Update - Talk to professor or just wait?

[Miss Marple]

DS just texted me with a dilemma. I'm not sure what to tell him. Here's the scenario: he scored a 91% on the first differential equations test and the average was a 57%. The professor said that he really doesn't want to curve the grades so he may instead just weight this test less than the subsequent tests (which haven't been taken yet). This is counter to the stated weights in the syllabus.

 

DS feels that this penalizes him. Since I've never assigned grades in this manner I have no idea whether it will penalize him or not. It does seem that it makes his A less valuable and who knows if he'll have a bad test later.

 

He wanted to know if he should voice his concerns to the professor. What do you all think?

 

UPDATE: Talked with ds last night. I asked him about the test itself. He said he found it easy. It was 4 questions each worth 25 points. He was a little astounded that others did so poorly because 1 question was an exact question that the prof did on the board, was assigned as homework, was illustrated in the book, and was on the study guide. He said that would have given at least a 25% for everyone. I told him that it appeared he had studied well and effectively for the test compared to others and that he would probably continue to do that - if the others pick up their game, he would still be OK, but that might not happen.

 

I told him my profs always said that if they had a handful of A's and B's they considered the test do-able and told the low scorers to seek help. I also reminded him of his last semester's calculus 3 prof who told him he should consider a major change to mathematics - he's just naturally gifted in maths whereas many of the other students probably aren't. He felt better in the end and will wait to see what happens over the course of the semester. I told hm that professors aren't out to get the good scorers and will usually help them protect their final grade (at least that was my experience). He feels better.

 

He had a professor last semester give out extra credit which my son did - all of it that was available. However at grade time, the professor decided he would only count a certain amount of the extra credit meaning that my son missed an A cutoff by .02. He felt that was unfair because there was nothing to indicate that only a certain amount would be counted and he spent hours doing all the extra. I think he was still a little perturbed by that and didn't want that to happen again. He's a very quiet, non-confrontational sort so I don't/didn't expect that he would say anything to the professor that would cause a professor to be irritated. I did tell him that he should take his test to the profs office hours to go over the few points he missed - that would give the prof a face to put with a name and score.

 

He's thinking about adding a mathematics minor to his "mechanical engineering with pre-med option" major :)

[kiana]

If he ends up with a B, where he would have gotten an A under the original grading scheme, at most universities this would give him nearly ideal grounds for a grade appeal. I would consider it unlikely (but possible) for the professor to do that, but I would not worry excessively about it right now.

[Barb_]

Daughter wound up with an 88 average in her honors Calc class. Professor told them all the way through that final grade would have a curve. Day of the exam he announced that unless they really bombed the exam he wouldn't be weighting the final grades after all. What? It was a real d-head move. Some profs just get a kick out of jerking kids around.

[Lori D.]

nm

[MomatHWTK]

I don't think it ever would have occurred to me to question how a professor chose to assign grades in any of my college classes. It is the professor's class. Unless the school policy is that the scale set forth in the syllabus is binding on the professor, I can't see why your DS has any basis for complaint. On a standard grading scale (i.e. the one we use in middle and high school) wouldn't a 91% be a "B"? So your DS was actually going to benifit hugely because the rest of his class stunk on the test. I would agree with the professor that I (as a teacher) wouldn't lower my standards quite that low just to make a curve. I guess that's the problem with a curved scale, a student in a room full of eager peers would get a "C" for 91% while someone in a room of underachievers gets a "A." Odd choice for a professor teaching a logic based course. :confused1:

[Barbara H]

I'm sure this will generate a variety of opinions, but if it was my child I'd encourage him to let it go for now. There is a lot of variation in how professors approach grading and sometimes that includes changes as the semester goes on. Most often professors who decide to be flexible do it in a way that benefits students. I would suggest he focus on studying hard and make sure he is mastering the material as obviously his approach worked well as he earned a high score on a test most students bombed. He has every reason to believe if he continues with the same approach he will do well in this course. If he starts to struggle more as the semester goes on he should seek help at that point but I'd focus that on learning rather than on the grade because when you focus on learning the grades tend to follow.

