Jump to content

Menu

Crossing the Tiber - The Master Thread


Parrothead
 Share

Recommended Posts

I find the diversity among Catholics really interesting, and I think it is one of my favorite things about being Catholic. I went to a workshop for catechumens in one of my previous parishes where the presenter talked about a concept where just as individuals have different "learning styles," people also have different "spiritual styles." It was really interesting, I wish I had saved the info. The four spritual types included those who have an intellectual approach to the faith, an example would be St. Thomas Aquinas. People like this prefer reading studying theological works, listening to lectures, etc. as a way to develop their faith. Another was a more "mystical" faith, such as St. Therese of Lisieux. These are the people who really just love to be in the presence of God, they really focus on the "inner life." Some have a more systematic approach (I can't remember exactly what term they used to describe this, but legalistic might apply) approach to the faith, an example of this would be St. Ignatius of Loyola. The last one I remember is someone who grows in faith and feels closer to God by experiencing His creation, those who can enjoy things like hiking and working with animals as a spiritual exercise. I can't remember what word described this, but St. Francis of Assissi would be an example of this. Obviously, most people probably have a mixture of these traits, but I really enjoyed the idea that there are so many different paths that all lead us to the same destination.

 

 

Cardinal Avery Dulles' most well-known work, Models of the Church, addresses this diversity within the Church. His book isn't really about spirituality as much as how you percieve or emphasize the Church and its mission. Just becoming familiar with the ideas about the models helped me see how different Catholics can often talk past each other, because they emphasize different aspects of the Church and its mission. I haven't read it yet, but I am hoping to soon.

 

I found this fun online quiz to find your model. I am such a sucker for online quizzes! I scored highest in the Sacramental model.

 

http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/Fashion/McBrien/what-is-your-model-of-the-church-dulles/

 

Anyway, I love, love, love the diversity of spiritualities in the Church. Peter Kreeft has this great analogy about the Church that I love. He talks about how Church is not a melting pot, where everything ends up tasting thensame, but a stew in which each ingredient tastes the best it can. You aren't asked to lose your individuality in the Church, but enhance it to be best it can be. The Churchtells us to be salt. And what does salt do? Brings out a food's flavor! Makes eggs eggier, beef beefier, etc. That is what the Church does for each of us!

 

My wedding Mass had guitar and harp music, lots of sponteous praise and singing in tongues during the Eucharistic thanksgiving songs. My sister's wedding mass was three hour+ High Latin Mass, where they flew in a 12 person choir to sing the responses. Both were faithful to Church rubrics, but wildly different. But both were utterly beautiful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1.7k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I will need to see if there is a Squires group here, my husband joined KoC a few years ago, but he travels so much for work and we keep having babies so he hasn't had time to get too involved. It's been over a year since we moved again, so he probably should get involved in our new parish.

 

My son is very logical, very rules oriented, very literal minded. He bombards me with questions all the time about the rules and the hows and the whys. He is always asking about things like how long he has to fast, The other day he started a long discussion because he was curious about how adults recieve the sacraments when they join the church, as opposed to how children do. He is constantly asking me questions about what would happen if you die before you can to confession and you have a mortal sin, whether or not people who aren't Catholic can get to heaven (our in-laws are Lutheran), what happens if babies die before they are baptized, when exactly during the mass does the bread turn into the body of christ, etc. These are probably pretty commonly asked questions, I'm just not always prepared with a good answer for an 8 year old, lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

There is a way to follow the "rules" with the heart also being the lead. That is what the grace of God does for us. This is a big lesson I have learned in my years as a Catholic.

 

 

Yes! The Church is our family. Families have rules which are for the good of the family, and should be based on love, which is what binds the family together.

 

For example, the obligation of going to Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation is a rule, but shouldn't we want to go to Mass? If we understand what the Mass truly is, we should be running there! Sure, sometimes I'd like to snuggle under the covers a bit longer, but in my heart I truly want to go, so I do. I want to receive Jesus, and hear His word, and worship with my brothers and sisters.

