What do you do when someone close to you is adulterous

[Scarlett]

This is what I keep asking: In what way is revealing another person's secret the right thing to do? It's not about clearing up rumors (as you suggest below), because there are no rumors. If there were questions, why not suggest the two parties to talk directly? If it's not about feeling relief for not holding a secret, what is the reason it's right for a person to take on this role of intermediary, a role no one asked for, and for all intents and purposes, would be unwelcome?

 

 

I don't enjoy making things complicated. I'm trying to understand what you're trying to communicate. You keep changing your message here (from - tell, you'll feel better; to - I would tell if it were me; to - it's the right thing to do). I can't read your mind, I can only read your words, and your words are confusing to me.

Her SIL told her that her brother has moved out, is having an affair and has filed for a divorce. I guess there is a possibility that the SIL has flipped her lid and is making it all up....In family of secret keepers how would anyone know though? So for me, it would be a two fold reason to contact my brother....1)is this horrible thing I heard about you true? ( giving him the opportunity to know if someone---his wife--is telling lies about him) 2) I am shocked and disappointed in you and i I encourage you to do the right thing and stop this affair.

 

My message is not changing. I do think she should not keep secrets and is the right thing to do and it is what I would do and I think she will feel better if she stops being party to secret keeping. If you are taking my words of ' it is the right thing to do' as some sort of condemnation if she doesn't then you misunderstand me. Adultery is the sin.....keeping it from her parents isn't a sin...it is just IMO an unhealthy family dynamic and one I won't be involved in.

[albeto.]

Her SIL told her that her brother has moved out, is having an affair and has filed for a divorce. I guess there is a possibility that the SIL has flipped her lid and is making it all up....In family of secret keepers how would anyone know though? So for me, it would be a two fold reason to contact my brother....1)is this horrible thing I heard about you true? ( giving him the opportunity to know if someone---his wife--is telling lies about him) 2) I am shocked and disappointed in you and i I encourage you to do the right thing and stop this affair.

We're not talking about contacting the brother.

 

Again, I'm asking, in what way is it the right thing to do for Quill to tell her parents? I'm not talking about answering a question ("Why does she have a new address?"), but in response to your comments that it's the right thing to do, and she would feel relief for not keeping such an ugly secret.

 

My message is not changing. I do think she should not keep secrets and is the right thing to do and it is what I would do and I think she will feel better if she stops being party to secret keeping. If you are taking my words of ' it is the right thing to do' as some sort of condemnation if she doesn't then you misunderstand me. Adultery is the sin.....keeping it from her parents isn't a sin...it is just IMO an unhealthy family dynamic and one I won't be involved in.

 

I'm not reading you as condemning her for not taking your advice. What I don't understand is why she is being encouraged to take away her brother's ability to talk with his parents about his problems in his own way, a way her family seems to prefer. Why is it right for her to speak her "truth," but it's not right for her brother to control his relationship with his parents? Do you see what I mean?

 

She knows the source of her dear friend's pain. It's got to be a terrible burden. But in what way does harboring this burden give her the authority to take away her brother's right to conduct his relationship with his family in his way? Believing something is right is generally not reason to take control away from others. So why does this particular circumstance differ?

[Candid]

Thanks for explaining. To me this sounds like a person has the right to interrogate (for lack of better word) another person's affairs (general, not sexual) in order to decide whether or not to maintain an opinion of lesser character value. But... why is a person entitled to another person's private information for the sake of their own curiosity? If one is operating on Christian values, then the onus is to judge a person's character righteously (John 7:24). I can understand the argument that it is righteous to be entitled to another person's private affairs if one is going to continue in the same faith community, but does the bible talk about being entitled to investigate and judge non-community members? 

 

I reject the word interrogate. As I indicate he has the right to know and respond what has been said about him. I would certainly like that right. 

 

I should say that I would again turn to the sil and tell her you would like her to let brother know what she has told you. If she is lying you might learn enough when you tell her that to determine that. If so, he needs to know what she is saying to others. Suppose it is a lie and she is telling it to his boss? Or who knows who else? 

[Χά�ων]

This act of yours gets so old.

 

We get it. You are so beyond most of us on the board.

 

/waits for luhnahtic or goddess or momofsomeone to change her name again.

My act?

 

In this thread I have shown nothing but kindness and compassion towards quill. Over and over again I have validated her feelings while explaining in that it is none of her business.

 

While the acts of compassion and the voices of reason were brushed aside with a callous remark:  I have bolded the statement but have left it otherwise unchanged: 

 

 

Quill--You are a Christian, and your brother claimed (still claims?) those beliefs. Therefore you know that within the bounds of your shared faith, yes, you must speak with love about his bad choices. Others posting on this thread do not claim to adhere to that belief system, so they will not necessarily understand that loving interdependence. It is not likely to affect his behavior, and you cannot become enmeshed in an ongoing battle to manipulate him to change. Your posts do not indicate any desire to do that though--your posts are well-grounded in common sense, and I support you.

 

For those who claim he has not harmed anyone but Quill or changed, or that I (or others) sit in judgment on Quill's brother:

 

If he did this and repented, then it would not be my place to hold any judgment. I know more than one person who has done this and genuinely repented, and I have never, ever held this against these people. Their repentance was genuine, and each of these people worked hard over literally years to make amends.

 

Db, however, not only did this but has indicated no repentance at all. I don't care if his wife was a witch or not. You don't sleep with someone else unless you are legally divorced. Period.

 

I have known cheaters. My personal experience with more than one cheater (not my own dh, but I have known others, known them well) is that they are dishonest in many ways, at many times, and that they are remarkably self-serving. They are also mean to their wives and the people who are closest to them in an effort to protect the cheating relationship.

