Do colleges insist on math all 4 years of high school?

[Susan in TN]

Our umbrella program recommends 4 math credits for college prep (ds will have Alg. 1 & 2, geometry, and pre-calc in grades 8-11) but also cautions that colleges may want to see that math was taken all 4 years of high school.

 

I'm just wondering if you have found that to be the case?

[Jane in NC]

The UNC system requires applicants to have four years of math, minimally Alg I, Geometry, Alg II and a course beyond Alg II (Precalc, Statistics, etc.) This seems to be fairly standard at many of the colleges to which my son applied. (Note: minimal requirements are not necessarily ideal!)

 

Many college bound students are taking Algebra I in 8th. Some parents include this on their student's high school transcript. My son had four years of math beyond Alg I (Geometry in 9th, Algebra II/Trig in 10th, Precalc in 11th and Calculus in 12th). It was obvious that he had had Alg I previously so I did not mention it on the transcript.

 

In general colleges want to see students take challenging course work in high school. A good four by four plan includes four years of English, History, Science and Math. Students should also have at least two years of foreign language although I think that competitive programs want to see more. If I were you, I would check out websites for your state unis to see what they are requiring for applicants. This is a starting point since your students may be applying to other schools as well but flagship schools often set basic standards within a state or region.

[creekland]

Our (public) school requires 4 years of math in high school to graduate. If Alg 1 was taken before high school, it doesn't count.

 

Colleges can (and do) vary considerably with what they want AND it can vary by major desired too. If you want to keep your options open, I'd do 4 years of math in high school. If you're pretty certain about where you're interested in - and see that they don't care at all - then I might choose otherwise (pending how certain I felt "pretty certain" was).

 

Minimum requirements often don't apply to competitive schools and/or majors UNLESS you have a significant hook from something else. The vast majority of applicants will exceed the minimum in these situations.

[Nicole M]

My oldest did not take four years, and he was still accepted into his first choice colleges. It did turn out to be a bit of a problem, though, because he ended up needing to take calculus at his college, and by the time he was able to fit it into his schedule, it had been almost two years since he'd had any math at all. It was... a challenge. Let's just say he took full advantage of every study and tutoring session available. If we could have a do-over, I would have had him take that requirement at the CC where he took some classes as a HS student.

 

So, yes, depends on the school and what your overall goals are.

[Barbara H]

It is now the law in my state that all public school students have math every year high school and that's true even for students who started algebra 1 in 7th grade. I do advise most students that they have math every year in high school, even if they aren't aiming at highly selective colleges it has become more the norm.

[Nicole M]

It is now the law in my state that all public school students have math every year high school and that's true even for students who started algebra 1 in 7th grade. I do advise most students that they have math every year in high school, even if they aren't aiming at highly selective colleges it has become more the norm.

 

My state is moving in that direction, too. A friend of mine works for the state department of education here, and when we were deciding on math requirements, the politicians had done all this research about what other states were requiring, all *seemingly* more rigorous, but until my friend's math teacher buddy stood up to ask the question "And how's that working for them?" no one had even thought to ask about the efficacy or effects of those requirements. More just seems better. I guess.

[Barbara H]

I see requiring math all four years for public school to be a mixed bag. We had a problem before the law that some rural districts did not offer calculus so bright kids who had been tracked earlier in math were left without options. So, the idea that any student who wants math for all four years if guarenteed access is a positive. But, at the same time I think the idea that every student can or should get through algebra 2 is problematic - some kids just really struggle at that point.

 

While it is more and more the expectation at selective schools that students will have calculus, another option to consider for senior year is statistics. There is a lot of lifelong value in understanding statistics.

[Susan in TN]

Huh. Well, as much as ds would despise having to take more math, maybe we should/could find something for him that's less stressful than calculus. He's actually good in math, so maybe a semester of something at the community college? Barbara, I see you've mentioned statistics - maybe that would be an option?

[AK_Mom4]

Statistics is an excellent option for that 4th year of math. As is Number Theory or Probability courses.

 

DS17 and I were looking at college web sites over the weekend. All of them required 4 years of high school math for STEM majors. However, DD19 only needed 3 years as a music major, so it depends on the college and what you are studying.

[MorningGlory]

Our umbrella program recommends 4 math credits for college prep (ds will have Alg. 1 & 2, geometry, and pre-calc in grades 8-11) but also cautions that colleges may want to see that math was taken all 4 years of high school.

 

I'm just wondering if you have found that to be the case?