 

And wear earrings. (That part is for you, Chucki!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Cardinal Avery Dulles' most well-known work, Models of the Church, addresses this diversity within the Church. His book isn't really about spirituality as much as how you percieve or emphasize the Church and its mission. Just becoming familiar with the ideas about the models helped me see how different Catholics can often talk past each other, because they emphasize different aspects of the Church and its mission. I haven't read it yet, but I am hoping to soon.

 

I found this fun online quiz to find your model. I am such a sucker for online quizzes! I scored highest in the Sacramental model.

 

http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/Fashion/McBrien/what-is-your-model-of-the-church-dulles/

 

Anyway, I love, love, love the diversity of spiritualities in the Church. Peter Kreeft has this great analogy about the Church that I love. He talks about how Church is not a melting pot, where everything ends up tasting thensame, but a stew in which each ingredient tastes the best it can. You aren't asked to lose your individuality in the Church, but enhance it to be best it can be. The Churchtells us to be salt. And what does salt do? Brings out a food's flavor! Makes eggs eggier, beef beefier, etc. That is what the Church does for each of us!

 

My wedding Mass had guitar and harp music, lots of sponteous praise and singing in tongues during the Eucharistic thanksgiving songs. My sister's wedding mass was three hour+ High Latin Mass, where they flew in a 12 person choir to sing the responses. Both were faithful to Church rubrics, but wildly different. But both were utterly beautiful.

 

I love Peter Kreeft! And I love the diversity in the Church, too. When I was little my mother had a couple of LP records (showing my age here) that were called Misa Luba (an African Mass--don't remember which country) and Missa Creole, a Mass from a South American country. I played those over and over, especially Misa Luba. The rhythms and vocal harmonies captivated me.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I love Peter Kreeft! And I love the diversity in the Church, too. When I was little my mother had a couple of LP records (showing my age here) that were called Misa Luba (an African Mass--don't remember which country) and Missa Creole, a Mass from a South American country. I played those over and over, especially Misa Luba. The rhythms and vocal harmonies captivated me.

 

Those sound very cool.

 

One day I want to go to an eastern rite Catholic Church.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cardinal Avery Dulles' most well-known work, Models of the Church, addresses this diversity within the Church. His book isn't really about spirituality as much as how you percieve or emphasize the Church and its mission. Just becoming familiar with the ideas about the models helped me see how different Catholics can often talk past each other, because they emphasize different aspects of the Church and its mission. I haven't read it yet, but I am hoping to soon.

 

I found this fun online quiz to find your model. I am such a sucker for online quizzes! I scored highest in the Sacramental model.

 

http://quizfarm.com/...-church-dulles/

 

Anyway, I love, love, love the diversity of spiritualities in the Church. Peter Kreeft has this great analogy about the Church that I love. He talks about how Church is not a melting pot, where everything ends up tasting thensame, but a stew in which each ingredient tastes the best it can. You aren't asked to lose your individuality in the Church, but enhance it to be best it can be. The Churchtells us to be salt. And what does salt do? Brings out a food's flavor! Makes eggs eggier, beef beefier, etc. That is what the Church does for each of us!

 

My wedding Mass had guitar and harp music, lots of sponteous praise and singing in tongues during the Eucharistic thanksgiving songs. My sister's wedding mass was three hour+ High Latin Mass, where they flew in a 12 person choir to sing the responses. Both were faithful to Church rubrics, but wildly different. But both were utterly beautiful.