[texasmama]

It is against policy at most universities for the professor to change the syllabus in this manner. The syllabus serves as a written contract between student and professor. If your son does not speak with the professor now and at the end of the class discovers that his semester grade was negatively impacted, he has a very valid case to appeal the grade.

[kiana]

I don't think it ever would have occurred to me to question how a professor chose to assign grades in any of my college classes. It is the professor's class. Unless the school policy is that the scale set forth in the syllabus is binding on the professor, I can't see why your DS has any basis for complaint. On a standard grading scale (i.e. the one we use in middle and high school) wouldn't a 91% be a "B"? So your DS was actually going to benifit hugely because the rest of his class stunk on the test. I would agree with the professor that I (as a teacher) wouldn't lower my standards quite that low just to make a curve. I guess that's the problem with a curved scale, a student in a room full of eager peers would get a "C" for 91% while someone in a room of underachievers gets a "A." Odd choice for a professor teaching a logic based course. :confused1:

 

 

I don't think I've ever taken a university-level course where a grade over 90% was a B. (I'm not saying they don't exist, just that it's rather uncommon.) The most common grading scale at universities is 90-80-70-60.

[Lolly]

I don't think it ever would have occurred to me to question how a professor chose to assign grades in any of my college classes. It is the professor's class. Unless the school policy is that the scale set forth in the syllabus is binding on the professor, I can't see why your DS has any basis for complaint. On a standard grading scale (i.e. the one we use in middle and high school) wouldn't a 91% be a "B"? So your DS was actually going to benifit hugely because the rest of his class stunk on the test. I would agree with the professor that I (as a teacher) wouldn't lower my standards quite that low just to make a curve. I guess that's the problem with a curved scale, a student in a room full of eager peers would get a "C" for 91% while someone in a room of underachievers gets a "A." Odd choice for a professor teaching a logic based course. :confused1:

 

 

 

Colleges still use a 10% scale. (Personally, everyone should!)

 

If I were him, I would mention my concern now. (Not say I would abide by his choice, just mention the concern.) Then, at the end, if the new weights are used for grading and he does not have an A, I would figure out what the grade would be with the original weights. If that grade is better, I would speak to the professor again and show him how the grade was negatively impacted by the change. If he does not give the higher grade, I would appeal it. But, chances are the change will not change what grade your ds has in the class. If the professor feels the grades on the next tests are going to be higher, chances are this section (or just this test) was particularly hard.

[Brenda in MA]

I'm sure this will generate a variety of opinions, but if it was my child I'd encourage him to let it go for now. There is a lot of variation in how professors approach grading and sometimes that includes changes as the semester goes on. Most often professors who decide to be flexible do it in a way that benefits students. I would suggest he focus on studying hard and make sure he is mastering the material as obviously his approach worked well as he earned a high score on a test most students bombed. He has every reason to believe if he continues with the same approach he will do well in this course. If he starts to struggle more as the semester goes on he should seek help at that point but I'd focus that on learning rather than on the grade because when you focus on learning the grades tend to follow.

 

:iagree:

I would only have him talk to the prof after the last test, but before the final, if he thinks this "reweighting" will make any difference in his grade. If he asks now, when he's only taken one test, he might seem like someone who will look for technicalities and be a thorn in the prof's side. That's not an impression that I'd encourage.

 

JM2Cents,

Brenda

[Miss Marple]

Thanks for all the input. I don't think any of my boys have had a grading scale other than 90-100 = A etc.at this university. My feeling is that the professor was just mentioning this to placate the students who did poorly. It may be that, in the end, he keeps the original scale. From what ds said, I didn't get the feeling that the prof was definitely planning to change the weighting.

 

My initial impression was that it would probably be fine to casually ask (I mentioned the words "graciously" and "kindly" :) ) if the change could negatively impact his final grade and let the professor answer that in a very general manner. He had a professor last semester who had two ways to grade - he would figure the grade both ways and give the best. I wonder if this professor might consider something like that if he does indeed re-weight the tests.

