Pre-college options for kid wanting to move on (Zoology, specifically?)

[Dmmetler]

DD and I had a serious talk today while at lunch, and what it comes down to is that, while she loves her contests and so on, she wants to seriously consider moving to college early so she can focus on what she loves and plans to do with her life-undergrad degree in zoology, followed by grad work in herpetology and vet school, with the goal of doing field-based conservation and research work, including captive breeding and education programs.

 

She's very aware that this will be 12 or so years of school after high school, so she wants to start ASAP. And she wants to come up with a plan to get her there as soon as possible.

 

So, what would those of you further along this path suggest? I'd really like to keep a deep curriculum as opposed to a " get it done as fast as possible", but I want to validate her desires as well-which, I guess, means that I need to start treating her more like the upper middle school student that's the level she's working on, vs the barely in middle elementary student she is age-wise, since if she really wants to move on, that means she'd need to progress towards graduating early.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions on where to proceed with this? (And, of course, we had this discussion when we're on vacation....).

[SarahW]

As a disclaimer, I don't know much about zoology, but...

 

with the goal of doing field-based conservation and research work, including captive breeding and education programs.

 

 

 

I have a friend who does field research for WWF and her job is nearly 100% statistics. Not sure if stats is on your radar yet, but it seems that at least having a working knowledge of it will be necessary to do research.

[lewelma]

What a cool goal. You must be really proud of her.

 

I have a PhD in Ecology, which I obtained through 2 different programs - one in Biology, and one in Ecology, Evolution, and Conservation Biology. From my point of view, what your daughter is describing is Conservation Biology rather than vet school, even if the focus was on exotic animals. Conservation Biology is about studying behaviour, habitat, and population size of a whole species. A vet's focus is on the actual health of the individual animal. Obviously the two overlap with certain questions and situations.

 

Let me give you some example of the projects that my colleagues were working on as Conservation Biologists and Ecologists:

1) The effect of horn removal in rhino. This project was done in Africa. They were removing the horns to stop poaching, but no one had checked if this practice would affect mating, defence, food acquisition etc.

2) The behaviour of colonial spiders in Mexico. These spiders built massive webs between telephone polls that were up to 1km long. The question was how they actually coordinated this social project.

3) The defensive behaviour of endangered porcupines. This project was fun because the guy had night vision equipment and tranquilizer guns.

4) My advisor studied the behaviour of monkeys in the Caribbean.

5) Here in NZ, there are scientists studying the Tuatara, asking questions about small populations and genetics, requirements for range expansion, etc.

 

Ecologists evaluate the health of their animals in the field -- they just don't operate. There are vets that work in the field, but captive breeding mostly occurs at the zoo, rather than in the field. So if she is really interested in serious field work, she may need to look more carefully into whether applying to vet school is her best option. Obviously she is young, but she does sound driven and I am guessing that she would be very interested in researching this differentiation in the field that she wants to study.

 

I, of course, would suggest that in addition to a standard STEM prep, that your dd do some large scale investigations to test her own ideas about the wildlife that she sees around her own home.

 

Happy to answer questions,

 

Ruth in NZ

[Dmmetler]

I think that's a good way to look. She's looking at wildlife management as well, but a great deal of work in that field has to do with how to best kill off invasive species without harming native ones, and that doesn't appeal.

 

The class she sat in on in the Spring was on observing animals in the field and documenting them-but she wasn't able to do much actual fieldwork. Even with the regional herp society, she rarely gets to go on the more interesting field trips because of age and liability (she did get to participate in a frog count, which she loved and I didn't-spending large amounts of time sitting quietly in a swampy, mosquito and black-fly habitat, with a digital recorder and a notebook, listening for and documenting frog and toad mating calls and looking for signs of the with a goal of estimating population health is NOT my favorite way to spend time). Unfortunately, we're in too urban of an area for her to do field observation in our backyard with much more than the Earth snakes that live under the shed, ground squirrels, tree squirrels, and about a half-dozen bird species.

