Math U See - please help w/ placement and decide if this is The Fix we need

[abrightmom]

My DS9 is a struggling math student and has been from the get go. The dude's brain just doesn't think the way his older brother's and we're stuck in the mud. My fave programs are Math Mammoth  :001_wub:  and Christian Light. However, NEITHER of these options really click for this kid. HE likes Math Mammoth but every.single.day we end up in fits with tears and throwing of school supplies. We have gone back to MM over and over again as he wants to keep trying but it is truly a VERY overwhelming experience and he is now experiencing feelings of being a failure. Christian Light was a gift from God last year as he was able to "do math" with relative ease although I think he was underplaced. HOWEVER, we began to build consistency in math facts and feeling successful. We skipped the second half of CLE Math 2 and went right into 3 (the kid was held back a year so is an older student for his grade anyway). 2 was really too easy and boring .... 3 has seemed a better challenge and he finished thru LU304 in mid Spring. We have been away from math for a daunting move. 

 

The math wheels are turning again here and we are STRUGGLING. He was adamant about using MM and he passionately hates CLE. I believe that the decision as to what math my kid does is firmly in MY camp however his strong dislike gives me pause. I prefer MM so conceded to trying it ........ again. We had a heart to heart about past struggles and the reality that he'd need to start at the beginning of 3rd grade with MM.

 

We aren't out of the 2nd grade review and every day has been awful ..... I KNOW this isn't working for him. I KNOW it's a bad fit despite my adoration of MM and the incremental nature of it. He just.doesn't.get it. And the reality of life is such that I cannot spend every day dealing with fits over math because I am out of ideas as to how to demonstrate or explain each concept AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN in a way that will click in his brain.

 

Enter Math U See. I researched Crewton Ramone and was ga ga. It looks so much like MUS and MUS seems MUCH easier for ME to implement day to day. Steve Demme is an engaging teacher and the way he teaches makes absolute sense. My son NEEDS this type of instruction and SEEING every concept with those blocks is the KEY for him .... I am sure of it.

 

So, as I look at placement I feel disheartened as he'd likely be back in Beta.  :001_unsure:  And, it is a very different style than we are used to since it's uber mastery. Please help me to understand if going back to Beta would be worthwhile in the long run. I *think* it might be as this way of teaching math strikes me as PERFECT for this child. I have labored over math with him from the beginning and I have NOT jumped around other than between CLE and MM. He has learned but it seems like we're not moving forward as math is getting a tad more challenging and I really don't think he has mastered what he's learned. I could give many examples of why this is obvious to me but this post has gotten long enough already .... 

 

ANY counsel would be appreciated. I am *this close* to purchasing MUS for him and grabbing Beta and Gamma as I think he'd work fairly quickly through Beta but he NEEDS to plug holes and cement understanding of Place Value and addition/subtraction. I think MUS may turn on the light bulbs in his brain .... 

[Amy M]

I'm sorry, I don't think I have much advice for you since my kids are so little, but I did have the thought that one nice thing about MUS is that they don't put "numbers" or grade levels on their levels, so that even if you did go with Beta, it wouldn't be overt to your son that he was placing lower than he might like. So it might accomplish your goals with less angst on his part.

 

The other thought is that if you do try MUS, you should give it a fair try by starting with Beta to give him the foundational level he needs to understand the thinking, on a level that might not be so new to him, giving him an introduction to their style of thinking, while still feeling successful at the easier concepts, if that makes sense. Otherwise you might always feel if it failed, that it failed because you had started him in the wrong level. Also, if it doesn't work, it might be a double frustration to you if you had already purchased Gamma as well. Just my two cents, I don't really know whether MUS would help you, but I have used it on the Alpha level, and have tried a bit of MM, and of the two, I preferred MUS.

[JadenCalebMom]

My 8 year old went through alpha and beta this past year. He loves it and it makes sense and sticks. I would start with the beta because it is a different way of doing math and will give a strong foundation. He will probably move through it quickly, but that could be a confidence boost.

[DoppeltGemoppelt]

Sounds like the main problem your son has is place value. MUS teaches place value in alpha, but you can also find that video online, once you have the blocks. Start out by really solidifying place value, not addition and subtraction facts. Let him use the manipulatives for all his work, this will show you if he really understands place value. He will eventually not need them anymore. If you choose to purchase beta, he'll go through if very quickly after place value clicked for him. I believe MUS is a really great choice for a child like your son.

