Will someone please tell me to snap out of it?

[Jenny in Florida]

Our local schools are starting this week and next, depending on the county. My son is one of only two of his group of friends who is still homeschooling, although all of them did at some point.

 

Each of the guys is in a different school/situation. Of the three who are in public schools, two are a year older than my son and one is two years older. The eldest homeschooled until deciding to enter public school for high school. He and his parents opted to start him with in 9th grade, when he would be going in with all of the other new kids at the same time, rather than keeping him in 10th with his age peers. He is in one public high school. Two of the others are about a year older than my son, typical ages for their grades, and are in two different public high schools. My son "skipped a grade" in order to start a full high school schedule at home at the same time as his buddies, and because he was ready and enthusiastic about doing so. The other remaining homeschooler is a year younger and two grades behind and, therefore, in a very different place.

 

The ones in the various public high schools are all posting their class schedules on Facebook, comparing notes and chatting with friends at their own schools about who has which classes with whom, and I'm having a bad case of . . . something. Partly, it's a recurring stab of mourning the wonderful, personalized, classically-inspired education I planned for this kid, which got shunted aside when we discovered we could not find a way to work together on school any longer. (For a more complete version of the story, take a look at my post in Pretty in Pink's thread about her son's 9th grade year.) Partly, as I look at the schedules packed with presigious-sounding AP courses, I begin (again) to doubt our choices for my son for this year. And -- and it doesn't make me feel proud to admit this -- partly it's just plain old competitiveness/envy/whatever that the path my son is choosing just doesn't sound as brag-worthy as those of the other kids.

 

I hate that part of myself. I've worked really hard over a number of years to quash it. I try not to let it out to play when there's anyone else around to see. But then I look at class schedules like this one:

 

AP English Comp

AP Psych

Analysis of Functions

Italian 3

Journalism

US History

Physics

 

Or this one:

 

AP Physics BC

AP Calculus AB

AP English Language & Composition

AP US History

Music History

Wind Ensemble

Honors Choir

 

And suddenly my own son's plan for the fall semester, which includes:

 

Composition I (dual enrollment)

U.S. Government (dual enrollment)

Stagecraft (dual enrollment)

Latin 2

Physics

 

Well, it looks like slackertown.

 

And, yes, he happens to run with a group of unusually bright kids. And, yes, I happen to know that each of the kids posting those laundry lists of AP classes had issues with one or more equally rigorous classes last year that resulted in them earning one or more C's and even, in one case, actually flunking a class, while my own kid narrowly missed a 4.0. But I'm still uncomfortably bothered by the surface-level comparisons.

 

Ugh.

 

Will someone knock some sense into me, please?

[Parrothead]

Duel enrollment? As in your kid is taking college level classes while his friends are taking high school level, yet AP, classes? Do you see it now?

[Mom22ns]

Do you have some math planned? You have 5 credits listed there. Assuming the 3 college classes swap out for 3 more in the spring, he ends up with 8 credits, 6 of which are college level. How on earth would that be slackertown? Their schedule is the work for the whole year, not just the first semester.

[GailV]

Around here the high school kids would be blown away that he's in 3 college classes.  Yeah, AP classes sound swanky, but your boy is already going to college!

[Lori D.]

And suddenly my own son's plan for the fall semester... Well, it looks like slackertown.

 

Here's my 2 cents worth to give you a shot in the arm:

 

DS's friends will earn a total of SEVEN credits, with one friend doing 4 APs and the other doing 2 APs. More and more due to the vastly varying quality of AP, many colleges are beginning to look on AP more like a high school honors. At *best*, depending on the colleges the friends go to, those APs MAY be worth college credit *IF* they score high enough on the tests and IF the college grants credit (not all do).

 

In contrast, your DS will earn EIGHT credits by the end of the year (assuming he does another 3 dual enrollment classes in the spring), and SIX of those credits will *definitely* be college credit -- they were earned in a college setting, at the faster pace of learning and higher level of information and expectation.

 

Also, your DS is doing more than half of his school at college right now -- while the friends are completely still doing high school work, and with a whole lot more wasted time and far less free time to also be indulging personal interests or extracurriculars.

