I feel like I'll never place him in the right math.

[Runningmom80]

I DO the placement tests. BUT. Everytime, it seems like we are coasting through. The only thing that has challenged ds in the past has been BA, and it was "too hard."

 

I'm just frustrated trying to buy anything, it all feels like a waste of money.

 

I guess I'm just venting. I know I need to just keep buying what he places at, and go through it at his pace. I'd just like a few months of a good fit. Lol. Hopefully he will slow down soon. We start SM 3A in tha fall, it seems like a lot of kids slow down in this level. Or maybe I'm making that up to make myself feel better.

[EKS]

We had the same problem when my son was your son's age.  I finally decided on a solid program that I liked (Singapore) and ran through it until things got more challenging. 

 

Specifically, we messed around with different programs in K and then in 1st settled into Singapore 2A.  He finished 4B at the end of 2nd grade, did 5A/B at the beginning of 3rd, and then needed a change to prealgebra after that.  He ended up in Algebra I at a b&m school in 5th, and now, going into 6th, he is doing geometry.  From here on out I anticipate that he continue at a pace of about 1-1.5 courses per year.

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

Are you using the IP books? Zaccaro's "Challenge Math" series is good as well.

 

Prufrock Press has some good math supplements. DS particularly likes the "Math Analogies" and "Balance Benders" series.

 

He might enjoy practicing for math contests. Continental Math League starts at the 2nd grade level and Math Kangaroo has a 1st grade test.

[Runningmom80]

That's encouraging to hear!

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, it wasn't until last year, when DD finally got to pre-algebra/algebra that she took a year for a math curriculum that was supposed to take a year (and even then, we were doing multiple programs at once). I don't think it was, for her, so much that I hadn't placed her correctly-in all cases, we started where she needed to be at the time. It was that she simply needed to work and compact and compress to get up to content that was the right level.

 

I will say that in 20/20 hindsight, I wish I'd gone with Math Mammoth over Singapore-it simply would have been less painful financially. SM was a great program for DD in many ways, but it definitely wasn't a cheap choice given the pace at which she was going!

 

 

[Runningmom80]

Are you using the IP books? Zaccaro's "Challenge Math" series is good as well.

 

Prufrock Press has some good math supplements. DS particularly likes the "Math Analogies" and "Balance Benders" series.

 

He might enjoy practicing for math contests. Continental Math League starts at the 2nd grade level and Math Kangaroo has a 1st grade test.

We use CWP. I bout the IP book, but it all seemed like too much between the text, WB, CWP and IP.

 

The math competition may just be something he will get excited about, thanks for mentioning it!

[Runningmom80]

FWIW, it wasn't until last year, when DD finally got to pre-algebra/algebra that she took a year for a math curriculum that was supposed to take a year (and even then, we were doing multiple programs at once). I don't think it was, for her, so much that I hadn't placed her correctly-in all cases, we started where she needed to be at the time. It was that she simply needed to work and compact and compress to get up to content that was the right level.

 

I will say that in 20/20 hindsight, I wish I'd gone with Math Mammoth over Singapore-it simply would have been less painful financially. SM was a great program for DD in many ways, but it definitely wasn't a cheap choice given the pace at which she was going!

 

We tried Math Mammoth, but he hated it. Tears and fights. So I switched back to Singapore. You're not kidding though, the money is the most frustrating part.

[Dmmetler]

I don't think DD would have liked MM either-SM had the cute, colorful pictures that she loves (this is the kid who, after completing two levels of Cambridge Latin, got excited about Song School Latin 2 coming out and asked me to get it for her, and is happily working her way through it this summer. She's not going to learn anything new from it-but, oh, well).

 

On competitions, the Mathnasium Trimathlon is coming up in the Fall, and it officially starts at 3rd grade, but younger kids can participate. It's a good first competition because it's a) fairly easy and b) everyone gets a treat bag just for showing up. Math Kangaroo is much harder-but again, everyone gets a T-shirt and a gift for coming (a little stuffed kangaroo for elementary this year-I'm guessing that's standard), and it's fun to be part of the group.

