Can we have a civil conversation about Catholicism?

[Aelwydd]

My initial reaction to the thread title is no, in itself without reading any posts. I've read a bit too much Catholic bashing on here as of late and I'm rather tired of it.

 

 

If this is to say you did not mean the post in a snarky way, then I apologize. For myself, I'm tired of the personal attacks made on those who do not accept the RCC's response to the rape of children under its protection as adequate. I'm tired of hearing how the RCC is really no different from any other organization when it comes to having problems of this nature, and yet, it speaks out of the other side of its mouth when it claims to be the divinely ordained repository of the fullness of the faith and God's Apostolic Succession.

 

Either the Church is special and called apart, or she is not.

 

It's said that RCC should not be held to a higher standard; after all, it's really only a small segment who are evil, is what I am told. And yet, it's the young teen who is raped by a priest, and made pregnant, and aborts who is the one excommunicated automatically--while the other is merely hid away, or even sent to another diocese. His crime is less odious, apparently, than hers.

 

The RCC likes to throw judgments around about Western society being "the culture of death," but when I see certain of her bishops and cardinals choosing to save their own pride and reputation, as an organization, over protection of the innocents, it is like the clanging of symbols. The RCC needs to make right her own house before judging those outside her great halls.

 

And then I see the RCC hiding the Pope away, rather than letting him face the storm engendered by the very system of tiered and hierarchal submission that breeds such fertile ground for the those bent upon the ultimate subjugation--the rape of a child. I note that Jesus chose to face the punishment for Church's sin, Himself, rather than choose retirement with diplomatic immunity as the Son of God.

 

Is the Pope not the Vicar of Christ? Then let him satisfy justice and fulfill the responsibility that SHOULD go along with his power. How am I to ignore that failure? Why should the Pope be protected? If he had accepted responsibility, even to possible legal trial, then he would be doing nothing more than Christ did when He was arrested and tried by the Romans. Benedict would have done much to restore honor to the RCC by following Jesus' example, and suffering for the sake of the Church.

 

 

Like calls to like, and no, the RCC is not the only institution with this problem. It's just an exceedingly well-adapted authoritarian environment for controlling, abusive types who could, at least until recently, count on a very complex system to "get lost" or "hidden in" with the help of a bishop.

 

If that makes you angry, then be angry. Then it'll make two of us. I'm angry because I do believe that the RCC has received a divine gift of truth, and that from the Church flows the many mysteries of the faith. I believe her Sacraments are a healing and a ministry.

 

I'm beyond furious though that, as Jesus predicted, the tares have grown unchecked among the wheat; but instead of removing the tares and casting them without mercy into the flames of judgment, the ones being judged are those demanding justice on behalf of the victims.

 

"You are attacking us! You are attacking the Pope! You hate the Church!"

 

Wrong. Even as a non-Catholic, I still have a stake in the Church, in her history and traditions. I have a care about Catholics, my fellow Christians, many whose personal faith is being rocked by these scandals. And I desire to see example of Christ personified in the Church's leadership.

 

You can either accept that or just dismiss me, as I'm sure several others will do, as a "basher." I don't care whether or not you find value in my motives. You will answer to your conscience as I answer to mine.

 

What I care about is that people out there who are either victims of this scandal, or non-RCCers who are watching, understand that there are those of us who can find value in the RCC and yet be willing drive the "money changers"--in this case, those who steal the faith of others in the house of God--out of the temple.

[nono]

In any case, it doesn't seem to me that the Catholics on this thread, or the ones I know in real life, are in any kind of denial about this. We know that there are serious sins and likely crimes that involve high-ranking members of the Church. This hurts us more than anyone here, because the Church is our own family. But as Michelle pointed out, these problems are being addressed -- maybe not as some observers would like, but in ways that are providing a positive example for other groups. (I'm not making this up; the secular media has quoted many non-Catholics to this effect.)

 

And more importantly, these things don't define us.

 

No but it is abhorrent enough that 75% of the folks who I know to have been "severely Catholic" :D to no longer feel comfortable within the Church. That's a mighty fine mess in which the Church has left us! To be complicit with them?? Is that our only choice? So many standing out in the field...just waiting... And then an Archdiocese like Philadelphia, puts all the right moves on its website...looks good. What does the new Cardinal do? Have a convocation dinner where DEFROCKED priests, not just "moved around" possibly guilty folks, are invited. This is cool? And OK? Really? Two of the defrocked I knew personally. Personally. They are at a Catholic priests of the Archdiocese dinner? Still a loooonnnggg way to go.

