Thoughts on Saxon Algebra?

[Halcyon]

We havent really looked at Saxon before, but would appreciate hearing from those who have used it. Is it spiral or mastery? (I am guessing spiral). Is it good for mathy kids who don't need a lot of repitition? Are the explanations complete, or perhaps TOO complete for a child who "gets" math quickly (but is younger)?

 

Thank you!

[Erin]

I think the explanations are pretty clear-cut, personally. A child who's ready for Algebra (and good at math) will probably be able to pretty much self-teach, just out of their book.

Spiral, definitely. That's kind of Saxon's trademark. There's really as much repetition as you want. You can do all of the lesson problems, or just a few. The Practice section revisits previous lessons, usually just a single problem, though. Or, several skills are reworked in a single problem.

[Brenda in MA]

I've used both with my kids and far, far prefer the Dolciani texts. Saxon drove my math-bright son crazy with the endless practice, so he only used it for one year. The varied levels of problems in Dolciani allowed me to tailor the courses to my son's needs. IMHO, Doliciani does a much better job helping the student to gain a conceptual understanding of math.

 

Brenda

[Ellie]

Saxon is incremental, not spiral. :-)

 

But it is not recommended doing Algebra 1 as the first Saxon text, so if you think Saxon might work for you, you'd want to start at least at Math 76. :-)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

DS did Saxon Algebra 1 past year for 5th grade. It was his first Saxon book and he did great! With Saxon, it is important to do every problem unlike other math programs. His schools has had great results with saxon. There are a lot of support material. We use Saxon teacher and Art Reed videos.

[BakersDozen]

We actually use both Saxon and a "regular" text for Algebra. One year we use Saxon, the second year (we do two years of Algebra) we use the other text. Great reinforcement of concepts during a time that my dc's brains seem to go to sleep a bit. ;)

[Lugrita]

That might be my least-favorite algebra text, but I have looked at only a handful of algebra texts so my experience is admittedly limited. We jumped off the Saxon train altogether at/because of their algebra text.

[Lori D.]

Saxon is both incremental (tiny sequential steps), and spiral (keeps coming back around to topics with further information, both within the year of instruction, and in future years of instruction). Starting along about the Saxon 6/7 and increasingly into the Algebra and above levels, Saxon becomes much more abstract (non-concrete / non-visual) in explanation, and increasingly based on learning algorithms and the steps in solving equations. In comparison to Singapore's NEM, Art of Problem Solving, etc., Saxon is much more about "plug and chug" (memorize equations, figure out which kind of word problem requires which equation, plug the right equation in, and "chug" away through the steps to get to the answer) -- and much less about math connections, math thinking, and problem solving.

 

Saxon is known for incorporating quite a lot of review in each lesson; some people have their students do only every other problem to reduce the repetition, while others say that causes your student to miss the slow build up of understanding and thus not gain the full benefit of the program.

 

 

Without knowing your DS, it's hard to say whether or not it would work for him. Saxon works well for many students. However, it was a "fail" for both our DSs for different reasons.

 

Younger DS is a highly visual-spatial learner who struggles with abstract math concepts; he absolutely needs a visual/concrete presentation of the abstract algebra topics to have any hope of understanding them. (He did Jacobs Algebra and then re-did Algebra 1 the following year with MUS.)

 

Older DS is a natural at math and for 2 reasons did not click with Saxon -- review overkill for him, plus the incremental "bites" of instruction were too small of a bite and spread out over multiple lessons too far apart -- often 2, 3, or even 5 lessons in between before seeing the next "bite" of instruction. It drove him nuts; he just wanted to focus on a topic, with a good chunk of information for each lesson. (He did Jacobs Algebra and the first half of Singapore's NEM and very much enjoyed both.)

 

 

Best if you can check out an actual Saxon text for yourself -- esp. if you can compare with several other texts simultaneously to see which would best fit your student. Your local library may have a copy. Or perhaps a local homeschooler can let you look through their copy. Here is the table of contents and a few sample pages. Here is the placement test for Saxon Algebra 1.