 

Sounds like you and your DS are the SMART ones! ;) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Melissa B]

Jenny - I think your schedule looks perfectly fine and very competitive.

 

However, in regards to those saying that it will be 8 credits, that isn't actually true. The state of Florida has dictated how much high school credit each dual enrollment college class is worth and even if you change it for your homeschool transcript (I have heard) that the college admissions evaluators (for Florida colleges) will readjust it to match the rest of the FL public school transcripts.  So Comp I will be 1 credit but the other two classes will be .5 credits each.  :)

 

 

[Nscribe]

Doesn't your son dance? 

[Catwoman]

SNAP OUT OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

(Hey, you wanted someone to say it, right? ;))

 

Seriously, though, don't get caught up in comparing your ds's schedule to those of other kids. First, his schedule is just as tough, and secondly, even if it wasn't -- so what? Your ds is so busy with his dancing that I can't possibly imagine him adding more academics to his schedule, particularly when he's already way ahead of the game by taking the college classes.

 

His schedule sounds great to me!

[Sunshine State Sue]

:grouphug: I hear sadness as the homeschool friends disappear.  I hear sadness that your idea of a high school education slammed into teenage boy brick wall.  Part of the reason I homeschool is to be able to meet my son's academic abilities exactly where he's at.  I don't want to discourage him with something too difficult, and I don't want anything so easy that he's slacking.  I suspect that you are doing your darndest to do the same.  That's a good thing.

 

One thing I would suggest would be to try to find the cold, hard facts of the success of the local AP classes.  Around here, it's pretty dismal.  It may be shocking and comforting.

 

 

[Jenny in Florida]

Do you have some math planned? You have 5 credits listed there. Assuming the 3 college classes swap out for 3 more in the spring, he ends up with 8 credits, 6 of which are college level.

He anticipates taking a math class at the community college in the spring semester.

 

Around here the high school kids would be blown away that he's in 3 college classes.  Yeah, AP classes sound swanky, but your boy is already going to college!

I keep trying to remind myself of this.

  

Here's my 2 cents worth to give you a shot in the arm:

 

DS's friends will earn a total of SEVEN credits, with one friend doing 4 APs and the other doing 2 APs. More and more due to the vastly varying quality of AP, many colleges are beginning to look on AP more like a high school honors. At *best*, depending on the colleges the friends go to, those APs MAY be worth college credit *IF* they score high enough on the tests and IF the college grants credit (not all do).

 

In contrast, your DS will earn EIGHT credits by the end of the year (assuming he does another 3 dual enrollment classes in the spring), and SIX of those credits will *definitely* be college credit -- they were earned in a college setting, at the faster pace of learning and higher level of information and expectation.

 

Also, your DS is doing more than half of his school at college right now -- while the friends are completely still doing high school work, and with a whole lot more wasted time and far less free time to also be indulging personal interests or extracurriculars.

 

Sounds like you and your DS are the SMART ones! ;) Warmest regards, Lori D.

I definitely appreciate that shot, Lori (especially from you).

 

As Melissa mentioned, though, in Florida the equation is not as simple as three dual enrollment credit hours = one high school credit. There are written guidelines about how much credit high schools (even homeschools) are allowed to grant for dual enrollment courses. Essentially, as I understand it, the rule is that the amount of high school credit granted may not exceed the amount that the student would earn taking a high school course that fulfilled the same requirement. So, most three-credit hour math courses earn one high school credit, because they are used to replace a traditional one-credit high school math course. Freshman Comp 1 earns one credit, because it replaces a traditional one-credit high school English course. U.S. Government, even though it is three credit hours at the college, earns half a credit on the high school transcript, because it replaces American Government, which is a half-credit course in local schools. Foreign language courses, which are usually four credit hours, earn a full high school credit, because they replace a whole year of high school-level instruction.

 

Most three-credit hour courses that are not explicitly listed in the official document that explains this policy are lumped together as "electives" are are to be awarded only half a high school credit.

 

Clear as mud, right?

 

Jenny - I think your schedule looks perfectly fine and very competitive.