 

Continental Math league you register and can do at home or with a team-as a homeschooler, the child automatically gets a medal at the "School level" for participating, as well as being eligible for national awards as individuals. If you have a team, the team gets medals for the top 3 scorers and certificates for the next 3 (only 6 scores are entered for a team), plus are eligible for team and individual awards. It's more difficult than Mathnasium, IMO, less difficult than Math Kangaroo (of course, that could be because Math Kangaroo had a lot of visual problems, and that's where DD is weak, while CML has more numerical problem solving/logic, and she's stronger in those parts of math).

 

The American Math Challenge (and other regional ones) will be coming up online this fall through the Mathletics folks, and the World Math Games will be part of the World Education Games in the Spring. Both are easier math-wise than any of the others (AMC is harder than WMG because it covers K-6, while WMG is divided into age groups), but because it's so speed dependent, is the hardest to place in unless you're just lightning fast on the numeric keypad (and have reliable, fast internet. It's a good one to set a goal and focus on meeting that goal as opposed to winning or placing.

 

 

[StephanieZ]

SM shouldn't be expensive. It wasn't expensive for us. 

 

All you need is Text + WkBk. The Texts are reusable and salable. So, the consumable workbooks run about $30/yr IIRC. 

 

The IPs (and all the other stuff) are optional and really only useful IMNSHO if your child needs extra practice before moving on. I didn't find the IPs actually more challenging than the most challenging problems in the text/wkbk. I just found them MORE of the more challenging ones. So, if the most challenging problems are too challenging in the WkBk, or the kid needs more polish before moving ahead with the next level, then IP is great. If the kid is flying through everything (including the challenging problems in the wkbk) pretty easily, just let them fly.

 

My kids averaged 3 months or so per text/wkbk level, so they tended to go through about 1.5 years of SM each calendar year (schooling about 40 wks/yr with no breaks longer than a month.) We added in an IP book once or twice per kid in between levels for review/solidification of concepts as needed. Probably averaged 20 min/day on SM. All finished SM by age 8 or 9, so in about 4 school years. And, that was with me trying to slow them down, also doing Miquon (anoth 15-20 min/day) and throwing in IPs a couple times.

 

I assure you they got the maximum possible from SM. There was little/no frustration for anyone. It took very little time and very little money. 

 

I think the supplemental programs and ancillary books have made SM much more complicated than it was when we all fell in love with it 10 years ago. All this for very little benefit to most students IMNSHO, much profit to the book sellers, and much frustration and expense to parents, and likely wasted time for many kids. I am sure there are those who need and appreciate all that extra support, but I think accelerated learners with mathy parent/teachers are probably done a disservice by all that extra stuff.

 

Just my NSHO. LOL

 

(I did SM and Miquon all the way through three times, FWIW, and all kids have excelled in subsequent math, no problems.)

[Crimson Wife]

We use CWP. I bout the IP book, but it all seemed like too much between the text, WB, CWP and IP.

With a bright kid, I would dump the regular workbook and just do the textbook, CWP, and IP. What my kids do in PM is the textbook lessons together with me, the textbook practices as independent work, and then the corresponding CWP & IP units (independently unless they get stuck on a problem). The end-of-chapter reviews in the textbook I save for 1 semester behind.

[Crimson Wife]

I didn't find the IPs actually more challenging than the most challenging problems in the text/wkbk. I just found them MORE of the more challenging ones. So, if the most challenging problems are too challenging in the WkBk, or the kid needs more polish before moving ahead with the next level, then IP is great. If the kid is flying through everything (including the challenging problems in the wkbk) pretty easily, just let them fly.

I disagree. The "take the challenge" sections in the IP's are harder than anything in the textbooks. I don't think bright kids are done any favors in the long run by being allowed to zoom through elementary math at a relatively superficial level. It's not a race to see who can reach algebra the earliest.

[Runningmom80]

I don't think DD would have liked MM either-SM had the cute, colorful pictures that she loves (this is the kid who, after completing two levels of Cambridge Latin, got excited about Song School Latin 2 coming out and asked me to get it for her, and is happily working her way through it this summer. She's not going to learn anything new from it-but, oh, well).

 

On competitions, the Mathnasium Trimathlon is coming up in the Fall, and it officially starts at 3rd grade, but younger kids can participate. It's a good first competition because it's a) fairly easy and b) everyone gets a treat bag just for showing up. Math Kangaroo is much harder-but again, everyone gets a T-shirt and a gift for coming (a little stuffed kangaroo for elementary this year-I'm guessing that's standard), and it's fun to be part of the group.