 

BEST of luck in finding the best fit for math! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Nan in Mass]

I tried Saxon with two - one math bright and one significantly less so. It was a disaster for both of them. Neither was able to apply their math to anything outside the Saxon book, even other math books. Even my clan noticed and began to make tut tut noises. I think perhaps for one, the emphasis on algorithms rather than the reason behind the algorithms meant that he was unable to apply his math (partly because he didn't retain it). The other one I am fairly certain was unable to put the tiny little bits together into a cohesive picture of how math works. The really scary part is that it looked like it was working. They both did fine on the Saxon problem sets. It was only when they stepped away from the Saxon book that it became obvious it wasn't working. It does seem to work fine for many people, so I don't want to tell you it won't work for you, but I would encourage you to keep checking to make sure your child is able to apply math to real world problems, like science or building something or navigation, and to have them try problems from other math books from time to time, just to check whether Saxon is REALLY working or not. We wasted a year of math for each child before switching to Singapore, which worked well for both of them. Dolciani was nice, too, and worked, and incorportated some of the things I had liked about the Saxon.

 

Nan

[wapiti]

IIRC there may have been a few pertinent threads on the Accelerated board, e.g., http://forums.welltr...t-here-updated/.

 

Coming from Dolciani Prealgebra, there are so many options - Jacobs (particularly nice for a younger student!), Dolciani, Foerster, etc. And then of course there's AoPS - not sure if you caught Wendy's thread not long ago; some people feel that Intro to Algebra is more straightforward(?) than the prealgebra; my ds just finished ch 4 in Intro to Alg, and it's been relatively easy for him so far though I'm sure it'll get tougher soon. For at least some topics, the lessons seem to be broken up into shorter chunks (with correspondingly short exercises) compared to the Prealgebra. If you've ruled out AoPS completely, then Jacobs would be the next on my list to consider for your kiddo (5th/6th gr?)

[Halcyon]

Arcadia put up links to the books to sample in this thread.

Thank you! That's very helpful. Actually, I like the way Saxon Algebra is set up. What's up with that? LOL. But it does seem way too algorithm-based, and that wouldn't be so good for my older.

[Halcyon]

IIRC there may have been a few pertinent threads on the Accelerated board, e.g., http://forums.welltr...t-here-updated/.

 

Coming from Dolciani Prealgebra, there are so many options - Jacobs (particularly nice for a younger student!), Dolciani, Foerster, etc. And then of course there's AoPS - not sure if you caught Wendy's thread not long ago; some people feel that Intro to Algebra is more straightforward(?) than the prealgebra; my ds just finished ch 4 in Intro to Alg, and it's been relatively easy for him so far though I'm sure it'll get tougher soon. For at least some topics, the lessons seem to be broken up into shorter chunks (with correspondingly short exercises) compared to the Prealgebra. If you've ruled out AoPS completely, then Jacobs would be the next on my list to consider for your kiddo (5th/6th gr?)

 

Yes, I will consider Jacobs, and already have Lial's and Dolciani Algebra on my shelf. AoPS pre A didn't work here, so not sure i am willing to invest in AoPs algebra at this point, kwim?

[wapiti]

 

Yes, I will consider Jacobs, and already have Lial's and Dolciani Algebra on my shelf. AoPS pre A didn't work here, so not sure i am willing to invest in AoPs algebra at this point, kwim?

 

There were a few old threads re: Jacobs on the Accelerated board too. It has a certain type of humor. There is instruction on concepts and then the concepts are further developed during the Set II exercises. Set I is usually 5 review exercises. I think there's a good chance you and your ds will really like it (though we only used parts - thanks for reminding me that I want to fit in more Jacobs at some point, LOL - that's how much I like it).

[Teachin'Mine]

Saxon definitely does not work well for some students, but for the students it works for, it's awesome. IMO the only way it should be used is for all the problems to be worked as skipping some will usually cause problems. I do think it's a good idea to supplement with other math problems of some kind and this can be done by studying for the math on the SAT or with AoPS or with ... I have heard that it's hard to jump into Saxon after Algebra 1, but I haven't heard that it's necessary to use it before algebra. I think that going from 8/7 to Algebra 1 makes it easier as a lot of geometry is covered that might not have been covered in other math programs, but I think it's doable to start with Algebra 1. It sounds like you're not going to go with Saxon anyway, but I thought this might be helpful for anyone else reading this thread down the line. There are a lot of us who have students who have excelled with Saxon, but most must be on the beach right now. lol It is incremental and spiral and the lessons do take time. IMO there is no shortcut to getting a good math foundation. It's the rare genius who can just read through a lesson, do a problem or two, and move on. A lot of the learning takes place in doing the variety of problems which increase in complexity, and re-working the ones that are missed.

