Pre-Algebra and ADHD/Aspergers

[Jennefer@SSA]

My son is about to be 12 in 2 weeks and has finished all 6 levels of Horizons math as of January. We started MUS Algebra as a pre-Algebra after lots of research and talking with other moms. I knew he was a bit young but my plan was just to do 1/2 a lesson each day and just take our time. In MUS Algebra the first several lessons are review of Horizons so I felt really good about that. It just looks a bit different since it is a new program yet it's the same material. BUT Ds is struggling mightily. I think it's more an ADHD issue than anything. In each problem there are so many steps and things that he has to think about that inevitable he will forget something along the way and miss it. We are just on lesson 5 (In MUS each lesson has an A, B, C, D, E and H page) and on almost every page (except graphing) he gets only one or two right. I am also wondering if he has just always learned WHAT to do and not WHY it was done. He makes mistakes that just don't make sense very often. If he understood WHY each step was taken then it seems like it would be more logical. He loves things that are logical. Algebra should be right up his alley. :001_smile:

 

Can an ADHD kiddo do Algebra is what I am asking myself. Or is it a developmental issue b/c he is a bit young? (I took Algebra 1 in 8th grade when I was in school.) Or both? Where do I go from here. I know I have several options:

 

1. We only have 5 weeks left in our school year. Drop math for these last few weeks and give him the summer to mature a bit and start again.

2. Go backwards and re-do a few levels of MUS or another program. Decimals, percentages (word problems using them mostly) and negative numbers still are giving him some trouble. He also still doesn't have his multiplication facts down pat. I'm not sure he will since we have worked really, really hard here. He can get the right answer but he uses skip counting rather than immediate recall.

3. Keep plugging along but just do each problem together on our white board and once he gets it correct then redo it onto the lesson.

4. Another idea I haven't even thought to consider??

 

I don't want this child to hate math. He is discouraged right now. He is very intelligent but processes things very, very slowly in math. He always has. Even in Horizons a typical lesson took him well over an hour, even in lower levels. He made all A's until about Horizons 4 and he began to struggle with longer problems like long division and multiplication. Multi-step problems kick his tail (his words ;). He will forget to carry a one or will add incorrectly or make some other small silly error. He still was a solid B student and I knew it was almost always careless errors caused from struggling with attention to detail and not a lack of understanding. And now increase that three or four fold in Algebra when there are even more things to remember per problem.

 

Ex. -4(-2A+5)-10A = 0 In this problem he has to apply the distributive property and multiply everything in parentheses by -4. Then he has to remember that a negative x a negative is a positive and a negative x a positive is a negative. Then he has to combine like terms. Then get the variable by itself and moving adding 20 to both sides of the equation. Then divide by negative 2 (he is almost sure to forget it's -2 and will divide by 2). Now what is a positive divided by a negative? Then finally arrive at an answer.

 

So I realize I am rambling but I would love BTDT advice. I am not sure where to go or what to do to help him. Yesterday I just broke down in tears (away from him) b/c I have taught him the same thing so many times and he was still missing it that I got completely overwhelmed.

[Starr]

I am not a math expert but I do really well with teaching basic math. One of my children was fine with Algebra, the other not so much. Between the add and slow processing we got no where fast. Finally at 16 we tried again with TT, success! I don't know if it's maturity (he is much more diligent about school work this year) the ability to read and listen to the instructions at the same time or what. Also just because they have finished the basic math doesn't mean they can execute it quickly and accurately. I remember now. We used Lials Basic College Math before starting Algebra for reinforcement. This is rambling sorry. I would do another year with basic math before moving on to Pre-Algebra. The book that says *College* on the front worked for us.

[PeterPan]

You might go back and do Hands-on Equations first, actually using the manipulatives. My dd was telling me recently she thinks in terms of those manipulatives when she does her math. They have an app now, but I *think* I would probably still defer to using the manips.

[Alira]

Some of this might be ADHD or developmental, but I think the biggest issue is that he does not have the math background to tackle algebra. MUS is a lighter algebra program, but I would only use it for pre-algebra with a very strong math student. Have you tried the MUS placement tests? If he's scoring high enough to place into algebra, I would look at which problems he's struggling with and spend the rest of the year working on those topics. If he places into a lower level of MUS, just work up from there. There's no rush to get to algebra! Even if he spends a year solidifying basic math and a year on pre-algebra, he'll still be in great shape.

