add DD7's writing examples to this thread.

 

 

Thanks for the concrete statements about high school writing.

 

Yes, I do think that is the serious time for when to work on academic writing skills, but also want to add that some of the other suggestions like sentence composing might be appropriate to offer sooner--but I think more like at age 10-12 type sooner, not at age 7, no matter how advanced she is.

 

 

I personally won't unschool spellling or grammar for her, but yes, I am basically unschooling writing.

Thank you for the permission and the explicit use of the term.

 

If she likes MCT then I think it is a super program so that should work to fit both of you (we like it too but only do the reading, not the parsing).  

 

I'd like to think it is more a 'suggestion' of the term--you do not need permission so far as I know.  But my son also tends to balk at things that are deemed "school" so anything he does on his own I go with an unschoolish sort of approach--and try as much as possible not even to say the word when possible.  Spelling, you said she asked for anyway, so again, that fits both what she wants, and what you think she should have.

 

Like you I have also worried some about practicing wrong spelling or illegible writing, but have been surprised to see that it seems to be coming together of itself much more than I would have expected with no direct work on it.  This is especially so for the penmanship, but also I am now surprised to see words correctly spelled that I would have thought he could not spell--reminding me a bit of how your daughter had something like Rwanda right and some easier word wrong.  And I love the unknown "wh" word in the poem, by the way.  I do not know what it means, or what she means, but it has a good sound and feeling to it as poetry.

 

For reading, in case it should help, I have several times given bedtime changes from 7PM at age 7, gradually up to now 9PM at age 11 allowing reading as the thing to do in the last half hour or hour before bedtime, otherwise having an earlier bedtime prevail, I also let ds loose at a Scholastic books bookfair with some money and let him get and read whatever he wanted. Due to dyslexia, he did not read at all at your daughter's age, but now reads voraciously, and other than still waiting for the last Percy Jackson book due out next year has declared the children's section all too babyish. I do also still read to him aloud. Generally, I read aloud the things I think would be good for him to know about (both fiction and nonfiction) but that he is unlikely to want to read himself, though also sometimes just because it is a "comfort" activity.  If she is still not reading much at 4th-5th grade, I'd then insist on some set amount per day or per week or however you would want to do that.  But if she is reading about her interests, be they gorillas or what have you, she will be expanding skills without making it unpleasant for her or a fight for both of you. We saw the movie Gifted Hands and my son agreed at 5th grade to do like Ben Carson and get something of his own interest from library and read it each week. He has a lot more retention and reads at a higher level when he is reading about things he is interested in than whatever some program thinks he should be learning.

[acurtis75]

Since you asked...

 

In your situation I would consider continuing with age appropriate instruction on handwriting (copy work), spelling and grammar instruction and just let her write what she wants when she wants. FLL & WWE are good options for this. I believe in the writing instruction book that SWB wrote it discusses the idea that the creative process of writing and the mechanics do getting it on paper are distinct skills.

 

In your daughters case the ideas and creativity seem advanced. The execution and mechanics seem more age appropriate. Teaching her to type and/or use voice recognition software was a good way to help her write down her thoughts. Give her lots of time to write and be creative and then do grade level work on the mechanics and she'll be fine.

[lewelma]

I am where you are with my just-turned-10 year old.  *How* specifically to help a very asynchronous learner when no program seems to be right?  *How* specifically should I encourage but not over encourage; teach but not over teach; leave alone or guide?  It is a very hard road.  You are definitely not alone. 

 

First of all, no one on this board cares one whit if you post here about an average, accelerated, or gifted child. You absolutely do not need to prove anything!  People just post where they get the best responses for their specific situation. So welcome!

 

Next, here is what I would recommend to you and what I am doing with my younger:

 

1) Ask *her* how you can help her improve her writing.  What does she want to work on?  Does she even know what is out there that could help her?  Show her options - figurative language, advanced style, story sequence charts, etc and see what she wants to do.  I really think you need to involve her in making some goals.  They don't have to be super formal, but when you are in the middle of teaching her something, you can just casually refer to the fact that *she* wanted to improve xxx and here is the material that will help her.