 

 

Susan, if you are still in TN, our state recently passed a state law dictating 4 maths required for graduation...with all 4 being taken during the 4 high school years. In other words, math has become the new English. You have to take it every year to receive a real TN diploma (which is what my cover school offers).

 

This has been a real eye-opener for some of my irl friends. Yes, our kids can still take Algebra I in 8th for credit, but then they will still need 4 MORE math credits in high school. So after the typical geometry, algebra II, precalc or advanced math course, the student must decide what to do. If you google "math in tennessee" or the like, you will find lots of ideas. Many will take calculus. Others will take statistics, finite math, or some course called "bridge math" (not to be confused with the Spectrum Chemistry math intro course). And dual enrollment with college algebra or the like is a great option for that 4th math. The state requirement for the final 4th math depends on the student's math subscore on the ACT (below a 19 allows the student to take an easier 4th math like the "bridge" math...whatever that is).

 

If the student does NOT take Algebra I in 8th, then there isn't as much of a problem with coming up with 4 maths.

HTH! My irl friend has researched this a lot, so I can probably answer any questions you have about this law in Tennessee.

[Susan in TN]

 

Susan, if you are still in TN, our state recently passed a state law dictating 4 maths required for graduation...with all 4 being taken during the 4 high school years. In other words, math has become the new English. You have to take it every year to receive a real TN diploma (which is what my cover school offers).

 

 

 

Thank you! What I read from our umbrella school was a little unclear.

 

Thanks also for the other math ideas. I'd been assuming that calculus was a prerequisite for taking other higher math courses, but it looks like we have more options than I thought. Or, ds might have a change of heart and want to try calculus :).

[kiana]

Statistics would be a GREAT option for a 4th year. Frankly I think that actually understanding how statistics work is essential for scientific literacy in today's world. If he took it at the community college, he would get a credit that might allow him to not take math in college. Maybe he would be more enthusiastic about it if he looked at it that way?

[Caroline]

Most high schools in my area offer multivariable calculus. If they do not, students can dual enroll at Georgia Tech to take Calc II and III through the distance calculus program. Also most school offer AP Statistics, which can be taken as a fourth math.

 

What are the options for 12th? Are they working with nearby colleges to offer DiffEq, using magnets, or ??

 

[creekland]

What are the options for 12th? Are they working with nearby colleges to offer DiffEq, using magnets, or ??

 

 

Our school also requires 4 years in high school and starts top kids in Alg 1 in 7th. The only options they have are Calc 1, Stats, or College Alg. All of these are DE classes, but taught in the high school. It's not many, but there are always options. Alg 1 in 8th is normal. If a student were to take it in 9th grade at our school they'd be in the lower groups for math - not so great on college apps.

[QueenCat]

 

Susan, if you are still in TN, our state recently passed a state law dictating 4 maths required for graduation...with all 4 being taken during the 4 high school years. In other words, math has become the new English. You have to take it every year to receive a real TN diploma (which is what my cover school offers).

 

 

 

Sort of.... TN does not have a state issued diploma. They approve category 4 schools (cover schools), and their diploma meet TN graduation requirements. But the diplomas are not TN diplomas. Diplomas in TN are issued by the school, not the state, be it a public or private (any category level) school. For example, ds' diploma is issued by HomeLife Academy. I just looked at it to double check. No where on it is the state of TN mentioned but HomeLife Academy is on TN's list of approved cover schools.

[Caroline]

Thanks, I'll take a look at that.

 

Around here everything is DE after Alg2; stats is not offered, top course is Calc 2. I'm looking for a distance calc program and Diff Eq that is suitable for STEM, as the DE courses are not looked upon favorably by the more selective colleges - Cornell for example specifically states 'DE math taken in a high school setting is not accepted for credit'. My other alternative is the local state U, should they offer a section that meets at a suitable time and waive the age pre-req.

 

ETA: the restrictions on GA Tech's program are scary. No visa holders, etc. What do the children of visiting scientists/engineers do?

 

Visiting scientists/engineers wouldn't be on a B-1, B-2 or F-2 visa. They would be on different types of visas. The restriction is actually a state law, not a GA Tech rule.

[MorningGlory]

 

Sort of.... TN does not have a state issued diploma. They approve category 4 schools (cover schools), and their diploma meet TN graduation requirements. But the diplomas are not TN diplomas. Diplomas in TN are issued by the school, not the state, be it a public or private (any category level) school. For example, ds' diploma is issued by HomeLife Academy. I just looked at it to double check. No where on it is the state of TN mentioned but HomeLife Academy is on TN's list of approved cover schools.

