If you're the praying sort, I would appreciate some support

[Catwoman]

Gaining coordination (which is important) and conditioning, and developing athleticism takes work and practice. Just like learning to play the piano takes practice. Throwing in the towel because a kid is not a "natural athlete" has consequences.

 

I don't think you throw in the towel if the kid isn't a natural athlete. I do, however, think you throw in the towel if the thought of having to go to wrestling (or whatever) is enough to bring the child to tears.

 

If a kid enjoys a sport or an activity, who cares whether or not he or she is good at it? If the kid is having fun, that's all that matters.

[Spy Car]

 

 

I don't think you throw in the towel if the kid isn't a natural athlete. I do, however, think you throw in the towel if the thought of having to go to wrestling (or whatever) is enough to bring the child to tears.

 

If a kid enjoys a sport or an activity, who cares whether or not he or she is good at it? If the kid is having fun, that's all that matters.

 

If one eliminated every activity that ever brought tears then I suspect their would be a lot fewer children learning piano, Latin, or long-division.

 

You seem to think sports are an "extra" activity, but many of us—self included—think physical education is an intrinsic and essential component of the "classical idea" and that an classical education incomplete without it.

 

Bill

[LMD]

Quill, don't have any advice but you have my prayers - I totally get the 'hard headed' husband, I have one too! And 2 boys to match.

[Spy Car]

 

 

 

Bill, I agree with the bolded part in particular. I do think that there are skills that boys can learn from their fathers that they just won't learn from their mothers. (The reverse being true as well, of course.) And it is completely true that there are things I "force" my kids to do because I believe the skill is important and/or the discipline of persisting is important. They don't like to clean their bathrooms, either, kwim? They have all taken piano, though two are musical and one is not. You make a worthwhile point.

 

The wrestling thing may (or may not) work out. But I strongly suspect you husband will appreciate your support for an activity that is obviously meaningful to him, rather than setting this up as a test of wills. People come around when confronted with the obvious, but this might be difficult to let go.

 

And it might make a difference if your son felt you were actively supportive of the wrestling (not to accuse you of anything), it's just that it can be very easy for one parent's attitude to be subtly undermining of something the other parent holds dear. I'm sure plenty of classically home educating mothers have felt "stings" from comments they've felt undermined goals they and their children (that have sometimes included tears) have worked hard on.

 

Moms and Dads both have dreams for their children. Sometimes they don't work out and adults "have to deal."

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

[Catwoman]

If one eliminated every activity that ever brought tears then I suspect their would be a lot fewer children learning piano, Latin, or long-division.

 

Learning to play the piano is not a crucial and necessary life skill, and I say this as someone who has two pianos in the house, so I'm decidedly not anti-music lessons. It's nice to learn to play an instrument, but if a kid hates it, what's the point? Some kids like to play the piano; others don't. So what?

 

I don't consider school subjects to be "activities," so I don't think your comparison between wrestling and long division applies here. :rolleyes:

 

You seem to think sports are an "extra" activity, but many of us—self included—think physical education is an intrinsic and essential component of the "classical idea" and that an classical education incomplete without it.

 

Of course I don't think physical education is an "extra." But I do believe that organized sports are optional. A kid doesn't have to play organized sports in order to be fit and healthy.

[justLisa]

I agree wtih you Cat.

 

I never understand the dire need for a kid to do this or that. I mean after a genuine TRY, why the need? That is just not fair.

[Spy Car]

 

 

Learning to play the piano is not a crucial and necessary life skill, and I say this as someone who has two pianos in the house, so I'm decidedly not anti-music lessons. It's nice to learn to play an instrument, but if a kid hates it, what's the point? Some kids like to play the piano; others don't. So what?

 

So, some people will fight 6 year battles over piano lessons while casting aspersions on others for activities they hold to be important. People have different ideals and different battles they are willing to fight.

 

These days learning Latin or Greek is not exactly a "crucial and necessary life skill" but some parents here will see those as priorities in their homes. So allow a man a little slack if he feels wrestling is a priority for him. He would be right in line with the Classical Greeks for whom wrestling was a prime component of education in the Gymnasium.