 

2) Separate out the different skills and do NOT call them all writing.  Spelling, grammar, poetry, composition, handwriting.  She has to work on them all.  Please no flaming, but I do NOT give you permission to skip handwriting (sorry, but I don't).  She is 7, it will not magically get better.  I have been there twice!  What I have found the most effective is to make it seem cool and grown up by having her design her own 'style'. Get out all you old letters or some fonts on the internet, and discuss how each one makes you *feel.*  Show her her options - slant, spacing between letters, round/oval letters, loops/curles, cute little hearts for dots on the 'i's' I don't care, but make it fun!  Then have her try this and that to find what she likes and how she thinks others will view it. Writing can be about expressing your inner personality, so make it so. After this process which could take a couple of weeks, require that she work on her style for 10 minutes (with a buzzer) everyday.  Have her critique it and adjust it to what she likes.  Don't call it handwriting!  She is working on developing her 'style.'  This approach has worked very well with both of my boys.

 

3) The biggest thing you can do to help her with her writing is to get her to love reading.  What does she like?  Perhaps she prefers nonfiction, I had one boy who definitely did.  Perhaps she likes to team-read or co-read or whatever it is called, where you each read the book independently and then discuss it.  My older is definitely this way. Listening to audio books or to you reading will also help her writing.  She will advance more quickly if she truly internalizes good writing and style.  And I have read that listening is actually better than silent reading in helping your writing, because you have to hear *each* word and don't just skim/skip/breeze through.

 

4) For things she dislikes, you need to find some sort of motivator/reward.  For one child it was rings on a paper chain for every time he worked without complaining. For another it was earning over 2 weeks a stay up late night with daddy.  And yes, I have even used M&Ms this term to force my younger to stop asking me how to spell words when he is writing (because then he can't be independent.)  If he doesn't ask - he gets 3 m&ms with lunch (funny how 3 is enough! I just have to keep dh out of them!)

 

5) Direct teaching vs unschooling writing.  If she resists direct teaching for composition right now, who cares?  At 7 it really does not matter.  Given her output, I think you could safely wait until 9 and she would continue to improve without your help. And perhaps at a faster rate than if she was forced to write in a way she disliked.  But I would also suggest that you use her interest in mimicking.  Talk up how fun it is to take a book like Peter Rabbit and read it to see *how* it was written.  What was actually done that was effective?  And then try out some of those techniques.  She may like doing this with you, snuggled up on the sofa.  You could model the approach a few times and then suggest she try it on her own and come tell you what *she* has found.  Tell her you will teach her a technique which will allow her to help herself. Show her that you can read any writing at 3 different levels - content, arrangement, and style.  I do disagree with the pp, I do NOT think that you should try WWE - not for the student you are describing.  I think it will lead to major tears.

 

I'm happy to bounce some more ideas around as I am looking for some myself!

 

Ruth in NZ

[Black-eyed Suzan]

I need to keep this short, but you might consider getting her eyes checked for convergence issues. My son hates to read, too, despite loving audio books and read alouds. He passed his regular eye exam, but further testing revealed he has convergence insufficiency. It's hard for his eyes to focus, which is why he dislikes reading so much. A COVD optometrist is the person to see if possible.

 

Also re: handwriting, you may want to look into Dianne Craft's writing eight exercise. I haven't actually tried it yet, but I have high hopes that it will improve my son's handwriting.

 

Btw, thanks for the writing discussion. I've been enjoying the Bravewriter audio that was posted earlier and am thinking about how to approach writing now.

[Pen]

I was unable to post for a few days, but wanted to add that I had not before understood your concern about "accelerated" and then suddenly I think I "got" it. If I understand right it is that if your child is behind or even just at level, you would feel more like you need to find some program to use to either catch her up or move her along as the case may be. But if she is accelerated then you would feel that whatever has been happening (or not) however unconventional seems to be okay and working for her so you would feel more comfortable to let her run with student initiated learning or "unschooling" or whatever term works for this in the writing area. 

 

 

[Pen]

Here I think is the thread I was thinking of before.  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/490467-critique-my-scope-and-sequence-for-writing-instruction-2nd-8th-grades/page-2  It has various of us discussing writing for the age range that fits your two girls. 

