Ahhh dilemmas. Question about the service academies rop

[runbikeswim]

My oldest son attends PS. He is wanting to attend a service academy, either WP or Annapolis, leaning towards Annapolis. He is an extremely talented saxophone player and has been asked to choreograph the half time shows next yr for marching band (and he is only a freshman). I'm sure when the time comes,he'll be drum major. He is also all city, a soloist etc. Academically, he is currently ranked #1 and has a demanding honors schedule.

 

Here is the dilemma. While he is not un athletic, he is not really athletic. But he plays soccer for the HS bc that is his best sport and he feels like he has to have a sport for the service academies. He wants to play soccer for 4 years. He probably won't even make Varsity until his senior yr and he does a lot of sitting on the bench. He does enjoy soccer. But as his responsibilities for marching band increase, he will soon have to make a decision bc he won't be able to do band and soccer. Or if he does, he will be juggling like crazy and be letting one or the other down at various times. They are both fall after school activities.

 

His true talent is music. Will dropping a sport (his only sport) really diminish his chances to get an appointment? He is a fit kid, could easily pass the physical requirements but we have heard from friends he needs a varsity letter. However, these are all West Point grads and I wonder if the Naval Academy has a different policy??

[Lanny]

I think I read on the AFA web site that about 80% of those accepted have a Varsity letter... However, if the academy has a student band and needs a Sax player? GL to him!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

(Had to come back and edit now that I'm not on the infernal tablet.)

 

Unlike schools that NEED certain musicians academies won't give priority in order to get a certain instrument. While there are cadet/midshipman music corps, they aren't going to base admissions decisions on instruments needed in the band.

 

I'm on the fence about the sport. Sports demonstrate leadership and fitness. Music can demonstrate leadership. But I would make sure fitness doesn't suffer. He needs to also be working out regularly. That might be regular running and gym workouts (with local 5k races) or a club sport like swimming or fencing or a martial art. (Now in my area, it would be hard to do swimming just in the off season, unless you only did summer league which lasts about 2 months. But you could do running and then summer swim and maybe a youth triathlon.)

 

The best choice may also depend on your area. Northern VA is very competitive. North Dakota is less so. So I would probably tell a student in my area that they need to make sure they are active in a sport, AND have high grades in challenging academics, AND are active in other extra curricular activities that demonstrate leadership. But I've been in other areas where a student who was the JROTC unit commander could use that to demonstrate fitness and leadership and get an offer.

 

One thing to take a look at is the various candidate fitness assessments. Because you really do not want to be the student who is unusual and also not making or only making the passing score. USNA CFA info (gives max score requirements) USAFA CFA directions (gives both requirements for max score and the mean scores for entering candidates). USMA CFA Instructions (includes max scores and average scores).

 

So doing some math on the various tables, I would tell my kid that he should try to get as closs to the maximum as possible (especially in the areas that are like the active duty physical fitness assessessment, ie pull-ups, sit-ups, push-ups and mile run). I would point out the average score by candidates taking the test and the mean score of sucessful candidates and suggest that as a non-varsity athelete it would be his responsibility to demonstrate that not being on a sports team did not imply that he would struggle with physical requirements. (At least at USNA, while the CFA isn't a huge part of the application it is not minor. And when considering two similar candidates, the CFA could be the deciding point.)

 

This recommended exercise routine has been part of the USNA permit to report package for a few years. So it is something given to students who have accepted appointments. I think that I was told over the course of plebe summer, the midshipmen would work up to running a 10k. Not being prepared for this is an excellent way for a plebe to make themselves a target for special attention from their upper class.

[JuanitaL]

What about non-school club sports? My USMA cadet didn't have a varsity letter, but he was a USA club swimmer for 5 years; he has a buddy at the Air Force Academy who played club soccer. They were both homeschooled and we're in a state that doesn't allow high school sport participation, I don't know if that's taken into consideration.

[In The Great White North]

What about non-school club sports?

 

This. The other 13 or so % weren't "non-athletes"; they were in sports their high school didn't have (fencing? gymnastics? crew? equestrian?) If you are in a sport your high school doesn't have, the whole issue of varsity or JV doesn't even come up.

