Pretty in Pink Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I'd love to open a discussion on the pros/cons of common core, if it's not been beaten to death already. I've had my head in the sand for the past year or so and largely avoided all discussions related to common core. If the topic has been exhausted could you please just link me to the appropriate threads? I ran a quick search but didn't find what I was looking for. The topic of common core came up today in a group of homeschooling moms and all I could gather was that common core is awful, that it's dumbing down curriculum across the board, that there will be no wrong answers in math class and everyone gets an 'A' for trying, etc. I'd like to find a substantive discussion on common core content. Thank you. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MommaOfalotta Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 :lurk5: :bigear: Same here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnificent_baby Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I haven't read through the discussion, but knew there would be some thread on this gifted forum. (I don't post here, just browse on occasion) http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/163332/1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I think at least one of the previous threads about CC in the Education forum was locked. I don't think it's as horrifying as its detractors claim nor as wonderful as its proponents claim, but it's hard to find a balanced overview. The best place to start is to read the standards for yourself, as many of the claims I've heard others make about them do not stand up to any scrutiny. Here's what Maria Miller of Math Mammoth has to say about Common Core math standards, including her thoughts on whether CC dumbs them down: Now that I've studied them in detail, I have found a few that are "out of place", but for the most part, I feel the standards are a VAST improvement over most of the states math standards, many of which were really long "laundry lists" that have caused the typical math curricula to be "inch deep and mile long". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City Mouse Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I think it boils down to the fact that many people just don't think the federal government should be telling the states what they should be teaching. I don't think it really matters what the standards are, those people are not going to be happy with them. Some states had their own standards that were "better" or more comprehensive, or something, so people in those states don't like that they think their state will lower standards since that is all that is required by the federal government even though states are welcome to continue to have higher standards. Other states have much lower standards for what is taught. The kids in those states may actually benefit from the higher standards and the accountability that comes with the new standards. The idea is that if the standards are consistant between states, then kids who move arrond will have similar schooling in all states. We have experienced that first hand when moving from Texas to a stae with lower standards. My DD spent years in school in Texas where she started taking high school credit courses as a 7th grader. When we moved to a very small district in a neighboring state before she started 11th grade. While there were some great opportunities for her at this school that she would not have had in Texas, the academic requirement were much lower. When she started her senior year she only needed English to graduate. She didnt have to take any more science classes in this state because she had three sciences class by the end on 10th grade. Texas will probably never adopt the common core standards just because they (the legislators) do no want to be told what to do ny the federal government. The are other instances, unrelated to education, where Texas has declined federal money rather than do what the federal government wants. I have not read all the standards for every grade, but of what I have read nothing seems terribly unusual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty in Pink Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 I think it boils down to the fact that many people just don't think the federal government should be telling the states what they should be teaching. I don't think it really matters what the standards are, those people are not going to be happy with them. Some states had their own standards that were "better" or more comprehensive, or something, so people in those states don't like that they think their state will lower standards since that is all that is required by the federal government even though states are welcome to continue to have higher standards. Other states have much lower standards for what is taught. The kids in those states may actually benefit from the higher standards and the accountability that comes with the new standards. The idea is that if the standards are consistant between states, then kids who move arrond will have similar schooling in all states. We have experienced that first hand when moving from Texas to a stae with lower standards. My DD spent years in school in Texas where she started taking high school credit courses as a 7th grader. When we moved to a very small district in a neighboring state before she started 11th grade. While there were some great opportunities for her at this school that she would not have had in Texas, the academic requirement were much lower. When she started her senior year she only needed English to graduate. She didnt have to take any more science classes in this state because she had three sciences class by the end on 10th grade. Texas will probably never adopt the common core standards just because they (the legislators) do no want to be told what to do ny the federal government. The are other instances, unrelated to education, where Texas has declined federal money rather than do what the federal government wants. I have not read all the standards for every grade, but of what I have read nothing seems terribly unusual. Interesting. Re the bolded, this is my impression as well. On the surface the concept of having a common core seems sensible. I