 

He's going to call me later this afternoon and I'll discuss the pros and cons. I appreciate the input - lots of thoughts that I had not considered.

[kiana]

My initial impression was that it would probably be fine to casually ask (I mentioned the words "graciously" and "kindly" :) ) if the change could negatively impact his final grade and let the professor answer that in a very general manner. He had a professor last semester who had two ways to grade - he would figure the grade both ways and give the best. I wonder if this professor might consider something like that if he does indeed re-weight the tests.

 

This is actually what I would expect. Calculating the grade both ways is trivial with Excel.

 

I would suggest, also, that your DS has probably brought himself to the professor's attention in a very positive way by being one of the few students who did well on a difficult exam.

[regentrude]

I do not really think this is a big problem. Even if the test is weighted differently in the calculation of the final grade, your son has an A on this test - weighting won't change that. And if he is this much better than the class, he can expect to perform well on the subsequent test, too.

 

I'd mention it after the last test and before the final, and only in case the new weighting would reduce his letter grade.

[JennyD]

I agree with regentrude. If at the end of the semester it looks like the new weighting is going to reduce his grade, then go talk to the professor then. But I seriously doubt it will.

[MomatHWTK]

10% scale! Hee hee, again why it is a good thing I don't teach college classes. My poor students would be complaining a lot.

You know what professors hate? Students sniveling about grade and grade-grubbing. You know what they really hate? The high achievers who get the best grade in the class and still complain about the grading. You know what professors like? Engaged students who really want to learn the material they have to teach. Professors have a lot of "soft power", beyond just giving out grades. Staying on a good relationship with professors can be key to being recommended for internships, jobs, and graduate schools. I would recommend that your student go to office hours regularly, to help the professor remember who he is, and to only bring up this test in the context of wanting to understand why he missed the questions he did miss. And maybe, to bring up in passing something joking and kidding like "I didn't think the first test was too hard, I found it interesting and challenging -- I hope you don't make the others ones too easy just because of the complainers :-) ".

[laundrycrisis]

If he did that much better than the class average, all he has to do is keep up the good work and he will end up with an A anyway. IMO it's not worth the chance of annoying the professor.

 

Perhaps the professor feels that he may not have done a good job with teaching the material leading up to the first test, since the average was so low, and is wishing the first exam could be a do-over.

 

In college, our professors changed their grading system on the fly all the time. It often wasn't fair. I don't think it's worth complaining unless a change like this actually does come down to changing a letter grade.

[Barbara H]

Professors have a lot of "soft power", beyond just giving out grades. Staying on a good relationship with professors can be key to being recommended for internships, jobs, and graduate schools.

 

Yes. This is really important. Especially when people have had negative K-12 school experiences it can be easy to get into an adversarial mindset. Stuff like trying to get every single point and fussing a month into the semester about the syllabus being a contract... it will is a great way to alienate your professors. Too many students focus exclusively on the short term goal of getting the grade and miss the bigger picture of building the relationships that lead to research opportunities, internships, recommendations, etc. And, even if you think exclusively about grades, it is important to remember professors usually have quite a bit of discretion at the end of the semester. The student who has always come to class participated, asked good questions and seems eager to learn - if they are on the line between A and B they may get the bump up.

[Miss Marple]

The student who has always come to class participated, asked good questions and seems eager to learn - if they are on the line between A and B they may get the bump up.

 

This is something that my boys have not found to be true. I wonder if it depends on the type of university. I wonder if private colleges or LACs are more oriented that way. I think the smaller classes and those classes which come later in one's major (junior and senior year) may have more leeway based on what my oldest son encountered. But from what we've seen at the big state university, the syllabus is King. Many teachers award some participation points, attendance points, etc. and these are listed in the grading section of the syllabus. Most of those are awarded in an ongoing way - IOW, the student can see if he earned points each week. Those points don't change at the end. At any point in the semester, the student knows where he/she stands with regard to grades.