[Dmmetler]

Would he like LoF? The Decimals and Percents book might be good "summer math". The Key to Series might also be good for the summer.

[geodob]

Perhaps you could help him to understand algebraic thinking?

Algebraic thinking is a thinking process that extends beyond math.

While logical deductive thinking involves thinking through something to arrive at an answer.

Algebraic thinking starts with the answer, and then we need to think back and work out how we arrived at the answer?

 

Where the critical factor, is the introduction of the concept of 'variables'?

In a logical deductive process, their is no potential for variables. 6+3-2=7.

But with algebraic thinking, we explore how we can arrive at the answer of 7, as the outcome.

Which gives meaning to the variables.

But algebraic thinking is a thinking process that extends beyond numbers?

Where we can take any any outcome, and then identify the variables that were used to arrive at the outcome.

From a position of understanding the variables, we can then explore changes, that will still arrive at the same outcome?

Which is the foundation of innovation.

[Jennefer@SSA]

I am not a math expert but I do really well with teaching basic math. One of my children was fine with Algebra, the other not so much. Between the add and slow processing we got no where fast. Finally at 16 we tried again with TT, success! I don't know if it's maturity (he is much more diligent about school work this year) the ability to read and listen to the instructions at the same time or what. Also just because they have finished the basic math doesn't mean they can execute it quickly and accurately. I remember now. We used Lials Basic College Math before starting Algebra for reinforcement. This is rambling sorry. I would do another year with basic math before moving on to Pre-Algebra. The book that says *College* on the front worked for us.

 

Thank you for the suggestion of Lials Basic College Math. I was not aware of that program.

It is now on my list of things to research.

 

You might go back and do Hands-on Equations first, actually using the manipulatives. My dd was telling me recently she thinks in terms of those manipulatives when she does her math. They have an app now, but I *think* I would probably still defer to using the manips.

 

Another program for me to look into. I am so thankful I posted this. I really think that more work with manipulatives might help him.

 

Some of this might be ADHD or developmental, but I think the biggest issue is that he does not have the math background to tackle algebra. MUS is a lighter algebra program, but I would only use it for pre-algebra with a very strong math student. Have you tried the MUS placement tests? If he's scoring high enough to place into algebra, I would look at which problems he's struggling with and spend the rest of the year working on those topics. If he places into a lower level of MUS, just work up from there. There's no rush to get to algebra! Even if he spends a year solidifying basic math and a year on pre-algebra, he'll still be in great shape.

 

Yes, I am convinced we need more time getting that foundation firm! He did pass the placement test for Algebra so that is part of what has thrown me for a loop but looking back it took him a very long time to complete it. I am never quite sure when that happens if it is a lack of understanding or distraction or just slow processing that causes him to work slowly. In hindsight I can see that it was most likely that he knew enough to pass but it took him forever because his skills are not solid.

 

Would he like LoF? The Decimals and Percents book might be good "summer math". The Key to Series might also be good for the summer.

 

I will look into LoF. One of my friends uses it with her 13yo but I don't know all that much about this program. Thanks!

 

Perhaps you could help him to understand algebraic thinking?

Algebraic thinking is a thinking process that extends beyond math.

While logical deductive thinking involves thinking through something to arrive at an answer.

Algebraic thinking starts with the answer, and then we need to think back and work out how we arrived at the answer?

 

Where the critical factor, is the introduction of the concept of 'variables'?

In a logical deductive process, their is no potential for variables. 6+3-2=7.

But with algebraic thinking, we explore how we can arrive at the answer of 7, as the outcome.

Which gives meaning to the variables.

But algebraic thinking is a thinking process that extends beyond numbers?

Where we can take any any outcome, and then identify the variables that were used to arrive at the outcome.

From a position of understanding the variables, we can then explore changes, that will still arrive at the same outcome?

Which is the foundation of innovation.

 

Gosh! I wish you would have been my math teacher growing up. ;) No one ever explained algebraic thinking to me in that way and I certainly wouldn't have come up with it on my own. He is such a logical thinker that I think he will think it's exciting to think about math in these terms. Thanks!

[ktgrok]

I can tell you what works for my son, who also had ADHD and Aspergers. He needs a lot of review, probably because of the ADHD/working memory issues. He needs CLEAR directions. And he needs help to stay on task. The solution has been TT Prealgebra. It has been a MIRACLE worker. I cannot stress enough how much this has changed our homeschool and our lives. Seriously.