 

However, in regards to those saying that it will be 8 credits, that isn't actually true. The state of Florida has dictated how much high school credit each dual enrollment college class is worth and even if you change it for your homeschool transcript (I have heard) that the college admissions evaluators (for Florida colleges) will readjust it to match the rest of the FL public school transcripts.  So Comp I will be 1 credit but the other two classes will be .5 credits each.  :)

You're right, Melissa, with the one wrinkle that Stagecraft is four credit hours and, as I read the DOE document, therefore counts as a full high school credit.

 

Also, the plan is for him to take four classes on campus next semester, I think. With that in mind, he should end the year with:

 

Latin 2 = 1 credit

Physics = 1 credit

Composition = 1 credit

Stagecraft = 1 credit

CC Math = 1 credit

Government = 0.5 credit

3 additional CC courses TBD = 1.5 credits

 

For the equivalent of seven high school credits / 22 credit hours.

 

Doesn't your son dance?

Yep. Last week we signed him up for the unlimited plan at his dance school. He's officially enrolling in 9.5 hours of class per week, but the unlimited plan allows him to drop in and take as many classes of his level and below as he wishes and can fit into his schedule. Since he's at the senior level, this means he can pretty much take any class they offer that appeals to him for extra practice. He hopes to compete again this year, too. We'll know more about that after he finishes this week's intensive and does the required audition. Assuming it's roughly equivalent to last year, though, rehearsals for competitions and special events (holiday performances, etc.) will likely add an average of another couple of hours of dance to his schedule each week. And he's been asked to continue assistant teaching in a couple of tap classes for younger kids.

 

He's also signed up to do another year of volunteering at the local science museum. And he will be returning to his choir, which will likely ramp up their rehearsal schedule a bit in the spring in preparation for a brief tour this summer.

 

So, he definitely has a full plate in terms of extracurriculars.

 

However, in fairness to the other kids whose schedules I shared in my original post, I should say that none of the kids we know are slouches in that regard. The kiddo taking AP Psych and AP Comp is an officer in the school's Italian club and editor of a section of the school's paper. He is also very involved at the same church my son attends, not only participating in youth activities but serving as youth liason on a couple of the adult committees. The boy taking the four APs is a member of his school's marching band, jazz band, vocal jazz ensemble and concert choir (which is different from the honors choir that takes up a class period). He takes private voice lessons and sings with an excellent choir associated with a local college campus. The third high schooler has not posted a course schedule where I can see it, and I know fewer details about his extracurricular involvement. I do know that he is active in his school's drama club and does two or three productions on campus each year in which he frequently has featured roles. He also sings with the school's choir and is almost as involved at the church as the first kiddo.

  

SNAP OUT OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

(Hey, you wanted someone to say it, right? ;))

 

Seriously, though, don't get caught up in comparing your ds's schedule to those of other kids. First, his schedule is just as tough, and secondly, even if it wasn't -- so what? Your ds is so busy with his dancing that I can't possibly imagine him adding more academics to his schedule, particularly when he's already way ahead of the game by taking the college classes.

 

His schedule sounds great to me!

Thanks! I needed that!

  

:grouphug: I hear sadness as the homeschool friends disappear.  I hear sadness that your idea of a high school education slammed into teenage boy brick wall.  Part of the reason I homeschool is to be able to meet my son's academic abilities exactly where he's at.  I don't want to discourage him with something too difficult, and I don't want anything so easy that he's slacking.  I suspect that you are doing your darndest to do the same.  That's a good thing.

 

One thing I would suggest would be to try to find the cold, hard facts of the success of the local AP classes.  Around here, it's pretty dismal.  It may be shocking and comforting.

Oh, I certainly have tons of unresolved feelings about the change in direction my son's education took this past year. There is no denying that.

 

I wonder how one would go about finding that kind of information, about the local AP classes? I mean, I know how these particular kids scored on their exams last year, because they like to share that info. But I don't know how that translates into college admissions/credits. (And I'm not entirely sure it's healthy for me to dwell on the question long enough to research it. But I probably won't be able to resist. So, if anyone has suggestions for where to start Googling, I'd be interested?)

 

Okay, thank you, everyone. I think I feel better, for the moment, at least. I may need to come back here for a booster shot now and then over the next few weeks, though, as classes begin on the various campuses and the chatter continues . . .