imagine there are people opposed for the sake of being opposed, because they hear "federal government" and "education" and that's that -- not saying that the federal government has always done a bang up job of improving the public school system, because it hasn't. I understand people being wary. I am very interested to check out the two sources linked above. Sometimes other parents just sound like broken records spitting out conservative soundbytes and it takes a bit of work to get down to the truth of the matter. I suspect that truth lies somewhere in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippen Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I've been watching how this plays out in our local school district based on what I'm hearing through friends who are teachers. What I'm hearing is that impacts on what/how/when they teach varies by subject and grade. I know some teachers who aren't going to be greatly impacted but I know some extremely unhappy 7th grade teachers. They're having to adjust from a science curriculum that they felt satisfied with in what content it covered to starting out the year with cells and finishing with teaching an entire quarter of evolution and fossils...without any classification. Regardless of your views on evolution, in a middle school classroom setting nine weeks is a very long time to be hanging on that topic, plus cuts out topics teachers feel would benefit students far more. My other concerns are what another overhaul in the system will do financially to districts, and what stupid choices districts will make to jump into CC without careful planning. We live in a large district and I'll bet the only fossils/fossil related supplies that are sitting in science classrooms and storerooms right now are those teachers or students have brought in through the years. Most schools have none and not a dime was budgeted to support the new curriculum. And the new 7th grade language arts curriculum landed in the hands of teachers five days before class started this year and included one set of teacher materials per teacher and one class set of student materials to be shared among five teachers and 145 students during the same hour. The district couldn't afford the curriculum they adopted so to use it teachers will either be shelling out their own money or illegally scanning/copying the books. Added to that the 7th grade is getting one-on-one laptops for the first time this year. The teachers were given a half day of training for this last spring and had the option of taking one other (unpaid) session on one computer topic this summer. Now the district can tout that the curriculum is aligned with the Common Core and technology is in the hands of every middle school student. What they won't tell is that the stress levels of their teachers is on the rise and morale is sinking fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 My dds are in a middle school that's just about fully implemented CC. They're working on the testing that will go along with it at this point. The biggest change I've noticed is in math. They have to be able to explain how they arrive at their answers. They could work the problem correctly but lose points on the written portion. It was difficult at first for many students but it gets easier, and I think it helps them understand the material better (at least it does with my dds). Language Arts' classes have implemented more discussion (like Socratic Seminars). I like it because the questions don't just have one correct answer and the students sometimes get really involved and fired up trying to defend their position. The other difference I've noticed is more collaboration between teachers and subjects. They try to tie material in across all subjects. I did that with homeschooling, so I like that part as well. The problem is that districts/schools decide how to implement the standards, and some will not do a good job. There are stories of advanced/Honors/AP classes being dropped. That's not happening here (we've actually added more), but some on this board have said it is happening in their areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 The problem is that districts/schools decide how to implement the standards, and some will not do a good job. There are stories of advanced/Honors/AP classes being dropped. That's not happening here (we've actually added more), but some on this board have said it is happening in their areas. I think districts/schools *should* be the ones that determine how to implement the standards. The mistaken notion that the federal government is dictating what curriculum, books, resources, and teaching methods must be used to implement Common Core standards is one of the biggest sources of misinformation about CC that I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I think districts/schools *should* be the ones that determine how to implement the standards. The mistaken notion that the federal government is dictating what curriculum, books, resources, and teaching methods must be used to implement Common Core standards is one of the biggest sources of misinformation about CC that I've seen. I agree. I wasn't saying they shouldn't be able to decide. I meant that the problems will come into play when some districts implement the standards poorly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I agree. I wasn't saying they shouldn't be able to decide. I meant that the problems will come into play when some districts implement the standards poorly. I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Honestly, CC is not relevant to homeschooling. They are not even good indicators of grade levels as grade levels have evolved over the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara R Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 My kids are in schools that have moved over to Common Core. What I've noticed: (1) In math they have to explain more why they do what they do, and I've noticed topics emphasized that I don't remember learning. My older daughter didn't have a good experience in math last year, but I suspect that was a teacher issue and not a Common Core issue. She has a new teacher this year so we will see how it goes. (2) The math book editing seemed rushed. I noticed a few poorly written problems