 

 

Ahhh! Interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. I've yet to have a diploma issued in our homeschool...but I sure am looking forward to the day! :)

 

My cover school is a category 2 school. Do you think that makes a difference in the diploma requirements? My cover school *requires* 4 years of math in high school...because that is what TN's education department requires, but Susan's cover school only *recommends* 4 years. Do you think that the Cat 4 schools can adjust the requirements for their students? This information could really help me make recommendations on which cover schools are the best fit for different families.

[QueenCat]

 

Ahhh! Interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. I've yet to have a diploma issued in our homeschool...but I sure am looking forward to the day! :)

 

My cover school is a category 2 school. Do you think that makes a difference in the diploma requirements? My cover school *requires* 4 years of math in high school...because that is what TN's education department requires, but Susan's cover school only *recommends* 4 years. Do you think that the Cat 4 schools can adjust the requirements for their students? This information could really help me make recommendations on which cover schools are the best fit for different families.

 

 

I didn't know there were any category 2 schools that served as covers. Are you sure it's a category 2? Category 2 schools are normally private schools that actually meet at a campus. Homeschool options 1-4 are different than what category a school is designated as.... Option 2 is a homeschool that is associated with a "church related school" aka "umbrella". I used to get the two (category and options) mixed up.Took me forever to really realize they are two different things. Categories refer to all schools, not just homeschooling related....

 

HomeLife Academy is the one I am most familiar with. It is an Option 4 school. It's college prep diploma requirements aligned with what most TN public colleges required for admissions rather than what TN public high schools required for high school graduation. I can tell you that we've had no issues with admissions or getting the Hope scholarship or other merit based scholarships with the diploma from HLA.

[MorningGlory]

I didn't know there were any category 2 schools that served as covers. Are you sure it's a category 2? Category 2 schools are normally private schools that actually meet at a campus.

 

Yes, it is a brick and mortar private school with a homeschooling arm. It is accredited as a Cat 2 school through TANAS (TN Association of Non-Public Academic Schools...which is a state-approved accrediting agency). So this might explain why my cover school requires the same credits as TN public schools. I have complained about this in another thread, but I've been with this school too long to change. Plus, I think the brick and mortar campus has its benefits (if you can overlook the stringent requirements).

 

I can tell you that we've had no issues with admissions or getting the Hope scholarship or other merit based scholarships with the diploma from HLA.

 

This is very good to know. Most of my irl friends homeschool through either HLA or Gateway, and these 2 cover schools are what I will continue to recommend as appropriate for most new homeschooling families.

Thanks!

[Gwen in VA]

Cornell for example specifically states 'DE math taken in a high school setting is not accepted for credit'.

 

I have seen this phrase in some college statements about transfer credit. Like the poster, I thought that that meant that DE math taken by a high schooler is not accepted for credit, but my son looked at that and interpreted it differently --

 

Apparently some high schools (our local ones among them) hire "CC profs" to come in and teach DE classes AT the high school. And what is the difference between that class and a normal advanced high school one at that point?

 

So the restriction may not be on DE math taken in high school but on DE classes taken literally AT the high school.

 

More research is needed, but we won't bump into this issue until dd2 is dealing with college acceptances next spring, so I'm 11 months away from doing this homework.

[creekland]

I have seen this phrase in some college statements about transfer credit. Like the poster, I thought that that meant that DE math taken by a high schooler is not accepted for credit, but my son looked at that and interpreted it differently --

 

Apparently some high schools (our local ones among them) hire "CC profs" to come in and teach DE classes AT the high school. And what is the difference between that class and a normal advanced high school one at that point?

 

So the restriction may not be on DE math taken in high school but on DE classes taken literally AT the high school.

 

More research is needed, but we won't bump into this issue until dd2 is dealing with college acceptances next spring, so I'm 11 months away from doing this homework.

 

 

It does mean taken AT the high school and my school could be the poster child as to why. At our school the teacher is the same one who teaches other high school classes (but is a CC or 4 Year prof for these classes). Classes are limited to high school students. The teacher decides the grades/credit... Kids who never could score more than a 2 on the equivalent AP test get As or Bs. Their knowledge isn't different - the grading scale is. It makes it more unreliable (foundational knowledge-wise) than other courses.

 

However, there are also still schools who won't accept any DE credit. Middle son got no credit for his DE classes and they were taken at the CC. I don't mind - just mentioning it.