[runbikeswim]

Thank you for the replies. Sebastian, thank you for the detailed answer and links. My heart sank a little but that is fine. I wish his heart was leading him to a big marching band school (family friend marched at Notre Dame and just loved it). I guess he'll just keep juggling soccer and band and keep his chances for a service academy alive.

[Candid]

Thank you for the replies. Sebastian, thank you for the detailed answer and links. My heart sank a little but that is fine. I wish his heart was leading him to a big marching band school (family friend marched at Notre Dame and just loved it). I guess he'll just keep juggling soccer and band and keep his chances for a service academy alive.

 

 

Is it possible he could go to another school and get an ROTC scholarship and do both?

 

(Michigan has a great marching band, too. I wish I could see it more often.)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thank you for the replies. Sebastian, thank you for the detailed answer and links. My heart sank a little but that is fine. I wish his heart was leading him to a big marching band school (family friend marched at Notre Dame and just loved it). I guess he'll just keep juggling soccer and band and keep his chances for a service academy alive.

 

Once at an academy there are some fine music opportunities. Drum and Bugle Corps plays games and parades. USNA has a drum and pipe band now too. There is also a good glee club and annual musicals.

[*LC]

Run winter and spring track. Soccer crossovers who are keeping in shape can do well and make the varsity in my area.

 

I also would suggest switching to track and/or cross country, whichever one will be in the spring season. If your band doesn't have competitions to practice for and to go to during the winter season, you could check out if track/cc runs then. Track/CC are the only two teams (that I am aware of) out of 20 offerred at the school that don't require a tryout, there may be more at your son's school. I know swimming doesn't require a tryout at some schools in our area. My senior began running fall of freshman year simply to increase fitness for her spring sport, which she also played on a travel team during the fall. She liked it (eventually) and kept with it all four years. In fact, she did not go out for her favortie sport this spring and joined the spring running team instead. In addition, to making your son's fall more manageable, I see another possible advantage to switching to running. Here you can letter in CC without being fast by putting in serious milage in training. This would be great for keeping your son in shape for the academy, and you don't have to be a running superstar to earn a varsity letter this way. From what I have read here about the service academy application process, it seems like it happens early. If your son wouldn't make varsity until senior year, would he be able to put it in his application that might be done before senior year or before tryouts or before the letter was awarded?

 

What about non-school club sports? My USMA cadet didn't have a varsity letter, but he was a USA club swimmer for 5 years; he has a buddy at the Air Force Academy who played club soccer. They were both homeschooled and we're in a state that doesn't allow high school sport participation, I don't know if that's taken into consideration.

 

We know a homeschooler there now who came from a state that doesn't allow high school sport participation. She played an individual sport and was recruited to play it in college.

 

This. The other 13 or so % weren't "non-athletes"; they were in sports their high school didn't have (fencing? gymnastics? crew? equestrian?) If you are in a sport your high school doesn't have, the whole issue of varsity or JV doesn't even come up.

 

We know another girl who is there now that went to a public school where you simply filled out paperwork and a physical form and you were put on a team. She played at least 3 sports in high school, plus she had an unusual individual sport, where she also worked at coaching younger athletes.

 

I also know another girl who is there now, who is probably one of those 11 percent that was not a high school athlete. She was a competitive soccer player into junior high, but like your son she fell in love with music about that time. She went to a big high school with a big band program, where you cannot do sports and marching band. Marching band won, and she had many of the honors that your son has. While I know she didn't play soccer at her high school, there is a tiny chance that she continued to play on a club team. Or, there is a chance that she found a spring sport, such as track/cc or swimming that didn't interfere with band. We don't live by this family anymore, but I can ask if you like.

 

All three of these girls are from different states, but all three states are large in population and in military interest.

 

My senior knows of two seniors from her school that have been accepted for next year. One played varsity soccer all four years. The other played football and lacrosse. Here you cannot do marching band and any of these sports.

 

Since a service academy is such a long shot, I personally would encourage my band-loving son to look into college marching bands at whatever schools have his intended major. Help him get excited about that possibility, so he still has a college to be excited about if he does not get an appointment to a service academy. Plus, I recently wrote on another post, my oldest developed an anaphylactic allergy right before her senior year. That would have knocked her out of service academy consideration just as she was starting the process. If something similiar happens to your son, can you imagine what a let down the college application process will be if he doesn't have another interest/passion.

