Can we have a civil conversation about Catholicism?

[anabelneri]

I don't get even having a clue about how a marriage works unless you have been in one. Sex, intimacy, the day to day nuances of a relationship.....they have no idea. It would be like giving advice on Math Mammoth when you have only read reviews but never used it.

 

Yes and no. When a priest is new & young, yes yes yes. Or if they're just not that smart. But priests talk to so many people that they'll start to gather useful information over time.

 

My husband is a psychologist. He has never been a woman, nor has he ever been divorced, nor has he ever been addicted to any substances. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have anything useful for women, divorcing couples, or recovering addicts. He has seen and talked to so many people that he can be really quite helpful for them in their process.

 

And honestly, just because someone is married, has had sex, or has kids doesn't naturally give them insight that might help people. I know plenty of people with messed up marriages. If anything, I would expect that being a pastor and counselling people about marriage would improve the pastor's marriage, not the other way around.

 

Most of the priests I've spent any time with have had the intelligence and humility to know that they lack experience in certain areas. And that's Ok with me. I've also worked with a priest who had been married for 30 years and had grandkids. That's Ok with me too.

 

:)

[*Michelle*]

Truly. And what about the young, newlywed pastor? Is he any more qualified just because he got married last year? Good advice and good insight can come from many different people with many different backgrounds. I'm not saying that all priests are fantastic marriage counselors, but you can't say that none of them are. Beyond that, the priest's primary job is not to be a marriage counselor. Their job is the sacraments.

[Guest inoubliable]

Beyond that, the priest's primary job is not to be a marriage counselor. Their job is the sacraments.

 

Whut?

Marriage IS one of the sacraments. Shouldn't they know what they're talking about regarding marriage then?

[Spy Car]

 

 

Honestly, and this isn't a popular opinion, I think a lot of the past issues from the 50s, 60s and 70s happened because of the times and the mentality that went along with those times. I'm not saying that what was done was right, far from it.

 

But today things have changed. The mentality had changed across the board. We won't accept the cover ups the way our parents and grand parents would. The bishops are getting their acts together and not following along with the mentality of covering things up.

 

So, yeah, I think the new pope will have to stand up and put a foot down.

 

 

I fervently hope this is the case, and I wish the Cardinals well in choosing a successor to Pope Benedict.

 

I must say that I, like many residents of Los Angleles (both Catholics and non-Catholic), am deeply saddened and dismayed that our disgraced former Archbishop Roger Mahony will be participating in the selection of the new Pope as a Cardinal. This should not have happened.

 

Instead of being locked in the conclave, Roger Mahony should be locked in a prison cell. His participation in the papal selection is beyond my comprehension or understanding.

 

Bill

[*Michelle*]

 

Whut?

Marriage IS one of the sacraments. Shouldn't they know what they're talking about regarding marriage then?

 

 

They need to know how to administer the sacrament correctly. They need to know canon law surrounding valid marriages. The parish priest is not the sole resource within the diocese. I know ours has well-trained people available for marriage counseling and retreats.

[Faithr]

Charlotte Mason never had children, yet she gives very good advice on how to raise them. Because she made herself an expert on children. Priests can advise on things like learning to forgive, being patient, communicating better, etc. When and if they get over the head, they refer you to a good marriage counselor. Most of what it means to be successfully married involves things that a priest can advise you on. Being married is no guarantee that you can give good advice. Having children is no guarantee that you know how to raise children.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

Instead of being locked in the conclave, Rodger Mahony should be locked in a prison cell. His participation in the papal selection is beyond my comprehension or understanding.

 

Bill

 

 

He wasn't the only one that people wanted kept away from the conclave.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/abuse-victims-cardinals-conclave-18661393

 

Sad. It is things like this that diminish any credibility they have left with a lot of people. I honestly hope they choose someone who will see justice done.

[unsinkable]

 

For me, I'd rather have someone with experience, who knows what he's actually talking about. But I'm not Catholic. I also prefer pediatricians who are parents.

 

 

And I prefer midwives and OBs and GYNs and LCs with Lady Parts.