[Shellydon]

We use Math U See with Math Mammoth and love them both.  I think it could work very well and help him be successful.

[Stellalarella]

I use MUS to teach the concepts and then we go back to MM after finishing a MUS book.    I think that MUS made me a better math teacher.  I think that MM is better because the grade level books spiral the content.  I also think MM is better at teaching mental math.  

 

I really don't like the kiddos finishing all levels of multiplication in Gamma before going on to start their first division work in Delta.  However, I am a big fan of Alpha and Beta, then following those two with Math Mammoth to really learn some mental math skills.  Then do most of Gamma, a good chunk of Delta, then back to MM Grade 3 or Grade 4.  

 

Unfortunately, I have some kiddos in my house (not implying this is yours) who will get really upset about a math.  I don't think it is the math program, though.  I have been really trying to work this summer on gaining some greater teaching skills in myself to help them.  I have also proactively spent a lot of time helping them gain math facts proficiency with flash cards.  In the beginning, of course they cried and yelled over the flash cards.  But we learned, we took deep breaths, and they have made serious strides.  My belief is that when they have their facts down better it will free up more mental room for them to process story problems, easily do large digit addition, subtraction, multiplication.  Hopefully this will diminish negative math reactions as we move back to regular school next month.  :)  

 

In the end, the main reason I would switch a math program for a kid would be if the math program would help ME teach it better.  

 

MUS shipping is slow in my opinion, so don't delay in ordering.  I just had a not-great situation with them regarding the use of Fed Ex Smart Post.  I eventually did get my money refunded, but I will never use Fed Ex Smart Post again if I can help it.  Spent the extra $1.50 and use UPS.  

 

 

But really, if someone will let you borrow the books or you can get some used, that would be nice.  It could help a person avoid feeling guilty if she ends up switching between MUS and MM.  MUS is pricey, in my opinion.  Just my opinion.    

 

And yes, you will need the manipulatives.  :)  

 

[abrightmom]

We use Math U See with Math Mammoth and love them both.  I think it could work very well and help him be successful.

:coolgleamA:  Would you be willing to flesh this out for me? Any recommendations on where to start with this guy?

 

I use MUS to teach the concepts and then we go back to MM after finishing a MUS book.    I think that MUS made me a better math teacher.  I think that MM is better because the grade level books spiral the content.  I also think MM is better at teaching mental math.  

 

I really don't like the kiddos finishing all levels of multiplication in Gamma before going on to start their first division work in Delta.  However, I am a big fan of Alpha and Beta, then following those two with Math Mammoth to really learn some mental math skills.  Then do most of Gamma, a good chunk of Delta, then back to MM Grade 3 or Grade 4.  

 

Unfortunately, I have some kiddos in my house (not implying this is yours) who will get really upset about a math.  I don't think it is the math program, though.  I have been really trying to work this summer on gaining some greater teaching skills in myself to help them.  I have also proactively spent a lot of time helping them gain math facts proficiency with flash cards.  In the beginning, of course they cried and yelled over the flash cards.  But we learned, we took deep breaths, and they have made serious strides.  My belief is that when they have their facts down better it will free up more mental room for them to process story problems, easily do large digit addition, subtraction, multiplication.  Hopefully this will diminish negative math reactions as we move back to regular school next month.   :)

 

In the end, the main reason I would switch a math program for a kid would be if the math program would help ME teach it better.  

 

MUS shipping is slow in my opinion, so don't delay in ordering.  I just had a not-great situation with them regarding the use of Fed Ex Smart Post.  I eventually did get my money refunded, but I will never use Fed Ex Smart Post again if I can help it.  Spent the extra $1.50 and use UPS.  

 

 

But really, if someone will let you borrow the books or you can get some used, that would be nice.  It could help a person avoid feeling guilty if she ends up switching between MUS and MM.  MUS is pricey, in my opinion.  Just my opinion.    

 

And yes, you will need the manipulatives.   :)

Thanks for sharing this. I am chewing on it and mulling it over. It excites me that I could have a hybrid. I DO so love MM and think that ONE of these days his brain will mature enough to "get" mental math. Historically, despite his struggles, he has LOVED math. Watching his little flame die out is unpleasant and I want to avoid it. My desire is to fan that flame back into existence and keep it burning .... Advice to use UPS noted.  :coolgleamA:

[MerryAtHope]

I haven't used Math Mammoth, but some of my experience with other programs that were known for encouraging mental math were that they used more discovery-oriented methods.  Methods that left my son feeling stupid or even upset (because he felt such programs purposefully withheld information that could help a student be successful).  So you might consider whether part of the reason your son ends up in tears over MM (and yet doesn't want to give it up) is whether the approach itself is kind of a mismatch. 