 

Thanks, that quiz was fun! The analogy by Peter Kreeft is perfect, one of the reasons I love the church!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our daughter who is in Paris--she is a Little Sister of the Poor and they all go to France for about three years prior to final vows--has asked for prayers for that country. The new president, Hollande, is a socialist and has promised to pass legislation at the end of this month legalizing gay marriage. Last weekend about a million people converged in the city of Paris in protest, but Hollande said this made no difference to him. Also, France has been a secular state since 1905 although not everything concerning that has been enforced. Hollande is showing signs of cracking down, which could mean the Little Sisters and others could not legally wear their habits in public. God help them. Please pray!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our daughter who is in Paris--she is a Little Sister of the Poor and they all go to France for about three years prior to final vows--has asked for prayers for that country. The new president, Hollande, is a socialist and has promised to pass legislation at the end of this month legalizing gay marriage. Last weekend about a million people converged in the city of Paris in protest, but Hollande said this made no difference to him. Also, France has been a secular state since 1905 although not everything concerning that has been enforced. Hollande is showing signs of cracking down, which could mean the Little Sisters and others could not legally wear their habits in public. God help them. Please pray!

 

 

I will pray, God bless your daughter, you must be so proud! I have been following the situation there, I was very encouraged by the size of the recent protest. France is sometimes called "the eldest daughter of the church," so I think what is happening there is very significant for us all.

 

St. Joan of Arc, pray for us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hollande is showing signs of cracking down, which could mean the Little Sisters and others could not legally wear their habits in public. God help them. Please pray!

 

 

Not being able to wear their habits? Not. Cool.

 

Praying.

 

And, how do you raise a nun? I think I have one in the making. She says that's what she wants to do. She's only 11, though, but I don't want to talk her out of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Not being able to wear their habits? Not. Cool.

 

Praying.

 

And, how do you raise a nun? I think I have one in the making. She says that's what she wants to do. She's only 11, though, but I don't want to talk her out of it.

 

 

Gosh, I don't think there is a recipe. If there is, it was one of those make up as you go along kind where you keep throwing in ingredients and tasting. She went to Catholic school, then homeschooled third through eighth grades, then went to (gasp) public high school. She was one very intense child who got more intense when puberty hit. It was a wild ride. I held on tight and prayed for mercy. My husband is a man of deep prayer. I knew if all that intensity and her keen intellect were channeled in the right direction, God could do something wonderful. She never felt called to be married. The two choices she was considering were to be a lay doctor serving the poor somewhere, or the religious life. She had a fantastic spiritual director in college, and in between her junior and senior years she worked for the Little Sisters so the Poor. She visited other orders, too, but that summer she received her call.

 

It's really just living the life of faith with prayer and the sacraments. God will lead us. We just need to yield and get ourselves out of the way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I *never* wear jeans to Mass!

 

Because...I never wear jeans! I always thought they were the most gosh darn uncomfortable things. As soon as I got home I would change out of them. After my second dc was born and I became a SAHM, my sister visited and said she would buy me some new jeans that fit. I was in the dressing room trying them on when I suddenly thought, "I always changed out of my jeans when I got home. Now I am home. Why would I wear jeans?!?!" so I thanked my sister but said no thanks, and I haven't worn jeans in the 16.5 years since!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I *never* wear jeans to Mass!

 

Because...I never wear jeans! I always thought they were the most gosh darn uncomfortable things. As soon as I got home I would change out of them. After my second dc was born and I became a SAHM, my sister visited and said she would buy me some new jeans that fit. I was in the dressing room trying them on when I suddenly thought, "I always changed out of my jeans when I got home. Now I am home. Why would I wear jeans?!?!" so I thanked my sister but said no thanks, and I haven't worn jeans in the 16.5 years since!!

 

 

I would love to be able to do that, I think they're uncomfortable, too, even when they fit right. And we change right out of them too, here. That's the house, you get home, you change, hang everything up and get in comfy clothes. :D

 

So, what do you wear instead?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

I would love to be able to do that, I think they're uncomfortable, too, even when they fit right. And we change right out of them too, here. That's the house, you get home, you change, hang everything up and get in comfy clothes. :D

 

So, what do you wear instead?

 

Depends what I'm doing, but mainly knit pants or dress pants.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a question for you ladies. The last time we seriously invited people to join us at our church was back in the late 90's when we were attending a non-denom. We quickly learned that the church wasnt all it seemed to be, it went downhill very fast. The church 'split', almost half went to form their own 'church' and we were left bewildered. Our friends were scattered and so we began our journey through the wilderness.