 

I don't consider school subjects to be "activities," so I don't think your comparison between wrestling and long division applies here. :rolleyes:

 

Roll your eyes, if you will, but understand not everyone will place the same activities that you (or I) may.

 

Of course I don't think physical education is an "extra." But I do believe that organized sports are optional. A kid doesn't have to play organized sports in order to be fit and healthy.

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but it is at variance with the values of thousands of years of classical education that puts the training of young men (and now, thankfully girls too) in the physical arts, including pitting young athletes against one another in individual or team competition as a very important way of maximizing their physical development.

 

Bill

[Elinor Everywhere]

I agree wtih you Cat.

 

I never understand the dire need for a kid to do this or that. I mean after a genuine TRY, why the need? That is just not fair.

 

 

 

But didn't the OP did say that they feel her ds is NOT trying, and that he doesn't want to do it because it is hard (and maybe because he's being contrary)? Accomplishing something that is hard is immensely gratifying, and helps learn perseverance. With my kids, once they truly try hard at something, they often end up loving it. Perhaps the dad wants his son to really try, and then if it just doesn't take (as with the older son) he'll let the boy give it up.

 

One of my favorite quotes from "A League of Their Own": It's the hard that makes it great.

[Donna]

Because it's hard. That is why he doesn't want to wrestle and that is probably part of why dh wants him to overcome it. It is easier to play video games. My older son didn't like it because he doesn't like the "beat or be beaten" element; he doesn't care about subduing another kid, but doesn't want to be subdued, either. He doesn't have a fighter personality. Youngest ds does have the personality to "beat or be beaten." But by the same token, youngest ds is also a LOT more resistant to being told "what to do." Dh believes M doesn't want to wrestle because he doesn't want to be told what to do. (It doesn't take a psychologist to notice they are cut from the same cloth and that is why the head-butting is happening.) Dh wants ds to overcome the "this is hard" part of it. In principal, I do agree with that to a point, I just believe we have gone past the point now.

 

I do see the possibility that M would want to wrestle in the future, if the current disputes over it don't sour him on it permanently. That is the angle I will be using in talking to dh.

 

For the record, I'm not hoping or wanting ds to quit wrestling right now. I just don't think it should continue after this season.

 

 

If this is the only reason he does not want to continue, personally, I would support your husband in having him at least finish the season. I don't think it is a good precedent to set to allow him to give up or cry to get out of something because it is difficult.

 

Maybe, as parents, you can figure out a way to make wrestling more fun...find a way to change the dynamic so going to practice is not a battle. Maybe dad and son could plan for something fun together after practice like go for an ice-cream or something similar that he might look forward to. They could watch some wrestling together on youtube or themat.com or attend a high school/college match with dad showing DS how the moves he is learning now are done by older kids.

[Catwoman]

 

 

But didn't the OP did say that they feel her ds is NOT trying, and that he doesn't want to do it because it is hard (and maybe because he's being contrary)? Accomplishing something that is hard is immensely gratifying, and helps learn perseverance. With my kids, once they truly try hard at something, they often end up loving it. Perhaps the dad wants his son to really try, and then if it just doesn't take (as with the older son) he'll let the boy give it up.

 

One of my favorite quotes from "A League of Their Own": It's the hard that makes it great.

 

 

 

But what if the kid doesn't want to "really try?" Maybe he just doesn't like wrestling. Why should he have to try hard and give it all he's got, when he doesn't enjoy it and doesn't want to do it?

 

It would be different if the kid really wanted to wrestle, but was worried that he wasn't good enough at it. Then, I could definitely understand if the dad suggested that he try his very best and stick it out for a bit -- because the kid really wanted to wrestle and just needed to develop some skills and self-confidence. In this case, though, it seems like the only one who wants the kid to wrestle is the dad, and I think it's ridiculous that the kid should be forced to try to follow in his dad's footsteps just because the dad was a great wrestler.

 

Besides, if the kid quits now, it doesn't mean he won't want to try again in a year or two, and at that point, it could be a lot of fun for both father and son, but right now, it seems like the boy is learning that he has to do whatever his father wants him to do, and that his feelings and input don't matter.

[Guest submarines]

There's a tiny difference between math or Latin, and such a physical sport as wrestling that requires close physical contact with others in the context of a fight. Directly or indirectly, being forced into such an activity against one's will, teaches a child not to respect his own body.