 

One course that my son is enrolled in this semester had the students break into study groups. Those groups were to pick a leader. The leader is responsible for turning in the group's assignment. Ds noticed that his score for that assignment was a zero. He inquired of the professor asking if perhaps the leader had omitted my son's name. The instructor told him that the leader had uploaded the assignment with the wrong title therefore no one got credit for the assignment. It's a large class and therefore there is little individual interaction or concern for the individual student. I think this is why my son is a little paranoid to make sure he is getting the credit he earned...not that he is whining or complaining because he isn't that sort. But his experience is more on the order of having to fight for what one rightfully earned. Last year he wrote a final research paper in which he followed all the instructions. The grader took off a chunk of points and indicated he had not met criteria X. DS said criteria X was right there and very obvious. I encouraged him to take it in to the grader. The grader was very kind and said that he had obviously been grading too late and that ds was correct. That encounter meant a letter grade bump.

 

I really wish the above were true at this university, but it isn't. I think it would be a rare occurrence for a student to get a bump up if the bump didn't come in the form of point/s available and listed in the syllabus as a possibility. It may be the lawsuit happy students who have created this atmosphere - where the professor has to have a concrete reason for assigning grades. Also, I think there may be more room in the liberal arts courses for professors to weight grades based on how they perceive the student. But in the STEM classes where there is a right/wrong answer and less room for subjective grading, I think it's more difficult.

[Barbara H]

How large are these classes? Did it improve as they got further along into upper division courses?

 

Yes, a bump is going to be less likely in a really huge sections particularly in STEM disciplines or "weeder" type courses. They are going to be less likely professors aren't doing the grading. When assistants are doing the grading students do need to check more carefully to make sure they are being awarded full points (and no I don't at all think that means your kid is a grade grubber). It is really hard to get to know your professor when it is a huge class, but I would still encourage students to make some contact through office hours to ask some question of substance. If you are known by the professor individually it makes it easier if you do have a grade dispute. It is also really important to focus on the big picture of building relationships so you have access to opportunities and good letters later.

 

Not in a STEM field, but I have certainly given better students in my classes (large state university about 80 students in a section and at a small college with 20 or 30 students a class) the bump up. I'm sure most had no idea they had gotten the bump because it is really just an issue of students who are right on the line between grades.

[regentrude]

This is something that my boys have not found to be true. I wonder if it depends on the type of university. I wonder if private colleges or LACs are more oriented that way. I think the smaller classes and those classes which come later in one's major (junior and senior year) may have more leeway based on what my oldest son encountered. But from what we've seen at the big state university, the syllabus is King. .....

 

It may be the lawsuit happy students who have created this atmosphere - where the professor has to have a concrete reason for assigning grades. Also, I think there may be more room in the liberal arts courses for professors to weight grades based on how they perceive the student. But in the STEM classes where there is a right/wrong answer and less room for subjective grading, I think it's more difficult.

 

I think the deciding factor is course size. With a small class, I can see where breaks in the grade distribution fall and adjust grade cuts that fall into these breaks. With a large course (upwards of 80 students), this is not possible: the scores present a continuum, and if there is one student who is one point away from a grade cut and I adjust to bump him up, there will then be another student who now also is one point away - no way to handle this with a big class.

You are also right about STEM classes, because there exist much clearer criteria for the mastery of material and less room for subjectivity.

 

I often have students who are as Barbara describes: eager to learn, asking questions, being prepared - I like them very much - but frequently they do not have sufficient grasp of the material to warrant a grade of A. I feel bad, because I truly like these students, but, ultimately, trying hard and being engaged is necessary, but not sufficient.

[Barbara H]

 

I often have students who are as Barbara describes: eager to learn, asking questions, being prepared - I like them very much - but frequently they do not have sufficient grasp of the material to warrant a grade of A. I feel bad, because I truly like these students, but, ultimately, trying hard and being engaged is necessary, but not sufficient.

 

Whether they get the A or not... Their positive attitude and good work habits will likely mean they learn more. So many students really underestimate the value of asking questions before they take the test or turn in the paper.