 

This is the reality of cheating. It is a series of decisions that does change a person, that does make them less trustworthy. He betrayed his wife, yes, but he has shown himself to be unworthy of real trust in so doing without repentance.

 

If anyone were to post that saying the same thing but instead of brushing off non-Christians the roles were reversed and Christians were brushed aside the thread would explode with accusations that posters were attacking Christians for their beliefs. I have seen it happen more than once.

 

With that said, not one person here has said that her beliefs or her very strong feelings were invalid but yet even those who have publicly stated they shared her views but disagreed that she is personally responsible for judging her DB without even hearing his side and making sure that their parents were made away of the situation. Quill wants everyone to say her DB is a horrible man and that she should the shining light to bring him around and return to his wife and be faithful. She feels it is her job to bring his actions to the attention of their family (under the guise of breaking the cycle of secrecy) so that he will be publicly shamed and see the error of his ways. I am not claiming to be of the same faith but I am not aware of any tenants of Christianity where this would be seen as a righteous. Quill seems to only want to hear how wonderful a person in doing this despite the very articulate explanations of why this is not the case. And despite what the scuttlebutt may be, I am not ignorant of Christianity.

 

When the comparison between assault and adultery was made and pronounced with great enthusiasm and repeated vigor to be of equal weight when it comes to a marriage I just assumed that no one could really believe that to be true and such I drew the conclusion that there is no way Quill, Scarlett and others were actually serious. It seems I was mistaken.

 

Before I sign off of this thread I would just like to include a small quote. It is actually one of my favorite. It is a story that I well known even outside of Christianity. It deals with an adulterous woman so I feel it is very relevant to this thread as a whole. I prefer the NIV translation.

 

"Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

 

Since being here I have had the pleasure of meeting many people who also agree with me that sometimes quotes are taken out of context and, like me, prefer to see a quote in context. Below is the entire story. I think Jesus was very wise and I think it could be a lesson for all.

 

 

John 8

1 Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.

3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group

4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.

5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"

6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger

7 When  they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.

10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

[albeto.]

I reject the word interrogate. As I indicate he has the right to know and respond what has been said about him. I would certainly like that right. 

 

I should say that I would again turn to the sil and tell her you would like her to let brother know what she has told you. If she is lying you might learn enough when you tell her that to determine that. If so, he needs to know what she is saying to others. Suppose it is a lie and she is telling it to his boss? Or who knows who else? 

 

 

When you suggested the brother gets the chance to defend his character, and that right now his character has been lowered in his sister's eyes, is that what you mean by he has the right to know and respond to what has been said about him?

 

Under what circumstances do you think someone is entitled to this kind of knowledge of the affairs of another person?

[Candid]

When you suggested the brother gets the chance to defend his character, and that right now his character has been lowered in his sister's eyes, is that what you mean by he has the right to know and respond to what has been said about him?

 

Exactly.

 

Under what circumstances do you think someone is entitled to this kind of knowledge of the affairs of another person?

 

 

I don't really see anything to be gained to Quill in speculation about other scenarios. This is the hand she is dealt. 

[albeto.]

Exactly.

 

Why doesn't he instead have the right to being judged righteously by a sister who professes a Christian faith?  I think Cat made an excellent point before about the character assassination due to one, admittedly painful and lamentable event. Is it righteous for this one event to warrant the assassination of his character as revealed in every other aspect of his life? Does he really have to give his sister intimate details, quite possibly painful and emotionally hurtful details to be awarded enough respect to allow him to control how to share his life with his parents?

[Trish]

Why doesn't he instead have the right to being judged righteously by a sister who professes a Christian faith?  I think Cat made an excellent point before about the character assassination due to one, admittedly painful and lamentable event. Is it righteous for this one event to warrant the assassination of his character as revealed in every other aspect of his life? Does he really have to give his sister intimate details, quite possibly painful and emotionally hurtful details to be awarded enough respect to allow him to control how to share his life with his parents?

 

Well we have all sinned, and if in fact we think our sins are smaller than another's (or at least less obvious) I don't think that gives us license to be the Voice of Morality for that other person, necessarily.

[Scarlett]

We're not talking about contacting the brother.

 

Again, I'm asking, in what way is it the right thing to do for Quill to tell her parents? I'm not talking about answering a question ("Why does she have a new address?"), but in response to your comments that it's the right thing to do, and she would feel relief for not keeping such an ugly secret.

 

 

I'm not reading you as condemning her for not taking your advice. What I don't understand is why she is being encouraged to take away her brother's ability to talk with his parents about his problems in his own way, a way her family seems to prefer. Why is it right for her to speak her "truth," but it's not right for her brother to control his relationship with his parents? Do you see what I mean?

 

She knows the source of her dear friend's pain. It's got to be a terrible burden. But in what way does harboring this burden give her the authority to take away her brother's right to conduct his relationship with his family in his way? Believing something is right is generally not reason to take control away from others. So why does this particular circumstance differ?

Again, IMO it is the 'right' thing or just 'the thing' to do to tell the parents. It is what I would do and what I have done. Quill would not be taking away his right to deal with his parents except keeping a separation, affair and divorce from them and if that is his goal then too bad---I won't keep that from my parents. And the reason is because my parents would not want that significant info kept from them. And I would not want that between my parents and myself...worrying that I would slip or wondering how much they knew etc.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Why do you shake your head here? Telling a third party about the affairs of a grown man and his wife is not for the sake of the grown man. It's not for the sake of the third party. It's for the sake of the one telling. It releases a burden of conscience perhaps, but it's not for anyone else's benefit. In what way could it be for anyone else's benefit? 

Actually it WOULD be for the sake of the third party. I've been that third party that wasn't told what was going on. This left me in a position to be lied to, TO MY FACE, by the cheater, and I had no idea. She did the same thing to her brother, my dh. We were completely hurt, betrayed, and felt like fools when we found out the truth from someone else. This is why family members have have the RIGHT to know about an affair on the part of a close family member; to keep them from becoming victims of the cheater as well.