[Catwoman]

Maybe, as parents, you can figure out a way to make wrestling more fun...find a way to change the dynamic so going to practice is not a battle. Maybe dad and son could plan for something fun together after practice like go for an ice-cream or something similar that he might look forward to. They could watch some wrestling together on youtube or themat.com or attend a high school/college match with dad showing DS how the moves he is learning now are done by older kids.

 

 

I think that's a good idea. While I'm totally in favor of letting the kid quit if he doesn't like wrestling, I'm not against the idea of trying (for a short time) to make it more fun and interesting for him, in the hope that he'll change his mind about it. I think your ideas of what might make wrestling more appealing to him would be a good way to make it into a fun father-son thing, and the kid might really like that.

 

But if the "make it fun" efforts fail, I would let the kid quit.

[Catwoman]

There's a tiny difference between math or Latin, and such a physical sport as wrestling that requires close physical contact with others in the context of a fight. Directly or indirectly, being forced into such an activity against one's will, teaches a child not to respect his own body.

 

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I don't think there is any comparison whatsoever between math and wrestling, and I'm not sure how schoolwork and an optional team sport have somehow been lumped into the same category.

[Spy Car]

There's a tiny difference between math or Latin, and such a physical sport as wrestling that requires close physical contact with others in the context of a fight. Directly or indirectly, being forced into such an activity against one's will, teaches a child not to respect his own body.

 

On the contrary, removing physical training from a child's education teaches a child not to respect his (or her) body, where physical training, strength-building, and competition provide a road to confidence and self-respect.

 

Bill

 

ETA: and wrestling is not a "fight."

 

 

[Guest submarines]

On the contrary, removing physical training from a child's education teaches a child not to respect his (or her) body, where physical training, strength-building, and competition provide a road to confidence and self-respect.

 

Bill

 

The choices for physical training are practically countless, from morning jogs with the family to a variety of competitive sports. Forcing an unwilling child to focus on a sport which is chosen by one of the parents, for selfish reasons, isn't healthy for either the body or the mind.

[Spy Car]

 

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I don't think there is any comparison whatsoever between math and wrestling, and I'm not sure how schoolwork and an optional team sport have somehow been lumped into the same category.

 

If you were paying attention, it has to do with the fact that there are any number of activities that children may cry over that parents never-the-less feel are important aspects of those childrens' upbringings.

 

As previously stated, the classical model holds physical education to be an essential component of a child's overall education. This is not new.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

 

 

The choices for physical training are practically countless, from morning jogs with the family to a variety of competitive sports. Forcing an unwilling child to focus on a sport which is chosen by one of the parents, for selfish reasons, isn't healthy for either the body or the mind.

 

It is your value judgement that the wrestling is being done for "selfish" reasons, when you don't know that's the case. No one jumps on those who push piano (or Latin) lessons on the reluctant, but....

 

Bill

[Catwoman]

The choices for physical training are practically countless, from morning jogs with the family to a variety of competitive sports. Forcing an unwilling child to focus on a sport which is chosen by one of the parents, for selfish reasons, isn't healthy for either the body or the mind.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

If you were paying attention, it has to do with the fact that there are any number of activities that children may cry over that parents never-the-less feel are important aspects of those childrens' upbringings. As previously stated, the classical model holds physical education to be an essential component of a child's overall education. This is not new. Bill

 

OK, Bill, now you're just getting snotty, so I don't think I'm going to bother discussing this with you any further. We don't agree, and I think it's best we leave it at that.

[Liz CA]

 

 

Anyway...I guess your experience was different, but I've seen uncountable crying kids in wrestling and I've even seen tears at high school matches when I was a teenager and dated a wrestler.

 

So...I am not understanding if the kids cry from physical pain or something else? One loses in any kind of competitive sport now and then but I have never heard a basketball parent talk about lots of tears. We did soccer back in the days and I don't remember any tears.

 

If it is physical pain, I would get ds and dh in a family discussion where all voices are heard. If your ds presents his wishes respectfully, will your dh be more open to listening?