 

Because of that we have been so cautious about inviting those we love into our church fellowship, because we weren't too sure about those fellowships. Yet now that we've been attending RC and EO services we have been more inviting and our friends have come and joined us a few times :) It maybe because we see the diversity as mentioned above, you are allowed to be those things.

 

So the question is, do you invite friends (and strangers) to church?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a question for you ladies. The last time we seriously invited people to join us at our church was back in the late 90's when we were attending a non-denom. We quickly learned that the church wasnt all it seemed to be, it went downhill very fast. The church 'split', almost half went to form their own 'church' and we were left bewildered. Our friends were scattered and so we began our journey through the wilderness.

 

Because of that we have been so cautious about inviting those we love into our church fellowship, because we weren't too sure about those fellowships. Yet now that we've been attending RC and EO services we have been more inviting and our friends have come and joined us a few times :) It maybe because we see the diversity as mentioned above, you are allowed to be those things.

 

So the question is, do you invite friends (and strangers) to church?

 

 

One friend is catholic so no need to invite her.

 

Another is from a schismatic Catholic church. She goes to the local baptist church, but I have mentioned adoration to her and subsequently seen her there.

 

Another is baptist. I'm saying a novena for their conversion. She came to church with me once and hasn't made it back.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We only have invited friends to our church when one of our children is making a sacrament. We also had a Mass for our oldest's graduation ceremony. A long time ago I had a friend who was curious so she came to Mass with us once, but that was at her suggestion, not ours.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our daughter who is in Paris--she is a Little Sister of the Poor and they all go to France for about three years prior to final vows--has asked for prayers for that country. The new president, Hollande, is a socialist and has promised to pass legislation at the end of this month legalizing gay marriage. Last weekend about a million people converged in the city of Paris in protest, but Hollande said this made no difference to him. Also, France has been a secular state since 1905 although not everything concerning that has been enforced. Hollande is showing signs of cracking down, which could mean the Little Sisters and others could not legally wear their habits in public. God help them. Please pray!

Praying. They are already attacking those that wear headcoverings and crosses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a question for you ladies. The last time we seriously invited people to join us at our church was back in the late 90's when we were attending a non-denom. We quickly learned that the church wasnt all it seemed to be, it went downhill very fast. The church 'split', almost half went to form their own 'church' and we were left bewildered. Our friends were scattered and so we began our journey through the wilderness.

 

Because of that we have been so cautious about inviting those we love into our church fellowship, because we weren't too sure about those fellowships. Yet now that we've been attending RC and EO services we have been more inviting and our friends have come and joined us a few times :) It maybe because we see the diversity as mentioned above, you are allowed to be those things.

 

So the question is, do you invite friends (and strangers) to church?

 

I am pretty bad at this. If I meet Catholics who haven't been to church for a long time, I will invite them to our parish for Sunday Mass. I have seen a few in church after an invitation, so that was great. I feel very, very awkward asking anyone who isn't Catholic to come to mass.

 

I recently have been spending my time focusing on encouraging people I make connections with in our RCIA class and Moms' group, who need support in making it to Mass each week. One of the young women who came in last Easter had a horrible break up with her Catholic boyfriend just a month after she entered the Church (and he was the only Catholic she knew besides me and her whole family was very hostile to her converting). I invitied her to come to mass with us each week so she wouldn't have to sit alone at church. That experience was such a blessing to both of us. She said she would have never kept going to Mass without the support during that emotional time, and I learned that this was something I was able to do well.

 

I think all of us have a niche in the Church. I think helping exisiting Catholics who need support is a good fit for me. Some have good ecumenical outreach. Some can talk to those who cannot even concieve of a God of any kind. And we all need each other. Some of us need to help get folks in the door, and others of us need to make the parish a place they'll want to come back to. I'm starting not to worry as much about what I am not doing well and instead am focusing on what I can do well.