[anabelneri]

 

They need to know how to administer the sacrament correctly. They need to know canon law surrounding valid marriages. The parish priest is not the sole resource within the diocese. I know ours has well-trained people available for marriage counseling and retreats.

 

 

Shoot, in Catholicism they aren't even the ministers of the sacrament. They're the church's witness; the bride and groom are the ones performing the sacrament. They do need to be able to preside over the ceremony, and as the church's witness they're supposed to have some sense of whether or not a couple has any chance at succeeding, but IME most of the marriage prep is led by other members of a parish.

 

Ok, honestly I doubt that the possibility of married clergy is the topmost issue on the minds of the cardinals. And hopefully whoever is chosen is busy being worried about his relationship with God and what is best for the Church right now. There are plenty of other issues that are far more likely to be changed by this new Pope.

 

Re: LA's Archbishop... I hadn't realized that he was there. That's a bit upsetting. He's likely not the only one, either.

 

Praying praying praying. At least I'm not chanting "not Ratzinger" in my head this time like last time.

 

:)

[Tiramisu]

I heard a short item about this on the BBC. Where married priests have been put into parishes, there has been a lot of grumbling. This is apparently not theological, but because local people feel that marriage and family makes a priest less available to the flock, and there isn't a traditional 'vicar's wife' role to spread the load. Instead, the traditional female parish helpers feel pushed out by the wife. It's a social revolution.

 

Laura

 

 

I've heard people voice practical concerns of providing appropriate living arrangements and health insurance for a family.

[butterflymommy]

Watching the news and reading online, I keep seeing comments from people hoping that the new Pope will "make changes" in the Church. If they are only talking about birth control and women in the Priesthood, they are just showing their lack of education. The Catholic church WILL NEVER change those two things. A quick scan of the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains it pretty clearly. Like it or lump it, those things are here to stay, period.

 

So, is that it? Is there something else people want to see changed??

 

Please be civil in your comments.

 

 

I haven't read replies, but I have heard that celibacy for priests is one issue on the table. I understand this is a sensitive issue, but I personally would love to see the Church open to making celibacy optional for priests. The Orthodox Church allows priests to marry, some married men can become Catholic priests under certain circumstances, and of course the Byzantine Catholic Church allows married priests. The Church is starving for priests and if they opened their doors to devout Catholic men who are married I think you would see more men come knocking for the job.

[*Michelle*]

I've heard people voice practical concerns of providing appropriate living arrangements and health insurance for a family.

 

 

There's that also. Secular priests don't make much. They may have housing provided in the rectory, but that's not exactly the best place I could think of to raise a family. There's not much privacy.

 

While the discipline of celibacy for secular priests may or may not change, I can't imagine that priests who take holy orders would ever have that option.

[Audrey]

I think that transparency would be a great change to make. The Church does so much clouded in secrecy that scandal and corruption are a guarantee. If they were to be more tranparent about issues and complaints brought against the Church, about Church finances, about Church politics, I think that would be an enormous improvement not only to the Vatican, but to Church followers. It would also go very, very far in improving the non-Catholic opinion of the Church as an institution and a spiritual leader.

[*Michelle*]

 

I haven't read replies, but I have heard that celibacy for priests is one issue on the table. I understand this is a sensitive issue, but I personally would love to see the Church open to making celibacy optional for priests. The Orthodox Church allows priests to marry, some married men can become Catholic priests under certain circumstances, and of course the Byzantine Catholic Church allows married priests. The Church is starving for priests and if they opened their doors to devout Catholic men who are married I think you would see more men come knocking for the job.

 

 

The permanent diaconate is open to married men. It was reestablished 30 years ago. The option is there.

[albeto]

 

He wasn't the only one that people wanted kept away from the conclave.

http://abcnews.go.co...nclave-18661393

 

Sad. It is things like this that diminish any credibility they have left with a lot of people. I honestly hope they choose someone who will see justice done.

 

 

 

The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests claim "only two papal candidates 'clean' of sex abuse scandals." My heart goes out to those who have been victimized, and to those who love them.