 

I think her dream is something like the Kentucky Reptile Zoo, which focuses on researching the biomedical uses of snake venom, safely harvesting it for medical uses and research, and captive breeding/preservation of endangered species, plus educational programming (and fundraising). She also knows two hobby breeders who work with specific endangered species which are allowable for captive breeding ( non-venomous relatively small species which are often poached from the wild for use as pets) which appeals to her as well, since she's all about snakes as pets and educating people to not be scared of or harm reptiles in the environment. I think she's still partially tied into the primary school "Vets are people who help animals", which is why she's set a goal of a DVM when she'd probably be better off aiming for a PhD-she's got a few years yet to make up her mind, though (since I imagine an undergrad degree in either Bio or Zoology would be a good place to start for both.

 

I found a MOOC program for biology online (that listed out and linked various courses, supposedly equivalent to a BS), so I'm thinking I may turn her loose on it and see what happens.

 

 

[Dmmetler]

The problem is that she's 8-and therefore the number of unpaid volunteer positions she's eligible for is tiny. Add animals to the mix, and it's even fewer. Pretty much she's limited to things like the Backyard Bird count (or the equivalent for frogs), in relatively urban, safe areas, and that's with me co-signing. Even the groups that cater to amateurs tend to not want kids there (I've pointed out to DD that while birds aren't her favorite animal, birdwatching would be a good way to practice the observation skills needed to do research-she'd just been turned down for a herping trip, and I was trying to find an alternative-only to find out that "birdwatching for kids" was for ages 12 and up, even with a parent present, and they wouldn't even consider an 8 yr old).

 

At this point, it seems likely that she'll be able to get in for a college class at the local university before she'll be able to get into a volunteer position at an animal rescue.

[robbyjo]

I would first suggest getting your DD to take AP or IB classes in Biology and Statistics. They will come in really handy in many biomed classes and jobs. I can't stress it enough: Beef up on stats. It will be very useful if she's turning into research career (and very few bio-oriented researchers are stat-savvy at the moment, so stat skills will make her very attractive to employers).

 

If you prefer doing homeschool for the time being, you may want to get your DD interested in animal anatomy and physiology. Here's a few:

http://www.amazon.com/Saunders-Veterinary-Anatomy-Coloring-Book/dp/1437714390

http://www.amazon.com/Color-Atlas-Small-Animal-Anatomy/dp/0813816084

http://www.amazon.com/Textbook-Veterinary-Anatomy-Dyce-MRCVS/dp/1416066071

http://www.amazon.com/Functional-Anatomy-Physiology-Domestic-Animals/dp/0813814510

 

Books on Statistics (typically for first year university students):

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Statistical-Methods-Data-Analysis/dp/0495017582/

 

Typicall statistics work will require some level of programming---and for that end I'd recommend R (http://r-projects.org). The intro book for that is this book (a very nice supplement to the book above, so if you decide to get her study some stats, get both books):

http://www.amazon.com/Discovering-Statistics-Using-Andy-Field/dp/1446200469

 

These two might be good for comparison, but require somewhat more math-rigor:

http://www.amazon.com/Using-Introductory-Statistics-Chapman-Hall/dp/1584884509

http://www.amazon.com/Introductory-Statistics-R-Computing/dp/0387790535

 

Beyond that, I would suggest asking local colleges for auditing classes, if she cannot apply just yet.

[Barbara H]

Without knowing more specifics of your situation and your local options, here's a few general ideas:

 

1. Start working with local mentors. Yes, ideally it would be wonderful to find someone in wildlife rehab, but it doesn't have to be focused that narrowly. As she's still young and hasn't gone that far into high school, she still should have a wide range of options - so for example, it might be a chemistry professor. Mentors provide something a child will never get from online classes or MOOCs and if the mentor is a professor he/she may help transition into college work.

 

2. Look at the expectations for a rigorous high school curriculum and start on a few and see how it goes. There are PG kids who are really ready intellectually for high school work long before they are ready for the output required by an AP course for example or the emotional maturity necessary to handle criticism.