 

Continental Math league you register and can do at home or with a team-as a homeschooler, the child automatically gets a medal at the "School level" for participating, as well as being eligible for national awards as individuals. If you have a team, the team gets medals for the top 3 scorers and certificates for the next 3 (only 6 scores are entered for a team), plus are eligible for team and individual awards. It's more difficult than Mathnasium, IMO, less difficult than Math Kangaroo (of course, that could be because Math Kangaroo had a lot of visual problems, and that's where DD is weak, while CML has more numerical problem solving/logic, and she's stronger in those parts of math).

 

The American Math Challenge (and other regional ones) will be coming up online this fall through the Mathletics folks, and the World Math Games will be part of the World Education Games in the Spring. Both are easier math-wise than any of the others (AMC is harder than WMG because it covers K-6, while WMG is divided into age groups), but because it's so speed dependent, is the hardest to place in unless you're just lightning fast on the numeric keypad (and have reliable, fast internet. It's a good one to set a goal and focus on meeting that goal as opposed to winning or placing.

 

Thank you! Im going to look not these.

[StephanieZ]

I disagree. The "take the challenge" sections in the IP's are harder than anything in the textbooks. I don't think bright kids are done any favors in the long run by being allowed to zoom through elementary math at a relatively superficial level. It's not a race to see who can reach algebra the earliest.

 

Well, my 10yo mastered AoPS preA and is heading into AoPS Alg confidently, my 14 yo mastered AoPS Alg 1, C&P, & Geom and is heading into Alg 2, and my 16 yo has made A+s (blues) through AoPS preCalc (half way through so far), and is heading into AoPS Calc this fall. 

 

Dd16 is considering pure math or engineering for a major. All three kids still love math. They can all apply it in all areas of study.

 

Each child "maxed out" the math portions of state standardized grade level testing this spring.

 

I believe their success proves that their preparation was more than sufficient. For them, the IP books never felt particularly challenging. Perhaps it was because it ALL came fairly easily to them, so maybe we just didn't notice the incremental challenge difference between the sections of IP and the sections of the WkBk. If they were working hard, maybe we'd have noticed. As it was, when they went through the IP books (just following completing a particular level of PM, most often around levels 4 and 6), the time spent doing IP was always easy peasey, breezy. Since they'd learned the materials in the Txt/WkBk, going through it at the IP level was NEVER challenging At. All. They'd whip through it, with little to no help from me the entire level. That experience (times three kids) is what I base my judgment on. 

 

So, I guess our personal experience is that, indeed, allowing the child to go at their own pace through a rigorous elementary program more than prepares them for future math success.

 

I think it would have wasted their time, my time, and a lot of passion to have banged their head against the wall at each level with more and more of the same. 

 

IMNSHO, it is important to keep math challenging, and moving forward is a great way to do that. 

 

YMMV. Every parent and child is unique. For *us*, I know that any more products/books/time/$ on intensifying SM would have been a big waste of resources.

[Runningmom80]

I've wondered about buying less books, I dropped the IP initially because it was overkill, but using that instead of the WB is an idea. I personally am not mathy, so I figured I needed the HIG. I do like the lessons, but most of the time so far, he hasn't really needed them since we went through number bonds.

 

 

I'm going to ponder this a while.

[Runningmom80]

With a bright kid, I would dump the regular workbook and just do the textbook, CWP, and IP. What my kids do in PM is the textbook lessons together with me, the textbook practices as independent work, and then the corresponding CWP & IP units (independently unless they get stuck on a problem). The end-of-chapter reviews in the textbook I save for 1 semester behind.

 

 

 

I think I'm going to do this.  I don't even know that he needs the text book at this point, but since it's not consumable, I'll just keep getting it.

[StephanieZ]

I think I'm going to do this.  I don't even know that he needs the text book at this point, but since it's not consumable, I'll just keep getting it.

*YOU* need the text book. It is very important to make sure you are teaching the lessons "the Singapore way." For an able student who is naturally mathy or who has picked up a lot of arithmetic skills in other ways, it is very easy to allow the child to do many of the exercises however they wish. This will get you in deep doo doo when later work depends on techniques developed earlier in the program. Make sure to have the child do the exercises the way they are taught. 