 

That was a bit off topic, but I've been thinking about it lately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dh and I are going out of town for dd17's basketball tournament. We leave soon so I won't be online again until late tomorrow night or Sunday after Mass. We will be near my dad's house so my dh, sil, and I are going to visit him tomorrow. I have to have a hard talk with him. I wrote all about it and if you just read the first post you will get the gist of the story.

 

Please please pray that it goes well. I want my dad and brother to be okay, to be healthy and safe and have the best life they can for however long God keeps them on this earth.

 

Thank you so so so much to anyone who prays about this. Even if you don't post here to say that you are, thank you!! I appreciate it so much.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/449713-awful-situation-with-elderly-dad-and-brother/#entry4618785

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, and separately, I think I broke the quiz.

 

No surprise there! It doesn't seem to be able to calculate my results.

 

 

Signed,

 

The Problem Child

 

P.S. Can you guess my answer to the question: If you don't agree with the teaching, you should leave. ??!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, got the quiz to score me today.

 

Scored highest in Mystical Communion Model and lowest in Servant Model. I understand the lowest score, ;) , but I'm not sure I get exactly what "Mystical Communion" is.

 

 

(Now when I take the religions of the world quizzes, I always come up Hindu, which I find curious, because it is the one religion with which I have very little familiarity.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you mind if I ask a question? (I'm not crossing the Tiber, just interested in something.)

 

I'm interested in understanding how decision-making/interpretations/policy happens in the RCC. What I think I know: Catholics don't believe the pope speaks infallibly except in very rare circumstances (maybe only once--something to do with Mary?) What I don't know: How do decisions get made? For instance, decisions that were made in Vatican II--whose decisions were they? Or when the RCC issues a paper on a contemporary issue such as evolution, gay marriage, etc, who is it that determines official RCC policy?

 

I'm thinking that popular usage of the word pope among Protestants may be misleading. For instance, a pastor who makes unilateral decisions in an independent church might be called a "little pope." I'm wondering if it's more like a "first among equals" situation. Does the Pope initiate all the time? Or can some other entity (individual or group) bring something to him, but he has veto power? Hope I've been somewhat clearer than mud. :/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you mind if I ask a question? (I'm not crossing the Tiber, just interested in something.)

 

I'm interested in understanding how decision-making/interpretations/policy happens in the RCC. What I think I know: Catholics don't believe the pope speaks infallibly except in very rare circumstances (maybe only once--something to do with Mary?) What I don't know: How do decisions get made? For instance, decisions that were made in Vatican II--whose decisions were they? Or when the RCC issues a paper on a contemporary issue such as evolution, gay marriage, etc, who is it that determines official RCC policy?

 

I'm thinking that popular usage of the word pope among Protestants may be misleading. For instance, a pastor who makes unilateral decisions in an independent church might be called a "little pope." I'm wondering if it's more like a "first among equals" situation. Does the Pope initiate all the time? Or can some other entity (individual or group) bring something to him, but he has veto power? Hope I've been somewhat clearer than mud. :/

 

 

Here is a very complete look at the doctrine of infallibility: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm

 

It is a bit of a slog, but covers quite a bit of ground.

 

As for some of your specific questions/ideas:

 

- The doctrine of infallibility at its most basic level is simply the assertion that the Church's defined teachings on faith and morals cannot be in err.

 

- Yes, the Pope is often referred to as the "first among equals" in Catholic theology. He is the bishop of Rome, so a member of the body of bishops, but he is also their Shepherd. Basically, Catholic teaching on this point all comes from the idea of apostolic succession: the bishops are the successors of the original Apostles and the Pope the successor of Peter. Everything flows from that reality.

 

- The bishops, acting as a body, also have infallible teaching authority. Of course, because the Pope is a member of this body and its Shepherd, their teaching cannot in anyway contradict that of the Pope's.