[Jenny in Florida]

I wonder how one would go about finding that kind of information, about the local AP classes? I mean, I know how these particular kids scored on their exams last year, because they like to share that info. But I don't know how that translates into college admissions/credits. (And I'm not entirely sure it's healthy for me to dwell on the question long enough to research it. But I probably won't be able to resist. So, if anyone has suggestions for where to start Googling, I'd be interested?)

Well, it turns out to be easier than I thought to find information about this, and the verdict is . . . Florida actually does really well with AP:

 

http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/florida-again-tops-the-nation-in-advanced-placement-scores/1275904

 

"Last year, 27.3 percent of Florida's public high school graduates earned a 3 or above on a 5-point scale. That beat the national average of 19.5 percent. It also was up compared to the previous year, when about 24 percent of Florida's graduates got a 3 or better.

 

"Maryland was first in the country, followed by New York and Massachusetts.

 

"On another measure — AP participation — Florida was tops in the nation, with 53 percent of its 2012 high school graduates taking the exam while in school. This is the fourth year in a row that Florida ranked first among the 50 states. The national average for participation in the exam was 32.4 percent."

 

So, I'm pleased my son's friends have access to such a great program, but it doesn't do anything to salve my own less-than-praiseworthy feelings.

[Lori D.]

... in Florida the equation is not as simple as three dual enrollment credit hours = one high school credit. There are written guidelines about how much credit high schools (even homeschools) are allowed to grant for dual enrollment courses. Essentially..., the rule is that the amount of high school credit granted may not exceed the amount that the student would earn taking a high school course that fulfilled the same requirement...

 

Yes, some of our public school systems have the same rule -- credit is granted by amount of time of tush in seat (180 hours = one credit) -- NOT based on content, amount of material covered, or level of rigor. [My reaction to that ridiculous way of thinking -->  :confused1: ]

 

Any way you slice it, Jenny, your DS is doing COLLEGE level work, not the high school work his friends are doing -- even if FL will only grant 0.5 credit per class on the high school transfer. Regardless of the FL school system's petty credit-accounting system, any university that accepts transfer credits will count these credits as 6 COLLEGE classes (assuming another 3 dual enrollment credits in the spring). That's way more college classes than his buddies are going to get credited for! ;) And your DS is going to have a smooth transition into a university when he graduates, since he's going to already be used to how to take college classes! :)

 

:grouphug:  Hugs and encouragement -- and hurray  :hurray: for you doing the BEST job of high school administrating/counseling for your DS! :)

[Teachin'Mine]

Your son's schedule sounds great! I'll bet he thrives at college. : )

 

As an aside, I'm wondering how a student is taking Physics BC, which is calculus based, when they'll be just starting Calculus AB?

 

I'm a firm believer that actual college courses are more challenging and better prep for university than AP courses. Of course that's a totally unbiased opinion. :D

[Jenny in Florida]

As an aside, I'm wondering how a student is taking Physics BC, which is calculus based, when they'll be just starting Calculus AB?

This is far from my area of expertise, but I think this student took "regular," non-AP calculus last year. Would that make sense?

 

I'm a firm believer that actual college courses are more challenging and better prep for university than AP courses. Of course that's a totally unbiased opinion. :D

That's my feeling, too. And it's what I've read in a few of the getting-into-college books I've been perusing. Thanks for backing me up on that!

[Nscribe]

Jenny, SNAP OUT OF IT!.  Dd does choir and dance and the two just can't be compared in terms of how taxing they are weekly.  When she does a production with the theatre the intensity and disruption is not comparable to either.  They learn a great deal in these areas and if it is a matter of another AP or what they are doing, for kids like this the answer is clear for me...the extra AP or 2 is just not worth the trade off in the end.  By the time they reach the levels they are at in the performing arts they have put years of work into what they do, learning to invest yourself like that in a venture is something very valuable in life.  I am very familiar with the unlimited dance card, it saves us a great deal.  How likely is it that even having one would be worth it to a teen who is in their first year of dance?  These kids worked to be there, over a long time, and their bodies have to develop over time to handle it. 