 

MUS has been a great fit here, but I haven't used the younger levels (we started with pre-algebra, though I did pick up the Epsilon DVD to review MUS's teaching on fractions). So I while I grasp the concept of it being mastery-based and possibly doing more than a level per year if the student is ready, I don't have the experience of how that actually plays out for a student. Both of my kids have felt that it makes concepts very clear and easy to understand.

 

Anyway, hope you find what works well for your son! Merry :-)

[Alison in KY]

They are great to call for advice at MUS. I'd give that a try. Honestly, when my son was struggling we went all the way back to Alpha. I think he was 8 or 9 then. We moved quickly, but there were new concepts in there that he didn't know from previous programs. Also, it helped to ease math frustration when I relaxed and went for shorter lessons with me being by his side to teach and help...he's 14 and that still works! He just struggles with math retention and that's him...I always wanted a pill to cure him, but no such thing existed. I love MUS and the way it teaches.

[Holly]

I tried really hard to make Singapore work with my DD (we switched to MM for a semester when she hit a wall with SM).  I literally spent 2 years teaching her subtraction with regrouping.  Last year I finally admitted that SM wasn't working and we switched over to MUS...She went back to Gamma since she finally got subtraction.  MUS has been wonderful since I don't have to do much teaching...she almost always picks it up from the video.  It's gotten a bit harder towards the end of the book, but she's caught on (we're doing multiple digit multiplication).   The funny thing is that I've starting to see her use some adding and subtracting techniques from SM, but I'm still glad we switched.  She also likes that I let her skip some of the wb pages when she's done well on the first ones.  

 

I also switched DS at the same time (they both went through Gamma together) and I was worried that it wouldn't be meaty enough for him.  He's enjoying it just as much and they have completely different learning styles!  He'll be going back to Beta for 3rd and then moving on to Delta, hopefully by the 2nd semester.  I'm hoping to go quickly through Beta, skipping over what he already understands.

[Stellalarella]

:coolgleamA:  Would you be willing to flesh this out for me? Any recommendations on where to start with this guy?

 

Thanks for sharing this. I am chewing on it and mulling it over. It excites me that I could have a hybrid. I DO so love MM and think that ONE of these days his brain will mature enough to "get" mental math. Historically, despite his struggles, he has LOVED math. Watching his little flame die out is unpleasant and I want to avoid it. My desire is to fan that flame back into existence and keep it burning .... Advice to use UPS noted.  :coolgleamA:

 

 

The mental math sections on MM require that the kiddo really has her math facts down cold.  I love how MM teaches different strategies to add double digits in one's mind, but it's just too hard unless one has the facts totally memorized.  

 

MUS can help a person get better at knowing basic facts.  For instance, in one lesson (which has 6 parts A-F) you will learn one set of facts.  "Nine wants to be a 10"--and then the kid will spend all week and possibly into the next practicing adding 9.  But this is also why MUS is also seen as a really boring math program.  :)  (Just do a search on this forum for MUS and boring.  :) )

 

If it were me, (and actually, this is what I am doing now :) ) I would use MUS's strategic, hands-on plan for teaching addition, subtraction, multiplication and division facts.  All the while I would also be gently helping the kiddos gain total mastery with flashcards, incrementally working toward speed.  I would do all the MUS word problems...and then I would move back into Math Mammoth for learning deliberate mental math strategies, more story problems and reinforcement.  

 

One thing to consider is whether it would be a good idea to sit down with flashcards and find out what your child can do.  But before that, sit down and see what YOU can do with flashcards, so you have a baseline.  The kids thought it was pretty funny watching my husband and I time flashcards.  I beat him, by the way.  :)  If you really know your facts, you can do all 100 addition facts in less than 60 seconds.  Now, I will say that I was pretty happy when my 10yo got 50 under 1 minute.  Our goal for the summer is for her to be able to do all 100 in 2 minutes.  She's really, really close.  I'm very happy about this since this is the child who would cry all through second grade over problems like 4 + 1.  

 

In the beginning, I don't recommend having them write down answers on a worksheet for timing unless the child is a really fast writer.  Also, there is a solidly based online math facts program with a simple user interface called xtramath.  It's free.  But here's the deal--in order to answer the facts within the time, the kid needs to have good keyboarding skills on a number pad (unless you have an ipad and the child can just touch the screen.)  So, just try the flashcards orally.