 

3. Try to avoid building in deadlines. It is great she wants to move on to challenging work but it doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. Try a little high school and see how it goes. When the time is right audit a college course and see how it goes. Bit by bit evaluate and remain flexible to do what works and leave aside what doesn't.

 

4. Once she's into high school work try the ACT or SAT if she's not done so already.

[bakpak]

I have a PhD in ecology as well, and I agree with lewelma that it sounds like she might be more interested in going down the PhD road (but maybe we're biased). Or she can do both! :) It's not super common, but I know a few who have both a PhD and a DVM, and it allows someone with a Vet background to do research as well. It probably pays more than a typical ecologist would make as well, if that's a concern. Most of the ones I know focus on diseases however (learning about every parasite that can infect your brain/lungs/heart etc. is not my favorite thing however!), but I'm sure there are also avenues like trying to develop practical uses for venom. To me, that sounds a bit narrow though...

 

I suspect your daughter's interests will morph and broaden as she matures and is exposed to more people/projects. Her interests will likely stretch depending on her experiences, so I would focus on getting her lots of varied experience, not just what she's interested in right now. So to be a good conservationist/ethologist/herpetologist, she needs a really good world view and a broad background in ecology. Taking classes in mammalogy and ornithology and animal behavior (ethology) will likely excite her as well as general naturalist classes.

 

I think your daughter would like the research route best. There is lots of opportunity for going down rabbit holes and popping up for air to chase a different amazing idea. The most successful ecologists these days are big collaborators, so working on people skills is important as well. SarahW is right...ecologists heavily depend on statistics and mapping (GIS) skills to be successful. Excellent writing skills are a must too. It's fun to spend all your time in your younger adult years hands-on playing with the animals and roaming the world exploring different habitats, but when it comes down to making a difference, science and policy is where it's at. But enough time for her to figure that out - no need to rain on her dreams yet! ;) When her knees and back complain about hiking another mountain/jungle, she can plop down at a desk & put all that practical experience to good use at a computer screen.

 

I did research in Great Smoky Mountains National Park, and they had excellent programs for middle schoolers & teenagers for getting out and collecting data http://www.gsmit.org/ . I know, because I gave some talks to them or had them help collect data for me! I think if you kept going to the educators at national parks or nature centers and found the right person, they would help hook you up with projects that your daughter could join in on. Her age is obviously an issue, but keep at it and more doors will open. As you know, it's all about finding the right mentor, and that takes lots of trial and error.

 

Have you looked up Herpetology camps? There are so many crazy herpers out there that there must be camps. I know there are camps for crazy obsessed young birders (your daughter's age even), so if they don't exist, start bugging folks and indicate your interest. I'll ask a couple herper friends and see if they know of anything. Has your daughter asked about camps on the herpetology forum that she belongs to, or is it mainly for pet owners?

 

I would also involve your daughter in lots of Citizen Science projects. Even things that she doesn't think she's too interested in...my friend does lots of this (sampling bellybuttons or ants from your yard, or insects from the recesses of your house): see the Projects listed at the bottom of his page:

www.robrdunn.com . Citizen science projects that she can do at home, even if it involves different fauna, would be useful for her to develop important research skills. The Cornell site has bird ones obviously.

 

I'll let you know if I hear anything from my friends.

[SunshineMom]

Your dd might enjoy Scistarter, a citizen science program (field science).

[lewelma]

You sound really frustrated. I am so sorry that age is a restriction in so many things that your dd wants to do. But if she wants to do field work and she has a passion for animals, I think that you could definitely do research without the help of an organization. From the point of view of a 8 or 9 year old, I am sure that it would not be as glamourous as working on a 'real' project, but it can still be very fulfilling. You stated that you want a deep curriculum rather than a get-it-done, so I would get her in the field with her own questions -- she does not need to wait 4 years to be old enough. Plus, she will definitely learn more by doing her own investigations than she will be joining someone elses. I would suggest that you find a place to 'publish' her results. For example, when my ds was 6 he surveyed all the mushrooms in the local woods, and we had the local newspaper come over and write a story about it. It *was* real research -- what was the most common mushroom in the woods that year? How many different species were there? This was *new* information that you could not read about in a book.