[Laura Corin]

Oh but perhaps it's not British...I'm not entirely sure.

 

 

Yes, it's British. I'm not sure how old it is - I think it was on when I was out of the country.

 

Laura

[WishboneDawn]

I love that British show The Vicar of Dibley. Is this an old show? It's on the public station here. I grew up in a Catholic home, but the thought of a woman religious leader who can marry and be interested in dating is kinda cool. And the show is hilarious.

 

Have you seen that one?

 

 

We had an EFM class once where the Bishop of our diocese (Anglican) attended. We also had three minister in the class with two being women. We had, as part of the class, an exercise in theological reflection where someone tells a story, we come up with a metaphor for a key moment in the story and then pick a piece of scripture to illustrate the metaphor. That day the metaphor was wearing a sweater or jacket around your waist to cover up the fact that your period has started unexpectedly in public.

 

It was something to hear a Bishop talk about menstruation and tampons. Weirdly wonderful to see a higher official in the church dealing with the exact same biological issues I had to.

 

The guys thought it was neat to. The old bachelor in the group found it fascinating to find out about this whole other world of women and their biology. :D

 

Anyhow, your post reminded me of that. It was freeing to realize a Bishop understood periods, probably more freeing to see an issue so completely female reflected back tom me from someone representing the church. I think having married priests might offer people something of that. Not simply to have a minister who had more experience but so see more of themselves in their minister. It's a good way to see the Spirit in ourselves I think.

[butterflymommy]

The permanent diaconate is open to married men. It was reestablished 30 years ago. The option is there.

 

 

My concern is for the priests. Thinking you can be celibate for life at age 20 when you enter the priesthood may translate into a very different reality as the years tick by. I have read accounts of priests describing mind numbing loneliness and depression even in very active parishes. IMO it is borderline inhumane to require celibacy as part of the priesthood. Celibacy should be reserved for ascetics like monks and nuns.

 

There is also the delicate issue that gay sex and child molestation do not technically break the vows of celibacy. The latter was used as an excuse by more than one pedophile priest. They wanted to maintain their vow of celibacy and molesting a child did not technically break that vow. Only sex with a woman does.

 

And the even more delicate issue of gay men in the priesthood. Some studies put the number at more than 50%. It is quite possible that the celibacy requirement attracted and attracts gay men to the profession.

 

I have no problem with consenting gay adults doing what they please, but it is a problem when they are in a leadership position in an institution that considers gay behavior and public identity a grave sin. Quite frankly it is a recipe for psychological disaster in the leadership and I believe we've seen the fruits of this over the past few decades.

 

So while it may seem simplistic to open the doors in a meaningful way to married men in the priesthood, I don't see how it could be worse than what has already happened.

[*Michelle*]

I'm really not sure where to even start with that. If it's inhumane for celibacy to be part of the priesthood, how is it not inhumane for religious? Priests can resign, too. If they feel they are no longer called, they can return to the laity.

 

The excuse of that priest is illogical. It's like saying that molesting a child doesn't break your marriage vows. That's a drowning man grasping at straws.

 

How does the celibacy requirement attract gay men? Gay men and straight men both have libidos. I don't think one would find celibacy any easier (or harder) than the other.

 

As for gay men in leadership positions within the church, why not? It's not a sin to be gay.

[Faithr]

First of all, no one becomes a priest at age 20 anymore. Secondly, to say that molesting boys doesn't break the vow of celibacy is grasping at straws at best and completely insane at worst. That just doesn't fly at all. Here's Father James Martin (you know the priest who is on Colbert a lot?) at the Huff Post talking about this issue:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-james-martin-sj/its-not-about-celibacy-bl_b_533037.html

[Parrothead]

 

wearing a sweater or jacket around your waist to cover up the fact that your period has started unexpectedly in public.

 

 

 

Please tell me other people do this when they are hot and the whole world doesn't think this when they see a woman with a jacket she doesn't to carry.

[WishboneDawn]

Please tell me other people do this when they are hot and the whole world doesn't think this when they see a woman with a jacket she doesn't to carry.