or wrong answers in the back of the book. But I think this is growing pains related to any curriculum change, and not reflecting the curriculum itself. (3) "Informational texts" are to be read now as well as fiction. Critics are saying what a horrible thing this is, but though I was an English major, I'm in favor because in the real world/job market we do an awful lot of reading and writing of non-fiction. Training in that is useful. Those texts can be history or science texts. And it's wonderful for my Aspie daughter who really struggles with literary criticism. My daughter's elementary school is still using Saxon math, so I guess it can fit the standard. These standards are not curriculum. It's not dumbed down. My older child's school is using Socratic discussion and teaching the classics a la WTM (Gilagmesh, Homer and Beowulf in 9th grade, Dante's Inferno in 10th). Different schools can apply the same standards in very different ways. Some of the other criticisms I've seen from local (mostly homeschooling) critics seem, well, paranoid. They are worried that standardized essay tests will ask for personal information about families that will then be data mined and families will suffer some kind of consequences because of that. They are worried that the informational texts will be along the lines of refrigerator repair manuals. I am more concerned that the transition might be rough on my children, because it takes time for any big change like this to happen. It takes time for teachers and textbooks to adjust. I am a little suspicious because when my kids were younger they dealt with Investigations at the elementary school level. But Common Core seems like it could work out just fine. I'm a fan of E.D. Hirsch (The Schools We Need) and I believe he is one of the major proponents of Common Core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty in Pink Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 Sara R., I'm also a fan of Hirsch. I remember years ago, when I first began HSing, his Core Knowledge series was all the rage amongst homeschoolers as far as I could tell. It's really interesting what you say about students being asked to explain how they arrived at their answers. That makes sense. It seems like it would be time consuming in a typical classroom setting. Still, it's a valuable practice. Thank you for sharing your experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Sara R., I'm also a fan of Hirsch. I remember years ago, when I first began HSing, his Core Knowledge series was all the rage amongst homeschoolers as far as I could tell. It's really interesting what you say about students being asked to explain how they arrived at their answers. That makes sense. It seems like it would be time consuming in a typical classroom setting. Still, it's a valuable practice. Thank you for sharing your experience. Here it doesn't take up more time because the students are only doing it on homework and on tests. The homework is done at home (so no class time), and there are fewer questions on the tests (which means they can often end up with a low grade and only miss one or two problems). My oldest had trouble for the first quarter after it was implemented but now has the hang of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 They are worried that the informational texts will be along the lines of refrigerator repair manuals. If someone offered a class in reading and understanding repair and assembly manuals, I'd sign up for it instantly. Could you imagine if schools would actually teach a valuable life skill like that? I know that's not what they mean be informational texts in the Common Core, but I'd support their inclusion. Life would be so much less frustrating if dh and I were better at figuring out those instructions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 my local district switched to SM and ditched everyday math because SM is aligned with CC. They had been wanting to dump EM for a long time and wanting something better. I am not sure exactly how SM aligned itself, but the SM method won't change. I haven't noticed a difference in the SM books and my old text books still work with the new workbooks. I am guessing it was more of a change in presentation and paperwork. I know my NY district is specifically using the standards edition of SM CC is about setting the minimum standards for a grade, not what curriculum or method is used. I have no problem with that part of the CC agenda. I live in a part of the world that can get pretty snooty about education (Ivy league town) and I get sick of listening to it. If some sort of national standards were agreed to and followed it would shut a lot of mouths. It would give kids who live in states perceived as lax on education some traction instead of instant mental dismissal. What I don't like is the high stakes testing part. I have many friends who are public school teachers and I see how hard they work and I know how little control they have over how their students do on the tests. They hate how they are having to teach to the test, no matter what CC people say. Even if a test is a good one, when it is so important and so many things depend on it, everything becomes all about the test and not about the kids and their education. I don't have the answers. I don't think testing is unimportant, but I don't think it is as important as it is becoming. I think testing can provide some interesting information but I don't think it is diagnostic. I also think it is a way for a few corporations to make a whole lot of money, and I don't trust them to have my kid's best interest at heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 If someone offered a class in reading and understanding repair and assembly manuals, I'd sign up for it instantly. Could you imagine if schools would actually teach a valuable life skill like that? I know that's not what they mean be informational texts in the Common Core, but I'd support their inclusion. Life would be so much less frustrating if dh and I were better at figuring out those instructions. with some of the manuals I've seen recently perhaps what is needed is a class on the interpretation of Chinglish 😋 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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