 

Although she has a passion for herpetology, I think she would get a lot out of doing standard ecology labs. Here are just a few to think about that you could do in your urban environment:

 

How do you 'count' organisms? Do a transect with worms or weeds. Research what to do for a long term study when the animal's range has no boundaries. You don't always count every animal every time. Is there a way to assume they are still alive?

 

How do you record data about behaviour? What is a separate behaviour? How often do you write it down? How long can it last? You could do this kind of work with your squirrels.

 

What kind of habitat does your species prefer? Is there any competition? How do the species divide up resources so they don't compete? You can do this work with bees.

 

My sister won the Virginia State Science Fair in 9th grade with the question "Do squirrels prefer acorns or do they just eat them because there is not a better option?" She put out walnuts, almonds, and cashews, and found that the squirrels preferred walnuts over acorns.

 

Here is a website for high school ecology labs. It is quite good and has lots of ideas. http://www.biologyco...-plans/ecology/

 

And here are my thoughts as to what an investigation actually teaches:

 

x-post:

One of the reasons I really like one big project every year is that it brings together all the different skills from both life and school and requires my children to use them all at once. Finding the project requires them to brainstorm, determine their interests, evaluate if a project is possible, and make a decision! The scale of the project requires them to make a plan, manage their time, be persistent over the long hall, and maintain their motivation The difficulties we run into every week require them to problem solve and research, and teaches them that mistakes WILL happen and that you can and should learn from them. The write up requires: summarizing, simplifying, graphing, layout skills, attention to detail, and oral presentation skills. And the entire process builds self esteem. What more could you ask for? Clearly, this process is not just about science!

 

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ruth in NZ

[SunshineMom]

Ruth, thank you for the high school labs link!

[Dmmetler]

We'll look at the citizen science sites-she's done bird counts and frog counts, so there's likely to be something else out there, and she might go for a field project as well, even if it's just in the backyard.

 

Some herp societies have camps-I know Phoenix has a great-sounding one. Just not here.

 

I've decided that 8 is just plain a frustrating age. So much is K-3 or 5-8 in age, and she did all the zoo classes and the like for that age group when she was 5. Even when there's a new one, she is reluctant to do it because of the fact that it's designed for kids who are so much younger than she is (and in science, even kids her age seem younger to her). I'm hoping that this fall, I can get her in some of the 4th-6th grade ones, which are still below her level, but might at least be interesting, and when school starts up here, we can resume going to the zoo regularly (too crowded and too hot in the summer), where she can monopolize the keeper's time at the "keeper chats" for various animals because there aren't 500 kids asking questions that DD could answer as easily as the keeper could.

 

I love the idea of her coming up with something to do with the ground or tree squirrels. They're certainly numerous enough.

[sunriseiz]

What about being in 4-H animal projects - bunnies are OK for 8-year olds, also poultry (including game birds), cavies/guinea pigs and pygmy goats. Check with your local clubs. The curriculum materials are available for purchase at the 4-H web site even if you're not in 4-H. We're even in a 4-H wildlife project with our county...they cover a different habitat every year but let us do a presentation on any animal native to our state. We had a presentation on owls, on bats, and on salmon, among others.

 

I would check into 4H. Techically, it starts at 4th grade, but they've let my DD9 (rising 4th) attend the last few months. It's been very good and they have lots of topics to investigate!

[sunriseiz]

OT, but I saw this list of apps and thought of your daughter!

http://brunalab.org/apps/

[Alte Veste Academy]

You sound really frustrated. I am so sorry that age is a restriction in so many things that your dd wants to do. But if she wants to do field work and she has a passion for animals, I think that you could definitely do research without the help of an organization. From the point of view of a 8 or 9 year old, I am sure that it would not be as glamourous as working on a 'real' project, but it can still be very fulfilling. You stated that you want a deep curriculum rather than a get-it-done, so I would get her in the field with her own questions -- she does not need to wait 4 years to be old enough. Plus, she will definitely learn more by doing her own investigations than she will be joining someone elses.

