Ann.without.an.e Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 This seems to be very controversial. One source even said it doesn't really matter with names? When a name ends in "s"....let's say James for example, do you show possession with s' or 's. James' room is clean. James's room is clean. I have seen just as many sources says one as the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korrale Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Both are acceptable. If I recall correctly one might be an English variant and the other an American. Just the same as how the words colour/color, jail/gaol, cheque/check, grey/gray, center/centre are all acceptable. My son is James and I just use James' all the time. Saves myself typing the extra s. I do think is also read once that syllables matter also. James' is for one syllable but for a name like Moses it would be Moses's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korrale Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 James' room is clean. James's room is clean. And this would be a blessing right now. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 This seems to be very controversial. One source even said it doesn't really matter with names? When a name ends in "s"....let's say James for example, do you show possession with s' or 's. James' room is clean. James's room is clean. I have seen just as many sources says one as the other. One or 't other. Rod and Staff's handbook says just the apostrophe. ABeka's says 's with these exceptions: Exceptions: The following may be correctly written by adding the apostrophe only: (1) ancient proper nouns ending in -es, (2) the name Jesus, and (3) such expressions as for conscience' sake. Socrates' pupil, Pericles' role, Aristophanes' comedies, Moses' rod, Jesus' birth, for righteousness' sake, for conscience' sake, for goodness' sake Notice that the names given as examples are multisyllabic names, unlike James, which does end in es but it's a final silent e, making the single vowel say its second (long) sound, so there's only one syllable. Spalding geek here. :D I'm going to go with ABeka. I don't know about you, but *I* say "James-es"--two syllables--when I talk about his room. To write it only as James' doesn't seem right, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 James' room is clean. This, because it was what I was taught and the other doesn't look right to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 It's a style issue- pick the one that looks correct to you and be consistent. I personally cannot stand the -s's so I teach my kids -s' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belacqua Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Strunk and White say James's (for everybody except Jesus and Moses). I do whatever S&W tell me, so that's how I vote. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Strunk and White say James's (for everybody except Jesus and Moses). I do whatever S&W tell me, so that's how I vote. :) :cheers2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Strunk and White say James's (for everybody except Jesus and Moses). I do whatever S&W tell me, so that's how I vote. :) Is this a book? I've heard of it before and think maybe I need to get myself a copy. I just read that its as a possessive is not it's, but its. I have always used it's: The cat is black. It's coat is very soft. I'm feeling like I'm failing grammar and we've hardly started!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korrale Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 One or 't other. Rod and Staff's handbook says just the apostrophe. ABeka's says 's with these exceptions: Notice that the names given as examples are multisyllabic names, unlike James, which does end in es but it's a final silent e, making the single vowel say its second (long) sound, so there's only one syllable. Spalding geek here. :D I'm going to go with ABeka. I don't know about you, but *I* say "James-es"--two syllables--when I talk about his room. To write it only as James' doesn't seem right, lol. Oops I guess I got the syllable thing around the wrong way. :) I just know after my son was born that for the first time in my life I had to figure out how to write his possessive correctly. I settled on James', knowing that it wasn't actually incorrect, and I have stuck with it since. :) Wouldn't you say Moses-es room with three syllables too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belacqua Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Is this a book? I've heard of it before and think maybe I need to get myself a copy. I just read that its as a possessive is not it's, but its. I have always used it's: The cat is black. It's coat is very soft. I'm feeling like I'm failing grammar and we've hardly started!!!! Strunk and White's book is The Elements of Style. It's a wonderful, slim volume that covers all the basics of grammar and usage without getting overly complicated. And for what it's worth, I had to check the punctuation rule for the compound possessive in my previous sentence; I think we all have a few grammar points that give us guff. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korrale Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Bela, Any idea what it says about punctuation being inside as opposed to outside of quotation marks? That is another one that has many acceptable variances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belacqua Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Bela, Any idea what it says about punctuation being inside as opposed to outside of quotation marks? That is another one that has many acceptable variances. In most cases, they have the punctuation within the quotation marks. I've been a real stickler about this one, which annoys the heck out of my student. I think my vehemence was created by the editor of a little newspaper for which I did typesetting; if anybody put punctuation outside the quotation marks, this editor would turn all shades of purple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann.without.an.e Posted November 12, 2013 Author Share Posted November 12, 2013 ok so my child's name is actually Silas....now how would you should possession? I have been reworking phrases in order to avoid his name + possession because I always second guess myself. :confused: He is four now and I am tired of thinking so hard about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 In most cases, they have the punctuation within the quotation marks. I've been a real stickler about this one, which annoys the heck out of my student. I think my vehemence was created by the editor of a little newspaper for which I did typesetting; if anybody put punctuation outside the quotation marks, this editor would turn all shades of purple. This varies by country. The following are the only the only correct versions, to my knowledge, in the UK: Why would anyone deny that, "An Englishman's home is his castle"? Shakespeare certainly did write, "To be or not to be"! One of the most poignant phrases in First World War poetry is, "There is a corner of a foreign field". In each case, the terminal punctuation belongs not to the quotation but to the sentence that encloses it, and it therefore sits outside the inverted commas. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I know it has become acceptable to do either, but really James' for a single James looks very wrong to me because it looks like it is something belonging to lots of people named Jame. Doing it t'other way brings it in line with how we do possessives for all other names. But I know newspapers always do it James'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korrale Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Fwiw, I don't think I have ever seen it written James's. Even friends with children with the same name. And maybe that is because it is how newspapers do it too. And I have to say I adore those little SotW toys Farrar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbelle Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I married a family with an S ending last name. They add -es to the end. I do not do it. LOL Think Riggs..Riggses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 This varies by country. The following are the only the only correct versions, to my knowledge, in the UK: Why would anyone deny that, "An Englishman's home is his castle"? Shakespeare certainly did write, "To be or not to be"! One of the most poignant phrases in First World War poetry is, "There is a corner of a foreign field". In each case, the terminal punctuation belongs not to the quotation but to the sentence that encloses it, and it therefore sits outside the inverted commas. L Yes, I think those are correct in the US too, but that situation is much more rare. It's nearly always inside, at least here, because the punctuation nearly always goes with the sentence being spoken. That's certainly the case with writing dialogue for stories and most quotations for essays. And, of course, in France, there would be -- on some of those for some reason, I believe. European punctuation is quite a mystery to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Is this a book? I've heard of it before and think maybe I need to get myself a copy. I just read that its as a possessive is not it's, but its. I have always used it's: The cat is black. It's coat is very soft. I'm feeling like I'm failing grammar and we've hardly started!!!! Somewhere along the way you missed that class. :-) "It's" is always a contraction, never a possessive. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I married a family with an S ending last name. They add -es to the end. I do not do it. LOL Think Riggs..Riggses. They are correct. You must learn to adapt, lol. When a noun ends with /s/, /z/, /ch/, /sh/, /j/ (and those are the sounds, you know, regardless of how they are actually spelled) you always add -es to make it plural. If it's a verb and you're changing its case (I forget the exact grammatical term), as in walk/walks, sing/sings/, if it ends with /s/, /z/, /ch/, /sh/, /j/ you add -es. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Yes, I think those are correct in the US too, but that situation is much more rare. It's nearly always inside, at least here, because the punctuation nearly always goes with the sentence being spoken. That's certainly the case with writing dialogue for stories and most quotations for essays. And, of course, in France, there would be -- on some of those for some reason, I believe. European punctuation is quite a mystery to me. These are also correct in British English (from the Oxford Style Guide) When a sentence-long quotation is used as an explanation or specimen, the full point usually does not fall within the closing quotation mark: Cogito, ergo sum means 'I think, therefore I am'. Let A stand for 'There exists at least one tree in real space'. He believed in the proverb 'Dead men tell no tales'. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 ok so my child's name is actually Silas....now how would you should possession? I have been reworking phrases in order to avoid his name + possession because I always second guess myself. :confused: He is four now and I am tired of thinking so hard about it. According to Strunk and White (and ABeka, lol), it would be Silas's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmeblue Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 It's a style issue- pick the one that looks correct to you and be consistent. I personally cannot stand the -s's so I teach my kids -s' I agree with your first sentence and am on the exact opposite side with your second. :lol: I learned grammar with A Beka, and I strongly prefer -s's. Because I know this is an issue with so many differing opinions, though, one of my rules for naming our kids is no name ending in the letter s. I don't want to cringe every time someone writes it the way I don't like! I was very sad when I was writing my master's thesis on Rene Descartes, because the style guide I was required to use (APA) says to use -s's in general, but -s' for an unpronounced final s. It even used Descartes' as the example! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belacqua Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 I was very sad when I was writing my master's thesis on Rene Descartes, because the style guide I was required to use (APA) says to use -s's in general, but -s' for an unpronounced final s. It even used Descartes' as the example! And Rene said, "I think not!" And promptly disappeared. * Rimshot* I'm here all week, everybody. Try the veal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a27mom Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Last name ending in s here. This has been very helpful. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnmusic Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 And Rene said, "I think not!" And promptly disappeared. Sorry if this is off topic, but while we're on the subject of grammar, I have a question about this one here (is this an example from a book?): could this be understood as 1 sentence? It seems like it could be read as a single sentence but the ! within the quotation marks and the following capital "And" throws me off and looks like it must be 2 sentences? Thanks in advance for clarification! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoGal Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Oh! I wish I knew about the quotations when I was in high school. I remember getting a ton of red marks for having punctuation outside of the quotation marks! Here's another one for the experts here. What about when you end a sentence with an abbreviated word. Do you have a period or does one of the dots count? I live in the U.S.A. or I live in the U.S.A.. (I have been rephrasing to avoid this!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deee Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Thank you, Laura - giving extra punctuation to quotes annoys me (I clearly have too little to do!). I am an Evans by birth. The plural is still Evans and the possessive is Evans'. While I adore Strunk and White (the book was THE style guide at Sydney Uni), I'm afraid if either gentleman had an "s" ending name, they might have felt differently. "Evans's" sounds like something out of a bad comedy skit! And I can clearly recall the 4th grade grammar lesson in which we studied this rule. I was very excited: my surname was in the book! D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 I just read that its as a possessive is not it's, but its. I have always used it's: The cat is black. It's coat is very soft. You just killed a kitten! :lol: It's = It is :D Possessive pronouns: my, your, his, her, its, our, their Now my question is if you're in the south, do you say y'alls or y'all's for plural 2nd person possession? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Ooh, speaking of kitten killing, I took this picture a few weeks ago on our way to go camping. I forgot to post it. It's Mama Mi'as Restaurant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 As to the topic at hand, I was taught: Jesus' fish James' dog Descartes' idea The Evanses are coming for dinner. (Although I do prefer to just say the Evans.) The Evans' car just pulled up. And punctuation always goes inside the quotation marks, whether or not it was part of the original quotation. I don't agree with this one, but I've never been taught that it was debatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Now my question is if you're in the south, do you say y'alls or y'all's for plural 2nd person possession? I suppose it would be y'all's, but I think anyone who would actually write y'all + possession probably wouldn't care all that much about the grammar of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 I suppose it would be y'all's, but I think anyone who would actually write y'all + possession probably wouldn't care all that much about the grammar of it. I do sometimes write y'all's. :lol: (I swear, I use proper English most of the time!) I was just wondering because "its" does not have an apostrophe, and I wondered if "y'all" would follow the same convention. I'd hate for someone to think I was trying to say "y'all is". :smilielol5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 You just killed a kitten! :lol: It's = It is :D Possessive pronouns: my, your, his, her, its, our, their Now my question is if you're in the south, do you say y'alls or y'all's for plural 2nd person possession? It is "y'alls." No apostrophe. Why would there be a second apostrophe?? Hers, his, ours, theirs, yours, y'alls. See? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Ooh, speaking of kitten killing, I took this picture a few weeks ago on our way to go camping. I forgot to post it. It's Mama Mi'as Restaurant! Oh dear. And they paid big bucks for that kitty assassination! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollhouse Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Strunk and White say James's (for everybody except Jesus and Moses). I do whatever S&W tell me, so that's how I vote. :) Yes, when I worked as a copy editor, this was the style we went with. It makes me cringe to see it any other way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenKitty Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 James' room is clean. I had no idea there was a controversy over the placement. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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