[justamouse]

 

What I care about is that people out there who are either victims of this scandal, or non-RCCers who are watching, understand that there are those of us who can find value in the RCC and yet be willing drive the "money changers"--in this case, those who steal the faith of others in the house of God--out of the temple.

 

 

I think that has slowly been happening, and will be happening. I know our own diocese has background checks run on all teachers in every parish, and mandatory abuse training.

 

We also just got a pope who seems to be amazing, and a reformer.

 

There are over 1 billion Catholics. That's a lot of cats to herd.

[Aelwydd]

 

I think that has slowly been happening, and will be happening. I know our own diocese has background checks run on all teachers in every parish, and mandatory abuse training.

 

We also just got a pope who seems to be amazing, and a reformer.

 

There are over 1 billion Catholics. That's a lot of cats to herd.

 

And most of them are decent human beings doing the best they can. I "hear" you, and I hope my anger and hurt hasn't caused more wounds to Catholics here.

 

It's not the average Catholic, or my local parish priest I am angry with. I am cautiously hopeful about Pope Francis, not the least of which because he is a Jesuit, and has lived a humble life. He loves the poor. He rejects the materialistic view so prevalent. He is a champion of education. And he seems a genuinely kind person. Even though others have, he has not yet referred to himself as Francis I--Francis Primus--even though he is the first to take that name.

[ElizaG]

I'm tired of hearing how the RCC is really no different from any other organization when it comes to having problems of this nature, and yet, it speaks out of the other side of its mouth when it claims to be the divinely ordained repository of the fullness of the faith and God's Apostolic Succession.

I think it's this sort of phrasing that people are having a problem with.

 

Anyway... this, and albeto's last post, seem to be getting at the central issue that, as Catholics, we believe that the Church is the spotless Bride of Christ, but also that it's made up of a bunch of human beings who are more or less sinful. This is one of the most common objections that people have to the Catholic faith, and some Protestant denominations have changed their ecclesiology because they found this teaching objectionable, so I can understand if some here have a hard time with it. Without faith, we wouldn't be able to grasp it ourselves, as it's a mystery, or paradox -- and the Orthodox would probably leave it at that -- but if anyone wants to get into the theological understanding that we in the West have developed, you might start with the CCC, or the encyclical "Mystici Corporis," or the writings of St. Robert Bellarmine (e.g. here). Or you could ask on the boards at Catholic-Convert.com; there are a lot of very knowledgeable people there.

[Aelwydd]

 

I think it's this sort of phrasing that people are having a problem with.

 

Anyway... this, and albeto's last post, seem to be getting at the central issue that, as Catholics, we believe that the Church is the spotless Bride of Christ, but also that it's made up of a bunch of human beings who are more or less sinful. This is one of the most common objections that people have to the Catholic faith, and some Protestant denominations have changed their ecclesiology because they found this teaching objectionable, so I can understand if some here have a hard time with it. Without faith, we wouldn't be able to grasp it ourselves, as it's a mystery, or paradox -- and the Orthodox would probably leave it at that -- but if anyone wants to get into the theological understanding that we in the West have developed, you might start with the CCC, or the encyclical "Mystici Corporis," or the writings of St. Robert Bellarmine (e.g. here). Or you could ask on the boards at Catholic-Convert.com; there are a lot of very knowledgeable people there.

 

Thank you, Eliza, for the recommendation. The whole question of "What IS the Church? HOW is it defined?" is a paradox I enjoy reading about. I will check out both.

[VinNY]

Aelwydd, I thank you for your words and concern for our church. You said you believed our Sacraments are a healing and a ministry. Thank you. You are sharing in our suffering and joining many anguished Catholics that pray for reparation, restitution and healing for all those affected by this scandal. There is no excuse for the way this was handled.

[UrbanSue]

Thank you, Eliza, for the recommendation. The whole question of "What IS the Church? HOW is it defined?" is a paradox I enjoy reading about. I will check out both.

 

 

 

I've mostly lurked the last couple pages of this thread but I just wanted to say that I think your tone has been challenging, but respectful, and I appreciate that. I think most faithful Catholics feel like we've been through the wringer the last few years and, especially, the last few weeks. Our nerves are a bit raw and civil conversation (on anything!) is truly so rare these days. I appreciate your spirit in this conversation and I hope some of what ElizaGrace has said has been helpful as you seek to understand where we're all coming from.

[LMA]

Regardless of how we feel about what is going on, live the Sacraments, go to Confession regularly, receive Holy Eucharist regularly, and teach our children how to live saintly lives to the best of their ability. You can still live the Catholic life without always worrying about what is going on around us inside and outside the Church. Know your Catechism and understand the teachings of the church.