 

I totally agree with Ruth.

 

You say her opportunities are limited by age, and I get that this is true of the activities you've listed in this thread. But the limitation of age is only a problem when you think of things in standard terms and stay within the confines of "the box." To me, it sounds like the truly limiting factor is thinking of these types of activities as inseparable from the organizations that formally offer them. Age does not have to be a significant limit in real life inquiry. In fact, I believe there is an inverse correlation between age and divergent thinking, so youth can actually be a significant asset in real life inquiry. :D The way you are describing the situation, it almost seems like she wants more of the social interaction of joining a pre-formed group/project than actual involvement in research. Yes, the former might be a problem, but the latter is easy-peasy. Truly.

 

You also say you are limited also by your own back yard and your urban location, but you would be leaving your house to participate in any one of the many activities you listed that she is not old enough for now anyway, LOL. So leave your house to do something she's designed for herself. She can do real, true inquiry. She can ask her own questions and go after her own answers. My kids have been doing true inquiry science for years, gaining skill, confidence, and knowledge with every year. Each inquiry is as easy or complex as they choose to make it. But they have control. Have there ever been areas of interest that we were not equipped to research? Sure. But they find something related, or just continue reading, or improvise... The point is that they are questioning, thinking, and doing for themselves every day.

 

Anyway, I vote encourage her to make her own opportunities. You know, somewhere I have a print-out about starting your own nature group. She could take the lead with something like that. She could start a nature/ecology group for homeschoolers and the kids could do research. Or she could just follow her own rabbit trails and make herself deliriously happy doing so. If she feels her opportunities are limited, now is a great time to teach her that the best kind of life is one in which you make your own opportunities.

[lewelma]

I just wrote this idea up in a private message and thought that your dd might like it:

 

If she wants to do some research on endangered species, she can actually study the design of parks. You just need large transparent sheets. You draw the map of the area on each sheet. Then, you research a different issue about your animal to include on each sheet. One sheet would shade where they can find food. One sheet would shade population density, one sheet would shade predators, one sheet would shade where human encroachment is expected, etc. Then you overlay all the sheets and determine how to draw your park boundaries given the limitations. You can also research park design, because it is important to have separate populations in case of disease (so it would not take out the whole lot), but then you need to put in corridors between populations to reduce genetic isolation. She could do this from snails to desert tortoises. In fact, when I was in Nevada in the 1990s, I did just this project for desert tortoises and the expected population expansion of Las Vegas.

 

The way you are describing the situation, it almost seems like she wants more of the social interaction of joining a pre-formed group/project than actual involvement in research.

Very interesting observation.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I just wrote this idea up in a private message and thought that your dd might like it:

 

If she wants to do some research on endangered species, she can actually study the design of parks. You just need large transparent sheets. You draw the map of the area on each sheet. Then, you research a different issue about your animal to include on each sheet. One sheet would shade where they can find food. One sheet would shade population density, one sheet would shade predators, one sheet would shade where human encroachment is expected, etc. Then you overlay all the sheets and determine how to draw your park boundaries given the limitations. You can also research park design, because it is important to have separate populations in case of disease (so it would not take out the whole lot), but then you need to put in corridors between populations to reduce genetic isolation. She could do this from snails to desert tortoises. In fact, when I was in Nevada in the 1990s, I did just this project for desert tortoises and the expected population expansion of Las Vegas.

 

Ooooh, you reminded me of one of my favorite books. Noah's Garden: Restoring the Ecology of Our Own Backyards. Such a wonderful book! It was shortly after reading this book that I became interested in native landscaping for wildlife. We had recently purchased a new construction home with typical "builder-grade" garden beds, and this book inspired me to begin a major landscaping project. The kids helped plan what to plant for what kinds of animals we wanted to attact to our garden. We made sure to have something for everyone. It was a project that spanned several years, all told. We made many visits to local native nurseries, learning more each time we went. Oldest DS and I attended some lectures from visiting gardeners hosted by our favorite native nursery. My favorite resource was Texas Wildscapes: Gardening for Wildlife. Choosing native plants that are drought tolerant and planting to attract native wildlife, you can even get certified as a Texas Wildscape. I have to wonder if other states have similar programs. We ran out of time before our move, but I am eager to begin the project again when we move back to Texas. I think prefacing it with a study like you suggest will make it even more meaningful and educational. It was one of the most rewarding things I have ever done, and we all learned a ridiculous amount about plants, animals, ecosystems, diversity, symbiosis... We researched, diagrammed, sketched, planned and plotted, kept a budget, read, read, and read some more.