 

Good luck to your son.

[runbikeswim]

Thank you for the post LC. He just came to me yesterday and told me that he is considering track in the spring. It is hard to make track here ( i know, that sounds hard to believe lol). The biggest dilemna I have is that he goes to a huge powerhouse 5a school. Lots of grads have gone on to Div 1 and we have a few pro atheltes as well. A girl who runs in our city is the american record holder for the middle school mile. Cuts are brutal and varsity letters are not a given. Ds is not a natural athlete. At my old HS, he could have been jv 2 years, varsity 2 years and a captain probably simply bs of his work ethic and attitude. Not here. Clubs are competitive as well. They are expensive, they travel and they encourage year round participation.

 

I am not ruling anything out. I have a few soccer camps planned for the summer, as well as kicking around a summer session of club soccer and seeing if that works out.

 

Right now I'm just thinking out loud and bainstorming. His father is military, he has seen his Dad deploy many times, he has lived on military bases most of his life. I do understand why he wants to serve his country so badly. Sometimes I just wonder if he isn't trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole.

 

 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

My take on the academies looking for hs varsity athletes is that it is about more than wanting a bunch of jocks at the school. I think they are using varsity level sports to prove physical fitness, dedication, determination, work ethic, leadership and other such qualities. If your child has activities that can speak to all these attributes, in particular some objective measure of being physically fit, then it is possible that there won't be a problem in the application process. While I'm no expert (although I have a ms student still looking at military academies-so I follow these topics) I would guess that your son is not necessarily a square peg.

[katilac]

<snip>

Right now I'm just thinking out loud and bainstorming. His father is military, he has seen his Dad deploy many times, he has lived on military bases most of his life. I do understand why he wants to serve his country so badly. Sometimes I just wonder if he isn't trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole.

 

 

This is possible, and it's also true that service academies are a long shot for most people to begin with.

 

Where does dad stand on all this? If he's fine with ds not aiming for a service academy, it would probably be a very good idea for him to say that, out loud and more than once. Often, kids will do what they think is expected of them, what they think their parents want them to do. Knowing for sure that there are many ways to make dad proud will probably help him breathe easier, and it might help him sort out whether service academy is something he truly wants to do.

 

Please note that I'm not necessarily saying that dad has NOT made this clear in the past. He may well have, but sometimes teens need things to be crystal clear, and repeated frequently :laugh:

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you for the post LC. He just came to me yesterday and told me that he is considering track in the spring. It is hard to make track here ( i know, that sounds hard to believe lol). The biggest dilemma I have is that he goes to a huge powerhouse 5a school. Lots of grads have gone on to Div 1 and we have a few pro athletes as well. A girl who runs in our city is the american record holder for the middle school mile. Cuts are brutal and varsity letters are not a given. Ds is not a natural athlete. At my old HS, he could have been jv 2 years, varsity 2 years and a captain probably simply bs of his work ethic and attitude. Not here. Clubs are competitive as well. They are expensive, they travel and they encourage year round participation.

 

I am not ruling anything out. I have a few soccer camps planned for the summer, as well as kicking around a summer session of club soccer and seeing if that works out.

 

Right now I'm just thinking out loud and brainstorming. His father is military, he has seen his Dad deploy many times, he has lived on military bases most of his life. I do understand why he wants to serve his country so badly. Sometimes I just wonder if he isn't trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole.

 

 

Not trying to discourage service academies, but maybe you could make some visits to schools with amazing marching bands and ROTC and see if it kindles an interest in broadening his school search. Even with 4 years of varsity letters, the academies are hard to get into and he'll need a plan B.

[OSUBuckeye]

Yes, at Ohio State there was practically no way you could be in ROTC and band. ROTC required a 4:30am wake-up time for PT, while band required several hours of afternoon rehearsals. Band required travel with the football team a couple weekends of the year, and ROTC likewise had their own weekend fieldtrips. To us laypersons, it looked like bandmembers were in a musical branch of the military with all their marching around with a hefty sousaphone around their neck. I guess there was a second-string Athletic Band for people who weren't diehards, but it didn't seem that rewarding if band was their primary interest, nor were they easy-on-the-ears if you know what I mean.