 

 

I do that too. I think most of us probably do. :D

[Tiramisu]

Yes. and Yes.

 

Virtually every priest I had contact with growing up was involved in s*xua1 abuse or its cover-up. I will never be part of the Church or any other Church again, ever.

 

If you are ever curious, look up the Diocese of Rockville Center on Long Island.

 

It was horrifying enough to find out what the abusing priests had done (the youth pastor at my parish and then my high school chaplain) but much more horrifying to find out that priests I loved and revered transferred those same priests to other parishes (ironically, my cousins' parish) and other schools. Wha?????????

 

I feel my blood pressure rise even now.... years later... the betrayal is just that deep. We were there all the time... my parents were eucharistic ministers, RAP leaders, on the finance committee..... we were all musicians, played/coached CYO softball, gave and raised money ---- for what? to settle lawsuits, apparently.

 

I'm sorry. I know this is not the direction the original poster was going. But man......... what could the church do to reform in such a way that I would ever participate again? Nothing. nothing. nothing.

 

ETA: This was not the 50s, 60s and 70s. It was the 80s and 90s.

 

 

My family was from this diocese...edited.... I see it less as "the Church" having done it and more as the crime of certain evil or severely misguided people who should be punished. I do understand how others could see it differently because so many people were involved and the abuse and cover ups were so widespread.

 

In the sixties and early seventies, at least, I think families covered things up or hid their heads in the sand as much as the priests in authority did. That is my experience.

 

I still love the Church. As a Catholic, my personal relationship with Christ is lived in the Church and the sacraments, so I can't imagine leaving.

[ktgrok]

 

 

Praying praying praying. At least I'm not chanting "not Ratzinger" in my head this time like last time.

 

:)

 

 

 

Ha!!! I thought I was the only one.

[LG Gone Wild]

I hope the Church doesn't change in order to please people who aren't interested in it anyway. Priesthood is voluntary so I don't see why people who are not interested in the welfare and longevity the Church care about celibacy for priests. Anyway, Catholicism isn't the only religion the embraces celibacy amongst its flock. Anybody upset that Eastern religions have celibate monks?

[cathmom]

 

 

I haven't read replies, but I have heard that celibacy for priests is one issue on the table. I understand this is a sensitive issue, but I personally would love to see the Church open to making celibacy optional for priests. The Orthodox Church allows priests to marry, some married men can become Catholic priests under certain circumstances, and of course the Byzantine Catholic Church allows married priests. The Church is starving for priests and if they opened their doors to devout Catholic men who are married I think you would see more men come knocking for the job.

 

In some areas, the church is not starving for priests. In my diocese, we had a very not-orthodox bishop. After he retired, we got a much more orthodox bishop who immediately started focusing on vocations. Now we have over 20 seminarians, and, no, they're not all Hispanic!

[Jen in NY]

nm

[*Michelle*]

In some areas, the church is not starving for priests. In my diocese, we had a very not-orthodox bishop. After he retired, we got a much more orthodox bishop who immediately started focusing on vocations. Now we have over 20 seminarians, and, no, they're not all Hispanic!

 

We have 31 this year, 2 from my parish alone!

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I don't know, from my experience, priests (unlike nuns) often do and can live quite well. The ones I've known did. They even had hired people who cooked and cleaned for them. Not exactly shabby hardship arrangements I don't think.

 

 

I can only talk about my parish ( I was parish secretary for a year, before going back to homeschooling full time).

The hired help is paid for by the parish itself, not out of the priest's salary.

So yes, a married priest would be a hardship on a parish.

[OrganicAnn]

I would like the Church to sincerely listen to women - nuns, mothers, divorced women, abused women, single moms etc. I always feel that our point of view is dismissed. There are a lot of issues that impact women (sex abuse, violence against women, birth control, divorce). I don't mean that they have to adopt some feminist line (because that will never happen), but to honestly and openly seek to understand women and women's issues.

 

I'm generally good with the traditional Catholic views. I don't expect anything to change too drastically.

[milovany]

Anybody upset that Eastern religions have celibate monks?