 

Lehigh University has a great PDF download on an effective way to work on math flash cards, just 10 at a time.  :)  They advise setting up a system so that a kid is practicing 7 facts that they know well along with 3 that are challenging.  

 

If you're wondering why I seem so excited about math facts, it's because I've been doing quite a bit of reading this summer about teaching and learning.  I've read "Practice Perfect," "Why Kids Don't LIke School," and I am working through "Teach LIke a Champion."  Research and practical experience all point to the idea that our thinking process works better when we don't have to think, oddly enough.   In math, this means that my kids who are struggling and upset need to go back and get their math facts down cold.  They also need lots of practice doing multi-digit computations over and over again to gain proficiency.  They need story problems presented systematically so that they can learn to see the underlying structure of the problem.  

[abrightmom]

This is an encouraging thread .... 

 

We have watched all of the sample videos. Maybe it's just me but I LOVE his teaching style and *seeing* the concepts presented with manipulatives is immensely helpful to this Mom. I want to buy all of the levels so I can watch the DVDs. Is this insane? 

 

I will call them but would love some feedback on what to purchase. I do think I want to buy Alpha, Beta, and Gamma at a minimum to start. But I truly want all of the videos for myself ....  :coolgleamA:

 

I worked through the Beta test for my son. Subtraction is his nemesis. He did absolutely fine with the addition and all of the word problems. Subtraction kills him .... 

[Lori D.]

:grouphug:  Totally understand! I was in your shoes with our younger DS who is a highly visual-spatial learner with some mild LDs in some of the language arts areas and with the less visual/more abstract topics of math.

 

We finally found MUS for him starting in 5th grade. At this point DS was at least a year behind the usual scope and sequence, largely because he was still struggling with multiplication and division of larger numbers. We used the Original ("Classic") MUS, level "intermediate" which covered grade 4, 5, 6 topics. We did have to skip a few topics towards the end, as it was getting a just a little beyond him, but overall it was a great way to introduce DS to the MUS way of doing things.

 

Instead of the Beta and Gamma levels, perhaps you might want to consider buying used the Original ("Classic") level of Foundations. Ebay has the VHS tapes and teacher book and MUS has the student workbook. This option may require you to also buy or borrow an old VHS machine to plug into your TV if you don't have one.

 

This option would allow you to move very quickly through most of the program, but also allowing you to slow down for a topic that DS is less sure about. This will also easily allow you to continue to use Math Mammoth as a great supplement for seeing math from a different point of view and encouraging math connections and math thinking.

 

OR, if you do go with Beta, I'd like to encourage you that your DS will likely move quickly and confidently through it. 

Continuing our own story: the following year (grade 6), DS did both MUS Delta and Epsilon levels, AND we supplemented with parts of Singapore Primary (which is not too different from Math Mammoth). DS was able to fly through Delta at the rate of about 3-4 lessons per week -- he completed Delta in 9 weeks. We would watch the lesson together, and then I'd have him do EITHER the A or the B page, AND then TWO of either the C, D or E pages (whichever had the review material I thought he would best benefit from). DS did Epsilon at a rate of about 2 lessons/week:

day 1 = watch first lesson, do pages A and C

day 2 = do pages B and D

day 3 = watch second lesson, do pages A and C

day 4 = do pages B and D

day 5 = do the two E pages from both lessons

 

Where DS needed it, we did slow down several lessons to take a full week per lesson. DS finished Epsilon in about 18 weeks. That gave us a full 9 weeks to work through a skim review of Singapore 4A/B.

 

You can use Math Mammoth as a supplement daily -- just don't go longer than 15 minutes later in the day, so you don't burn our your DS on math. Or, work on MUS on Mon-Thurs, and on Fridays, spend your full math time just on MM.

 

Hope that helps, seeing that there are many ways to do it, and that your son will quickly catch up. :) Hoping MUS is what will really click for your DS, and that you can continue to supplement with MM! BEST of luck, whatever you decide to do! Warmly, Lori D.

 

[Pen]

We have used a number of things including both MM and MUS.  

 

We started MUS with Gamma and did two levels in one year.  My ds's retention was much better with MUS, though he found it boring.   If subtracting is a problem even with one digit, I would think you would want alpha.  If it is solid at one digit, but a problem with 2 or more, then I would think you would want Beta.  In general, go however fast he can go for mastery.   