[Runningmom80]

I was still going to get the HIG. I need the hand holding for sure.

[Alte Veste Academy]

With a bright kid, I would dump the regular workbook and just do the textbook, CWP, and IP. What my kids do in PM is the textbook lessons together with me, the textbook practices as independent work, and then the corresponding CWP & IP units (independently unless they get stuck on a problem). The end-of-chapter reviews in the textbook I save for 1 semester behind.

I disagree. The "take the challenge" sections in the IP's are harder than anything in the textbooks. I don't think bright kids are done any favors in the long run by being allowed to zoom through elementary math at a relatively superficial level. It's not a race to see who can reach algebra the earliest.

 

I agree with this, generally speaking.

 

I agree that even the IP can be easy for some kids, but they certainly are not less challenging than the WB. In DS10's case, the IP books were also simple, but not equally so. I did the TB/IP/CWP with him, ditching the WB after a certain point because it was so ridiculously pointless as to frustrate and distract him. At least the IP, with its greater number of more complex and just plain interesting questions, kept his attention/interest better than the WB did. I mean, if he was going to race through the material, I preferred that he race through the higher level material, not the basic material.

 

For my DD and DS7, I'm tending toward the same, using the TB/IP/CWP. They are more challenged by the IP, while they were whipping through the WB. If they're whipping through the books, they are almost pointless, and that's where I think CW's second post is particularly helpful. If a kid isn't challenged by the IP or the WB? Well, get moving forward, sure. But if a kid isn't challenged by the WB and gets sped along before even finding out if the IP for that level is a challenge? Well, I personally think that is a mistake.

 

[Dana]

I teach math at the cc.

I was stumped for a while today with a percent problem from iExcel. (Replaced by Process Skills books.) :)

I have found the extra books (IP, CWP, iExcel) to be significantly more difficult than the text problems which are tougher than the workbook problems.

 

I know the more difficult CWP problems have had my son work while I think he's always been able to do the text word problems without writing anything down. I'm very pleased with how solid Singapore is and how powerful the bar models are.

 

If your kids don't need the extra practice, that's great. I have used CWP on occasion to show my son how he solved the problem with a bar model, but I can use algebra to solve the same problem...and hey...we did the exact same steps, but the power of algebra is we have this language we can use to communicate (and later solve more complicated problems). Son has liked looking at my calculus texts and max/min and related rates problems :). I love that because of his early experiences, he can look at these pages of word problems and say "Cool!"

[Arcadia]

I've wondered about buying less books, I dropped the IP initially because it was overkill, but using that instead of the WB is an idea.

I drop IP and CWP after SM3 as my kids were still too fast at those and I could not justify the cost. I substituted with past year math contest problems on whatever topics they were on. They wrote in the textbooks so each had their own sets.

[boscopup]

I don't think Singapore TB/WB is going through elementary math at a "superficial level".

 

I do think the "Take the Challenge" sections of IP and CWP are harder than anything in the workbook or textbook, but I don't think they necessarily teach anything deeper either. It's certainly not like AoPS in depth. :tongue_smilie:

 

My oldest got bored by IP. It was mostly more of the same until you got to the challenge sections, and the really hard problems in those sections usually weren't using deeper math, but were more the puzzling type problems, some of them requiring straight guessing until you get the answer. Again, not at all like AoPS, where the challenge problems combine techniques you've learned and require you to apply them.

 

We continued using CWP with the TB/WB, but I dropped IP.

[Runningmom80]

I also have BA 3 A&B. So maybe I will use that in place of IP.

 

 

 

He hates when anything is challenging, how dare he actually have to work to understand something. That's why I hate when I hand him the workbook and he whips through it. Last year BA was just a tad too tricky. I'm thinking I may try it again.

[Crimson Wife]

He hates when anything is challenging, how dare he actually have to work to understand something. That's why I hate when I hand him the workbook and he whips through it. Last year BA was just a tad too tricky. I'm thinking I may try it again.

My oldest is like that. She claims that she "hates" math, but she also "hates" anything that doesn't immediately come easily to her (dance, piano, swimming before she got the hang of it, etc.) The problem is that so many things *DO* come very easily to her that it's almost like she gets offended when she (*GASP*) actually has to work at something. I feel it's very important from a character-building perspective that she not be allowed to just coast through her schoolwork but instead be challenged by it. If she can easily whip through a program and get it >95% correct on a regular basis, then I'm just wasting her time.