[1Togo]

We used Saxon through calculus with two students -- one gifted in math and the other non-mathy. The gifted student worked through all Saxon books by age 16. He worked every lesson and every problem. The repetition did not bother him and says it made him accurate and fast. The non-mathy student took more years to work through the books, and he also did every lesson and every problem. He needed the repetition, so it did not bother him either. Both did very well on all types of standardized tests -- ACT, SAT, ASVAB, placement tests, etc. Our last student is non-mathy as well. After trying other curriculum, we are back with Saxon and regretting that we dropped it.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

As the math teacher at school said they have some math students getting a 5 on AP calculus in 7th grade with saxon math! They also have good results with the other kids using Saxon math. I do supplement with the free videos from Khan Academy and AOPS occasionally. We also have Jacobs and few other supplements on the shelf if need be. DS has had no problem applying conceptually. he does work hard though:)

[Omma]

Saxon definitely does not work well for some students, but for the students it works for, it's awesome. IMO the only way it should be used is for all the problems to be worked as skipping some will usually cause problems. I do think it's a good idea to supplement with other math problems of some kind and this can be done by studying for the math on the SAT or with AoPS or with ... I have heard that it's hard to jump into Saxon after Algebra 1, but I haven't heard that it's necessary to use it before algebra. I think that going from 8/7 to Algebra 1 makes it easier as a lot of geometry is covered that might not have been covered in other math programs, but I think it's doable to start with Algebra 1. It sounds like you're not going to go with Saxon anyway, but I thought this might be helpful for anyone else reading this thread down the line. There are a lot of us who have students who have excelled with Saxon, but most must be on the beach right now. lol It is incremental and spiral and the lessons do take time. IMO there is no shortcut to getting a good math foundation. It's the rare genius who can just read through a lesson, do a problem or two, and move on. A lot of the learning takes place in doing the variety of problems which increase in complexity, and re-working the ones that are missed.

 

Thank you for the above note. Yes, this is helpful for me as we will be new to Saxon this year, starting with 8/7 and then hopefully going on to Algebra I. I guess we won't be skipping problems! I know I definitely have one student who needs the incremental approach. I have on hand both DIVE and Teaching Tapes Technology. I am not sure when I will use what, but I feel good knowing that I have all this available to us as we begin. I have another dc who is bright at math, and she will also be doing 8/7 as an incoming 6th grader. She has done extremely well at math, but I think a lot of it has had to do with her ability to memorize, and it seems that Saxon's weekly tests will make sure that someone has mastered the material rather than just memorized the formulas. At least, this is what I am hoping.

[Teachin'Mine]

Omma I really don't think that memorizing is what Saxon is about at the high school level. Apart from some geometry and trig formulas, there's no need to memorize anything. My dd never had to study for a test as the built-in review kept it all current. Even now in college math classes studying involves some minor memorization, but it's mostly about working problems. The type of memorization your daughter has already done will help tremendously in 8/7 and classes beyond that. A good part of elementary arithmetic is about memorization - addition, multiplication, fractions, percents, etc.. IMO the understanding of concepts on what they've memorized builds as they continue to use their knowledge. The facts practice in Saxon is all about helping students to get their facts down pat. I don't know any other way to know measurements other than to memorize them. When the elementary math facts are brought to mind instantly, the student can work much more easily on complex fractions, algebra and geometry problems.

[Brenda in MA]

it seems that Saxon's weekly tests will make sure that someone has mastered the material rather than just memorized the formulas. At least, this is what I am hoping.

 

Omma,

 

Don't be so sure of that. I had one that used Saxon for 4 or 5 years, and it wasn't til he was in Advanced Math that I realized that he didn't understand what he was doing. He has a great memory and was able to get As on the tests by memorizing procedures. His experience was exactly as Nan described. So I concur with her that Saxon can be a good program for some, but it's definitely important to have your dc try problems from other programs occassionally to make sure they really are understanding what they are doing and can apply it.

 

Brenda

[Omma]

Thanks, guys! I will try out Saxon 8/7 this year and see how it goes, but will keep what you have mentioned in mind. We have done a lot of BJU with the distance learning, so they have heard lots of explanations and reasons as to the hows and whys of math. Now I just want to focus on giving them more drills and practice problems and problem sets and see if math can become more second nature to them. I am kind of nervous about just how long I've heard that Saxon math can take each day, but I did give both my dc a placement test, and will just go by those results and see what happens this coming year. I wish I would've started Saxon at 7/6, but that's hindsight for you!

[Erin]

Long ago and far away when I started my professional life teaching country school, almost all of the rural schools in the county used Saxon. I remember talking to several of the high school (where the country kids would attend after graduating 8th grade) math/science teachers at a conference once and they all said how happy they were to have the country school kids in their classes. They had a FAR better grasp of math than the town kids did who used a different curriculum.

It's the primary reason I've used Saxon when homeschooling...

