shinyhappypeople Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Do you just go by age/PS grade or have set skill / course completion requirements. I ask because I want to go by skill/course completion, but can't decide if pre-algebra or algebra 1 should be required prior to calling school "high school" - or, more likely, enrolling in PS high school. Besides math, I expect them to be able to read fluently at a 12th grade level and write a coherent essay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa B Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I go by age. If I were going to enroll a child in high school I would try hard to finish Algebra I in 8th grade. Doing Algebra I in 9th would set your child on the lowest math track available (or maybe second lowest, there is a two year Algebra I class available here for 9th and 10th.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I know this sounds nuts, but academics isn't how I place a student in "high school". I gauge their social and physical development even more than their mental development. Also I take into account their financial situation. For low income students I like to place them in American School's GENERAL diploma program as soon as they are socially ready for it, especially if they are physically and socially ready to enter the workforce at an early age. Being accelerated by a nationally recognized agency gives a student a greater earning potential and impresses employers. Work not only allows them to save for community college but it socially prepares them for it, too, so less time and money is wasted then they get there. I don't have any experience in "normal" homeschooling, so... I have no idea what I'd do with a "normal" kid living in a "normal" situation, if such a thing even exists. As for Algebra 1, one of my boys completed it at age 10, and the other didn't even complete it when he graduated from college by barreling through a tiny loophole, allowing him to skip all college math. The one who never finished algebra 1 is the one who started and finished high school and college earlier and has been the most successful as an adult. This is not to say I didn't stress over math, and when to declare a student as "high school". Believe me I was a total MESS and cried myself to sleep many times. I was so fearful and ashamed and so many things. I was flying by the seat of my pants with 2 teenaged boys who had been taught I was an expendable subspecies, and we were living in cold and hungry poverty. Looking back now, though, I laugh. Math wasn't the big deal, I thought it was. I should have expended more thought on character development and cooking. Math is the key to the gate we are told. In my experience it hasn't turned out to be so. One of my boys tunneled under the gate, and the other sat in front of it with a handful of keys and decided he didn't want to bother inserting any of the keys into the gate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Age but also written output ability. I am using some high school level materials with my DD but have to adapt them because she is not able to produce the kind of output I would expect for a H.S. credit. So I'm considering them "honors" middle school courses. Here in CA, algebra 1 in 8th grade is the state standard. The honors track has algebra 1 in 7th. In my district about 75% of the students take algebra 1 prior to 9th and 20% take geometry prior to 9th. Now it is possible to double-up in math in H.S. and take geometry concurrently with algebra 1 or algebra 2 to get back on the honors track. But I would be very wary of the "signaling" effect of not taking algebra 1 in 8th. You don't want colleges thinking that your student is in the bottom quarter of his/her peers, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Twain Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 In general, I use the Core Knowledge K-8 Sequence: http://www.coreknowledge.org/download-the-sequence Concerning math, I agree that the standard is to have most students take Algebra 1 in 8th grade (though some take it in 9th if they are not ready in 8th). The honors students take Algebra 1 in 7th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I'll go mostly by age/maturity. My oldest may do some high school level work in middle school, but he'll still be "middle school". Algebra won't be an issue for him, but around here, I'm pretty sure it's still typically done in 9th, with advanced students taking it in 8th (possibly having to go to the high school for that class?). If you want to follow your local school's scope and sequence, I'd contact them to see what it is, because it will vary from state to state and district to district within a state (my DH was able to take algebra in 6th, while my district only allowed a select few to take it in 8th, with parents driving to the high school for that course... same state). