News article about parent arrested at school board meeting

[MSNative]

Our city council allows those present to speak and ask questions at the end of the meeting. From the video, it seemed that the board members had recognized Mr. Small and allowed him to ask a question. (You could hear someone say, "ask your question" in the background.)  He did run over that time but then asked his question. You don't send a security guard in to push people around - especially when all they were doing was going a couple minutes over their allotted time. Most people go over the allotted time in these meetings. Even if I am wrong in my assumption that he was given time to speak, that still doesn't make what the guard did right.  The guy didn't seem to be using vulgar or threatening words, he wasn't storming up toward the board members or doing anything else aggressive. There is a better way to handle these situations. 

[*lifeoftheparty*]

http://michellemalkin.com/2013/09/20/parents-you-need-to-question-these-people-shock-video-of-dad-arrested-at-school-meeting-after-challenging-common-core/

 

This is the article I read.

 

This happened in our area. A friend of mine went to one of these forums and told me about it weeks ago, before this came out.

 

She said it was scary. NOT so much the content of the common core, but the way they were trying to "sell it" with their propaganda film and not bring able to ask questions. (They did the same "write out your questions and we'll read the ones we choose" thing) She said it was just scary and eerie and she is currently trying to figure out a way to keep her kids out of public school next year.

[CupOCoffee]

When you have top experts in their fields coming out against the CC, that's is indeed scary.  The above article is NOT the first piece I've read that gives names of University Professors (considered top in their field) that are adamantly against CC.

 

~coffee~

[Joker]

Our district has had several open meetings regarding common core. There have been no films trying to "sell it" and there has been nothing scary about it. Both of my dds are in a public middle school which has almost fully implemented most of the standards, so I do have an interest. I've not seen, heard, or witnessed anything that really worries me about CC. I guess some states/districts may be handling things differently, but things have been very open here.

[Murphy101]

I think security is standard at any large gathering now.  However, security should be there to protect people from harm, not to prevent people from speaking at a public meeting

 

The security guard, cop or not, was out of line. Someone interupting a school board meeting is not needing evicted from it, much less pushed and pulled and shoved out of it and arrested. Just stupid. And Mr Small was not the only one. There are several people calling out that they want his question answered, they want their questions answered, and so forth.

 

Yeah, I do--especially if that rule make it so that people cannot be heard. 

 

But what I was saying is that we are ingrained to obey rules, to think they are good for us.  Not always true and a rule isn't a law even in a public area. 

I want people to think about is:  what they obey just because they are told to and they feel they should. 

 

Not every rule is right, not every law is Constitutional. 

 

Only by thinking CRITICALLY and knowing our rights will we be able to know when our rights are being trampled on.

I completely agree and think it is vital to freedom that people start comprehending this and living it ASAP.

 

I don't care what rule the school superintendent wanted for the meeting. That doesn't make it law breaking to not follow that rule. Mr Small was basicly arrested for not following an arbitrarily demanded rule that he not speak out at a public meeting about a topic of public concern.

 

This is a huge problem in many areas of our lives these days and it needs to stop. Schools, work, medicine... They make rules and say you have to follow them or they can call the police, but since when do the police work as just brute enforcers for those people? In theory they aren't supposed to.

[Murphy101]

As for the common core.

 

I don't care because I home school in a state that doesn't require I use certain providers. I hope it doesn't spill over into the curriculum products I buy, tho I suppose it's inevitable eventually.

 

As for public schools, I've long held the radical opinion they should be abolished and at the least the federal govt has no business telling any state how to run their schools.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

I don't care what rule the school superintendent wanted for the meeting. That doesn't make it law breaking to not follow that rule. Mr Small was basicly arrested for not following an arbitrarily demanded rule that he not speak out at a public meeting about a topic of public concern.

 

This is a huge problem in many areas of our lives these days and it needs to stop. Schools, work, medicine... They make rules and say you have to follow them or they can call the police, but since when do the police work as just brute enforcers for those people? In theory they aren't supposed to.

 

If you read the charges he did break a law for disrupting the meeting.  And I don't believe you have a solid grasp of trespassing and public disturbance laws if you don't believe someone has the right to have you removed for disrupting an event.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

As for the common core.

 

I don't care because I home school in a state that doesn't require I use certain providers. I hope it doesn't spill over into the curriculum products I buy, tho I suppose it's inevitable eventually.

.

 

What is "it" exactly?  What do you believe CC is?

[Susan C.]

What if common core is enforced for home educators?

 

I don't know much, both dc are graduated. IF its an issue (haven't determined that yet), then involvement would be necessary because current home educators may be affected, along with future grandchildren, friends, family, etc.

 

Are there any threads that go into detail about CC? About JUST what it is, rather than what people fear it may be?