 

Um, I would hope not since that's a large part of what being a monk (or nun) is -- being celibate by choice. They're following the Most Holy Theotokos in this (virginity by calling), and it's part of the package. There's no such thing as a non-celibate monk in Christianity, but there ARE non-celibate priests (in the eastern church, most parish priests are not celibate; they don't have to be, celibacy has never been required for the priesthood).

[cathmom]

Diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty. The BMW may have been a gift. The money is used to run the church, pay salaries, help people, given to charity, some of it may go the diocese, etc.

 

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

And people gave! What do they do with all of that money?!

 

 

Some parishes are rich, some are not. We know of parishes in Florida that rake in 20K each week. But where I am, the parish barely breaks even, and that's with bad salaries for everyone.

The priest is doing ok, as he doesn't have to pay rent, rarely has to pay food (he's often invited to eat with families) but his salary does put him under the official poverty line. His salary is enough for one person with minimal expenses, but that's it.

 

The parish has to pay for the church's upkeep (and where I live, it's a lot in heating costs!) and the rest goes back to the community. A good portion goes to the diocese to be redistributed to poorer parishes

[cathmom]

I would like the Church to sincerely listen to women - nuns, mothers, divorced women, abused women, single moms etc. I always feel that our point of view is dismissed. There are a lot of issues that impact women (sex abuse, violence against women, birth control, divorce). I don't mean that they have to adopt some feminist line (because that will never happen), but to honestly and openly seek to understand women and women's issues.

 

I'm generally good with the traditional Catholic views. I don't expect anything to change too drastically.

 

Can you give a specific example where women's point of view was dismissed?

[cathmom]

 

 

I realize that. But when people say they are against the idea of married priests because of the cost...whut?!

 

It would require a total reworking of how priests are housed, and, yes, that could get expensive. It's like year-round schools. They are common in the south, where all schools have a/c anyway, but not so common in the north, where older schools don't have a/c. It would be a massive expense.

 

Now, cost is not primarily my concern, but I understand it as a concern.

[OrganicAnn]

Can you give a specific example where women's point of view was dismissed?

 

 

One would be birth control medicine. I know women (girls actually) who have been on birth control - not for birth control, but to regulate their periods. Women who had endrometriosis (sp?). I have heard of women who were married and doing chemotherapy for cancer and it was recommended by their doctors that they go on birth control. I'm not saying that because of these situation the Catholic Church should allow birth control, but they might not have male priest go on TV and rant about birth control.

[*Michelle*]

 

I actually don't get this.

 

I'm seriously picturing the arrangements of the priests I grew up with. They lived in huge houses and had hired help. They had plenty of room for a family.

 

 

Our diocesan priest has a small apartment and drives a Hyundai. Our other priest took a vow of poverty.

 

Our donations go to many things, including the free clinic we run for low-income and migrant worker families. We also have an ongoing fund to build wells in Africa, not to mention the near constant food collection and distribution for struggling families.

 

We have a thriving parish. I know not every other one is the same, but I'm willing to bet there are many more that look like mine.

[Meriwether]

I think allowing priests to marry would be a good thing since it is based on tradition. When I was an exchange student in Spain, I asked my host mother why she didn't go to church. She had obviously attended at some point. She had beautiful portraits done of each of the children and one of them was done commemorating their first communion. She had divorced her abusive husband about 5 years before I knew her. At the time she approached 3 different priests for help. They each said they would help her - if she would have s%x with them. There are scummy guys out there in all walks of life, but I think this kind of thing would be less common if priests were allowed to marry.

[justamouse]

 

Our diocesan priest has a small apartment and drives a Hyundai. Our other priest took a vow of poverty.

 

Our donations go to many things, including the free clinic we run for low-income and migrant worker families. We also have an ongoing fund to build wells in Africa, not to mention the near constant food collection and distribution for struggling families.

 

We have a thriving parish. I know not every other one is the same, but I'm willing to bet there are many more that look like mine.

 

 

That's what we have. A school, a few buildings that house the administration buildings, migrant ministries, food pantry, SO much. There's a grounds keeper and a guy that is the head of keeping everything in the buildings running.