 

One of the best parts is during the lecture it will ask a question, and stop until he puts an answer in. So he can't just daydream though the whole thing. Then there are practice problems that are not graded, so if he struggles he can ask for help before he gets to the graded part. Anytime he doesn't know how to do it he can click on a button and the program will show him exactly how to work through the problem.

 

The other huge help is the constant constant constant review, so he can't forget how to do stuff. He doesn't LIKE all the review of "easy" stuff, but he knows he needs it. He's getting high B's on the tests and A's on the homework. His mistakes on the test are almost all careless mistakes. He GETS the material now. He was failing the previous program we used.

 

I'd get it, and do a few lessons before the year ends. It will probably be easy for the first few lessons, so you will end on a high note, leaving him feeling confident.

 

Oh, you don't need the workbooks, just the DVD's. Get the 2.0 version, it's self grading. That is perfect, as it takes out any drama and argument about the answers. (helfpul with an Aspie).

[PeterPan]

I can tell you what works for my son, who also had ADHD and Aspergers. He needs a lot of review, probably because of the ADHD/working memory issues. He needs CLEAR directions. And he needs help to stay on task. The solution has been TT Prealgebra. It has been a MIRACLE worker. I cannot stress enough how much this has changed our homeschool and our lives. Seriously.

 

 

I just love converts... :D

 

I agree that jumping right into a light Algebra 1 course can do some kids a disservice. I looked over MUS at the convention last week, and I was surprised that this had become sort of general advice on the boards. It might work really well for some kids, especially kids coming from Horizons (where they've been dribbled bits of paper-only algebra all along), but it could be disastrous for other kids. If you like HOE, you could do it either before or with the TT pre-algebra. For my dd the TT pre-algebra was a great way to build confidence and get faster. As you say, if the boy was really slow on the placement test, then that means it's a slog. Slog is no fun. Lial's BCM is a 7th grade level text that *some* kids are able to do and go straight into Algebra. Lial also has a pre-algebra. Despite the profuse advise that pre-algebra is skippable, for some kids it's NOT. It's a developmental thing maybe? Some kids really benefit from time to get confident, time with hands-on, and time to mature.

 

It's ok to buy a lot of different things trying to sort this out. I bought a TON of different curricula before I landed on stuff that could work for us. This is a new stage. You had that consistency for your elementary sequence, and now you're starting over. It's like doing K5 or 1st again, with all that insecurity of figuring out how they think through the topic. :) That's OK.

 

And just waving to ktgrok, want my newest tip? I finally bought Analytical Grammar, the thing I SHOULD have bought at the beginning of the year. :D

[ktgrok]

Darn you Ohelizabeth! I've looked at Analytical Grammar half a dozen times at least! Let me know how it goes.

[PeterPan]

Darn you Ohelizabeth! I've looked at Analytical Grammar half a dozen times at least! Let me know how it goes.

LOL, why do you think I mentioned it? :D

 

Seriously, I've looked at AG for YEARS, and I just never had the sense that it was quite right for her. (Actually it was that I would have had to teach her, that she wouldn't have been using it independently the way they intended, and I didn't want to teach it.) Now it's just right. Sure it's only day 2, but the child picks it up happily, is doing the assignment, and well that's good enough for me.

 

Our goal is to use it diligently and be done with it by fall. Then we'll go into the reinforcement books. She likes the themes on them. So if you want to know how it goes, bug me via pm in a few months.

[AngieW in Texas]

MUS Algebra I is NOT a prealgebra course. It doesn't go as deep as a typical algebra course, but it is much more than prealgebra. The Key to Algebra workbooks are also a light algebra course rather than a prealgebra course.

 

I did MUS Algebra I with my math struggler starting in 8th grade because she was sick to death of fractions, decimals, percents which we had been focusing on for all of 6th and 7th grades. In those two years, she did the Key to workbooks for fractions/decimals/percents (F/D/P), Math Mammoth worksheets on F/D/P, and MUS Prealgebra. She also tried Lial's Basic College Mathematics (which was very visually overwhelming for her).

 

We took it slow through Algebra I and completed it in about 16 months (we work through the summer). She is working through MUS Geometry now and that has gone much smoother.

 

Your ds is only almost 12yo and has struggled with math. I would not place him any higher than prealgebra. I would have him do placement tests in either MUS or TT to see what level he should do.