 

Of course, not every college is the same, but I dare say it would be easier to merge military & music at an academy than by doing ROTC at a big band university.

 

Let him play with the band, while keeping a sustained focus on meeting the athletic requirements through Winter/Spring and during the summers. Getting and staying in shape can't hurt in his quest to achieve varsity in soccer, become a 'catch' for the ladies, and get admitted into the academies. Even if he doesn't achieve these goals, he'll be strong in advance of those hours-long university band practices!

[Teachin'Mine]

lol This is all the proof I need that I shouldn't post on military threads! Sorry for the bad info. I remember seeing ROTC on some campus visits years ago, and I thought they also had a military marching band. Maybe it was a small military band, but I remember it being quite impressive.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

lol This is all the proof I need that I shouldn't post on military threads! Sorry for the bad info. I remember seeing ROTC on some campus visits years ago, and I thought they also had a military marching band. Maybe it was a small military band, but I remember it being quite impressive.

 

 

Some of the civilian schools that retained a Corps of Cadets like TAMU and VA Tech have corps bands. It can still be an significant time drain.

 

VA Tech Highty-Tighties

Fightin' Texas Aggie Band

Norwich Regimental Band

[Caroline]

VA Tech has a band made up of cadets called the Hightie Tighties. VA Tech's ROTC program is different from most schools, though. It is run almost like a military school within the big school. Cadets wear uniforms to class every day. They have separate dorms. They have extremely strict rules. And you don't have to have an ROTC scholarship to be in the Corps of Cadets. I doubt there are cadets who are members of the Marching Virginians, which is the bug marching band. There just wouldn't be nearly enough time in the day. (Also, Virginia Tech is not just an engineering school. Some people don't realize that it is more than a technical school.)

 

lol This is all the proof I need that I shouldn't post on military threads! Sorry for the bad info. I remember seeing ROTC on some campus visits years ago, and I thought they also had a military marching band. Maybe it was a small military band, but I remember it being quite impressive.

 

[JuanitaL]

Yes, at Ohio State there was practically no way you could be in ROTC and band. ROTC required a 4:30am wake-up time for PT, while band required several hours of afternoon rehearsals. Band required travel with the football team a couple weekends of the year, and ROTC likewise had their own weekend fieldtrips. To us laypersons, it looked like bandmembers were in a musical branch of the military with all their marching around with a hefty sousaphone around their neck.

That's how they get to be TBDBITL.

[JuanitaL]

the Marching Virginians, which is the bug marching band.

I have a mental image. Very cute. Which bug carries the sousaphone?

[mamajudy]

Yes, at Ohio State there was practically no way you could be in ROTC and band. ROTC required a 4:30am wake-up time for PT, while band required several hours of afternoon rehearsals. Band required travel with the football team a couple weekends of the year, and ROTC likewise had their own weekend fieldtrips. To us laypersons, it looked like bandmembers were in a musical branch of the military with all their marching around with a hefty sousaphone around their neck.

 

Awesome band...My nephew was one of those sousaphone players a couple years ago. Dotted the i at the Rose Bowl!

[AnitaMcC]

My daughter has been accepted to Naval Academy Prep School (and then on to Naval Academy the next year). She homeschooled and didn't do any sports other than Kung Fu. She would have gotten into the NA this year except her SAT scores were only "average" (1750).

 

She is in the Civil Air Patrol (that really helps!!!!!!) and she competed nationally in martial arts. She studied music (plays classical guitar, electric guitar, drums, piano, and clarinet) mostly for fun. She loves music and loves to perform but that is not her career goal anymore (she did have dreams of being a professional heavy metal rock guitarist/drummer in a band).

 

In our experience, sports is not required nor not participating in one a hindrance to attending Naval Academy.. I don't know about any of the other service academies. But I think it is important to show physical fitness. My Dd did very well on the physical fitness (although she didn't get perfect for basketball throw). She showed leadership ability from being in Civil Air Patrol and as an assistant Kung Fu instructor for several years. She also did a 3 month internship at a youth center last summer.