[kiana]

A DE class taught in the high school with the high school rules (which often include rubbish that basically adds up to not allowing the student to fail, like having assignments have a minimum grade of 55 etc. -- btw I'm NOT blaming the teachers for this sort of rubbish, most of the ones I know hate those rules as much as I do) is going to be different than one taught at the university.

 

It is much easier for an excellent university like Cornell to have a blanket ban than to have unprepared students coming into their advanced courses. If a student really did learn calculus in their DE course at the high school, the best option would be to go to the department and see if they will let the student take an exam to get credit or at least placement.

 

When I went to university, I looked at the syllabus for chemistry I, and I said 'This is ridiculous. My mother covered all of this in much greater detail.' So I went to the department and said 'I looked at your chemistry I syllabus, and it really looks the same as my high school course. Is there any way to test out of it?' They let me show up and take the final, and when I got an A on the final they recorded me as having taken the class and gotten an A. They did not have a placeout test because they only had people ask every few years (and most of the people who tried failed), but the option was there if specifically looked for.

[QueenCat]

Yes, it is a brick and mortar private school with a homeschooling arm. It is accredited as a Cat 2 school through TANAS (TN Association of Non-Public Academic Schools...which is a state-approved accrediting agency). So this might explain why my cover school requires the same credits as TN public schools. I have complained about this in another thread, but I've been with this school too long to change. Plus, I think the brick and mortar campus has its benefits (if you can overlook the stringent requirements).

 

 

 

I didn't realize there were covers like that. I know of some that meet once or twice a week (like Aaron Academy) but didn't know there were any that were full fledged schools with homeschooling arms.

[creekland]

I have a nephew who is taking the same math course on the CC campus as my child is on the high school campus. The only difference is that one has the class 5x/week, the other 1x/week. There is no difference in the grading practice. If anything, the caliber of student is better at the high school,since it contains students who are in Calculus for the first time prior to the second year of CC. The course itself is too lite for STEM.

 

 

And this comparison to mine a PP above shows why many colleges have taken the blanket approach to not allowing credit from these courses - they just don't know the content covered. Sure, they could look at a syllabus, but even then, how much depth a class goes into for the same topic often varies.

 

If one is certain their course was adequate (or even good), I'd be checking with the department about testing out.

 

In general, I don't blame the schools where they just say no (to DE at the high school or transfer credits in general). There's way too much variability unless they know the school (and the prof) themselves or do their own testing. AP at least provides a common test.

[Susan in TN]

 

 

Apparently some high schools (our local ones among them) hire "CC profs" to come in and teach DE classes AT the high school. And what is the difference between that class and a normal advanced high school one at that point?

 

So the restriction may not be on DE math taken in high school but on DE classes taken literally AT the high school.

 

 

My take on this is that a "regular" DE class requires that a high school student actually apply and enroll at the CC, take any required admissions/placement tests, get a student i.d. card, parking permit, etc. At least, this is what my ds had to do for his CC class. I wonder if the "DE classes taken AT the high school" require any of this?

[kiana]

I have a nephew who is taking the same math course on the CC campus as my child is on the high school campus. The only difference is that one has the class 5x/week, the other 1x/week. There is no difference in the grading practice. If anything, the caliber of student is better at the high school,since it contains students who are in Calculus for the first time prior to the second year of CC. The course itself is too lite for STEM.

 

I am not saying that ALL courses are inferior, just that enough are to make allowing credit problematic without a test.

[creekland]

My take on this is that a "regular" DE class requires that a high school student actually apply and enroll at the CC, take any required admissions/placement tests, get a student i.d. card, parking permit, etc. At least, this is what my ds had to do for his CC class. I wonder if the "DE classes taken AT the high school" require any of this?

 

Our does - except for the parking pass. All students taking them for credit had to get acceptance by taking the placement test just like my older kids did to take classes on campus.

[Caroline]

To take the Georgia Tech distance calc class mentioned above, a student needs to apply for admission. The admission criteria is the same as getting into the university, although being accepted into the DC program does not guarantee admission to the university. Students also need a 4 or 5 on the AP Calculus AB Exam, so that is kind of like a placement exam. Students don't have to get a parking permit (very costly at GT) because they never have to go to campus. (They are welcome to go to campus for the class, though, if they can. Many students will go duing the high school's spring break.) I am not sure about a student ID card.

 

My take on this is that a "regular" DE class requires that a high school student actually apply and enroll at the CC, take any required admissions/placement tests, get a student i.d. card, parking permit, etc. At least, this is what my ds had to do for his CC class. I wonder if the "DE classes taken AT the high school" require any of this?