 

However, the ends of the levels are difficult, and I found that my ds could easily to the early parts of Delta (division) before he was ready to master the longest and toughest of the multiplication in Gamma.

 

I found MUS easy to accelerate by doing however many pages seemed to be needed to "get" a skill, and then move along.  I in some ways regret leaving it for MM, which I think is an excellent program, but I don't think what he learned during MM is as solid, OTOH I don't really want to go back and redo those parts--similar to your dilemma now.  So what program is "best" really depends on the child, I think.

[aelgraham]

This thread is encouraging b/c I just ordered MUS alpha for my struggling student, who just turned 8. It's great to hear all the positive posts about it.

 

We started the year with Saxon, switched to Singapore, and hit the wall of frustration. I am excited to try MUS, and just like the OP, I wasn't sure if I should backtrack all the way to alpha. But what I've learned over the years is that any time you switch curriculum, especially math, you really need to rewind and learn how the program works. I like that with MUS you can go as quickly or slow as needed. 

 

 

[abrightmom]

So, I went back to the MUS site today to check pricing. 

 

:svengo:

 

I have to really ponder this one as I think my guy needs bits and pieces of Alpha and Beta before hitting his sweet spot in Gamma. I do have two more kids coming up the ranks but still . . . 

[kiwik]

MM teaches mental maths pretty explicitly from what I have seen. What does he hate so much about CLE since it seemed to work. How do you feel about maths?

 

I don't home school though I would like to but I do sometimes wonder with some maths posts. I simply don't remember anyone fussing, throwing things or crying when we did maths at school. Surely a reasonable percentage of the class must have hated it. Would they have behaved differently if it had been their mother teaching?

[Stellalarella]

So, I went back to the MUS site today to check pricing. 

 

:svengo:

 

I have to really ponder this one as I think my guy needs bits and pieces of Alpha and Beta before hitting his sweet spot in Gamma. I do have two more kids coming up the ranks but still . . . 

 

 

Yeah.  That's what I'm saying.  MUS isn't priced to be an add-on.    And what really zings is the fact that a kid doesn't need every single page of that $30 workbook set.  

 

Often we have had kids write answers on a piece of notebook paper rather than use the workbooks.  That is possibly possible with Alpha, depending on the how good the kid is at writing.  My youngest son was zooming in math ahead of his age, so he needed to write down the answers in the actual workbook.  By the time a kid gets to Beta, they should be able to write answers on a separate piece of notebook paper.  With Gamma, you again find that it is much easier to have the kids write answers in the book, at least as far as the second half is concerned.  We have reused books by writing 8s over all the pencil marks and then erasing.  TIme consuming, yes, but still doesn't take as long as MUS shipping.  Just saying.  

[Stellalarella]

I don't home school though I would like to but I do sometimes wonder with some maths posts. I simply don't remember anyone fussing, throwing things or crying when we did maths at school. Surely a reasonable percentage of the class must have hated it. Would they have behaved differently if it had been their mother teaching?

:)

 

I can't speak for others, but I will say there are some additional challenges in teaching my own children.  

[Lori D.]

So, I went back to the MUS site today to check pricing. 

 

:svengo:

 

 

See if you can find and purchase used teacher book/DVD sets. Then you only have to purchase the student book new at full price. :) And MUS is pretty easy to resell when you're done. Maybe think of it as you'll re-coop some of your investment later on? :)

 

Side note: And for me, after 4 years of struggling to find a math that worked, price no longer was an issue -- all I could think was, "Hallelujah! I'll pay any amount to get what works for this student and halts the math melt-downs!"  :laugh:

 

BEST of luck, whatever you decide! Warmly, Lori D.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

Research and practical experience all point to the idea that our thinking process works better when we don't have to think, oddly enough.   In math, this means that my kids who are struggling and upset need to go back and get their math facts down cold.  They also need lots of practice doing multi-digit computations over and over again to gain proficiency.  They need story problems presented systematically so that they can learn to see the underlying structure of the problem.  

 

This is where we are at with my 9yo daughter. She, like her mother before her, really hit a wall once division was introduced into the mix with MM. We are now taking some time to really start to go over the multiplication facts. I'm including my 8yo, too, who uses MUS. We are literally going to be repeating "3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18..." over and over a couple times a day until we know them forwards and backwards. (The author of MM has a video on her site about multiplication facts.) 

