How many years of science...

[shanvan]

in high school for a non-science major?  Are 3 years really enough?  I've read this in some places and several of the state schools list 2 lab sciences as their science requirements.   If only doing 3 then which sciences would you cover?  I searched for opinions here, but can't find any.  (My search skills might be inadequate.  But I really need to stop and get in the shower.)  TIA  

[Mom22ns]

If you are only doing 3, I would do the big 3, Biology, Chemistry and Physics. My non-sciency kids is doing those 3 with a year of Forensic Science thrown in for something lighter. 

 

I really like a 4X4 plan, but if your child is very strong in another area and needs that time to pursue their interest, I don't think it will look bad on the transcript to be heavily weighted toward a goal or interest.

[regentrude]

I personally would do 4 years of science even for a non-science major, maybe even especially for a non-science major, because the student will not get more science education in college, so a strong high school science background would be important. (Likewise, I would put make sure a STEM studnt gets a strong history background)

 

If I could only do three sciences, it would be physics, chemistry, and biology. In that order.

 

If I had to chose two labs, I would definitely do a physics lab because the experimental setups are simple and clear (and often doable with household items!), isolating variable is easier, and they lend themselves to teaching a rigorous data analysis.

I would choose the second lab according to my student's interest and the availability of resources.

[G5052]

Mine do 4 years even though both are talking like they won't major in anything that way in college.  They do that because I feel that a well-rounded high school program should have four years of science.

 

Frankly what a teenager wants to study and what they're going to be doing ten years later may be entirely different.  And so I prepare them for whatever may come.  I teach at a community college where the most common declared major is pre-nursing, and over and over I hear about how tough the science classes are for those who had minimal science in high school.  The average nursing student there is 25 years old, so there are a lot of career-changers including those who started out in the lower-paying medical positions and are wanting better jobs.  You really don't know exactly where your student will end up in their studies.

 

 

[shanvan]

Mine do 4 years even though both are talking like they won't major in anything that way in college.  They do that because I feel that a well-rounded high school program should have four years of science.

 

Frankly what a teenager wants to study and what they're going to be doing ten years later may be entirely different.  And so I prepare them for whatever may come.  I teach at a community college where the most common declared major is pre-nursing, and over and over I hear about how tough the science classes are for those who had minimal science in high school.  The average nursing student there is 25 years old, so there are a lot of career-changers including those who started out in the lower-paying medical positions and are wanting better jobs.  You really don't know exactly where your student will end up in their studies.

I've given that advice many times, but I am realizing that there are times it is possible to know where they won't end up.  And, there is only so much time in a day.  We are talking about a history/literature type kid.  If he did a 4th year of science it would only be to check a box and would not really be part of a plan designed to fit his individual gifts/talents interests.  He would have to turn down some of the extracurricular and leadership opportunities he has locally that really do fit with his abilities in public speaking and leadership.  I think I am convincing myself of the right answer (for us).  If I want to force him into a mold that isn't really him, I can send him to school---but even then they make judgements about where a student is likely to end up in college and choose courses accordingly.  My senior year science courses were box checking w/o a doubt.  Completely unnecessary -- which was not true of the other 3 years of science I took in high school.  

[ThisIsTheDay]

My non-sciency kid did Biology and Chemistry, both with labs.  She chose to do Neuroscience for a third science credit, using a Great Courses for her spine.  By googling, I found good resources for labs, but she opted not to do those.  She had no issues getting into college. (One school waitlisted her because they wanted one math level higher than Alg II though.)

[Lori D.]

...I am realizing that there are times it is possible to know where they won't end up.  And, there is only so much time in a day.  We are talking about a history/literature type kid.  If he did a 4th year of science it would only be to check a box and would not really be part of a plan designed to fit his individual gifts/talents interests.  He would have to turn down some of the extracurricular and leadership opportunities he has locally that really do fit with his abilities in public speaking and leadership...

 

 

:iagree: Go with your reasoning on this, Shanvan. You will be fine with 3 science credits.

 

Unless you are shooting for a top tier school or very competitive or selective school, the majority of colleges and universities are perfectly happy with 3 science credits on the transcript. They tend to prefer seeing Biology, Chemistry, and Physics, but as long as you've got a solid Biology and Chemistry (each with labs) and a third lab science, you'll be great.

 

You are preparing your student for more than just admission to college and academia. You are working to prepare him for life, and to give him the opportunity to explore interests, and develop life skills and skills that will enhance *any* career. You've got a great balance going!

 

Three credits of science will take care of the college admission part (for most colleges) of that high school equation. Colleges also want to see well-rounded students who were involved in things OTHER than just academics, and you're providing for that part of the equation with the extracurriculars -- which are also fabulous ways to bring in the life skills and character development part of the equation.

 

You go, girl! :)

[kohlby]

Look up the college requirements.  I haven't seen more than 3 ever needed, but I haven't looked up colleges recently.  I would do 3 lab sciences: Biology, Chemistry, and Physics if your child is willing.  If you have a child who isn't strong in science, then you could do Physical Science the first year and then 2 labs of Biology and Chemistry.  Non-science majors did take science when I was in college.  I was a math major initially and took two Physics courses as a result.  I then transferred colleges as an education major and had to take two Biology classes, Environmental Bio and Human Body in Health and Disease - so no Bio 101.  I would consider a 4th year of science more as an elective. 

[HRAAB]

 

If I could only do three sciences, it would be physics, chemistry, and biology. In that order.

 

 

 

Would you explain why you would schedule science in that order?  My dd has completed biology and chemistry and is currently taking anatomy and physiology.  She's thinking of doing physics next year if we can find a class that fits her schedule.

[regentrude]

Would you explain why you would schedule science in that order?

 

Because physics is the most fundamental of sciences.