 

If some of the IP problems require a "trial and error" approach to solving them, I don't have any issue with that. Sometimes in life we're faced with problems that we need to take that approach. People need to be able to deal with those without freezing up or having a meltdown.

[Runningmom80]

My oldest is like that. She claims that she "hates" math, but she also "hates" anything that doesn't immediately come easily to her (dance, piano, swimming before she got the hang of it, etc.) The problem is that so many things *DO* come very easily to her that it's almost like she gets offended when she (*GASP*) actually has to work at something. I feel it's very important from a character-building perspective that she not be allowed to just coast through her schoolwork but instead be challenged by it. If she can easily whip through a program and get it >95% correct on a regular basis, then I'm just wasting her time.

 

If some of the IP problems require a "trial and error" approach to solving them, I don't have any issue with that. Sometimes in life we're faced with problems that we need to take that approach. People need to be able to deal with those without freezing up or having a meltdown.

I completely agree. DS is still young, so on the one hand, I don't want to push him too hard, but on the other hand, I want him to value working hard to get the right answer as opposed to just knowing the right answer.

 

Now I just need to work on my patience. Lol

[Dana]

I completely agree. DS is still young, so on the one hand, I don't want to push him too hard, but on the other hand, I want him to value working hard to get the right answer as opposed to just knowing the right answer.

 

Now I just need to work on my patience. Lol

 

I'm still working on patience!

 

There were some problems starting in CWP 3 or 4, to my recollection, where I gave my son the problem, he didn't get it after working on it for 15-20 min, so I took it away. Then I gave it back the next day. I think there was one that it took him 3 days to finally solve. That's where I was so pleased & proud of him.... I think if he were in traditional school he'd be bored much of the time. Here I'm able to on occasion push him to a place where he does have to struggle.

 

I don't recall much that took effort from him until level 3 or 4.

I'm also glad that I require work shown and on some problems (even easy ones) I've made him do the bar model and show the work.

I've talked with him regularly that just getting the right answer is useless. You've got to be able to communicate it to someone else and convince them WHY your answer is correct.

 

It can be a very tricky balance to find. And we had some doozies of fights when we were getting started! (I remember once when we were just starting & I gave him two IP pages to do while I went downstairs and moved laundry... came back up and he'd glued the pages together...he had done the work first :D  ... nitwit boy lost access to glue sticks after that!!!) 

 

Good luck to you!!!

[Greenmama2]

I also have BA 3 A&B. So maybe I will use that in place of IP.

He hates when anything is challenging, how dare he actually have to work to understand something. That's why I hate when I hand him the workbook and he whips through it. Last year BA was just a tad too tricky. I'm thinking I may try it again.

I heartily recommend doing this. DD 7 is almost finished with 3A and it has been absolutely fabulous for the "do hard things" subject which is the core of our curriculum for young ms perfectionist ;) I have all of SM4 sitting here & she could race through that with only a little challenge and probably a lot of boredom. BA is really, really hard for her in that she not only has to think but has to face that part of herself that gets upset when she can't do something immediately. For that reason we both love it. She feels such a sense of achievement afterwards that she tells me BA stands for "Best Activity". Reminding her of that before she starts every day is the hard part of my job though...

[Runningmom80]

Thank you everyone! I dug out BA, and found DS' placement test. I thought I would share this story, because it cracks me up. I gave him the test last year, and there is a bubble at the top that says something about "the student should be able to answer 12 out of 16 correctly," so DS takes the test and he gives it to me with only 12 done, I asked him why he didn't finish it and he pointed to that bubble. :)

 

I am going to look through BA today and decide if we should try it again. I wish my DS liked math, because I really like BA. At this point, I just need him to not balk at anything challenging.

 

 

(I wish I could figure out how to add emoticons on my iPad. I'd have several in this post alone.)

[mathwonk]

It does sound to me as if your challenge may be not so much in choosing the right book, but in encouraging your child to try harder materials with problems that do not come immediately to him. Lots of bright kids have this issue I think. When I was a kid this affected me. My self concept was tied to things being easy for me. It took me a long time to be willing to try hard things. But when I did, it freed me to become a successful researcher.