 

It is hard not to fluctuate between seeing how incredible what they do is and thinking they could do more and/or are not doing as much as what peers may be doing.  Dd will sometimes have flashes of doubt and wonder if maybe she should do more on the academic side and less on the performing side.  They usually occur when a friend hits some sort of academic achievement she hasn't gone after.  I let it happend to me too.  We really do have to snap out of it, relish who they are and try not to fear that it will not be enough to give them options vis a vis their peer group when the final transcripts emerge.  They are learning and teaching us that they can't do it all, but they can do what they do very well and it matters.

[Teachin'Mine]

Jenny, yes that does make sense if he's already had some calculus. Glad to give you the back up!

 

So ... have you snapped out of it?

 

I can't wait to hear progress reports this year as I've no doubt he'll learn and grow in ways you didn't even expect. : )

[Jenny in Florida]

So ... have you snapped out of it?

 

I can't wait to hear progress reports this year as I've no doubt he'll learn and grow in ways you didn't even expect. : )

Honestly? Not entirely, at least not yet. At the moment, I'm still sitting here stressing about whether all the pieces we've planned for this year will work, whether he'll be able to adjust to the pace and workload of the college courses, whether he'll really be able to handle balancing the college stuff with the online high school stuff and dance and the 20 other things he wants to do, too. And, until I see him find his feet and start being successful, it's hard to feel like "he's going to college" stands up to "his friends are doing another year of AP."

 

I'll just have to be patient and see how things go over the next several weeks and months, but, as my family used to say, "While patience is a virtue, it ain't one of Jenny's."

[Teachin'Mine]

I love that last line! lol

[Sunshine State Sue]

Well, it turns out to be easier than I thought to find information about this, and the verdict is . . . Florida actually does really well with AP:Jenny,

 

You can see the various AP scores for each PS at the FL DOE website.  I'd love to see the % of students scoring 4-5.  In our PS, 31% take AP classes and 55% score 3-5.  I don't find that particularly impressive.

 

[scrapbookbuzz]

I'm first going to say:

 

"SNAP OUT OF IT!"

 

And second,

 

You know as well as the rest of us do that comparing yourself (your son) to others does absolutely no good whatsoever. Now go grab a friend and a cup of coffee and enjoy yourself!

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm first going to say:

 

"SNAP OUT OF IT!"

 

And second,

 

You know as well as the rest of us do that comparing yourself (your son) to others does absolutely no good whatsoever. Now go grab a friend and a cup of coffee and enjoy yourself!

I know! I know! I'm the first one to recite that "Parenting is not a competitive sport." And I can say with complete honesty that, although I love my son's friends (most of whom I've known for several years -- one since he was four), I wouldn't trade my own guy for any of them.

 

But every now and again I have to wrestle my inner tiger mom back into her cave.

 

And the funny part is that the only friends I really have in town are . . . wait for it . . . the moms of some of these same kids. Hence, my coming here to beg you all for help and perspective.

[KeepItGoing]

My question when I'm reading this is: Why are you homeschooling? What is your goal?

 

If your goal is to maximize his academic achievement, and if you are suspecting that the PS kids are actually getting more academics than you will be providing, then you don't need to snap out of it; you need to go investigate whether it's true that he'll get more out of the PS program, or see if you should improve the rigor of his program if that's appropriate. (I hate to be the dissenting voice here, but dual-credit courses are often less demanding than AP courses, depending, naturally, on both courses.)

 

But if you know why you're homeschooling—if he has activities that you need to provide for—if you believe he shouldn't be in PS—or if you have some other reason—if you're convinced that you're going to have him stay at home because this is the choice that is best for him, then it really is time to go relax, and focus on what you are trying to do. Re-evaluating whether you're asking enough of your child (or too much!) is exactly the sort of thing that we all need to do periodically as homeschoolers, stressful as it can be, and a window into someone else's life can offer us some information.

 

I hope that you can relax and enjoy the year, one way or another!

[Jenny in Florida]

My question when I'm reading this is: Why are you homeschooling? What is your goal?

 

If your goal is to maximize his academic achievement, and if you are suspecting that the PS kids are actually getting more academics than you will be providing, then you don't need to snap out of it; you need to go investigate whether it's true that he'll get more out of the PS program, or see if you should improve the rigor of his program if that's appropriate.