 

 

:grouphug:  Totally understand! I was in your shoes with our younger DS who is a highly visual-spatial learner with some mild LDs in some of the language arts areas and with the less visual/more abstract topics of math.

 

We finally found MUS for him starting in 5th grade. At this point DS was at least a year behind the usual scope and sequence, largely because he was still struggling with multiplication and division of larger numbers. We used the Original ("Classic") MUS, level "intermediate" which covered grade 4, 5, 6 topics. We did have to skip a few topics towards the end, as it was getting a just a little beyond him, but overall it was a great way to introduce DS to the MUS way of doing things.

 

Instead of the Beta and Gamma levels, perhaps you might want to consider buying used the Original ("Classic") level of Foundations. Ebay has the VHS tapes and teacher book and MUS has the student workbook. This option may require you to also buy or borrow an old VHS machine to plug into your TV if you don't have one.

 

This option would allow you to move very quickly through most of the program, but also allowing you to slow down for a topic that DS is less sure about. This will also easily allow you to continue to use Math Mammoth as a great supplement for seeing math from a different point of view and encouraging math connections and math thinking.

 

OR, if you do go with Beta, I'd like to encourage you that your DS will likely move quickly and confidently through it. 

Continuing our own story: the following year (grade 6), DS did both MUS Delta and Epsilon levels, AND we supplemented with parts of Singapore Primary (which is not too different from Math Mammoth). DS was able to fly through Delta at the rate of about 3-4 lessons per week -- he completed Delta in 9 weeks. We would watch the lesson together, and then I'd have him do EITHER the A or the B page, AND then TWO of either the C, D or E pages (whichever had the review material I thought he would best benefit from). DS did Epsilon at a rate of about 2 lessons/week:

day 1 = watch first lesson, do pages A and C

day 2 = do pages B and D

day 3 = watch second lesson, do pages A and C

day 4 = do pages B and D

day 5 = do the two E pages from both lessons

 

Where DS needed it, we did slow down several lessons to take a full week per lesson. DS finished Epsilon in about 18 weeks. That gave us a full 9 weeks to work through a skim review of Singapore 4A/B.

 

You can use Math Mammoth as a supplement daily -- just don't go longer than 15 minutes later in the day, so you don't burn our your DS on math. Or, work on MUS on Mon-Thurs, and on Fridays, spend your full math time just on MM.

 

Hope that helps, seeing that there are many ways to do it, and that your son will quickly catch up. :) Hoping MUS is what will really click for your DS, and that you can continue to supplement with MM! BEST of luck, whatever you decide to do! Warmly, Lori D.

 

 

Do you think it is also possible to keep with MM, which my 9yo usually thrives with, but then supplement Delta and/or Gamma to solidify the facts a little better? She has never really needed manipulatives to learn things in the past, but I wonder if maybe, just maybe, this would be a good supplement for her. How do you think that would look? 

 

To the OP: I have one child who uses each. MUS is a perfect fit for my 8yo. She's the type of learner who always likes to draw or color when being taught, but then knows exactly what's going on. If you make her "pay attention," she totally doesn't get anything out of what you're telling her. She was also a wiggler as a toddler whenever it was time to sit and look at books. She doesn't always need the blocks to do her work, but when she's stuck on a subtraction problem, she pulls them out and gets the answers right away. I usually don't have to interact with her much, but just earlier today she was showing me the "proper" way to do the blocks for a subtraction problem, and I could totally see the answer in front of me. I was always a struggler in math, and still have to pause when asked to figure something out without a calculator. However, being a visual person, I could see how MUS really gives you a different approach to math, not just with having something you can touch and manipulate to arrive at an answer, but with something you could picture in your mind when doing the same problem later on. 

 

Good luck!

[abrightmom]

MM teaches mental maths pretty explicitly from what I have seen. What does he hate so much about CLE since it seemed to work. How do you feel about maths?

 

I don't home school though I would like to but I do sometimes wonder with some maths posts. I simply don't remember anyone fussing, throwing things or crying when we did maths at school. Surely a reasonable percentage of the class must have hated it. Would they have behaved differently if it had been their mother teaching?

Not sure about the CLE loathing and I've made him use it despite his complaints. HOWEVER, I could write a novella detailing the reasons the dude seems to be "missing out" using MM or CLE. I really really think he needs the manipulative component of MUS and then we can skip back over and work in CLE or MM if we want to.  :coolgleamA:

 

I cried a lot in school and it was always over math. Frankly, I did NOT understand a lot of it and at some point was left behind. If I had been homeschooled and was able to study at MY pace and with the hands on stuff I needed and with the WHYS spelled out for me I am SURE I would've been a much more successful and less frustrated math student. Word problems terrified me and I floundered for years. 