 

 

I don't think Quill has a guilty conscience nor do I believe she should.

 

I would tell my parents about my brothers moving out / divorce/ adultery because my parents would feel like fools if they later found out it was kept from them.

 

I would not handle every adulterous situation the same.....but that is how I would handle this situation.

 

And whether adultery is abuse or not, both dh and I agree that it is emotional abuse.

[Scarlett]

Why doesn't he instead have the right to being judged righteously by a sister who professes a Christian faith? I think Cat made an excellent point before about the character assassination due to one, admittedly painful and lamentable event. Is it righteous for this one event to warrant the assassination of his character as revealed in every other aspect of his life? Does he really have to give his sister intimate details, quite possibly painful and emotionally hurtful details to be awarded enough respect to allow him to control how to share his life with his parents?

I don't see a character assassination . But I also don't see it as one lamentable event. He is continuing on a course of very deliberate action. Carrying on an affair takes repeated deliberate effort. Moving out takes deliberate effort. Filing for divorce takes deliberate effort.

 

And who said anything about asking him for intimate details?

 

Good grief.

[Scarlett]

My act?

 

In this thread I have shown nothing but kindness and compassion towards quill. Over and over again I have validated her feelings while explaining in that it is none of her business.

 

While the acts of compassion and the voices of reason were brushed aside with a callous remark:  I have bolded the statement but have left it otherwise unchanged: 

 

 

 

If anyone were to post that saying the same thing but instead of brushing off non-Christians the roles were reversed and Christians were brushed aside the thread would explode with accusations that posters were attacking Christians for their beliefs. I have seen it happen more than once.

 

With that said, not one person here has said that her beliefs or her very strong feelings were invalid but yet even those who have publicly stated they shared her views but disagreed that she is personally responsible for judging her DB without even hearing his side and making sure that their parents were made away of the situation. Quill wants everyone to say her DB is a horrible man and that she should the shining light to bring him around and return to his wife and be faithful. She feels it is her job to bring his actions to the attention of their family (under the guise of breaking the cycle of secrecy) so that he will be publicly shamed and see the error of his ways. I am not claiming to be of the same faith but I am not aware of any tenants of Christianity where this would be seen as a righteous. Quill seems to only want to hear how wonderful a person in doing this despite the very articulate explanations of why this is not the case. And despite what the scuttlebutt may be, I am not ignorant of Christianity.

 

When the comparison between assault and adultery was made and pronounced with great enthusiasm and repeated vigor to be of equal weight when it comes to a marriage I just assumed that no one could really believe that to be true and such I drew the conclusion that there is no way Quill, Scarlett and others were actually serious. It seems I was mistaken.

 

Before I sign off of this thread I would just like to include a small quote. It is actually one of my favorite. It is a story that I well known even outside of Christianity. It deals with an adulterous woman so I feel it is very relevant to this thread as a whole. I prefer the NIV translation.

 

 

Since being here I have had the pleasure of meeting many people who also agree with me that sometimes quotes are taken out of context and, like me, prefer to see a quote in context. Below is the entire story. I think Jesus was very wise and I think it could be a lesson for all.

For some reason I can't quote the passage....but this part is noteworthy as well....

 

 

Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

[Scarlett]

Actually it WOULD be for the sake of the third party. I've been that third party that wasn't told what was going on. This left me in a position to be lied to, TO MY FACE, by the cheater, and I had no idea. She did the same thing to her brother, my dh. We were completely hurt, betrayed, and felt like fools when we found out the truth from someone else. This is why family members have have the RIGHT to know about an affair on the part of a close family member; to keep them from becoming victims of the cheater as well.

 

 

 

And whether adultery is abuse or not, both dh and I agree that it is emotional abuse.

 

 

This has happened to me...I was very close to my best friend and her husband and he lied through his teeth repeatedly to me.  It is what a family culture of secrecy breeds.

[Joanne]

I would venture to guess if you've been betrayed you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the comparison.

But, as stated, i was just curious where it was OK to get involved in someone's marriage and where it wasn't.

 

Damaging mind or body is bad, get involved.

Damaging hearts, marriage or family structure is fine, stay out

I'll grant that I can't expect you to know my history. But I actually referenced it in this thread!

 

Next, no one is saying damaging family structure or hearts is fine.

 

You are making a leap that is not supported by the content of the thread.

[nmoira]

For some reason I can't quote the passage....but this part is noteworthy as well....

 

 

Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

But surely Quill isn't Jesus in this scenario?

[LucyStoner]

Joanne-  Totally OT and perhaps not the thread to mention it but your kids are so nice and friendly looking and your daughter is gorgeous.  You must be so proud.  I don't even know you and that avatar picture makes me smile. 

[Scarlett]

But surely Quill isn't Jesus in this scenario?

 

 

I have no idea what that poster was trying to say.  But if we are going to talk about Jesus saying not to cast stones we need to remember he also said to stop sinning.

 

And we are not Jesus of course...he was a perfect man, but we do attempt to imitate him.

[albeto.]

And the reason is because my parents would not want that significant info kept from them. 

 

to keep them from becoming victims of the cheater as well.

 

I see. Thanks for the explanation.

 

 I can see how you guys, in your families, would react this way. In other families however, people don't necessarily consider themselves "victims" because others don't share private business. Entitlement of information isn't necessarily expected. Surely Quill knows how her family would prefer.

 

It seems to me then that this isn't a matter of who has what right, but the focus would be on what the family would prefer. Doing that would be the kind thing.

[Scarlett]

I see. Thanks for the explanation.

 

 I can see how you guys, in your families, would react this way. In other families however, people don't necessarily consider themselves "victims" because others don't share private business. Entitlement of information isn't necessarily expected. Surely Quill knows how her family would prefer.