Thank you for your thoughts, but I'm afraid that ship sailed long ago.

 

My son has no interest at all in attending public school. He flirted with the idea two years ago when he was preparing to start high school, but decided he wasn't interested. In our area, it's very difficult to get credit granted for work done in homeschool at the high school level, making high school pretty much an all or nothing proposition. Either you enroll when the kid starts ninth grade, or you homeschool through to graduation. (The only people I personally know who have attempted to start a student in 10th grade eventually gave in and allowed their child to be placed in ninth and essentially start over.) In addition, the county administration has made it clear they do not recognize the grade skip we did to start my son in high school two years ago. As far as they are concerned, despite the fact that he could easily rack up the credits necessary to graduate by the end of the about-to-start academic year, he would only now be starting 10th grade.

 

And, no, I absolutely don't believe those kids are getting a better education. The fact is that, this past year, my son took most of his courses online with Florida Virtual School, which provides more or less the same curriculum used by our public schools. And, because he enrolled in FLVS as a homeschooler, he had more flexibility in course selection, allowing him to bump up an additional grade in English, for example. Because I'm not a fan of some of the FLVS math and science courses at the high school level, though, we looked elsewhere for those courses, the kind of personalized approach that is not possible in a public school.

 

And, because he could do these courses at his own pace and on his own schedule, he still had time to dance a lot, sing with his choir, read widely for pleasure, volunteer all over town, pursue his hobbies at home and get bored now and then.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that sending this particular kid to public high school would represent a step backward for him.

 

With only one or two years left to go before he heads off to college full time, though, the questions of what our goals are and why we homeschool are more or less water under the bridge. At this point, he is his own person, with his own goals and plans. My job now is to support him in pursuing them.

 

Unfortunately, none of this completely prevents me from occasional pangs of wistfullness, envy, doubt or any of 100 other less-than-laudable feelings.

[Wildcat]

Jenny, I agree with the others.

 

I also have felt very similar to you with regards to comparing my kids' schedules and those of ps & private schooled friends.

 

Now that I have graduated one and deposited him at college (just last weekend!), here is my take.

 

AP courses aren't as impressive overall as cc courses. I am well aware of the fact that ccs aren't all good, but neither are all high schools, nor are all AP classes. AP classes (the ones I am aware of locally) pretty much spoon feed the kids info and 'teach to the test'... ds' cc classes taught the *material* and then tested on it. The fact that he did well showed he could work on his own (class met 2 days a week), and that he studied the *material* and was prepared to be tested on it, rather than regurgitating material on a m/c test with a few structured essays.

 

We were told *flat out* by college admins that the cc classes made ds stand out to them, even above kids with lots of AP classes (and scores of 3 or higher). Why? Because it's COLLEGE work. It showed ds had the drive & maturity to go to COLLEGE while in high school--- that is seriously outside the 'comfort zone' of most kids. It showed that ds could handle (and handle well) COLLEGE level work. While most colleges still hand-hold a ridiculous amount of time, it's vastly different from high school. It also showed ds could manage his time.... things colleges also look at.

 

Around here, AP classes are abundant and the school boasts about the scores. Well, most get 1s or 2s, and the 'boasting' comes from the number of 3s and the few 4s and 5s compared to the "national average". It's slightly higher, but to me, the 'good' scores are stil very low, so what are those kids learning? The unis my ds applied to were very stingy about AP credit (with some counting as 'hours', but not an equivalent class, and most AP credit requiring a 4 for that stingy credit). However, the unis my ds applied to counted every cc class (save for the ones they had no equivalant for).

 

I didn't care one bit how much high school credit ds received for his cc classes. The policy of 1/2 credit vs a full credit for an AP class (both taught over one semester) is bs to me... it's simply to make DE less appealing to the kids so they will stay at the BM school and take AP classes. It keeps their butts in the seats and the school gets $$. Ds had enough credits to graduate, and that was what was important. The unis didn't even care about a 'total' as they had a check box of things they looked at like # of English classes, etc.

 

No matter how I slice it, cc classes are more impressive than AP classes (the majority of the time). In my opinion, the other moms should be slightly envious about your son's schedule.