 

One other thing about the school teaching vs the Mom.... I believe that often we push kids through in school because we have no choice. Keep up or sink. It's super easy to fall back on the algorithms and just filling in the blank and getting the right answer because there isn't TIME to slow down and truly learn why and how. Too much pressure to "keep up" and kids fall through the cracks and their understanding in math is damaged. I am definitely a case in point and have a lot of compassion for my son. 

[abrightmom]

Yeah.  That's what I'm saying.  MUS isn't priced to be an add-on.    And what really zings is the fact that a kid doesn't need every single page of that $30 workbook set.  

 

Often we have had kids write answers on a piece of notebook paper rather than use the workbooks.  That is possibly possible with Alpha, depending on the how good the kid is at writing.  My youngest son was zooming in math ahead of his age, so he needed to write down the answers in the actual workbook.  By the time a kid gets to Beta, they should be able to write answers on a separate piece of notebook paper.  With Gamma, you again find that it is much easier to have the kids write answers in the book, at least as far as the second half is concerned.  We have reused books by writing 8s over all the pencil marks and then erasing.  TIme consuming, yes, but still doesn't take as long as MUS shipping.  Just saying.  

Yes, it zings!  :coolgleamA:

 

I want to purchase the blocks and Alpha, Beta, and Gamma in one order. Will I be frustrated if I only order one set of blocks? And, what about the storage case? I do like things organized and easy for the kids to use without me stressing about jamming them into an odd shaped box. 

 

Anything else necessary at this stage? I don't need the skip counting songs.

[Stellalarella]

Yes, it zings!  :coolgleamA:

 

I want to purchase the blocks and Alpha, Beta, and Gamma in one order. Will I be frustrated if I only order one set of blocks? And, what about the storage case? I do like things organized and easy for the kids to use without me stressing about jamming them into an odd shaped box. 

 

Anything else necessary at this stage? I don't need the skip counting songs.

 

One set will do.  I purchased the previous set they offered, which is smaller than the one they offer now.  I personally liked how they are arranged in the come-with cardboard box.  In my box, the tens sit on top of the hundreds.  Also, the 1-9 unit blocks sit on top of hundreds.  The result is that every time a kid puts the blocks away correctly, she is matching up a 1 with a 9, a 2 with an 8, a 3 with a 7.  You get the point.  Anyway, we have been using this cardboard box of MUS blocks for 3+ years now and it is doing fine.  It is much more compact than the wooden storage unit, and of course it has a lid.  Of course I want the beautiful wooden box and of course I want the two sets of blocks for the 4 times each year that we need it, but we have managed to do without 2 sets thus far.  I only have 1 more kid to get through Alpha, so I can hardly justify it now.  

 

You need to know, as well, that though the price would indicate differently, these DVD videos are not masterworks of videography.  Serviceable is a good term.  I do not believe the DVDs are updated for this latest Common Core aligned edition they began selling earlier this year.  

 

Alpha made me a better teacher.  Yes, I've done calculus and statistics, but I never understood the number system so well until Mr. Steve showed me.  But you know, if I could perform upper level maths and still remember enough to help my son through algebra 1, it just goes to show you how far 1980s algorithm driven math instruction will take a gal....   :)  I am so glad to understand the conceptual math better now.  

[Alison in KY]

I think you could do the alpha and beta on a side notebook and save those student books for the next child. Just don't expect a magic cure. Go over it with them and then have him teach it back to you.

[Holly]

So, I went back to the MUS site today to check pricing. 

 

:svengo:

 

I have to really ponder this one as I think my guy needs bits and pieces of Alpha and Beta before hitting his sweet spot in Gamma. I do have two more kids coming up the ranks but still . . . 

 

The price is killing me too!  I'm hoping to switch all of my DC to MUS this year.  The minimum I need to start the year is Alpha, Beta, and Delta.  I'd love to pick up Epsilon-Zeta as well, but I'll have to wait.  Luckily I already have the blocks and picked up Delta-Zeta TMs and DVDs used.  It's still going to cost a few hundred dollars to pick up the rest...And their shipping charges are very high!  Most of our budget this year is going towards math. 