 

Hope that helps answer your questions.

[AnitaMcC]

Also, another option for Marines... is the PLC program. Platoon Leadership Class. My Dd was going to do this until she got her NAPS appointment.

 

The basics:

Once accepted into program a contract is done... even to be a pilot is guaranteed if qualified. Attend college freshman year, attend 6 week OCS over summer, attend college sophmore/junior year, attend 6 week OCS over summer, attend college senior year, graduate college. Go into Marines as an officer and on to basic school and then career training field. While attending college, no other obligations required (no ROTC classes, so can do music band program).

 

After the first OCS summer, military tuition assistance is available. But rest of your college is financed by the usual methonds.

 

Heads up... a enlistment recruiter may not know specifics about this program. We were initially given wrong information but thankfully the local enlisted recruiter wanted to double check his information and corrected himself. The officer recruiter should be know about PLC.

 

Good luck.

[runbikeswim]

Thank you guys for keeping this thread alive! I am taking all advice and passing it on to my son. He just sent off his STEM application.

[Mrs.MacGyver]

I would just like to also suggest schools like Texas A&M. You have to be in the Corps of Cadets to be in the Marching Band. The band is terrific, and the Corps is huge with great tradition at the school. Almost every male in my family going back 3 generations has graduated from TAMU through the corps and many have been in the band. All of them have absolutely loved it, and still go back to all of the reunions and things. All have served successfully in the Army as officers in many different fields (engineering, aviation, communications, etc.) TAMU has a really great engineering dept.

 

Ok, off the soapbox... :) I just think that it might be a great alternative for your son!

[mamajudy]

Although not required, athletics can help your child to be more competitive for appointment to Annapolis, where 89% of the class of 2016 have participated in varsity sports. If your child does not do varsity athletics, he should try to participate in some form of physical activity and be able to score well on the Candidate Fitness Assesment. My DS, a class of 2017 appointee, did martial arts, skeet, SCUBA, cycling (100Ks with a local club), and running (1/2 marathons), besides other extra-curriculars. Someone mentioned Civil Air Patrol; also check out US Naval Sea Cadets. My DS started Sea Cadets in 9th grade and has had some of the most awesome experiences ever! He's now the LPO of his (over 100 member) division. Your DS needs to be as competitive as possible. I have seen some excellent candidates get turned down. There's no guarantee that anyone will be accepted.

 

ETA: Your DS should also try to get as much leadership experience as possible - if not in sports, in something else. If he's in Boy Scouts, he should try to make Eagle before his senior year, if possible. Our troop has so many boys who wait until 2 days before their 18th birthday to finish, and by then their college applications are in. We advised DS to get earn his Eagle rank early enough that he could list it on college/service academy apps.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I wanted to bump this thread up as well. If you have a high school junior or younger who is interested in applying to service academies or ROTC, now is a great time to start a fitness routine.

 

It is really unfortunate to see well qualified candidates not be considered for an appointment, because they don't pass the fitness test.  I've had students who were varsity athletes who still had trouble with the test.  The test doesn't require superman athletic abilities to pass.  But it does have some requirements that a particular sport might not train for (running times and pull ups seem to be the biggest trouble spots).  A 1450 SAT is not going to erase a failed Candidate Fitness Assessment.

 

In addition to this, the initial training of service academies and ROTC units all includes a pretty hefty bit of physical training. In the summer. Often in combat boots with packs.  With little sleep. With people yelling at you.

 

It is far better to come into this environment with a strong fitness constitution than to be the guy or girl in the back of the pack, struggling to keep up with the run.  It's far better to be used to the demands of daily physical work than to struggle with the mental drain of getting out there again (not to mention the risk of injury like shin splints or tendonitis from starting too quickly.)

 

Do look at the details of the requirements for each school/program.  USNA will allow students to take the CFA more than once if they want to try to improve.  However other academies may only accept the first test submitted (I hear this is how West Point works).

 

I hope you'll all forgive the reviving of old threads. I'm wrapping up some candidate work for this cycle and it made me remember a couple of good threads here.  Best of luck to Class of 2019 and beyond.