 

- I believe a pope must call a council or at least give his de facto approval to the gathering of a council. Also, the pope must close and give his approval to a council to give it true teaching authority. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

 

"The right to summon an ecumenical council belongs properly to the pope alone, though by his express or presumed consent given ante or post factum, the summons may be issued, as in the case of most of the early councils, in the name of the civil authority. For ecumenicity in the adequate sense all the bishops of the world in communion with the Holy See should be summoned, but it is not required that all or even a majority should be present.

 

As regards the conduct of the deliberations, the right of presidency, of course, belongs to the pope or his representative; while as regards the decisions arrived at unanimity is not required.

 

Finally, papal approbation is required to give ecumenical value and authority to conciliar decrees, and this must be subsequent to conciliar action, unless the pope, by his personal presence and conscience, has already given his official ratification."

 

- Decision-making at the councils is done by the bishops in conference together, but again, papal abbrobation is required to give the council's teachings their authority. Basically, the bishops - often working with theologians - work in committees to help write the documents. The Pope must give his approval in the end.

 

- Documents and papers coming out of the Vatican's Curia, the contemporary articles I think you were referencing, would be not be considered rising to the level of "infallible teaching" in and of themselves. Of course, they should given due respect and deference by the faithful. The Curia is a collection of congregations and council on different subjects, headed by cardinals and bishops, to help the faithful address the living out of their faith in their time. If one compared the Pope to a president or prime minster, the Curia is like his cabinet. (The Church really isn't like these governmental structures, but I wanted to give some kind of practical comparison.)

 

- Also, there are what we call papal encyclicals, which are basically letters written by the pope to some or all of the bishops. These encyclicals have become more important, more wide-reaching tools of teaching on modern times, sometimes addressing some difficult issues. They may or may not be viewed as being taught with infallible authority depending on the circumstances of the letter (if it deals with faith or morals, if the Pope explicitly calls upon the teaching authority of his office, etc.)

 

I hope this is helpful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick question. I know someone up thread recommended Magnificat for Kids. What about Magnificat for adults? I'm placing an order for the kid magazine and was wondering if the other might be a good idea for us as well.

 

 

I love my Magnificat. It has shortened morning and evening prayer from the Liturgy of Hours in it for each day of the month. Also, it includes the Mass readings for each day and a a reflection on some portion of the readings, usually from a saint. I find it an easy way to be able to get some structured daily prayer done each day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, and separately, I think I broke the quiz.

 

No surprise there! It doesn't seem to be able to calculate my results.

 

 

Signed,

 

The Problem Child

 

P.S. Can you guess my answer to the question: If you don't agree with the teaching, you should leave. ??!

 

 

I betcha it was close to my answer to the absolute authority question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick question. I know someone up thread recommended Magnificat for Kids. What about Magnificat for adults? I'm placing an order for the kid magazine and was wondering if the other might be a good idea for us as well.

 

Yes, they are nice to have. I can't afford a subscription every year. But I like them when I can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone gearing up for a First communion? I have a First Reconciliation this weekend, she is SO excited. There's a service planned for all the kids, and a few Priests coming, so this ought to be sweet. We've been using Faith and LIfe at home (And goes to CCD) and she is just so funny, "My teacher said I'm only allowed to tell father TWO sins, but what if I think of more? What if I can't remember? Do you want me to sit face to face?"

 

Then, I have two joining Squires this weekend and being inducted. Button down and tie.

 

I have a lot of ironing to do. :willy_nilly:

 

My youngest will be recieving First Communion in May. We are preparing for Reconcilliation in early February. I only have two more CCD classes with my children to help them prepare. After Reconcilliation we'll head out to shop for dress. I like to hold off on First Communion details so as not to overshadow the importance of the first sacrament. I really wish we received those two sacraments in different years. In my area both sacraments are received in second grade. I feel my DD is ready, but I wish there was more time to prepare for some of the other children who do not receive very much religious ed outside of CCD.

 

Does anyone else feel this way?

 

(and a birthday, and altar serving...)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share


Ă—
Ă—
  • Create New...