[MSNative]

If you read the charges he did break a law for disrupting the meeting.  And I don't believe you have a solid grasp of trespassing and public disturbance laws if you don't believe someone has the right to have you removed for disrupting an event.

 

  But he wasn't charged with trespassing or public disturbance.  I'm not a lawyer but my brief google search (which kinda like staying at whatever hotel makes me one :) ) didn't help me understand how he could have broken either of those laws.  He was attending an open meeting, was recognized by one of the board members and not speaking in an offensive manner.  He was possibly asked once to leave though I didn't see that on the video.  I saw the guard come up, then get awfully close and then start to grab him and push him.  Is asking a question like that really trespassing or public disturbance?  I get that once he started calling people cattle you could argue that but that was way after he'd been manhandled.  Could you elaborate?  Truly interested, not being snarky.

 

Trespassing  -"Trespass has both a narrow and a broad meaning[xi].  The narrow meaning refers to an unlawful entry upon the land of another.  The broad meaning of the term trespass encompasses any unlawful interference with one’s person, property, or rights. -

 

 

Public disturbance - "Loud noise; or

1. Offensive language addressed in a face-to-face manner to a specific individual and uttered under circumstances which are likely to produce an immediate violent response from a reasonable recipient; or
2. Threatening to commit a felonious act against any person under circumstances which are likely to cause a reasonable person to fear that such threat may be carried out; or
3. Fighting; or
4. Creating a noxious and offensive odor;
5. Being in a public place or on private property of another without consent and purposely causes inconvenience to another person or persons by unreasonably and physically obstructing:"

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

  But he wasn't charged with trespassing or public disturbance.  I'm not a lawyer but my brief google search (which kinda like staying at whatever hotel makes me one :) ) didn't help me understand how he could have broken either of those laws.  He was attending an open meeting, was recognized by one of the board members and not speaking in an offensive manner.  He was possibly asked once to leave though I didn't see that on the video.  I saw the guard come up, then get awfully close and then start to grab him and push him.  Is asking a question like that really trespassing or public disturbance?  I get that once he started calling people cattle you could argue that but that was way after he'd been manhandled.  Could you elaborate?  Truly interested, not being snarky.

 

Trespassing  -"Trespass has both a narrow and a broad meaning[xi].  The narrow meaning refers to an unlawful entry upon the land of another.  The broad meaning of the term trespass encompasses any unlawful interference with one’s person, property, or rights. -

 

 

Public disturbance - "Loud noise; or

1. Offensive language addressed in a face-to-face manner to a specific individual and uttered under circumstances which are likely to produce an immediate violent response from a reasonable recipient; or
2. Threatening to commit a felonious act against any person under circumstances which are likely to cause a reasonable person to fear that such threat may be carried out; or
3. Fighting; or
4. Creating a noxious and offensive odor;
5. Being in a public place or on private property of another without consent and purposely causes inconvenience to another person or persons by unreasonably and physically obstructing:"

 

 

His exact charges were "2nd degree assault on a police officer" and "disrupting a school operation".  My reference to public disturbance and trespassing was in general to Martha's statement that "They make rules and say you have to follow them or they can call the police" and was not related to this case.

 

 

[MSNative]

His exact charges were "2nd degree assault on a police officer" and "disrupting a school operation".  My reference to public disturbance and trespassing was in general to Martha's statement that "They make rules and say you have to follow them or they can call the police" and was not related to this case.

 

Got it.  Didn't realize he'd also been charged with disrupting a school operation. Thanks for explaining.  

 

What about the guard? Did he violate any laws or is it ok for him to start shoving people like that? (Real question again)

 

P.S.  I understand that if I ask you any more you may have to start billing me. ;)

[LaxMom]

It depends on the purpose of the meeting. When someone gets up and wants to rant on about something that is fundamentally untrue (CC is not designed to prepare students for community college, and the question implies a complete lack of understanding of what the CC is), there is simply nothing to be gained from letting them continue. I can see with the amount of misinformation and conspiracy theories surrounding CC that the best format for a discussion may be through answering written questions.

Well, and also, this was not a forum to debate the relative merits and discrepancies of CC. Common Core has been adopted by the state. It is being rolled out. The purpose of meetings like this is to educate parents on what this all means, and try to clear up any misunderstanding. Hence, the written question with board answer format; it doesn't give anyone an inappropriate forum for venting.

 

If he wanted his opinion heard, he probably should have offered it during the consideration period.

 

And, yeah, when you push somebody, it's assault. And battery. And when you push somebody who is clearly identified as security, that's grounds for forcible ejection, whether you're in a bar or a school board meeting.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Got it.  Didn't realize he'd also been charged with disrupting a school operation. Thanks for explaining.  