[dangermom]

FWIW, my daughter has a math-genius friend in PS who loves to work through Saxon on her own. She likes the explanations. I was surprised at this, actually.

[Rebel Yell]

Posted Yesterday, 07:47 PM

Omma, on 29 June 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

 

it seems that Saxon's weekly tests will make sure that someone has mastered the material rather than just memorized the formulas. At least, this is what I am hoping.

 

 

Omma,

 

Don't be so sure of that. I had one that used Saxon for 4 or 5 years, and it wasn't til he was in Advanced Math that I realized that he didn't understand what he was doing. He has a great memory and was able to get As on the tests by memorizing procedures. His experience was exactly as Nan described. So I concur with her that Saxon can be a good program for some, but it's definitely important to have your dc try problems from other programs occassionally to make sure they really are understanding what they are doing and can apply it.

 

Brenda

 

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

Diamond was not doing well with Saxon Algebra- and we had used Saxon since 1st grade! A friend who teaches math at a major city university met with us and gace her a few simple sample problems. I KNEW she learned them- and very recently, too, with the help of the very expenseive Saxon Teacher DVDs- but she looked at them as though they were written in invisible ink. When our friend changed the way the problems were presented and asked her a few questions, she immediately knew how to figure it out- but never made the connection that it was the same problem! She only knew what to do when it was written in "Saxonese."

 

We couldn't dump Saxon fast enough. :glare:

[Rebel Yell]

I tried Saxon with two - one math bright and one significantly less so. It was a disaster for both of them. Neither was able to apply their math to anything outside the Saxon book, even other math books. Even my clan noticed and began to make tut tut noises. I think perhaps for one, the emphasis on algorithms rather than the reason behind the algorithms meant that he was unable to apply his math (partly because he didn't retain it). The other one I am fairly certain was unable to put the tiny little bits together into a cohesive picture of how math works. The really scary part is that it looked like it was working. They both did fine on the Saxon problem sets. It was only when they stepped away from the Saxon book that it became obvious it wasn't working. It does seem to work fine for many people, so I don't want to tell you it won't work for you, but I would encourage you to keep checking to make sure your child is able to apply math to real world problems, like science or building something or navigation, and to have them try problems from other math books from time to time, just to check whether Saxon is REALLY working or not. We wasted a year of math for each child before switching to Singapore, which worked well for both of them. Dolciani was nice, too, and worked, and incorportated some of the things I had liked about the Saxon.

 

Nan

 

(copying my reply to another similar post...)

 

Diamond was not doing well with Saxon Algebra- and we had used Saxon since 1st grade! A friend who teaches math at a major city university met with us and gace her a few simple sample problems. I KNEW she learned them- and very recently, too, with the help of the very expenseive Saxon Teacher DVDs- but she looked at them as though they were written in invisible ink. When our friend changed the way the problems were presented and asked her a few questions, she immediately knew how to figure it out- but never made the connection that it was the same problem! She only knew what to do when it was written in "Saxonese."

 

We couldn't dump Saxon fast enough. :glare:

[Lugrita]

 

Diamond was not doing well with Saxon Algebra- and we had used Saxon since 1st grade! A friend who teaches math at a major city university met with us and gace her a few simple sample problems. I KNEW she learned them- and very recently, too, with the help of the very expenseive Saxon Teacher DVDs- but she looked at them as though they were written in invisible ink. When our friend changed the way the problems were presented and asked her a few questions, she immediately knew how to figure it out- but never made the connection that it was the same problem! She only knew what to do when it was written in "Saxonese."

 

We couldn't dump Saxon fast enough. :glare:

 

We had a very similar experience this past year with Saxon Algebra. I saw glimpses of trouble in 8/7, but I convinced myself that we were the problem, and not Saxon. My son worked very hard at it because he was determined to do well with Saxon, but ultimately we faced similar issues described above. My son is very bright and had never before experienced any trouble in math whatsoever, but suddenly I was losing him in algebra (until we switched to a different curriculum). He was not making the connections at all. Additionally, I enjoy algebra and I'm fairly competent in the subject, but I despised that book and I did not like the way that it was presented (pp's have explained it perfectly so there is no need for me to reiterate it)...I don't appreciate Saxonese. :)

 

We dumped Saxon in January and finished the year with another algebra curriculum. After dumping Saxon Algebra, I was so aware of the pitfalls of the entire Saxon program that I dumped it for my three younger kids at the same time. I sold all of it very cheaply, including the expensive teacher cd's. Bye bye, Saxon! It's a great program for some, it looks decent from the outside, and it gets the job done, but for us it was a mistake.