 

There is just so very much to learn out there! I could garden my whole life in Texas and not know all there is to know about it. That's just how I feel about life, I guess. There is an infinite amount of knowledge to be gained and, comparatively, a very short time in which to do it. To me that is one of the great things about homeschooling. When we are interested in something, we can pursue it. We don't have to wait for the right time; we can just dive right in. We don't have to worry about running into limits or being told no. We can just give ourselves a big ol' yes!

 

If anyone is interested. :D

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0395653738/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/wildlife_diversity/wildscapes/wildscape_certification.phtml

[Dmmetler]

As far as wanting to find a Pre-formed group, keep in mind-THEY DON'T TEACH ECOLOGY FIELD STUDY IN THE SCHOOL OF MUSIC! It's a lot easier to create high level opportunities for your DC when they are in your field or a related one. If DD were passionate about acoustics, I'd have it made-One of my main research foci hits that area strongly, and I know multiple instrument builders/technicians/musicologists who could give her real-world experience in everything from old harps to pipe organs to contemporary electric guitars to theoretical instruments, plus know of or could create a ton of resources on the topic. But as far as biology goes, I had one high school class in it, one AP class in it, and haven't taken any since graduating high school. I never took a class in Zoology or Ecology specifically. I've learned a lot with DD, but this isn't one of the areas that I feel secure enough in to really know how to guide her.

 

I like the habitat idea-and thinking about it, DSIL is a civil engineer, and I know that one of the things she's talked about having to take into account is Gopher tortoises and how planned development will affect them, so I'm guessing she might be able to give DD some suggestions as well. I also know an Environmental engineer (a college friend of DH's) who has two GT kids herself. Neither are local, but they're both women working in fields that at least tangentially relate to what DD wants to do, who would probably be up for SKYPE conversations-and may have ideas of where to go next.

 

I picked up the Aquatic Wild educator's guide on a used rack at my favorite homeschool store-it looks like it has a lot of good ideas on studies kids can do, although it's classroom based, and I can certainly find local ponds and aquatic habitats pretty close-there's a park with a nice little, fairly wild pond within biking distance.

 

Thank you for the ideas-and please keep them coming,

[Alte Veste Academy]

Yeah, I was a Social Worker in my former life, so science isn't exactly oozing out of my pores over here either. ;)

 

I guess I am confused about why you feel you need to create these high level courses for her. I am saying that, with her gifts as you have described them here, she seems more than capable of creating these courses for herself. Independent study, we used to call it. Passive instruction from a subject-matter expert is not the only option here. There can be self-education. In science, DS10's pet subject, my kids are set loose on topics of interest to them. They read, tinker, question, form hypotheses, plan and carry out (increasingly complex) experiments and research, and maintain science notebooks. I don't plan these inquiries for them. Truth be told, I am really quite ignorant of a lot of their topics before they even begin. I am a guide, not an instructor, for this part of their science learning.

 

Anyway, I strongly believe in encouraging self-starting and independence in gifted children. She can be free from the teacher-student paradigm for this subject that is most dear to her.

[lewelma]

GT kids are definitely both a joy and a burden to teach. This I know. I *totally* understand how you feel. My older son is going to be a mathematician; he has known this since he was 9. And I am NOT a mathematician. I don't know if you have followed my saga here about finding a tutor/mentor for him, but it has been hard won. In the end, I have been told by the person who leads the International Math Olympiad team for New Zealand, that he is the ONLY person in the city who is willing and capable to tutor at that level. I would assume that he would know. He told me in March that he is not available until September. But then he also said something that I thought would definitely apply to you. He told us that ds could send him proofs, and that he would give suggestions and e-mail them back. The problem was that at that time, ds did not know how to write proofs for anything except Geometry. Basically, it became clear that in order to get high level help, ds needed to be at a high level of knowledge, not just at a high level of potential. Does that make sense?