 

What about the guard? Did he violate any laws or is it ok for him to start shoving people like that? (Real question again)

 

P.S.  I understand that if I ask you any more you may have to start billing me. ;)

 

Depends. He is likely allowed to use a reasonable amount of force to remove him. Some words were being exchanged that we did not hear that could affect whether the officer was entitled to use force, and note the officer did show his badge (a key factor in the assault charge).

[MSNative]

Depends. He is likely allowed to use a reasonable amount of force to remove him. Some words were being exchanged that we did not hear that could affect whether the officer was entitled to use force, and note the officer did show his badge (a key factor in the assault charge).

 

Thank you, again. I appreciate the info.  

[Laurie4b]

Depends. He is likely allowed to use a reasonable amount of force to remove him. Some words were being exchanged that we did not hear that could affect whether the officer was entitled to use force, and note the officer did show his badge (a key factor in the assault charge).

 

From what I saw, the officer was provocative in his use of force. There is force to escort someone out and force of the kind that people use to start a fight. A shove seems to me to be the kind that starts a fight. Taking hold of the arm is a standard way to escort someone out of someplace.  IMO, the guy showed an amazing amount of restraint in not retaliating. And if he did eventually push back, I didn't see it on that video.  I am not LE in any way, so this is not a technical opinion, just the opinion of a basic citizen watching and thinking the officer's actions in shoving the guy would provoke a fight in many situations and a badge shouldn't protect you from that.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

From what I saw, the officer was provocative in his use of force. There is force to escort someone out and force of the kind that people use to start a fight. A shove seems to me to be the kind that starts a fight. Taking hold of the arm is a standard way to escort someone out of someplace.  IMO, the guy showed an amazing amount of restraint in not retaliating. And if he did eventually push back, I didn't see it on that video.  I am not LE in any way, so this is not a technical opinion, just the opinion of a basic citizen watching and thinking the officer's actions in shoving the guy would provoke a fight in many situations and a badge shouldn't protect you from that.

 

Nope.

The officer took him by the arm after giving him a legal command, and gentleman did resist being led out.  After moving him towards the exit, the officer gave him a fairly mild shove after additional commands.  The man then pushed back into the officer and received a more aggressive push in return.  In all of that, the gentleman continued to ignore legal commands to leave the room.  Legally, refusing to follow the officer's instructions is a provocative act committed by this parent.

[Mrs Mungo]

State and federal legislatures are their own hot mess. I expect to be able to converse face to face with my local officials. When my little portion of the district elects someone to the board, he is my representative. His job is to listen to every "dingbat" out there because, like it or not, that person has a right to be heard by the people who represent him. It doesn't meant that every person is going to be satisfied with the answer, but they still get to speak up.

And I agree with you. I disagree that city council meetings are the place for open forums. Most local officials in the places I have lived (several) have "town hall" forums for open q&a. My experience of city council meetings is that people write out something and speak for a very limited amount of time.

 

When people join private organizations, you agree to the rules. You can be kicked out if you break the rules. Nobody "joins" their local government. Our contracts with our local governments are in constant flux. If the people 20 years ago thought that a written question format at public meetings was acceptable, that doesn't mean that that is the rule from now until eternity.

Sure. But, the way to go about making changes is not to disrupt meetings.

[zoobie]

But are their kids even in school? I don't listen to am talk radio-- has Rush taken a stand on CC?

I believe Rush brought forth the Louisiana pimpz contribution to the CC debate. Sigh.

 

If you want to see some real governmental overreaction to people protesting their government, check out the Capitol police force actions in Wisconsin lately.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm still shaking my head over the fact that people can hire a police officer as private security and, in effect, have publicly-granted powers as their disposal like that. There seems to be a pretty big conflict of interest there.

 

I'm also surprised that there's anyone defending this. Maybe it's the innocent Canadian in me but I have been to many public meetings, seen many nutbars rants and rave and NEVER seen one express out by security. This because people generally seem to acknowledge that the right to speak at those meetings is a pretty important principle that should be respected even if one or two of those speaking are a little off.

[Mrs Mungo]

What if common core is enforced for home educators?

How? What do you mean?

 

 

Are there any threads that go into detail about CC? About JUST what it is, rather than what people fear it may be?

It is a set of standards of what should be learned when. There are various examples in the books to show to type of work that meets those standards.

 

http://www.corestandards.org

 

As far as how homeschoolers can meet them? I imagine they are the types of things that are on standardized tests. My kids manage to stay well above average (and in the 99th percentile for some subjects) without ever have been exposed to much of the information on standardized tests (for example-what passed as social studies in the school system).

 

So, it isn't something I am worried about. If people are worried about meeting the standards, those "what your fifth grader should know" type books would be helpful to them. Those books are all based on the idea of developing a common core.