 

It seems to me then that this isn't a matter of who has what right, but the focus would be on what the family would prefer. Doing that would be the kind thing.

 

 

Well, I do agree with that to some extent.  (I about fell over saying I agree with you, ;))

 

However, Quill has specifically stated on a number of occassions that she is not comfortable with the way her family operates.  And who knows how many of them are comfortable with it.  Sometimes a pattern gets set and it takes one  person to change it.

[Guest]

 

 

I'm not reading you as condemning her for not taking your advice. What I don't understand is why she is being encouraged to take away her brother's ability to talk with his parents about his problems in his own way, a way her family seems to prefer. Why is it right for her to speak her "truth," but it's not right for her brother to control his relationship with his parents? Do you see what I mean?

 

Albeto, he has the right to say whatever he wants to my parents. He is free to say anything he likes. So far, I don't think he has said anything at all. It would not surprise me if he does not say anything at all. It's not a conversation he wants to have with my very devout Christian parents, I guarantee you, no matter how he wants to phrase it, no matter how rosy he wants to project himself to be. For me to say, "Are you aware that Brother has filed for divorce?" does not remove his ability to say whatever he wants to my parents, whenever he so desires. And IF I do tell them, "It's because he found someone new," (I may not; it depends on whether they knew the first part and how they react), they again have every right to hear whatever he wants to say. He can say his affair is a figment of my imagination; he can say his ex is delusional - whatever. 

 

And FWIW, it's not that my parents *prefer* to let people handle their own drama. They like to live in the world of Everybody Does The Right Thing. They would say nothing about the most obvious problems, simply because they cannot negotiate dealing with ugly events or people messing up. 

[albeto.]

Well, I do agree with that to some extent.  (I about fell over saying I agree with you, ;))

How nice of you to say. 

 

However, Quill has specifically stated on a number of occassions that she is not comfortable with the way her family operates.  And who knows how many of them are comfortable with it.  Sometimes a pattern gets set and it takes one  person to change it.

 

The compassionate thing wouldn't be to respond according to what makes Quill comfortable, it would be to respond according to what makes her parents and brother comfortable. Quill's comfort shouldn't be primary in this instance. I think this is the point many people have been trying to get across. I hope Quill is still reading because I don't think anyone here is trivializing her discomfort and pain in this, just to suggest that it isn't the focus in this particular setting. That Quill feels betrayed and vulnerable is quite understandable, and I think she has every right to address her emotional needs, but not by telling her parents. That's a separate issue. 

[texasmama]

(((hugs)))  Quill

 

Regardless of this thread or other people's opinions of what you should or should not do (mine included), this is a difficult and painful situation for you and your family.  I wish you the best in navigating it.

[Sahamamama]

Yeah, I get this. I find this a difficult spot to be in.  My mother is planning to visit cheater once she is well from her cancer treatment. I am nauseated knowing that she has no clue what's going on.  I think cheater will tell my mom about the divorce pending before she buys plane tickets, but I highly doubt he will tell the reason; he might not even say he is the impetus. 

 

And I don't want him to think it's okay with me that he's doing this. I stood for them at their wedding.  

 

In my book, that puts you in a role of having been a witness to his vows, the vows he made that day to his wife, to be faithful and to love, honor, and protect her, and so on. When we make those vows, in the presence of witnesses, then those people really can, even years later, remind us of what we said and the commitments we made -- "in the presence of these witnesses." I know that sounds old-fashioned, I know. But then why have a wedding, if not to have a community of family and friends who will witness the meaningful events of our lives?

 

Yes, if I had been close enough to them to have been in the wedding, then I would probably feel okay about telling him how I feel. Catwoman is right, though, you might want to wait a bit and see how it all plays out before you put your heart out there. :grouphug:

[Joanne]

Joanne- Totally OT and perhaps not the thread to mention it but your kids are so nice and friendly looking and your daughter is gorgeous. You must be so proud. I don't even know you and that avatar picture makes me smile.

Thank you! The avatar is me and my youngest son.

[Guest]

 

The compassionate thing wouldn't be to respond according to what makes Quill comfortable, it would be to respond according to what makes her parents and brother comfortable. Quill's comfort shouldn't be primary in this instance.

 

I disagree. Why is the comfort of the person who is doing wrong of primary consideration? When someone chooses wrong, they are creating the discomfort. If he was faithful to his wife, there would be no discomfort. 

 

 

[albeto.]

I disagree. Why is the comfort of the person who is doing wrong of primary consideration? When someone chooses wrong, they are creating the discomfort. If he was faithful to his wife, there would be no discomfort. 

 

The comfort of your parents would be primary. 

 

If they don't want to know, don't tell them.  

[Sahamamama]

I don't get all the "telling."  It's not her place to tell.  Sibling, friend, bridesmaid, whatever, it's not her marriage.  If her brother chooses not to tell, that's his business.  I'm sure her parents aren't complete idiots though.  Should they bring it up, then that's a different story, but IMO, she doesn't have to right to tell anyone.  We had a very similar situation in James Bond's family.  I won't get into the details, but it was an ugly ugly situation with JB's brother having an affair.  His wife was a friend of mine before I met JB.  Staying out of it was hard, but in the end, it was the best choice.  It wasn't our place to say anything.  Trust me, the truth did come out.

 

But it doesn't always. Or, it takes years to come out, and people are left wondering what's going on.....

[LucyStoner]

Thank you! The avatar is me and my youngest son.

 

Ok, then you need to share the water that makes you look so darn young.  I was thinking your "daughter" was your mini-me or something.  

[Sahamamama]

Now that I have read this post, I have changed my feelings somewhat.

 

First of all, your brother didn't betray you. No way. No how. Not at all.