[La Texican]

The two programs you're using Bravewriter and MCT are the two most recommended writing programs on the subforum. I would recommend a piece taken from the wtm/wwe philosophy (no book needed) and use separate "threads" to build her up as a writer. What that would look like is leaving her creative writing to what she has been doing. Don't ask her to edit it. If you want her to work on handwriting HWT has a fifth grade printing workbook that is for older kids who didn't pick up efficient handwriting early. It's not that hard, the print is small like on her notebook paper, it teaches efficient legible handwriting. And I would suggest finding an editing workbook where she edits someone elses writing. She'll spontaneously apply that to her own writing soon enough if she's learning the skills, without second-guessing her own writing. By separating instruction into "strands" you can allow her to continue to develop her voice with Bravewriter and in her spare time, while educating her at her level with separate unconnected assignments. There's a workbook on Amazon called "Take five minutes: a history fact a day for editing". If that's not the right level, find something that is. According to TWTM/WWE, the skills will combine later as she internalizes both. You can teach the skills in separate strands. Sorry, I don't have experience, only thoughts from reading about education.

As Suzan just said, I hope you've heard of developmental optometry. Every time I read about a capable, smart, but reluctant reader I see this recommended. I often see updates where posters looked into it and it was a problem solved. A regular optometrist will see how well eyeballs can see, but a developmental optometrist can find a problem with how the eyeballs and the brain aren't connecting right. I don't fully understand, but it can be a problem even if the eyeballs are working, even if an optometrist says the eyeballs are fine.

Your daughters writing is beautiful.

I've never seen anyone being told not to post in this sub-forum. It's usually self-selected in forums like this. If what you're reading here is helpful then you'll continue to read and post here.

[Barbara H]

I want to not worry about her handwriting. I want to hear someone say

that they had a child who wrote profusely with horrible handwriting, did

nothing about it, and the child had no problems writing the essay portion

of the SAT. I know that is an extreme example, but I hope you get the point.

On the other hand, if someone had a similar child, did nothing with handwriting,

and the child struggled later on, I want to know that as well. Or, if I knew how

*long* to not worry about it, or a milestone to look for before worrying that would

be helpful.

 

 

Handwriting is a totally separate activity from writing. My suggestion would be to teach handwriting as a stand alone activity. 10 or 15 minutes a day.

 

I would 100% ignore what she's writing on her own. Let her have it, don't edit, don't mess with it, don't push her to write very much for school.

 

Also, she's seven. If she takes the SAT at a traditional age there is almost no chance it will still require a handwritten essay by that time. The ACT is already moving to keyboard essays (in many test sites by Spring 2015). It is just a matter of time.

[MomatHWTK]

I had horrible handwriting and made it through the LSAT.  By the time I sat for the bar, using a typewriter was allowed. 

 

 I found handwriting physically painful because of my grip, so probably could have written longer essays with better instruction.  But it was not the formation of the letters that was the problem, just my left-hander's grip. 

[Kuovonne]

I need to keep this short, but you might consider getting her eyes checked for convergence issues.

As Suzan just said, I hope you've heard of developmental optometry.

Thanks for the advice. I'll look into it. I already mentioned it to DH, but we

will have to wait until after the holidays to really pursue it.

 

I've never seen anyone being told not to post in this sub-forum. It's usually self-selected in forums like this. If what you're reading here is helpful then you'll continue to read and post here.

Arg. For some reason I have a mental block with the title of the forum.

If my kid isn't accelerated, I feel like a poser who is just saying I

belong here because I want to believe that my kids are brighter than average,

even if they aren't. I'm NOT accusing anyone else of doing so. It's just my thing.

 

I was unable to post for a few days, but wanted to add that I had not before understood your concern about "accelerated" and then suddenly I think I "got" it. If I understand right it is that if your child is behind or even just at level, you would feel more like you need to find some program to use to either catch her up or move her along as the case may be. But if she is accelerated then you would feel that whatever has been happening (or not) however unconventional seems to be okay and working for her so you would feel more comfortable to let her run with student initiated learning or "unschooling" or whatever term works for this in the writing area.

Yes, exactly this! If other people tell me she is doing fine with writing, it gives me more ammunition against my inner voice that tells me I need to start teaching her to write.

 

I would 100% ignore what she's writing on her own. Let her have it, don't edit, don't mess with it, don't push her to write very much for school.

I can do this. Actually, ignoring her personal writing is what I'm doing now. I need to work on the squelching the voice that says I should get her to write for school since it looks like she could.

 

Also, she's seven. If she takes the SAT at a traditional age there is almost no chance it will still require a handwritten essay by that time. The ACT is already moving to keyboard essays (in many test sites by Spring 2015). It is just a matter of time.

Ah, I suppose it will be a keyboard test by then. Actually, I'm hoping that they abolish it long before. But that's probably wishful thinking.