 

Yes, it zings!  :coolgleamA:

 

I want to purchase the blocks and Alpha, Beta, and Gamma in one order. Will I be frustrated if I only order one set of blocks? And, what about the storage case? I do like things organized and easy for the kids to use without me stressing about jamming them into an odd shaped box. 

 

Anything else necessary at this stage? I don't need the skip counting songs.

 

I have one set of blocks that I used with 2 DC this year.  It worked out fine.  For storage, many moms use fishing tackle boxes (with dividers).  Much less expensive!  We've just been using the cardboard box they come in.  It takes a few minutes to put them away, but I know right away if any are missing.

[Holly]

I think you could do the alpha and beta on a side notebook and save those student books for the next child. Just don't expect a magic cure. Go over it with them and then have him teach it back to you.

 

I know this isn't always "PC", but we use page protectors and dry erase markers.  This way I don't feel bad about skipping over any wb pages and am not spending $30 per student per year.  I use their grade record sheet to keep track of how many they got right and which worksheets they did.

[teachingmy3]

I haven't read all the posts, so I apologize if this has been stated.

 

1. With MUS, don't try too hard to correlate the title with a specific grade level. Obviously, if you do the ideal thing and start at kinder and do primer and then do 1 level per grade level, then you could match up to a grade level. However, I think it is better to look at them as topics. As one lady stated, her kid finished a whole "year" in just a few months. I think it helps that there isn't a big number on the front of the book to indicate a grade level. That way my kids don't know if they're doing a particular grade level!

 

2. Also, I wanted to encourage you to take a look at the clearance section. You can get the 2009 editions for cheaper. Buy the student book there and find a used copy of the instruction pack. Check the classifieds on here!
I was on the TOS Review Crew and we reviewed the new MUS. MUS sent us the new updated version to review. It was clear that the new edition only contains a few extra pages for each lesson...and that was so they could be in line with Common Core Standards.

 

[Stellalarella]

Please be aware what Fed Ex Smart Post is--because it's not good when you have a problem and need to track it.  

 

I had to return a package and when I did, I found out that Fed Ex is only the originating shipper.  The first tracking number you will see is for Fed Ex.  Fed Ex THEN sends it to USPS and it gets a USPS tracking number.  When I refused the package, I watched my post carrier scan it back into his system.  The package didn't make it back into the Fed Ex system, even after 3 weeks.  So,  I didn't get the refund (and we aren't talking about small potatoes here, either) until I called and called.  

 

My order was double posted online--so by the time MUS realized that two orders had been sent out, they couldn't recall the order through Fed Ex Smart Post like they could have with UPS.  

 

If you talk to a MUS customer support person they will recommend spending a little more and going with UPS.  After this experience, I agree. 

 

I think MUS has officially reached the critical mass for price point.  Not one more $, I tell you.  It's also concerning that they haven't moved to online video or PDF downloads.  I have been spoiled by Peace Hill Press and Math Mammoth--love those PDF workbooks.  Love those online videos from Lively Latin.  Really, MUS should be an iPad curriculum with PDF optional print.  

 

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

Please be aware what Fed Ex Smart Post is--because it's not good when you have a problem and need to track it.  

 

I had to return a package and when I did, I found out that Fed Ex is only the originating shipper.  The first tracking number you will see is for Fed Ex.  Fed Ex THEN sends it to USPS and it gets a USPS tracking number.  When I refused the package, I watched my post carrier scan it back into his system.  The package didn't make it back into the Fed Ex system, even after 3 weeks.  So,  I didn't get the refund (and we aren't talking about small potatoes here, either) until I called and called.  

 

My order was double posted online--so by the time MUS realized that two orders had been sent out, they couldn't recall the order through Fed Ex Smart Post like they could have with UPS.  

 

If you talk to a MUS customer support person they will recommend spending a little more and going with UPS.  After this experience, I agree. 

 

I think MUS has officially reached the critical mass for price point.  Not one more $, I tell you.  It's also concerning that they haven't moved to online video or PDF downloads.  I have been spoiled by Peace Hill Press and Math Mammoth--love those PDF workbooks.  Love those online videos from Lively Latin.  Really, MUS should be an iPad curriculum with PDF optional print.  

 

Someone gave me their "extra" student book for Beta last year, and only a few pages here and there were missing, including all six pages for lesson 4. I called them and asked if they would be willing to just send me a couple pages from lesson 4, and they said "no." I felt like saying, "Do you really think saying 'no' is going to make me purchase an entire book for one lesson?" I, too, am spoiled by being able to use eBooks for each child.