 

He cheated on his wife. OK, you think the wife is a wonderful person, but maybe she's a lot different when she's alone at home with your brother. Or maybe he's just an idiot when it comes to the whole marriage and monogamy thing. Whatever the case, it's none of your business.

 

IMO, there is no excuse for cheating, so I'm not giving your brother a pass on this, but he's your brother. Your SIL is a friend. There is a big difference there. You say he's not as you believed him to be, but maybe it's time to recognize that even your wonderful brother has some flaws. He is still the same person he always was. You're just viewing him differently right now because of the current circumstances.

 

If you and your brother are close, why not just give him a call and ask him how he's doing? Why not listen to his side of the story? Maybe your SIL isn't as innocent as you think she is. You just don't know for sure. Of course, you can tell him that you don't agree with his choices, but you should also remind him that he's still your brother and you still love him. In all honesty, I would never side with your SIL until I'd heard your brothers side of the story.

 

And if your brother has always been a great guy, why would you want him to be ratted out to your parents? Why would you want to get him into trouble with them?

 

I was under the mistaken impression that your brother was some sort of Bad Seed, but it sounds like he's an otherwise terrific guy whose marriage has hit the skids.

 

I don't see why that would affect your relationship with him. :confused:

 

Alright, I'm going to get all judgmental on this, but no, no, and a thousand times, no. If his marriage is falling apart on its own, then go to counseling or get a divorce. Cheating your way into a divorce, in my book, does not make you a terrific guy.

 

I'm not of the "blood is thicker than water" mindset. Loyalty, for me, is based on behavior and moral compass, not simply a shared gene pool.

[Guest]

The comfort of your parents would be primary. 

 

If they don't want to know, don't tell them.  

 

You said my "parents and brother." Keeping my parents AND BROTHER comfortable. That's bull. I don't plan to do anything to hurt my brother, but let's not forget who perpetrated wrong, here. The only part they "don't want to know" is that my wonderful brother could - and IS - doing something that they abhor. If it is uncomfortable for them to learn of it, then that responsibility rests on my brother. If he wasn't doing anything they abhor, there would be nothing uncomfortable for them to learn. This is one of the (many) reasons why I reject the notion that the only people who have any role in an affair are the man, woman and mistress. 

[Scarlett]

How nice of you to say.

 

 

The compassionate thing wouldn't be to respond according to what makes Quill comfortable, it would be to respond according to what makes her parents and brother comfortable. Quill's comfort shouldn't be primary in this instance. I think this is the point many people have been trying to get across. I hope Quill is still reading because I don't think anyone here is trivializing her discomfort and pain in this, just to suggest that it isn't the focus in this particular setting. That Quill feels betrayed and vulnerable is quite understandable, and I think she has every right to address her emotional needs, but not by telling her parents. That's a separate issue.

His comfort would be the least of my concerns. I would not want to hurt my parents needlessly, but the brother has done the hurtful thing. Telling the truth is not the hurtful thing.

[Scarlett]

But it doesn't always. Or, it takes years to come out, and people are left wondering what's going on.....

So true.....a truth was kept from me for SEVEN years....when I found out, I spent a lot time rethinking everything that I once thought was true.

[Sahamamama]

I can attest that it's not my naked woodman. He's still recovering from a party last weekend and hasn't strayed far from home.

 

I remember him. Moira, is that guy STILL chopping wood -- axe and everything swinging -- in the nude? Hasn't he had an accident yet? Wow.

 

I needed to picture that today, LOL.

[albeto.]

:laugh:

[Sahamamama]

I'd forgotten about my cousin's first husband until you mentioned this. She found out he was cheating when she tested positive for an STD. :glare:  Turns out he got it from her best friend. Isn't giving someone an STD and not telling them considered a form of assault?

 

 

Years ago, I lost a close friend, who died from AIDS, which she contracted from her husband. He was cheating on her, with numerous men. He died of AIDS, and nearly three years later, so did she. IMO, he killed her, because he knew what kind of behavior he was engaging in and what the risks were.

 

They left two children behind.

 

Another friend of ours is still dealing with gonorrhea, which she contracted from her husband (now ex-husband). He visited prostitutes.

 

Aren't these diseases as life-changing and as life-threatening as physical abuse?

[nmoira]

I remember him. Moira, is that guy STILL chopping wood -- axe and everything swinging -- in the nude? Hasn't he had an accident yet? Wow.

 

I needed to picture that today, LOL.

 

 

No. It was just the once. He was using a chain saw the next day (but clothed). 

[Sahamamama]

So true.....a truth was kept from me for SEVEN years....when I found out, I spent a lot time rethinking everything that I once thought was true.

 

Yeah. It took me twelve years to tell my parents that I had been raped at my grandmother's house at the age of 12, and then they had to rethink everything they thought was true about my adolescence. "We thought you were moody, but we didn't know why." :huh:

 

Secrets rot.

[Danestress]

Cat I think she is saying he won't tell his parents and the family culture dictates that no one else will either.

 

I would tell them.

I wouldn't. If neither the sibling nor the wronged spouse wants to share that info, I would not do it myself. Some wronged spouses want the world to know. Others consider that very personal or want to keep the kids from knowing. I think it is hers to share or not to share, but definitely not mind to share.

[Χά�ων]

Since you quoted me and engaged me, I am assuming you wish to engage in a discussion, that is fine. I like discussions that take me out of my comfort zone and challenge my world views. If I do not reply right away it is do to not being near a computer.

For some reason I can't quote the passage....but this part is noteworthy as well....

 

 

Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

 

I see, so it is not sinful to encourage someone to engage in a behavior that will harm others because the person was will be harmed (DB) did wrong? What about their parents? Going by quill's description I would have to wonder if they would be deeply hurt as well. What about their pain? 