[Guest occasional reader]

I've been lurking on this board for several years and have gotten a lot of useful information. I just registered for an account to reply to this post.

 

I apologize for any ramblings but hopefully you'll get something out of it.

 

My dd is 11 now, but she was like your daughter.  Beginning at 4, she wrote a 4 page story about a princess that had many siblings.  The father loved the princess very much and did not love one more than the other.....This writing was to get dad to give the princess a birthday party --and it worked!  Birthday cards to relatives were very wordy also.

 

She wrote and wrote and wrote. At 11, she is still writing.  When she was 6, she was crying because she couldn't stop writing.  Her characters kept doing things and wouldn't stop, so she couldn't end the story.  She begged her teacher for help with character development at school. Her teacher told us she had never seen someone write like her, but she didn't help her.   I looked all over for something to help her, and I tried various forums.  Some responses were very unsettling.  Most told me to leave her alone and stop obsessing over my child's writing, that she was doing fine and just encourage her to keep writing.  I'm here to share with you that it was the WORST advice ever for us. I promised myself that if I ever met another mother struggling with this issue, I would speak up.  Doing nothing may have worked for others, may even work for your daughter since your daughter is not asking for help, but my daughter was asking for help with her characters, and there was nothing.

 

At 7, in public school, she was chastised for writing too much on an assignment after they were told to write as much as they like.  She had poured her heart into something to share with her teacher, and her teacher stomped on her (and saw it as a behavior issue and called a parent meeting).  She had a huge setback and "lost" her writing skills.  She began to write like a 7 year old because that's what the teacher told her to do, and she stopped taking risks with sharing her feelings.

 

I pulled her out of school at 8 and encouraged her to gradually begin writing on her own again.  She had 90 minutes per day that was all hers for free writing.  I also signed her up for WriteGuide so she would have some writing instruction, but I'm not sure it made much difference.   I looked at IEW and Brave writer, and some others, but worried that the structure might be unhelpful. 

 

The second thing I did was to give her grammar lessons  and vocabulary to give her tools to put into her writing.  And I had her do lightning lit 7 and 8 so she could learn about literature, plots, conflict, character consistency and growth.   And finally, we started a writing club with other homeschooled kids. It was run totally by the kids for the kids (parents provided snacks of course).  The kids sat together and wrote, and they talked about their stories and they read outloud, taking turns sharing.  It did wonders to rebuild confidence. 

 

 

With that background, here's my advice:

 

It's hard to know if a writing program would help or hinder. Would your dd like to come up with the writing assignments for school?   This would be something that she is less emotionally invested in and could look at objectively for grammar, punctuation, spelling, sentence structure, vocabulary, plot, etc. -- whatever ties into her her grammar and literature lessons.    You'll eventually see it incorporated into her creative writing, but that's for her to do on her own time.  But, if it seems like a chore for her, I might skip it until she is curious.

 

I remember worrying that my daughter wasn't reading much. She read very young, but then stopped reading.  She spent all her time writing.  She took to reading in earnest probably around 8 or 9 years old when the stories became real stories.  If you look at stuff little kids are given to read, it's sometimes lacking a lot of depth, conflict, and characterization. Your daughter reads at an advanced level, so it may just be a question of getting the attention span, the endurance for reading, and other skills to come together with reading that interests her.    We started with Little House on the Prairie which I started reading outloud, and then once she was invested, she took over reading it.  I didn't have her sit next to me.  It just happened in her earshot while she was playing.

 

I hope this wasn't too long.  And that there is some piece of support in there for you.  We found that writing at a very young age is rather rare so there isn't a lot of helpful information.   You are kind of on your own.   It's a special window you have into how your daughter thinks, and really something to cherish and support--and fiercely protect.  Thank you for posting examples of her work.  It really does show how her mind is working, how she thinks in complete thoughts, is able to share her thoughts, and what a delightful  upbeat child she is. 

 

[Pen]

Welcome Occasional Reader!

 

My ds was also in the early lots of interest in writing that was then squelched at b&m school. For him, letting him go back to his own thing worked better, but I think your post is important, because that might not be right for all children, though I do think that it is important as a distinction that your dd was asking for help. I am glad you have been able to find support and writing groups and so on for her now.  That's wonderful!

 

Your post gave me a couple of other ideas in case they might help. 1 is NaNoWriMo materials might appeal to some children like this. Another is that OP's dd7 might get a lot from listening in as dd10 works with Mom on more structured writing assignments.