[Guest]

 

If this is the only reason he does not want to continue, personally, I would support your husband in having him at least finish the season. I don't think it is a good precedent to set to allow him to give up or cry to get out of something because it is difficult.

 

Maybe, as parents, you can figure out a way to make wrestling more fun...find a way to change the dynamic so going to practice is not a battle. Maybe dad and son could plan for something fun together after practice like go for an ice-cream or something similar that he might look forward to. They could watch some wrestling together on youtube or themat.com or attend a high school/college match with dad showing DS how the moves he is learning now are done by older kids.

 

That is something dh has been trying to do. They go for ice-cream after matches. Also, involvement with a friend and cousin who wrestle, to make it more fun, i.e, "We're going to wrestle with B; won't that be cool?" I'm sure those parts help, but not that much when it's 6:30am on Saturday and he needs to get dressed to leave for wrestling.

[unsinkable]

So...I am not understanding if the kids cry from physical pain or something else? One loses in any kind of competitive sport now and then but I have never heard a basketball parent talk about lots of tears. We did soccer back in the days and I don't remember any tears.

 

If it is physical pain, I would get ds and dh in a family discussion where all voices are heard. If your ds presents his wishes respectfully, will your dh be more open to listening?

 

Not a wrestling mom...but there is an expression in sports: "leave it all on the ____." Ice or court or field or what ever surface. fFor wrestling leave it all on the mat?

 

Anyway, it means: give everything you are physically capable of giving for the entire game. When you are done, you should have nothing left.

 

When athletes push themselves to that point, when it is over, there are often tears: relief, pain, exhaustion, release, joy, despair.

 

Wrestling is such an intensely physical sport, I would think that this "leave it all on the mat" philosophy happens often. So therefore, there are more tears.

 

JMO

[Guest]

So...I am not understanding if the kids cry from physical pain or something else? One loses in any kind of competitive sport now and then but I have never heard a basketball parent talk about lots of tears. We did soccer back in the days and I don't remember any tears.

 

If it is physical pain, I would get ds and dh in a family discussion where all voices are heard. If your ds presents his wishes respectfully, will your dh be more open to listening?

 

I think they mostly cry from the intensity of the experience, although in some cases, pain too. Being immobilized by someone with better skills and strength than you is emotionally tough, so, even if you aren't in physical pain, it's hard to be beaten.

 

ETA: Also, wrestling is both a team sport and an individual sport. The losses are much more personal because it is "all you."

[Guest submarines]

 

That is something dh has been trying to do. They go for ice-cream after matches. Also, involvement with a friend and cousin who wrestle, to make it more fun, i.e, "We're going to wrestle with B; won't that be cool?" I'm sure those parts help, but not that much when it's 6:30am on Saturday and he needs to get dressed to leave for wrestling.

 

 

Question: how are his mood and impressions when he comes home? 6:30 on a Saturday would make me cry too.

 

DD would get up at 4am, if it were needed, to go to her riding lessons, but if it were anything else, I don't see her being as enthusiastic, even if she liked the activity. One needs to really love it, to enjoy an early morning weekend activity.

 

Another question: is he naturally an early morning person? I'm not, hence I mentioned crying. ;-). Does he get enough sleep?

 

Could it be that it is the effort of getting up and leaving the house, than the actual wrestling that upset him so much?

[Liz CA]

 

I think they mostly cry from the intensity of the experience, although in some cases, pain too. Being immobilized by someone with better skills and strength than you is emotionally tough, so, even if you aren't in physical pain, it's hard to be beaten.

 

 

 

Okay, I get it now. It seems perhaps more the humiliation that boys/men experience when they are losing in a one on one "confrontation."

In this case, your dh may be trying to build mental toughness along with physical fitness/prowess or whatever gets developed during wrestling.

 

A family conference may still be helpful IMHO. Your boy should be able to voice his concerns and preferences. I think it's important for children to get the feeling that they are being heard and that their side of things is being considered - even if the decision is not necessarily in agreement with the child. Can a compromise be reached? He can still finish the season but perhaps if your dh hears his son's wishes presented respectfully, he will reconsider. Does your boy have another sport in mind? You mentioned somewhere that he is

athletically inclined - perhaps he would rather spend his time on another sport.