 

I have no idea what that poster was trying to say.  But if we are going to talk about Jesus saying not to cast stones we need to remember he also said to stop sinning.

 

And we are not Jesus of course...he was a perfect man, but we do attempt to imitate him.

 

I do not recall a story of Jesus treating sinner like second class citizens, putting them down and lording over them how much better he was then them. Would you please post quotes where Jesus did this and quote where he instructed his followers to judge others. I am really trying to understand

 

I always thought it was:

 

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. ² For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

³ â€œWhy do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

 

 

Is the version I am reading incorrect? Is there another part that I missed that contradicts this passage?

[Sahamamama]

No. It was just the once. He was using a chain saw the next day (but clothed). 

 

Moira, this made me LOL. Oh, the visual image this creates.

 

Quill, I am sincerely sorry you are going through this situation with your brother. :grouphug:

[zoobie]

Here's where being an attorney comes in handy. Family calls for advice, and I can't share secrets. I tell them to give me a dollar and I'm a vault. ;)

 

My family member's husband cheated on her. He apologized, wanted to do counseling. She said no. She wanted out of the marriage herself, but for many reasons had not made any attempt to leave other than checking out mentally (and physically). Her parents were horrified she was getting divorced. She did not want to tell them about the infidelity, which would have shut them up some, but that was her decision to make. Another family member and his wife were going through infertility. They wound up using IVF to get pregnant. No one knows because the very Catholic parents would be upset because IVF violates tenants of their faith.

 

It's not my place to judge anyone else. I can give them my opinion and recommendations, but after that, it is up to that adult to choose his path.

 

At any rate, even if I weren't (sorta kinda) bound to confidentiality, those stories are theirs to tell. Not mine. It's a pretty good gauge for sharing information IMO. When I am directly asked, I do not lie. I say, "You need to ask [the individual]." I've told my parents and grandparents this. I thought my grandfather was going to be mad, but he respected my silence.

 

DB isn't a minor. He isn't in danger. The story is his or his wife/ex-wife's to tell. You can tell him you love him and you are praying for him, and that neither condones his behavior nor violates your beliefs. It must be very hard to see your much loved brother struggling.

[Scarlett]

 

 

 

I do not recall a story of Jesus treating sinner like second class citizens, putting them down and lording over them how much better he was then them. Would you please post quotes where Jesus did this and quote where he instructed his followers to judge others. I am really trying to understand

 

 

 

Totally confused now.  Are you implying anyone is suggesting that Quill do any of the above to her brother?

 

I pointed out that Jesus told her to stop sinning. 

[Guest]

This entire discussion is completely interesting and distressing at the same time.  All I keep thinking about is that Jesus brought sinners to him. When all others shunned them and pushed them away, Jesus sat among them. 

 

Then he told them to repent and sin no more.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I see. Thanks for the explanation.

 

 I can see how you guys, in your families, would react this way. In other families however, people don't necessarily consider themselves "victims" because others don't share private business. Entitlement of information isn't necessarily expected. Surely Quill knows how her family would prefer.

 

It seems to me then that this isn't a matter of who has what right, but the focus would be on what the family would prefer. Doing that would be the kind thing.

It's being lied to and made a fool that made us feel like victims of the cheater. That would not have been possible to do to us if we had known. THAT is why, not because they'd didn't "share private business."

[Candid]

Why doesn't he instead have the right to being judged righteously by a sister who professes a Christian faith?  I think Cat made an excellent point before about the character assassination due to one, admittedly painful and lamentable event. Is it righteous for this one event to warrant the assassination of his character as revealed in every other aspect of his life? Does he really have to give his sister intimate details, quite possibly painful and emotionally hurtful details to be awarded enough respect to allow him to control how to share his life with his parents?

 

Please don't put words in my mouth. I am no where suggesting that she quiz him for intimate details, but to give him a chance to clear his name if what she has been told is incorrect. OR maybe to be told it was one time but sil won't forgive him. He is the only one who can provide that answer. Quill has already been told the negative information. All I suggest is she needs to say something like, "SIL told me you are having an affair." Then she just needs to listen. 

 

Further my whole post placed emphasis on those who are innocent of wrong doing: children and possibly sil. Maybe you haven't seen families where children never know their grandparents because of marital splits and grandparents either kept away from them my the mom or the grandparents keep away because their precious son can do no wrong and to face those children is to face his wrong. 

 

I suspect the heart of your disagreement with me is over this view: I see the destruction an adulterer has wreaked on his family, you see it as also personal detail that no one has a right to know about. I doubt we will be reconciled on this core. 

 

Christian faith pushes this sort of one on one honesty in many places: in Matthew 18 Christians are to go to some one who has hurt them and deal with in one on one first, in another place, they are told if they know someone has something against them they are to go and make it right, in another place they are told to confess their sins one to another. 

 

Honesty is part of the whole package of healing. Without honest there can be no healing for anyone. It's like leaving the pus in open wound and sewing it shut. 

[Trish]

I disagree. Why is the comfort of the person who is doing wrong of primary consideration? When someone chooses wrong, they are creating the discomfort. If he was faithful to his wife, there would be no discomfort.

Because you are contemplating the extent of your butting in to *his* situation. Re: info to your parents, do they not have a relationship with yiur SIL? Why hasn't SHE said anything about an address change or a divorce? If your brother is in fact filing for divorce, the affair partner is sort of a moot point, he'll be moving on one way or another.

[Trish]

You said my "parents and brother." Keeping my parents AND BROTHER comfortable. That's bull. I don't plan to do anything to hurt my brother, but let's not forget who perpetrated wrong, here. The only part they "don't want to know" is that my wonderful brother could - and IS - doing something that they abhor. If it is uncomfortable for them to learn of it, then that responsibility rests on my brother. If he wasn't doing anything they abhor, there would be nothing uncomfortable for them to learn. This is one of the (many) reasons why I reject the notion that the only people who have any role in an affair are the man, woman and mistress.