 

So I have taken it upon myself to personally get him to that high level. I have NEVER done a proof in anything except geometry, and that was in 8th grade. How in the world do I teach him university level math material? Well, you get a book, and you study it along side your child. We worked side by side for 2 hours per day for 10 weeks - so 100 hours. I read the material outloud, we discussed it, we made lists, we struggled through the problems, and we came out the other side with the ability to write basic proofs. Now, he is at the level that the tutor can actually help him.

 

What I am suggesting to you is 2 fold:

 

Level 1) You need to work with your child to have her understand basic scientific inquiry. She needs to start small, at a place that you can help her. And yes, you can help her with basic investigations. All you need to do is brainstorm, help her research her questions, teach her to document, teach her to manage her time, etc. These things are NOT science, they are life skills that all adults have if they function well in society. So you have them. She needs to do a number of projects, each one getting a bit bigger. These projects don't even have to be in field ecology, in fact variety is best. So do some scientific investigations in the production of sound, design of instruments, or other topics you are particularlly comfortable with. The skills she will learn are transferable.

 

Level 2) Once you have done a number of projects and they are somewhat large and complex, you find a mentor. You show him/her what your dd has already done, and ask for a 1 hour per week skype session to help with the scientific issues. You explain that *you* are happy to act as the mentor on the ground for the data collection, time management, encouragement, as long as he can do the scientific understanding. Until my ds was 12, I had to play this role for violin. He had a 1hr per week teacher, but I was the stand-next-to-him-45minutes-per-day person, making sure that he did his scales, exercises, held is wrist a certain way, curled his fingers like this, did the vibrato exercises, etc. And I have NEVER played a violin. This will be your role once you get to level 2.

 

I know it is difficult to work with these types of kids, and exhausting, and frustrating, but we do it because we are their best option. I have just put together a course for my son on Computational Neuroscience - that is, modelling the brain with math. And I can assure you that *I* don't know one whit about it. I did not even know what the field was called when I started trying to make a course for what he wanted to study. I had to go over to the Highschool board and have someone tell me that it is called 'computational neuroscience.' The last science project that my ds did, was NOT science, it was a mathmatical modelling project on Traffic Engineering, and I promise you that I knew NOTHING about that. But in the end, it was fun to learn about these things with him, exhausting, but fun. And I think that you can do it. Music major or not, I think you have the skill.

 

I am definitely willing to help, and would even offer to by that skype tutor, but I am just overflowing with more than I can personally do right now. However, if I remember correctly, don't you live in KY? If so, I will be in KY next week! So depending on where you live, I could meet and talk to both you and your daughter.

 

Ruth in NZ

[NCMom]

I didn't read all of the pp's suggestions, but one of my kids is beginning to participate in a program organized via this site https://www.usanpn.org/ .

 

If you look on the right and click "Nature's Notebook" I think that takes you to the right place. No truly sure exactly what they do (id and track seasonal changes of species in an area over the course of the year?) but she assigned me a portion of our property (and kept the pretty spring w/salamander breeding area for herself, while giving me the bug-infested swampy part... :lol:) , bless her little heart.

 

It looks pretty interesting and a potentially could be a great way to get to know the species in your area while collecting data and making observations.

 

Georgia

[Dmmetler]

Unfortunately, TN and Kentucky border, but we're in the part of TN that is about as far from KY as you can get ;). A week ago, we were pretty close, but we just got back home last night. The Kentucky Reptile Zoo, near Louisville, is the nearest herpetology research center to us.