[Catwoman]

That is something dh has been trying to do. They go for ice-cream after matches. Also, involvement with a friend and cousin who wrestle, to make it more fun, i.e, "We're going to wrestle with B; won't that be cool?" I'm sure those parts help, but not that much when it's 6:30am on Saturday and he needs to get dressed to leave for wrestling.

 

I'd cry if I had to get up at 6:30am on any morning, even if it was to go shopping... and I LOVE SHOPPING! ;)

[Barb_]

Imagine the father comes home and finds his 8 year old son crying over doing Latin lessons (or piano or math).

 

And perhaps it means the world to you that the boy receives a classical education, and you feel Latin (despite the dear boy's tears) is a priority and something not to be dropped prematurely. Or maybe it is piano. Or math.

 

What if the dear husband came home to tears and said, "I don't think the whole homeschooling thing is working out" and his anti- homeschooling buddies were telling him, "clearly the boy needs and advocate" or "grow a backbone and shut this down"?

 

I can imagine the reaction to that!

 

Fathers and sons have dynamics that (barring true abuse—which this is not) need to play themselves out. If the Dad was a State champion wrestler (which he was) then he obviously has a high level of skill and expertise in a sport where technique is at a premium and he has a passion to share. That he want to share with his son is a good thing.

 

Fathers enjoy sharing skills were they excel with their sons. It could be sports, or wood-working, or auto-mechanics, or what-ever. That is the natural order of things. It does not always work out, but Dad's are not criminals for trying.

 

 

Bill

 

 

No, fathers are not to be criticized for trying to share their interests with their sons. It's only when the sharing tips into over-identification with the child that it becomes a problem. I don't think your above comparison is a fair one. Let's look at it a different way with a more direct comparison. What if Quill (sorry Quill, LOL) had a daughter who was a talented gymnast but *hated* to go. She hated practice, she hated meets, but she still went for it once she was out there because she is competitive by nature. Quill in a past life was a level 10 college gymnast and she is dying to see her daughter follow in her footsteps. The problem is, her daughter really isn't committed to the idea herself. She cries before practice and begs to quit. Gymnastics, like wrestling has a high possibility of injury if the child isn't fully invested in conditioning, practicing and focusing on the task at hand. I don't think this is a matter of a mother getting in between a father and his son, but of a father who seems to see his son as an extension of himself regardless of his son's wishes. A child who believes he has no say in the way his life goes or how his time is spent can turn passive or resentful or sneaky. I just don't think it's a healthy dynamic.

 

I think Quill's suggestion is reasonable and takes into account both her husband and her son's stances. Dad wanted to share his passion with is son. Son rejected said passion, or maybe he just doesn't yet have the maturity to commit to the demands of the sport. Forcing a large time commitment, and physical commitment on his son when his son is showing the opposite of interest isn't sharing any more.

 

Homeschooling in a classical manner isn't the same as requiring 4 years of Latin and Greek. Besides, many of us who would go to bat for our sons in this situation would also switch out curriculum if a program we liked made our child completely miserable each day. In the same manner, requiring a weekly piano lesson and daily practice isn't the same as expecting to produce a concert pianist a la Tiger Mom. Requiring a science project isn't the same as requiring enough time be spent on it to win the Siemens competition because dad or mom is a former Siemens winner. You can stretch the metaphor to encompass almost any field. If a parent is requiring a large commitment from a child that goes beyond simple exposure to forcing the child to compete at a high level against the child's wishes, it is no longer primarily about what the child will gain from the activity, but what the adult will gain. It's up to Quill and her husband to answer that question for themselves, but I disagree with your fundamental understanding of the situation.

[Guest]

 

Question: how are his mood and impressions when he comes home? 6:30 on a Saturday would make me cry too.

 

DD would get up at 4am, if it were needed, to go to her riding lessons, but if it were anything else, I don't see her being as enthusiastic, even if she liked the activity. One needs to really love it, to enjoy an early morning weekend activity.

 

Another question: is he naturally an early morning person? I'm not, hence I mentioned crying. ;-). Does he get enough sleep?

 

Could it be that it is the effort of getting up and leaving the house, than the actual wrestling that upset him so much?

