Developing a Specialty

[LindaOz]

I recently listened to SWB's audio lecture 'The Joy of Classical Education' in which she spoke about allowing the student to develop an area of specialty in the high school years. She said that it's a good time and opportunity to drop some things from the curriculum to allow the child time to pour some time and energy into area/s of strength as this is what then helps him or her develop as an individual.

 

I've been thinking about this and love the idea. Has anyone here done this? Have you dropped some things in favor of a special skill or interest? If so, how did you go about it? What did you drop? I'm just interested in hearing some real-life scenarios :001_smile: .

[Sisyphus]

Thus far, we have dropped nothing, but the plan is to year round, bare minimum math and science so senior year at least can be free of them to pursue more writing. He will check all the blocks for math and science, but he does not enjoy them so finishing quickly with more time to spend developing a passion is the plan.

 

I'll get back to you in 3 1/2 years and let you know how it went.:tongue_smilie:

[8filltheheart]

My kids do "specialize" during high school, though it is harder to do so now than when my oldest was in high school. He wanted to (and did) major in chemical engineering. He took more math/science and less history and foreign language.

 

In the state where we currently live, almost every credit is "required" for graduation, so that gives less wiggle room. We make some courses more "minimal" than others.

[regentrude]

Our philosophy about high school is actually different. I see college as the time to develop a specialty; high school should give my students a broad general education that prepares them for any major they might choose (except things like arts, music, dance, for which an early specialization would have been necessary and for which none showed interest or aptitude)

To accomplish this, I require four years each of math, science, English, history, foreign language; one credit of art and music history and computer skills.

Any specialization they want has to come on top of this requirement, or withinthis requirement - but no instead.

 

Specifically, that means that DD can focus on Shakespeare within her English studies, or to double up on math beyond the required courses, or to

choose a university science course for majors as her high school science. She is, however, not free to drop any of her required core subjects in favor of another.

 

ETA: I see how interests can change in a teen. For many years she was certain she wanted to be a biologist; then she decided that she was more interested in physics -and now she has a serous interest in majoring in English literature. I would like to keep all doors open.

Edited November 11, 2012 by regentrude

[MBM]

I recently listened to SWB's audio lecture 'The Joy of Classical Education' in which she spoke about allowing the student to develop an area of specialty in the high school years. She said that it's a good time and opportunity to drop some things from the curriculum to allow the child time to pour some time and energy into area/s of strength as this is what then helps him or her develop as an individual.

 

I've been thinking about this and love the idea. Has anyone here done this? Have you dropped some things in favor of a special skill or interest? If so, how did you go about it? What did you drop? I'm just interested in hearing some real-life scenarios :001_smile: .

 

This year my son decided to drop both jazz and concert band even though he was first chair in each in order to study more math. (He goes to a B&M high school.) This might look *bad* when he applies to universities, but math is what he loves most. We also encourage him to try new subjects and interests none of which he has to continue if he doesn't like them.

 

What I don't want him to do is to *craft* a transcript that caters to what prestigious universities might want to see but doesn't reflect his genuine interests and personality. I'd rather he be genuine.

[elegantlion]

So far I can see that ds is going need to have a lighter coverage of a few subjects. He's very into science, philosophy, and languages. He cares little for history. We've been reading in our history text for several weeks. After next week, the bulk of our history will be from Great Books. I think he'll like that coverage better, as he loves it when we read and discuss books together.

 

Adding two languages and some kind of philosophy credit each year takes all his electives. I also want him to have 4x4 (4 credits each of English, math, science, and history). We may use a culture class to count towards history. We currently plan on doing a lighter study on biology and maybe two years of study on physics.

 

We may not drop subjects, but we will approach them at different levels, giving him time to specialize within a framework.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[regentrude]

. We see thirty or so plays a year

 

My DD and I are so jealous!!!

I would love to have these kinds of opportunities available; what you write about your DD's education sounds wonderful!

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[regentrude]

It is really amazing, I have to say. Does your university put on plays you can see? How about local high schools? Our very small community college even has several plays per year.

 

 

The university is an engineering school with no arts or theatre majors, and thus our theatre program is very small and composed of engineering students who act as a hobby. The plays they put on are a bit strange: very small casts, cutting edge social issues, provocative for thinking, but not the quality literary plays we are really dying to see.

There is community theater; they put on musicals and comedies, feel-good-family shows, and one actual play each year. This year we saw The Diviners. There is a Campus Performing Arts series which brings in outside performers and one play a year, typically Shakespeare. We go to absolutely everything that is performed in our town.

Anything else involves travel to the city, two hours one way, hard to fit in

I have to check out what the high school does, thanks for the tip.