 

 

She's got a couple of project ideas in mind. And thinking about it-in some ways, she's already doing the next step. One thing she's working on this Spring is that, when breeders post their pairings on the corn snakes board, she's doing the punnet squares and seeing what is expected, and then checking them against the results. (and creating similar charts for her own imaginary, hypothetical breeds). And that's something she's doing on her own (Albeit only after I told her point blank that she wasn't getting to actually bring multiple snakes in to breed herself). So maybe, if I keep resources around and guide her in that way, she'll build up the skillset she needs. She's also doing pretty well at locating adults who are willing to help her, so maybe it will work out.

 

Since we're doing Physics this year, it's a good time to have her come up with a pretty big experiment/project in that area, and work on project design, data recording, and write-ups. And between DH and I, we can probably provide the support she needs there, at least at her current level.

 

 

We'll check out the web site-I'm guessing she'd enjoy it (and I'll end up getting eaten alive by mosquitoes while counting frog croaks again...). We spent yesterday climbing mountains looking for skinks.

[Brad S]

I agree with the point about the importance of learning statistics for research, but it's a multi-year process rather than a sprint.  I'd make sure that math from late elementary onward has some statistics, data analysis, and probability components.  Newer courses are definitely going that direction, but Jacobs Algebra (published in 1978), Saxon, and Art of Problem Solving are quite light in those areas (except that AoPS does have a substantial probability component).  If your budding scientist is interested in research science, I'd be sure that there's a healthy data analysis component in their education each year.  That said, some of those books referred to above are pretty expensive.  I wonder if they really are a lot better than the free CK-12 foundation books at: http://www.ck12.org/statistics/

 

I also agree with the comment that R is useful to learn, although there is more of a learning curve with that software than some others.  It's free, however, and its use is exploding in practice in the research sciences.

 

 

[bakpak]

Let's not forget that really the most important thing is to spark her love of zoology, exploration, creativity, and discovery. Having a great foundation in learning, writing, and math are essential no matter what field she goes into, and she can easily pick up all the specifics, like stats or higher level biology courses, in college. No harm in playing with them early either, but there's no race to the finish line. I suspect your daughter will dive deep whenever she's ready; as you say, you just have to provide the support and resources when you can. I'd focus on keeping it fun and interesting at this point... 

[mathnerd]

I have no ideas on the OP's question, but I just wanted to share that during our treks to National Parks in CA and neighboring states, I got leaflets for the "Junior Ranger" programs that the national parks offered. Some of them had projects for kids involving conservation and about local wildlife. It is free and it could be a fun and interesting project for your daughter. You could even make a trip to a national park with lots of snakes?? It is open to kids above 5 years old.

http://www.nps.gov/learn/juniorranger.cfm

 

[Dmmetler]

I'd forgotten about the Junior ranger program-she did the Everglades/Big Cypress one a couple of years ago.

[EmilyGF]

DH is a prof and has been really really unimpressed with high school students he has mentored - to the point that he will likely never take another one on without the student first showing proof of independent research (and even then it had better be amazing).

 

So, I'd work on getting that proof together. Learn statistics. Learn to code (even art historians are better if they can code - ask me for that story sometime). Analyze publicly available data and write it up. These are things one needs for every field of science I know of.

 

Then, down the road, professors who have been burned will be happy to take your daughter on.

 

Emily

[jennynd]

I won't plan so speciic this early. DS wanted to be a Vet since he was 3, after a year of physics, I can see his is changing his mind. You can't go wrong with statistic or independent reaserch. However, I will not have her lock down in one field this early

[Kerileanne99]

I don't know if you are familiar with The Herp Project run out of the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, but they offer a scientific endeavors camp and fieldwork for grades 8-12. The camp is a weeklong, and free to participants selected. It is set in 360 acres of wetlands and the students get to pair with field biologists to study all amphibians and reptiles living there.

That being said, they may well be open to including a much younger, exceptionally gifted child intent upon her course of study. Providing mom went too, of course.

It may well be too late for this year, camp starts July 14th, but it might be of great benefit to contact the prof in charge. You then have the next year to convince them:)

Worst case, they might have some further ideas?

 

http://www.camprockfish.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=223&Itemid=229

 

Also, here is the contact for the project itself:

theherpproject@uncg.edu