 

 

 

My dh actually thought this, so...maybe. He's not a morning person. He doesn't wake up "chipper" no matter how much sleep he gets. Although, this would not be all of it, because he doesn't want to wrestle for evening practice, either. But he doesn't usually cry in the evening.

 

He was totally upbeat and fine when he got home this past weekend, although he also had gone for ice cream and was looking forward to his friend spending the night.

 

Okay, I get it now. It seems perhaps more the humiliation that boys/men experience when they are losing in a one on one "confrontation."

In this case, your dh may be trying to build mental toughness along with physical fitness/prowess or whatever gets developed during wrestling.

 

A family conference may still be helpful IMHO. Your boy should be able to voice his concerns and preferences. I think it's important for children to get the feeling that they are being heard and that their side of things is being considered - even if the decision is not necessarily in agreement with the child. Can a compromise be reached? He can still finish the season but perhaps if your dh hears his son's wishes presented respectfully, he will reconsider. Does your boy have another sport in mind? You mentioned somewhere that he is

athletically inclined - perhaps he would rather spend his time on another sport.

 

 

Yes, he is.

 

He (and my other kids) play other sports as well. Both boys play fall soccer and spring baseball; my older ds was on the select baseball team all summer this past year. All the kids ski and snowboard and swim. The boys ride motocross, but casually, not on a racing circuit. My dd played varsity soccer this year and was on the volleyball team last year. So - yeah. They've done other sports. :coolgleamA: They enjoy the other sports; wrestling is the only one where the boys have balked, resisted or said they hate it.

 

I agree with you that children need to feel they are heard. TBH, we're not really "family meeting" kind of people. Those just seem so fakey and nauseating to me. :o Anyway, it wouldn't be like big news dh has never heard before.

[Catwoman]

He (and my other kids) play other sports as well. Both boys play fall soccer and spring baseball; my older ds was on the select baseball team all summer this past year. All the kids ski and snowboard and swim. The boys ride motocross, but casually, not on a racing circuit. My dd played varsity soccer this year and was on the volleyball team last year. So - yeah. They've done other sports. :coolgleamA: They enjoy the other sports; wrestling is the only one where the boys have balked, resisted or said they hate it.

 

 

That's all the more reason why wrestling is completely unnecessary for your ds. He enjoys the other sports he plays, but doesn't like this one. Why shouldn't he be allowed to quit this one sport if he has been fine about participating in others?

 

I don't mean to sound as though I'm unsympathetic toward your dh. He loves wrestling, and he dreamed that his boys would love it, too. I think that's completely normal. The problem arises when your ds doesn't love wrestling, and your dh doesn't want to let go of the dream.

 

It's time to let go of the dream.

 

And who knows -- your son is athletic, and he might develop an interest in wrestling as he gets a little older. Just because he quits now, doesn't mean he'll be anti-wrestling for the rest of his life. In fact, he might be more willing to give it another try in the future if he knows he can quit if he decides he hates it.

[Heather in Neverland]

 

 

So YOU get to argue with your son for 6 years about piano lessons (because HE is lazy, and YOU know better) but a father who is trying to keep a boy involved in a sport (in this case wrestling) is accused of living vicariously and is a person who needs to be advocated against? For real???

 

Strikes me as hypocrisy.

 

We do both piano and sports, but there is no question in my mind which of these two will add more to long-term health.

 

Gaining coordination (which is important) and conditioning, and developing athleticism takes work and practice. Just like learning to play the piano takes practice. Throwing in the towel because a kid is not a "natural athlete" has consequences.

 

Bill

 

Come on Bill. You're smarter than that. I made it very clear that the main thing is getting to the heart of the problem. My example included:

 

"if" the child is just being lazy about something then it might be a good idea to force the issue (Like my son's piano lessons)

 

But "if" there is more to this than just simple laziness then it might be a good idea to let it go at least for now... He's only 8yo.

 

I suggested she find out which it is and act accordingly. And I DO believe that parents often try to live vicariously through their children. So the dad was a great wrestler when he was younger. So what? Wrestling isn't for everyone, not even someone who might share your DNA.

 

Maybe he is not trying to relive his glory days through his kid. But that won't be apparent until Quill figures out if her kid is just being lazy or really, really hates this sport for other reasons. And if he really hates it, the dad should let it go and find something else to bond over. There ARE other things males can bond over besides sports.