[ElizaG]

Very true, LMA. Imagine, before the radio, telephone, and telegraph were invented, even the news that we had a new pope would take a while to get here.

 

I can't imagine it myself, really. :001_huh: And now I'm a bit worried that I can't. What does that say about my thought processes? Might be time for me to unplug for the rest of Lent.

 

Speaking of speedy media, TAN Books' front page now has an advertisement for an exciting new book about Pope Francis. Well, it's not actually written yet, but it will be really exciting! This is cracking me up. Especially when it says that the author, Thomas Craughwell, "writes out of his home in Bethel, Connecticut." Imagining the scene in the next several weeks in that household... :D

[Teachin'Mine]

The Catholic Church is made up of all of us Catholics. God gave each of us free will. We all sin. Some of the priests have sinned horribly, and the actions of others in response is also horribly sinful and those priests should be removed and not have any opportunity to do any further harm. But they are not the majority of priests. They do not define who we are, or what we believe, as Catholics. We have the fullness of faith both through Sacred Scripture and Tradition as passed down from those who lived with Jesus. There is a miracle at each and every Mass. Jesus gives His Heart to us in both His Body and His Blood. We are also enriched spiritually by the readings and the prayers. The servers, the lectors, the cantors, the choir, the ushers, these are all lay people involved in the Church. We are encouraged to be as involved as we can be in different ministries utilizing our God given talents to help others. But all of us participate in the Church each Mass. We're not spectators merely watching the Mass, we're fully involved in mind, body and spirit. The more we bring to it, the more we get out of it. My Catholic faith is very precious to me and I would be lying if I said it doesn't bother me to read all the trash comments on the internet. No matter how good the news in an article, it often gets mostly negative comments. We have been given an absolute gift in this humble, loving priest from Argentina. Pope Francis believes in bringing the faith to people in the same way Jesus did by being with the poor, and the sinners, and leading by example. I hope that people are able to open their hearts to the message and stop scrutinizing the messengers as we're all sinners. Some are so concerned with seeing changes made in the Church when the most important change any one of us can make is within ourselves. But change is hard. I struggle and fail each and every day, but I keep trying. Just my thoughts.

[WIS0320]

 

Some are so concerned with seeing changes made in the Church when the most important change any one of us can make is within ourselves. But change is hard. I struggle and fail each and every day, but I keep trying. Just my thoughts.

 

 

:iagree:

[PachiSusan]

Pope Francis believes in bringing the faith to people in the same way Jesus did by being with the poor, and the sinners, and leading by example. I hope that people are able to open their hearts to the message and stop scrutinizing the messengers as we're all sinners. Some are so concerned with seeing changes made in the Church when the most important change any one of us can make is within ourselves. But change is hard. I struggle and fail each and every day, but I keep trying. Just my thoughts.

 

 

I just had to quote this. I don't need to say anything further in the thread. This encapsulates my thoughts beautifully.

[ElizaG]

Some more links on the topic of Pope Francis & Eastern Christianity:

 

Patriarch Sviatoslav: Newly elected Pope knows Ukrainian Catholic Church, its Liturgy and Spirituality

 

For the first time since the Great Schism, [Orthodox] ecumenical patriarch to attend pope's inaugural Mass

 

 

The second article links to AsiaNews, which is a Vatican-affiliated news site that I haven't got around to reading in a while. It has some interesting coverage of events throughout Asia, including the Middle East. Worth checking out if you'd like a different perspective. :)

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you for these great links ElizaGrace! Here's another article revealing more about him.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/francis-turns-charm-first-meeting-press-111911747.html

[cathmom]

No but it is abhorrent enough that 75% of the folks who I know to have been "severely Catholic" :D to no longer feel comfortable within the Church. That's a mighty fine mess in which the Church has left us! To be complicit with them?? Is that our only choice? So many standing out in the field...just waiting... And then an Archdiocese like Philadelphia, puts all the right moves on its website...looks good. What does the new Cardinal do? Have a convocation dinner where DEFROCKED priests, not just "moved around" possibly guilty folks, are invited. This is cool? And OK? Really? Two of the defrocked I knew personally. Personally. They are at a Catholic priests of the Archdiocese dinner? Still a loooonnnggg way to go.

 

Nono, do you really mean that 75% of the Catholics you know have left the Church over the scandals? Or am I misreading that?

 

I personally don't know anyone who left the church over it.

[Aelwydd]

Aelwydd, I thank you for your words and concern for our church. You said you believed our Sacraments are a healing and a ministry. Thank you. You are sharing in our suffering and joining many anguished Catholics that pray for reparation, restitution and healing for all those affected by this scandal. There is no excuse for the way this was handled.