The best candidate to tell them is your SIL. Anything you have to say is hearsay, anyway. Are you that hell-bent on making sure they know, especially if it's likely to cause them great pain? What is to be gained by insisting that they know about your brother's affair?

[albeto.]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I am no where suggesting that she quiz him for intimate details, but to give him a chance to clear his name if what she has been told is incorrect. OR maybe to be told it was one time but sil won't forgive him. He is the only one who can provide that answer. Quill has already been told the negative information. All I suggest is she needs to say something like, "SIL told me you are having an affair." Then she just needs to listen.

I didn't put these words into your mouth; I didn't suggest you said Quill should quiz her brother for intimate details. You suggested that the brother's character has been lowered in Quill's eyes by what sil has told her, and that she needs to gently ask him about what her sil said. You said he deserves to defend his character to Quill. Confirming he's had an affair (other than being no one's business) isn't the same as defending one's character (which would, likely, include information that would seek to justify his behavior). If it's confirmation of an affair, I think that's inappropriate, but not nearly the same as expecting one to defend their character. Defending one's character would entail much more detail, explanations, rationalizations, and likely dredge up uncomfortable thoughts, feelings, realities. 

 

 

Further my whole post placed emphasis on those who are innocent of wrong doing: children and possibly sil. Maybe you haven't seen families where children never know their grandparents because of marital splits and grandparents either kept away from them my the mom or the grandparents keep away because their precious son can do no wrong and to face those children is to face his wrong.

In what way is this Quill's responsibility or authority?

 

I suspect the heart of your disagreement with me is over this view: I see the destruction an adulterer has wreaked on his family, you see it as also personal detail that no one has a right to know about. I doubt we will be reconciled on this core.

I disagree. I suspect the disagreement is over this view: Quill now has information about her brother's wrong doing. The real issue is whether or not Quill should reveal this information. Because Quill has the information, she feels obligated/authorized to disclose this information, lest it forever remain unknown.

 

Christian faith pushes this sort of one on one honesty in many places: in Matthew 18 Christians are to go to some one who has hurt them and deal with in one on one first, in another place, they are told if they know someone has something against them they are to go and make it right, in another place they are told to confess their sins one to another.

Wouldn't this take place between the brother and his wife? Where does Quill fit in?

 

Honesty is part of the whole package of healing. Without honest there can be no healing for anyone. It's like leaving the pus in open wound and sewing it shut.

 

This is a wholly subjective conclusion. In some families, a grown woman revealing her grown brother's marital infidelity would be tantamount to tattling, an immature response inspire by some emotional hope of not letting the sibling "get away" with doing something wrong. It would be not only a breach of privacy, but interpreted as arrogant meddling. That's also wholly subjective, of course. The point is, there is no "one" or "right" way to look at it. I'm coming from the second point of view, which is why this first point of view is so foreign and confusing to me. I appreciate your answering my questions, and addressing them with the sincerity with which they are asked, so thank you. :)

[Candid]

I didn't put these words into your mouth; I didn't suggest you said Quill should quiz her brother for intimate details. You suggested that the brother's character has been lowered in Quill's eyes by what sil has told her, and that she needs to gently ask him about what her sil said. You said he deserves to defend his character to Quill. Confirming he's had an affair (other than being no one's business) isn't the same as defending one's character (which would, likely, include information that would seek to justify his behavior). If it's confirmation of an affair, I think that's inappropriate, but not nearly the same as expecting one to defend their character. Defending one's character would entail much more detail, explanations, rationalizations, and likely dredge up uncomfortable thoughts, feelings, realities. 

 

 

 

Yes, you did, you have now used the word "quiz" and previously the word "interrogate." I have used neither of these terms. The use of both these words is an attempt to slant the discussion towards your point of view. While it is a classical rhetorical device, I can't admire it when you attempt to slant what I have said.

 

I will not respond to you further as you continue to engage in these kinds of rhetorical devices and I find myself further mired in moot issues. This in my view helps no one, least of all Quill. 

 

Quill, I urge you to go back and read my first post to you and my four commitments. 

[Χά�ων]

*Note* I exceeded the number of allowed quote blocks. I removed the block but otherwise left everything intact.


You encourage her to bear false witness and to engage in malicious gossip. That is not acting in imitation of Christ.

Highlighted in red is where you state what you would do and/or encourage her to engage in gossip or bear false witness

Highlighted in purple is where you contradict yourself about support or distancing her from her DB

 

Highlighted in green is where you change your tune.

 

Highlighted in blue is where you claim DB and SIL have made it public record and is such not gossiping or bearing false witness. There are legal newspapers if they desire to make it a matter of public record.
 

"You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness. You shall not fall in with the many to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the many, so as to pervert justice, nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his lawsuit."


By her own admission quill did not witness the affair, did not witness DB file divorce or even move out. She is getting her information from SIL, and has not called to confirm the story with DB. Anything she tell her parents is unsubstantiated gossip. Her actions will cause pain to her DB and her parents.


Leviticus 19:16 You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD.
Proverbs 11:13 Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets, but he who is trustworthy in spirit keeps a thing covered.
Proverbs 20:19 Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets; therefore do not associate with a simple babbler.
Proverbs 26:20-22 For lack of wood the fire goes out, and where there is no whisperer, quarreling ceases. As charcoal to hot embers and wood to fire, so is a quarrelsome man for kindling strife. The words of a whisperer are like delicious morsels; they go down into the inner parts of the body.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all stubbornly rebellious, going about with slanders; they are bronze and iron; all of them act corruptly.
Jeremiah 9:4 Let everyone beware of his neighbor, and put no trust in any brother, or every brother is a deceiver, and every neighbor goes about as a slanderer.
Psalms 41:7 All who hate me whisper together about me; they imagine the worst for me.
Proverbs 25:23 The north wind brings forth rain, and a backbiting tongue, angry looks.
Romans 1:28-32 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish—that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, hostility, slander, gossip, conceit, and disorder.
1 Timothy 3:9-11 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.
1 Timothy 5:13-14 Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.
2 Timothy 3:1-5 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
Titus 2:2-3 Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,





quote name="Scarlett" post="5175806" timestamp="1378299361"
I don't understand the secret mentality.