 

Lots of kids don't play organized sports and grow up just fine with no "consequences" to speak of. I was one of them. Let's not be melodramatic about it.

[Spy Car]

 

 

No, fathers are not to be criticized for trying to share their interests with their sons. It's only when the sharing tips into over-identification with the child that it becomes a problem. I don't think your above comparison is a fair one. Let's look at it a different way with a more direct comparison. What if Quill (sorry Quill, LOL) had a daughter who was a talented gymnast but *hated* to go. She hated practice, she hated meets, but she still went for it once she was out there because she is competitive by nature. Quill in a past life was a level 10 college gymnast and she is dying to see her daughter follow in her footsteps. The problem is, her daughter really isn't committed to the idea herself. She cries before practice and begs to quit. Gymnastics, like wrestling has a high possibility of injury if the child isn't fully invested in conditioning, practicing and focusing on the task at hand. I don't think this is a matter of a mother getting in between a father and his son, but of a father who seems to see his son as an extension of himself regardless of his son's wishes. A child who believes he has no say in the way his life goes or his time is spent can turn passive or resentful or sneaky. I just don't think it's a healthy dynamic.

 

An absolutely plausible scenario. I'm sure there are many high-level competitive athletes who would hope (or maybe more than hope) that a daughter (or son) would develop the same passion for an event she did, that the expertise of the parent in that discipline could help immeasurably in the training of that child, and the whole adventure would be a bonding experience.

 

Sometimes that doesn't work out. Sometime it produces Olympians.

 

I think Quill's suggestion is reasonable and takes into account both her husband and her son's stances. Dad wanted to share his passion with is son. Son rejected said passion, or maybe he just doesn't yet have the maturity to commit to the demands of the sport. Forcing a large time commitment, and physical commitment on his son when his son is showing the opposite of interest isn't sharing any more.

 

As I've said previously, there are many activities that produce tears in 8 year olds that we as parents might decide are good for them. Some parents make their children eat their vegetables, master long-division, practice piano, or study Latin whether the children are doing back-flips over it (or not), and some people adopt a "radical unschooler" approach where a child does whatever he or she pleases. People have different takes on parenting.

 

It does not strike me as unusual that a man who was a State champion wrestler feels that sport is worth encouraging over some protest by an 8 year old. Sounds like all he is asking for is a "good go" and that he relented with the #1 son when the disinterest proved pervasive.

 

Homeschooling in a classical manner isn't the same as requiring 4 years of Latin and Greek.

 

Many would disagree with you there. Or choke on the word "manner." As for many—over centuries—the study of Latin and Greek was, and is, the cornerstone of classical education, and is not a 4 year history cycle. But that is another thread.

 

 

Besides, many of us who would go to bat for our sons in this situation would also switch out curriculum if a program we liked made our child completely miserable each day. In the same manner, requiring a weekly piano lesson and daily practice isn't the same as expecting to produce a concert pianist a la Tiger Mom.

 

Quill has riven us no indication that the father is driving his son beyond his endurance. And many people respect the work-ethic of those who drive their children to artistic heights. Being great is hard work, it is easy to be adequate.

 

Requiring a science project isn't the same as requiring enough time be spent on it to win the Siemens competition because dad or mom is a former Siemens winner. You can stretch the metaphor to encompass almost any field. If a parent is requiring a large commitment from a child that goes beyond simple exposure to forcing the child to compete at a high level against the child's wishes, it is no longer primarily about what the child will gain from the activity, but what the adult will gain.

 

People will see this differently. But Siemens award winners and Olympic champions and concert pianists very often have parents "pushing" them (for lack of a better word). One might hope all children would be entirely self-motivated, but that is not always the reality.

 

It's up to Quill and her husband to answer that question for themselves, but I disagree with your fundamental understanding of the situation.

 

It is up to Quill and her husband. I'm quite sure I don't fully understand the whole situation, but I would not jump to the conclusion that this is anything outside the range of "normal." We all, as parents, choose our battles. This man may be choosing a different battle than you or I might choose, but I would give a lot of deference to a boy's (or girl's) father (or mother, as in the gymnast sample above) in their aspirations for their child.