 

Thank you for your kindness. "Anguished" is a good word for the feeling we have. We are all anguished over the terrible things done to children. It is the kind of thing that strikes to the heart. Like a spear in the side of the Church.

 

I have differences of opinion in regards to certain dogma and doctrine, and I have issues with the administration.

 

But what I said about her gifts of the Sacraments is true. I believe that these gifts, once given, are eternal. The Mass is the pinpoint of all time and all locations. It draws all hearts together in one endless, timeless moment. That's what I feel when I am in the Mass. I feel it whether it's in the Latin Rite, the Eastern Rite, the Orthodox, or in my own Episcopal Church.

 

Have mercy on us, O Lord.

[FaithManor]

Thank you for your kindness. "Anguished" is a good word for the feeling we have. We are all anguished over the terrible things done to children. It is the kind of thing that strikes to the heart. Like a spear in the side of the Church.

 

I have differences of opinion in regards to certain dogma and doctrine, and I have issues with the administration.

 

But what I said about her gifts of the Sacraments is true. I believe that these gifts, once given, are eternal. The Mass is the pinpoint of all time and all locations. It draws all hearts together in one endless, timeless moment. That's what I feel when I am in the Mass. I feel it whether it's in the Latin Rite, the Eastern Rite, the Orthodox, or in my own Episcopal Church.

 

Have mercy on us, O Lord.

 

Very well stated Aelwydd!

 

My dearest friends in this world are Catholic and their hearts break over what happened at their Catholic School. As their friend as well as Sister in Christ, I pray that Pope Francis will tackle the problem head on, turn abusers over to the authorities, and make "What you have done to the least of these, you have done to me," the hallmark of his leadership. Just like I pray for my own dear pastor, I will pray for him.

 

Faith

[Little Nyssa]

Thank you for the news about the Orthodox patriarch attending!! On a side note, the article says he will be accompanied by metropolitan Ioannis Zizioulas. I would encourage anyone interested in Christian theology to read his Being as Communion-- he is a very deep theologian, a real mind-bender. He especially understands existentialism and can engage with it from within the Christian faith.

[Marylou]

 

Is the Pope not the Vicar of Christ? Then let him satisfy justice and fulfill the responsibility that SHOULD go along with his power. How am I to ignore that failure? Why should the Pope be protected? If he had accepted responsibility, even to possible legal trial, then he would be doing nothing more than Christ did when He was arrested and tried by the Romans. Benedict would have done much to restore honor to the RCC by following Jesus' example, and suffering for the sake of the Church.

 

 

 

 

Christ did not have a legal trial. It was a sham, held in the middle of the night with no two "witnesses" agreeing. Jesus was condemned to death because He claimed to be God, not because he broke any Roman law.

 

Carry on :D

[Elinor Everywhere]

Thank you for your kindness. "Anguished" is a good word for the feeling we have. We are all anguished over the terrible things done to children. It is the kind of thing that strikes to the heart. Like a spear in the side of the Church.

 

I have differences of opinion in regards to certain dogma and doctrine, and I have issues with the administration.

 

But what I said about her gifts of the Sacraments is true. I believe that these gifts, once given, are eternal. The Mass is the pinpoint of all time and all locations. It draws all hearts together in one endless, timeless moment. That's what I feel when I am in the Mass. I feel it whether it's in the Latin Rite, the Eastern Rite, the Orthodox, or in my own Episcopal Church.

 

Have mercy on us, O Lord.

 

 

Love this post. Aelwydd, you have a gift of critical, thoughtful thinking - an ability to discuss without denigrating others. I'm a cradle Catholic-turned non-denominational-turned Anglican, and I, too, feel a kinship with the RCC. As we say each Sunday in the Nicene creed, "I believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church."

[I.Dup.]

People have said things way more beautifully than I can, but as a rather new Catholic (going on 2 years now), the sexual abuse in the Church didn't sway us at all. It is clear there is a huge media bias to just how "widespread" it is, when compared to things like Boy Scouts, schools, teachers, other denominations, and most devastatingly, family members. I don't think we will ever know just how many fathers have molested and raped their own children. Research shows that around 4% of ALL priests between 1950 and 2002 were involved in some sort of sexual scandal, and that seems consistent with data on any other organization. It doesn't take a lot of research to see that this is blown way out of proportion.

 

Of course it's disgusting that this happens in the Church. Things like this should NEVER happen, anywhere. Children should ALWAYS be kept innocent and protected. Always. Unfortunately, we live on earth and people down here are evil.