[Faithr]

 

 

This makes no sense to me though. Growing up they sent out envelopes asking people to give 20% of their salary. Then in CCD we were sent home with little boxes asking to give. Then during mass we were asked to give. And people gave! What do they do with all of that money?!

 

I worked in a pizza place at one point and the local priest would drive up in his BMW. The owner and him were best buds. He gave him free dinners . He wouldn't accept tips (I made some of my money on tips!). I just wasn't feeling this "sacrifice" people are talking about. Maybe it is different place to place, but really I'm not feeling all that sympathetic here.

 

This is verses my aunts who were nuns and truly had nothing...ever.

 

I find the 20 percent of their salary bit extremely hard to believe! That has got to be faulty memory on your part. First of all the traditional giving is to tithe which means giving ten percent but in your parish growing up they doubled that and everybody was wealthy enough they were able to pay that? All the parishioners paid up? That is utterly amazing! What diocese was this? I am very curious! Nowadays tithing means more like 5 percent. And of course nobody holds a gun to your head so you can give whatever you want. my parish is a tithing parish, but doesn't mean somehow all the parishioners are forced to pay that much. It means that 5 percent right off the top of the weekly collection goes to charity. And the parish council ( elected members from the parishioners) decide which charities.

 

You have aunts who are nuns? Are you not aware that your aunts took a vow of poverty? They renounced the material world for Christ? They made the choice? I grew up across the street from a big rectory. Yes, it was big, but it also housed several priests plus contained meeting rooms and a religious goods store in the basement, along with offices that held all the church records. It is true they had a woman come in and clean and cook for them, a poor woman from the parish who desperately needed a job.

 

The money in the little boxes from your CCD class probably went to feed the local homeless or Catholic charities. Are you aware that the Catholic Church runs more chanties than any other organization? Money collected to run the parish goes for things like paying for heat and a/c, paying staff members, training, printing, repairs, cleaning, music, flowers, a new roof, etc. running a parish is like running a corporation. You need money to do that. And a lot of the money from the parish goes to help those in need. Yes, there was/is some corruption. Maybe your local priest was a rich jerk. We definitely do need transparency, but this is the second time in so many days I have encountered on this board somebody who is remembering some aspect of their Catholic youth, who obviously is not a practicing Catholic now, but feels like they can pronounce judgment on things that they really have only the vaguest understanding of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joker]

Our parish is small and they seem to account for every single dollar. We have this small, sad little building for worship. There is only one building because they are paying as they go. We don't even have many pews yet because, again, it's pay as they go. The rest of us sit in uncomfortable chairs. I like knowing where it all goes and I can assure you our priest isn't living in the lap of luxury. This is the first church we've ever been to that seems to have a good handle on finances and are transparent. The church itself still needs a lot of work but so much of our money is helping others. They have a service to deliver food to the homeless and needy. They're also starting a food pantry to benefit those in our community. This is the first Catholic church we've ever attended and I'm impressed.

[justamouse]

One would be birth control medicine. I know women (girls actually) who have been on birth control - not for birth control, but to regulate their periods. Women who had endrometriosis (sp?). I have heard of women who were married and doing chemotherapy for cancer and it was recommended by their doctors that they go on birth control. I'm not saying that because of these situation the Catholic Church should allow birth control, but they might not have male priest go on TV and rant about birth control.

 

If you read Humanae Vitae and Casti Connubbi, it really helps in the understanding of why. These are not arbitrary Man rules. The encyclicals are actually quite amazing and profound. (actually, read Casti first) They are actually empowering to women. Some of the most revered saints int he church are women, don't forget.

 

The church does allow BC for women who medically need it, but who will not use it as birth control.

[justamouse]

 

yes you are right, it was 10%..I got that part wrong

 

Yes, I was aware of the vow of poverty and of the fact priests don't take that.

 

No I don't think the money went to feed charities, at least I don't recall any of that stated so on the boxes.

 

The kids still collect for lent in little boxes, most years they are for helping over seas churches who are being persecuted, like the Coptics.