 

Bill

[elegantlion]

That is something dh has been trying to do. They go for ice-cream after matches. Also, involvement with a friend and cousin who wrestle, to make it more fun, i.e, "We're going to wrestle with B; won't that be cool?" I'm sure those parts help, but not that much when it's 6:30am on Saturday and he needs to get dressed to leave for wrestling.

 

Oh my, ds would cry at 6:30 too. I would explore if not being a morning person is more of the issue. Dh and I are decidedly not morning people. We had to get ds up early a few weeks ago, he was a booger. He's 15, at 8 he probably would have cried. He was like this for private school in prek and K too. One of my biggest perks of homeschooling is not having to wake ds early.

 

If that is part of it is there something you can give him the night before to help. I have no clue what athletes eat before competing? More protein? Maybe a special breakfast you can do for him at that hour?

[Heather in Neverland]

 

He (and my other kids) play other sports as well. Both boys play fall soccer and spring baseball; my older ds was on the select baseball team all summer this past year. All the kids ski and snowboard and swim. The boys ride motocross, but casually, not on a racing circuit. My dd played varsity soccer this year and was on the volleyball team last year. So - yeah. They've done other sports. :coolgleamA: They enjoy the other sports; wrestling is the only one where the boys have balked, resisted or said they hate it.

 

Oh, well this just cements it for me. The boy is athletic, DOES like sports and is very physically active. He just doesn't like that particular sport. I would let him quit after this season for sure.

 

It's one thing to ditch all sports but he isn't. He just doesn't like wrestling. His father continuing to force him into one particular sport just because it is a sport the father loves steers this into a negative situation. The father needs to let it go and support the son in his love of OTHER sports.

 

Let the kid devote his passion and energy and ability into getting really good at a sport he actually enjoys. You might still end up with a college athlete... Just not a wrestler.

[Spy Car]

 

 

Oh, well this just cements it for me. The boy is athletic, DOES like sports and is very physically active. He just doesn't like that particular sport. I would let him quit after this season for sure.

 

It's one thing to ditch all sports but he isn't. He just doesn't like wrestling. His father continuing to force him into one particular sport just because it is a sport the father loves steers this into a negative situation. The father needs to let it go and support the son in his love of OTHER sports.

 

Let the kid devote his passion and energy and ability into getting really good at a sport he actually enjoys. You might still end up with a college athlete... Just not a wrestler.

 

 

So you (by your own admission in this thread) get to force 6 years of piano lessons on your son in what you describe as a "battle" and that is OK, but a father who is keen to have his son wrestle doesn't get the same opportunity you've allowed yourself and needs to "let it go"?

 

What makes you able to impose your will, yet criticize other for doing the same thing? Honest question.

 

Bill

[Heather in Neverland]

So you (by your own admission in this thread) get to force 6 years of piano lessons on your son in what you describe as a "battle" and that is OK, but a father who is keen to have his son wrestle doesn't get the same opportunity you've allowed yourself and needs to "let it go"?

 

What makes you able to impose your will, yet criticize other for doing the same thing? Honest question.

 

Bill

 

sigh... Bill, I already answered that up thread.

 

You waxed poetic about the virtues of physical activity and playing a sport. Quill made it clear that the boy DOES play sports, a lot, and loves it. He just doesn't like wrestling. What's the big deal? At this point, if the father INSISTS that the sport MUST be wrestling, then yeah, he is pushing his own agenda over the happiness of the child which is wrong. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

I tell you what, if my ds had said "I really hate piano but I would love to play violin (or guitar or drums or trumpet or whatever)" then I would have let him switch.

[Liz CA]

I agree with you that children need to feel they are heard. TBH, we're not really "family meeting" kind of people. Those just seem so fakey and nauseating to me. :o Anyway, it wouldn't be like big news dh has never heard before.

 

I know what you mean. I didn't picture you all sitting at the table and someone says: 'Meeting is opened. Who has grievances to air? Meeting adjourned."

 

More like just having the three of you talk together where everyone voices their opinion and nobody feels he or she has to say something to please someone else. Like a safe place to say what is on one's mind - respectfully.

[Liz CA]

dbl again