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 We use age and ps grade level. He was in private school for prek and K and we just continued the grade levels they used. He is an older ninth grader. We did consider letting him skip a grade, but our year fell apart for personal reasons and his academics didn't advance far enough that year to truly make skipping an option. He's finishing up algebra this year. Even if we don't speed up or double up, he'll be able to solidly get through pre-calculus, which is an acceptable course for the colleges he is looking into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyofsixreboot Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I go by age. Just a note, our small public school won't allow algebra until 9 th grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I go by age. Just a note, our small public school won't allow algebra until 9 th grade. They won't allow it? That seems ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Algebra is standard here in 9th grade. Taking it in 8th is honors and it isn't available before that. I had one child take it in 9th and one in 8th. Math skills are not the basis for high school readiness at my house. Age, maturity, continuing in the process of gaining independence, and frankly, finishing 8th grade would all be on my list. I have a 2e student and a more typical student. They both have strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't have grade skipped them anywhere, but neither would I have held them back. They will both be college ready when they graduate from my homeschool. They will both have college credits already completed by AP, CLEP and DE. As far as I'm concerned high school is what you do after 8th grade unless there is a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleWonders Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 We go by age/grade level here. Eighth grade has become the standard year for Algebra here, and that seems to be where ds11 is headed if we do a 2-year Algebra route (7th and 8th). I'm not sure yet about the others. But we also seem to be in the minority here as with the sceptic of a couple liberal arts Catholic universities, we are actively encouraging our children to go to a community college first, so forcing them potentially prematurely into an honors track for the sake of college admission isn't on our minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 Age but also written output ability. I am using some high school level materials with my DD but have to adapt them because she is not able to produce the kind of output I would expect for a H.S. credit. So I'm considering them "honors" middle school courses. Here in CA, algebra 1 in 8th grade is the state standard. The honors track has algebra 1 in 7th. In my district about 75% of the students take algebra 1 prior to 9th and 20% take geometry prior to 9th. Now it is possible to double-up in math in H.S. and take geometry concurrently with algebra 1 or algebra 2 to get back on the honors track. But I would be very wary of the "signaling" effect of not taking algebra 1 in 8th. You don't want colleges thinking that your student is in the bottom quarter of his/her peers, do you? We're in California, and this is what's stressing me out. Older DD is a young (Sept. birthday) 4th grader by PS standards. She's doing CLE Math 300 this year and I can't see her being ready for algebra until 14 (so, "9th grade") at the earliest. But all you say about CA schools is true. Kids are put in algebra 1 in 8th grade whether they're ready or not (and then the community college remediates them in pre-algebra/algebra 1 because none of it stuck, but that's a whole 'nother rant). She wants to go to a brick and mortar high school, so I'm thinking about making her wait until she's on track academically (completed algebra 1) rather than going by her age. But... but... there might be something I'm overlooking that makes holding her back a less desirable option. And then there's writing. I have a dear friend who teaches English at the high school DD would be attending, and their dirty little secret is that they don't teach writing. SHE gives explicit instruction in writing (she teaches grammar, too) but she's the "mean" teacher, and the parents and admin have given her a hard time for it. My normal, bright niece is in her 2nd year of community college and is just now learning what subjects and predicates are. I very nearly cried (really) when I heard this. She said, "Mrs. R is the only teacher who tried to teach us anything." So, if I let DD go to this high school, I want her to have her grammar and writing rock solid before she enters. Heaven knows, she won't get any help from the classes (except when she's in Mrs. R's class). So, all that to ask, what are your writing/grammar pre-reqs? The more I think about this public high school, the more I don't want her going. Maybe by then we'll be able to afford private high school, or DD will decide to stay home (yay!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 I know this sounds nuts, but academics isn't how I place a student in "high school". I gauge their social and physical development even more than their mental development. Also I take into account their financial situation. For low income students I like to place them in American School's GENERAL diploma program as soon as they are socially ready for it, especially if they are physically and socially ready to enter the workforce at an early age. Being accelerated by a nationally recognized agency gives a student a greater earning potential and impresses employers. Work not only allows them to save for community college but it socially prepares them for it, too, so less time and money is wasted then they get there. You know, I think I need to think about this option for older DD. She's only 9 and wants work NOW. She's not a bookish, schooly person. We're low-ish income (less than 150% of federal poverty level) but I don't consider us poor (we have a lot of stability, and a good family life). However, the idea that she could start and finish high school early, and start making her own money would probably be very, very appealing to her. I think I'll talk with her about this when the time comes. How do you define "socially ready" for the general diploma? What are the academic pre-reqs for enrolling in American school? Should DD complete through pre-algebra first or.... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 You know, I think I need to think about this option for older DD. She's only 9 and wants work NOW. She's not a bookish, schooly person. We're low-ish income (less than 150% of federal poverty level) but I don't consider us poor (we have a lot of stability, and a good family life). However, the idea that she could start and finish high school early, and start making her own money would probably be very, very appealing to her. I think I'll talk with her about this when the time comes. How do you define "socially ready" for the general diploma? What are the academic pre-reqs for enrolling in American school? Should DD complete through pre-algebra first or.... ? It's been a few years, so some things might have changed. At least in the past. "N/A Homeschooled" worked for proof of 8th graduation. The American School materials are written to adults first and foremost. The first course usually sent is Psychology. My boys skipped that for religious reasons, as we were Mennonite at the time. Careers is another early class that requires a bit of social maturity. Some of the early GENERAL courses are written at the skill level of college prep middle school level, but the social level of adults. Also in response to your earlier post about 8th grade algebra 1 needing to be remediated. That's an expensive route some of us cannot afford. The average USA child is NOT developmentally ready for algebra before 9th grade, Some European countries have been successful at teaching advanced topics earlier, but the USA has not. The reasons for their success are still unclear in my opinion. People talk about teacher training. I think it might be deeper than that, and even include how late our students stay up, and how early they start school. I am not a fan of DEFAULT early math, despite having a child who was 5 years ahead in math. Setting EXPECTATIONS isn't TEACHING. Slow and steady is CHEAPER in the long run, if nothing else. The GENERAL diploma option for American School includes basic math before Algebra 1 (The Algebra 1 requirement is newish). This allows an 8th grade aged student to start the program, without needing to tackle high school maths before they are ready. More advanced maths can be added as electives, even though they are not required. On average some girls are socially ready for AS at 7th grade and some boys at 8th grade. For work opportunities before age 14, some children can work out an option with an employer where they work for store credits. That's what my son did and had 2 year's work experience before officially starting work at 14. In the Spring of what was supposed to be his 8th grade year, he started working almost full time (yes, that's illegal) and was listed as a Sophomore with 2 year's work experience. He was lucky to have a pediatrician who thought he was funny and mature and signed the maximum by law for work hours, and he worked for foreign employers who didn't know the laws or remember his age because he was such a big American boy who towered over the foreign born adults. So to sum this us and stay on topic, I don't believe in default "high-school" especially for low income students. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe so horribly wrong I'll burn in hell. I just don't believe in fairy tale endings anymore, though. And I don't believe that merely being a homeschooler makes fairy tales more likely to come true. I think as low income parents/teachers, our best option SOMETIMES is to be able to compact and narrow a GENERAL curriculum and just get them into the community college sooner and without having to pay for remedial classes. And skipping those remedial classes means NOT pushing ahead of their developmental readiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Oh Good! You are the OP. I was afraid I was getting too off topic, and was worried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Low income is lack of cash. That's it. Nothing more. The reality is that less cash DOES narrow options for most people most of the time. SOME people can hop to a higher income, but statistics show that is HARDER to move to a higher income level in the USA than it is in Europe despite the MYTHS that say otherwise. My oldest son did manage to break the income barrier. He pays more in taxes, than his dad makes. It does happen. But it usually happens when the students does what he wants and loves instead of trying the beat the wealthier people at their OWN game. He played his own game and it worked out well for him. Yes, he worked hard. Yes, he was a slick as oil. Yes, he's funny. Mostly he got lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I do not understand the question. To me, high school is what happens in grades 9 through 12. Whatever that is specifically will depend on the students abilities and interest. Some students will enter grade 9 with several higher math courses already completed and will graduate with advanced calculus and four years each of two foreign languages. Other students will never be able to complete more than basic arithmetic and will focus on vocational courses. It would not occur to me to have the first group complete "high school" at age 14 or to keep the second group from starting high school until they are 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 I definitely had a