[cathmom]

I actually have never known a priest who lived separately in a house. The parish I went to growing up had the rectory attached on one side and the convent on the other. I was never in the rectory, but I was given a tour of the convent, and it was dorm style living. In our church now, they don't live at the church but in a friary with other priests and monks. Neither of those would accommodate families.

 

There are two kinds of priests: priests who are part of a diocese and priests who are part of an order like the Franciscans or Jesuits. Diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty. Priests who are part of orders do. The priests I've known have had very little in the way of material goods. They do however need a reliable car since they do so much driving.

[OrganicAnn]

The church does allow BC for women who medically need it, but who will not use it as birth control.

 

But the whole tone of the public discussion lately is not about the nuances, it is about the absolute. It is presented as a black and white issue.

[cathmom]

 

 

One would be birth control medicine. I know women (girls actually) who have been on birth control - not for birth control, but to regulate their periods. Women who had endrometriosis (sp?). I have heard of women who were married and doing chemotherapy for cancer and it was recommended by their doctors that they go on birth control. I'm not saying that because of these situation the Catholic Church should allow birth control, but they might not have male priest go on TV and rant about birth control.

 

 

If you read Humanae Vitae and Casti Connubbi, it really helps in the understanding of why. These are not arbitrary Man rules. The encyclicals are actually quite amazing and profound. (actually, read Casti first) They are actually empowering to women. Some of the most revered saints int he church are women, don't forget.

 

The church does allow BC for women who medically need it, but who will not use it as birth control.

 

Justamouse is correct. In some instances, birth control is allowed for medical reasons. However, many times doctors prescribe birth control without exploring other options or causes. Going on birth control does not deal with underlying causes. You might want to check out the Pope Paul VI Institute - they've done lots of work in this area. http://www.popepaulvi.com/

 

Also, a book that really helped me after two miscarriages was Fertility, Cycles, and Nutrition by Marilyn Shannon.

[Corraleno]

And I prefer midwives and OBs and GYNs and LCs with Lady Parts.

Me too! I find it very odd that any man would want to do that. I don't know why, but yeah, that's how I think.

 

Of course there are people who go into butts or feet so...

 

But at least they know what it's like to have butts and feet, right? :tongue_smilie:

 

Jackie

[justamouse]

 

But the whole tone of the public discussion lately is not about the nuances, it is about the absolute. It is presented as a black and white issue.

 

Well, are you reading Catholic sources or getting your information from secular news? I mean, the ridiculousness going on in the news about the resignation of the pope -- secular news is grasping to fill minutes. They might as well get some tin cans and a crayon. They're so ignorant on what they are speaking of, it's actually sad, so you really can't listen to them concerning church matters.

[OrganicAnn]

Justamouse is correct. In some instances, birth control is allowed for medical reasons. However, many times doctors prescribe birth control without exploring other options or causes. Going on birth control does not deal with underlying causes. You might want to check out the Pope Paul VI Institute - they've done lots of work in this area. http://www.popepaulvi.com/

 

Also, a book that really helped me after two miscarriages was Fertility, Cycles, and Nutrition by Marilyn Shannon.

 

I'm not against the Church's stance on birth control. I don't need a book on it as I'm too old to need BC. Other options, doctor's prescription, causes etc I can't comment on intelligently as I'm not a doctor.

 

But I'm interested in the message in the media, which is very stark.

[Marylou]

Watching the news and reading online, I keep seeing comments from people hoping that the new Pope will "make changes" in the Church. If they are only talking about birth control and women in the Priesthood, they are just showing their lack of education. The Catholic church WILL NEVER change those two things. A quick scan of the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains it pretty clearly. Like it or lump it, those things are here to stay, period.

 

So, is that it? Is there something else people want to see changed??

 

Please be civil in your comments.

 

Is your question just for Catholics?

 

I didn't know the Church made the claim of semper idem until I read this article recently (and I was born/raised RC). http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/swimming-the-tiber/

 

Why are you so adamant that the RCC WILL NEVER change the two things you mentioned when it has changed its stance on a huge issue such as justification?

 

How can a pope make changes? I don't understand how that works.