If I were in your situation I would tell my mom he was having an affair and he had filed for divorce. If more people would stand up and denounce affairs maybe fewer cheaters would keep at it.



quote name="Scarlett" post="5175859" timestamp="1378301042"
Quill, try not to think too far down the road.....relationships that begin as affairs have a really tough time of making it last longer than 5 years. I would be civil but distant from my brother if he did this ( and he has!).

As far as speaking up now, I definitely would. He will take your silence as condoning his adultery.



quote name="Scarlett" post="5176350" timestamp="1378315581"
Quill is asking about people you are close to. I think she even stood up with them at their wedding. If I am in your wedding or attend as a close friend and you promise before us and God to honor your wedding vows, I certainly will not keep quiet if you then choose to blatantly break those vows and destroy a family.

As far as not telling your parents, (If the cheater is a sibling), I would be furious if I was introduced to a 'new' person my child was dating and it was kept from me that this person was involved in breaking up my grand kids FOO.

Affairs thrive in secrecy and I will have no part of it. If I know someone is committing adultery I will not be keeping that secret.



quote name="Scarlett" post="5177510" timestamp="1378343598"
My relationships with people are very much affected when they lose their moral compass. I don't hang around or otherwise indicate support or approval of people who are blatantly destroying a marriage. Divorcing ones mate while having an affair isn't a marriage hitting the skids.

Quill not sure what you should do since your mom is sick...in MY family my mom would be FURIOUS if this was kept from her even if she was on her death bed...but your family is clearly different and I can see where you might not want to attempt a change at this stage of the game.



quote name="Scarlett" post="5178533" timestamp="1378395171"
Let me put it to you this way. I consider adultery to be morally wrong, and destructive to a wide pool of people---not just the married couple. The two people involved in adultery should not be allowed to cover up that morally wrong behavior. People have the right to know what they are dealing with. I wouldn't like it if someone hid from me that a new girlfriend/ boyfriend was a thief either.



quote name="Scarlett" post="5178536" timestamp="1378395242"
Well I would not be party to letting them ' decide' that their DIL was at fault.



quote name="Scarlett" post="5179139" timestamp="1378412944"
Who better really. SIL knows Quill loves her brother and to me that is the most reasonable person to talk to . Better than SILs own mom who likely would have no empathy or sympathy for her cheating SIL.



quote name="Scarlett" post="5179149" timestamp="1378413257"
The goal is to be open and honest. I would not post it on FB nor would I inform every soul I run into...but people closely involved have the right to know...for big reasons and small reasons.

I don't do secrets though. I don't live two lives and I don't want to be involved with people who do. And if someone close to me is living a double life I want to know it so I can distance myself from them. That is quite different than using discretion about mistakes we and our loved ones have made. I don't blab all my family and friend's mistakes (except those who have a direct right to know)....but that is different than deliberate ongoing two timing lying cheating.



quote name="Scarlett" post="5179927" timestamp="1378431336"
Wow, it did take a turn.

Just wanted to add a few things. Telling your parents isn't an effort to punish your brother or manipulate them. It is an attempt to stop keeping secrets. I am shocked how man people thinki it is wrong to tell your parents. Just the facts: brother left his wife, has a girlfriend and has filed for divorce.

Expressing your disappointment in his adultery is hardly 'throwing him under the bus'. This is not a either or situation. You can be disappointed and still love him.



quote name="Scarlett" post="5180640" timestamp="1378470384"
First, it is highly doubtful that her brother has changed his moral belief that adultery is wrong. Much more likely that he is behaving much like a drug addict and doing what feels good at the moment. He Is violating his own moral belief. Most likely. Quill can probably discern that when she calls him.

Second, whether or not his belief system has changed he has moved out and filed for divorce! It is a matter of public record now so I am unclear why it is such a big deal to inform her parents. Nowhere did she talk about "spreading it around".


quote name="Scarlett" post="5180970" timestamp="1378481588"
I am weary now but just want to say that I realize there are very different POV on this board about adultery, family boundaries etc. I don't support excessive blabbing, fb outings or ranting on the brother. I don't support "cutting him out of ones life" .

What I would do ( which is what the thread title asks) is bring it out in the open with the brother. And letting him know I believe he has made a grave mistake and if possible to change the course of what he is doing. I would express my love for him and I would further point out that accepting his new girlfriend would be very very difficult for me ( I realize that this is not a huge problem ATM since he lives 2500 miles away. ). Then if he didn't change his course I would indeed quietly distance myself from him.

If he did change his course and stop the adulterous behavior I would graciously support him even if the marriage does not survive.

As for the family culture of secrets.....I would not continue to be part of that. If my extended family is ' happy ' with that culture then they will learn that I am not going to follow along to get along.

So that is what "I" would do. I have lived much of this with family and friends and myself and I know how I feel about it.

Quill has expressed her feelings on much if this many times in the past. I encourage her to follow her instincts on breaking out of that mold. It can be done with kindness.



quote name="Scarlett" post="5181182" timestamp="1378488159"
I don't think Quill has a guilty conscience nor do I believe she should.

I would tell my parents about my brothers moving out / divorce/ adultery because my parents would feel like fools if they later found out it was kept from them.

I would not handle every adulterous situation the same.....but that is how I would handle this situation.