Chemistry is basically an application of physics, so physics should be before chemistry.

All biological systems must obey, and are governed by, the laws of physics. There is much biochemistry involved in a modern biology course, so chemistry should be before biology.

 

The only reason for the typical school sequence of bio-chem-phys in this country is that the schools are so behind in teaching math; many 9th graders simply have not been taught enough math to take a decent physics course.

ideally, I would have all students study the three core sciences concurrently over several years, as it is done in my home country.

[Mom22ns]

Would you explain why you would schedule science in that order?  My dd has completed biology and chemistry and is currently taking anatomy and physiology.  She's thinking of doing physics next year if we can find a class that fits her schedule.

 

How about because she is a Physics Professor?  :tongue_smilie:  There is a strong physics first movement that agrees for exactly the reasons Regentrude outlined. 

 

On the other hand, I have a Life Science related degree. I never had Physics in high school and only took one semester of Physics in college. I managed 4 semesters of Chemistry and who knows how many of Biology, Zoology, Microbiology... etc and I never felt the lack of physics at all. I think perspective strongly influences the order as well as math. 

 

On a related side note, I just saw a research study saying that math is better retained when taught integrated instead of broken into Algebra, Geometry, etc. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is true in sciences too. They are interrelated and better understood together. I think the teaching of math and science will change in the US in the future.

[HRAAB]

Thank you both for your answers.  It does make sense when I read the explanation.

[HollyDay]

I require 4 sciencs: BIo, Chemistry, Physics and 1 other.  Oldest will finish high school with the following:

Physical Science

Biology

Chemistry

Physics

Marine Biology

Forensic Science 

 

Depending upon the college/university to which she applies, I might not put Physical Science on the transcript as a science credit.  The Forensic Science will count as an elective. 

 

Don't forget the math however.  4+ sciences are great.  But, IMHO, the transcript needs to reflect the math that goes along with it. 

[Melissa B]

My dd is planning to graduate with only three science credits: 

 

Botany w/lab

Biology w/lab

Chemistry w/lab

 

If she decides to apply to a college where I fear she will (for some currently unknown reason) be at a disadvantage with only 3 sciences, I may add her 8th grade Honors Physical Science credit to that specific transcript, as it is labeled a high school credit. At this time that doesn't appear to be helpful/necessary. 

[shanvan]

My dd is planning to graduate with only three science credits: 

 

Botany w/lab

Biology w/lab

Chemistry w/lab

 

If she decides to apply to a college where I fear she will (for some currently unknown reason) be at a disadvantage with only 3 sciences, I may add her 8th grade Honors Physical Science credit to that specific transcript, as it is labeled a high school credit. At this time that doesn't appear to be helpful/necessary. 

 

Thank you for being willing to post a sequence that isn't as heavy as what I have seen posted previously.  Ds also has an interest in Botany and may cover it as a science at some point in the next 2 years.

 

Also thanks to Lori who weighed in with her (as usual) down to earth common sense.  Not that other comments are lacking in common sense, but I know Ds has plenty to do without me choosing the most rigorous science progression.  I planned something more like the rigorous progressions listed, but it's not realistic in his situation.  

 

I've got it sorted out now and we will just leave senior year up in the air as far a science goes.  We are aiming for 3 and will consider a 4th later if it is necessary and won't detract from other areas.  It's so hard reading a variety of responses without being swayed by others and forgetting about the actual flesh and blood kid you are supposed to be considering!  

[Jenny in Florida]

Thank you for being willing to post a sequence that isn't as heavy as what I have seen posted previously.  Ds also has an interest in Botany and may cover it as a science at some point in the next 2 years.

 

 

Well, if you're looking for reassurance that not everyone is doing highly rigorous science sequences, I'll share that my son currently plans to graduate with:

 

Science in Popular Culture (with lab) - a course we made up ourselves to align with some of his interests

Chemistry (with lab)

Physics (with lab)

 

He may do one more semester of something sciencey at the community college before we officially graduate him, since he'll need it for his A.A.

 

If he doesn't do the additional science at the college and we find he needs to list one, I could put back on his transcript the Honors Earth-Space Science class that is currently on the list of courses completed before high school. I'd rather not, because his grade in that class wasn't stellar, but it's the current back-up plan.

[Kareni]

My daughter did the following sciences while in high school.

9th: Physical Science
10th: Chemistry (Lab)
11th: G 101: Earth's Dynamic Interior (Lab)
11th: G 102 Earth's Dynamic Surface (Lab)
11th: G 146: Rocks and Minerals (Lab)
12th: ENVS 181: Terrestrial Science (Lab)

We allowed her to study the sciences that interested her at the community college in 11th and 12th grades (namely Geology and Environmental Science) rather than mandating that she study the more traditional Biology.  She went on to major in Latin and minor in Geology at the four year college she subsequently attended.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[regentrude]

Science is mostly memorization, where true thought and invention comes in is the lab work, which was my favorite part of science.

 

I very strongly disagree with this statement. Science is understanding HOW things work. Memorizing a bunch of vocabulary terms is not science; it is only a prerequisite for being able to do science effectively because it establishes a basis for communication. Memorizing nomenclature in chemistry is not science either; science is understanding WHY things react the way they do.

In physics, there is absolutely no memorization. A student who develops a conceptual understanding can derive all relationships he needs to solve the problems.

[JanetC]

On a related side note, I just saw a research study saying that math is better retained when taught integrated instead of broken into Algebra, Geometry, etc. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is true in sciences too. They are interrelated and better understood together. I think the teaching of math and science will change in the US in the future.

 

To see what integrated science would look like (physics, chemistry, earth science), try this link and click on "read a textbook"

These are from South Africa.

 

http://everythingscience.co.za/