lack of cash. I went to college and graduated with honors with very little help. Low income doesn't need to mean low motivation and no prospects. So did I. I grew up "no winter coat, nothing in my lunch box" poor, shot up into the middle class in high school and received very, very little cash help from my parents in college. I wish I'd gone to a vocational school FIRST so I could support myself decently and not accrue so much college debt. I think that, because of the reality of my financial situation, the path should have been different for me than the ideal scenario of high school then immediately go to a 4 year college. I would have been better off (I think) taking the alternate path. Oh well... If I'd had amazing grades/test scores and gotten full scholarships or even decent financial aid, then straight to college plan would have worked. But my parents income was too high for financial aid, and they weren't willing to help with college expenses. I wish I'd known about Plan B. In my head it was "straight to college or never go to college." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I definitely had a lack of cash. I went to college and graduated with honors with very little help. Low income doesn't need to mean low motivation and no prospects. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: My DH was able to move up to a much higher SES than his parents precisely because he DIDN'T let their low expectations for him be an obstacle. His dad tried to prevent him from attending Stanford but DH was able to cobble together a bunch of scholarships that covered 98% of costs. The balance he was able to pay for through part-time and summer work so that he graduated with his bachelor's debt-free. His siblings unfortunately didn't have the guts to stand up to FIL and I can see how they are suffering financially as a result. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samiam Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Our public schools allow Algebra I in 8th grade, and it counts as a high school credit. It's offered in the middle school (they don't go anywhere for it, it's a regular class), for those that qualify. Then most of those students, if they did well now have a math credit for high school before even entering high school and take Geometry as 9th graders. My DS14 is in 9th grade, taking Honors Geometry with a classful of other "mathy" 9th graders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccolopy Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 As far as I'm concerned high school is what you do after 8th grade unless there is a problem. :iagree: and I would not consider having to take Algebra 1 in 9th grade a problem. My nephews both took Algebra 1 in 9th and AP Calc AB in 12th, with no issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 :iagree: and I would not consider having to take Algebra 1 in 9th grade a problem. My nephews both took Algebra 1 in 9th and AP Calc AB in 12th, with no issues. In California, that makes the kid a year behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanie Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I just go by age. One 14 year old could be in calculus and another could be in pre-algebra, but they'd both be 9th graders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I wish I'd known about Plan B. I just believe in plan B's and C's and D's. Just like in higher income families, low-income kids come in all types. Motived, not so motivated, 2E, slick, shy, extroverted, with character, and without character. Higher income families can send their kids to college even if it isn't going to be profitable to do so. Lower income families often need to be a bit more strategic and realistic. And some kids just are not scholarship material. My youngest wasn't. He was just way too passive-aggressive, sarcastic and anti-social. It didn't matter what his skills were. He had an attitude problem. Yes, the junior college was VERY impressed with his entrance test scores. But guess what? He never graduated. I've found that when low income students hit the junior college, if their character and work ethic is good, then teachers will help them make the next step up, with or without great academic abilities. Obviously rock solid academics help, but it's not what teachers notice FIRST. Some big name colleges actively recruit junior college transfer students with stories. I was shocked at how hard schools were recruiting a friend of mine. My older son could have gone on to more schooling and still might. When he was in school the professors who had him, often took him out to lunch because they wanted to talk to him about his schooling and childhood, because they were so impressed with him, especially those with teens and tweens at home. Teachers he didn't even have, would go over failed lesson plans with him to get his opinion and input about what they should be able to expect from their students. SOMETIMES, not all the time, low income parents need to explore some of the options they have, and are not always informed about. Yes, money is not real, and is nothing but blips in a computer, but sometimes some parents don't have any blips. That's where a little creativity can be a big help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reya Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 We do it by subject. :-) Makes way more sense to me than declaring that you have to write at the same level you do math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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