 

I think most of the rest of us are equally envious of the opportunities your dd has to work with parents who are experts in math and physics, to have access to university courses, and to travel regularly. We each find something unique to give our kids (or in dd's case, they find it).

Yes, you are right, of course. I guess I am whining because my hometown of half a million people has several professional theatres and an opera house, and as a high school student I was at the theatre every week. The scarcity of cultural opportunities is my biggest issue with our location and something I am still wrestling with after living here for twelve years. Edited November 11, 2012 by regentrude

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[Kareni]

My daughter, who currently majors in Latin at college and minors in Geology, took a year of Ancient Greek as a senior in lieu of an additional year of history/social sciences. Her progression in high school included:

 

9th: World History from 1700 to 2000

10th: AP United States History

11th: AP Comparative Gov't and Politics

 

(She did take an art history course at the community college in 12th grade, but I considered that to be an art course.)

 

The languages she studied were as follows:

 

9th: Latin 2

10th: Latin 3

11th: AP Latin Literature - Cicero

Summer: Intensive Beginning Japanese

12th: Post-AP Latin: Ovid

12th: Ancient Greek

 

In the area of science, she did the following:

 

9th: Physical Science

10th: Chemistry (Lab)

11th: G 101: Earth's Dynamic Interior (Lab)

11th: G 102 Earth's Dynamic Surface (Lab)

11th: G 146: Rocks and Minerals (Lab)

12th: ENVS 181: Terrestrial Science (Lab)

 

We allowed her to study the sciences that interested her at the community college in 11th and 12th grades (namely Geology and Environmental Science) rather than mandating that she study the more traditional Biology.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[Storm Bay]

I recently listened to SWB's audio lecture 'The Joy of Classical Education' in which she spoke about allowing the student to develop an area of specialty in the high school years. She said that it's a good time and opportunity to drop some things from the curriculum to allow the child time to pour some time and energy into area/s of strength as this is what then helps him or her develop as an individual.

 

I've been thinking about this and love the idea. Has anyone here done this? Have you dropped some things in favor of a special skill or interest? If so, how did you go about it? What did you drop? I'm just interested in hearing some real-life scenarios :001_smile: .

 

We are similar to Regentrude, but with a few differences. I don't require my kids to have 4 years of math in high school if they are going into the arts for sure, but they have to have at least enough to get into the colleges of their choice and to be competitive for merit scholarships. Only one of mine is likely to homeschool for high school, but I have a large say in what they choose at public high school as dh and I are still responsible for their education, and he generally relegates that responsibility to me. Also, I may have difficulty with the 4 years of history for my middle one as she'll be taking AP US History her sophomore year & AP World History the following year--there really aren't other history classes offered at that level there, unless she chooses to come back home. Within history, though, I'm going to allow my ds to so some specialization within what he needs. We'll incorporate more music history into what he does as he is very much a musician, and if we can find aviation history he doesn't already know, we can do a class on that as well, once he's done what he needs to to meet state law (so he can get into a state school if he ends up choosing that, although he's more likely to go to a private university with a good music conservator and concentrate in music and/or aeronautical engineering).

 

One of my jobs today is to go to my freshman's college of choice & print out their requirements for admission as well as for their large merit scholarships. While she can't be limited to one school's requirements, it will help guide her with some of her decisions.

[Gwen in VA]

Any specialization they want has to come on top of this requirement, or withinthis requirement - but no instead.

 

:iagree:

 

One of my kids took more social science class than he needed to by far -- but the classes were in addition to his "normal" classes. He was passionate about politics and economics, so he took an abundance of those kind of classes. (BTW, he is now working in computers and considering a grad program in math -- it's a good thing we didn't lighten up on his math!)

 

I want to help my kids pursue their interests, academic and EC, in high school, but i don't want those interests to hurt their "core" curriculum.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[regentrude]

For instance, my dd is not pursuing a separate, formal history course right now, but she's getting incredible amounts of history through her exposure to drama (as I elaborated on earlier) and associated lectures, through podcasts, and through general discussion.... She wrote no essays (in fact wrote very little at all)for well over a year, then wrote nearly a hundred pages of fan fiction and another hundred copying and analyzing favorite literary quotations; now she's writing thirty pages of critical analysis for a film class this semester but nothing creative, and the quote book is temporarily set aside. .

 

Doodler,

I LOVE what you write about your DD's English and history education... hearing it from you is somehow giving me permission to continue our "unschooling" way to do English.

My DD reads tons of books, devours Shakespeare, talks about Hamlet to whoever wants to engage in a discussion, analyzes literature and discusses stage directions with her online friends, listens to BBC podcasts, spends her money on Shakespeare videos, writes copious amounts of fanfiction.... and has not written a single formal essay this year, because all her "formal" energy is taken up with physics and French.

 

I am grateful to read from people who do out-of-the-box things, because it encourages me to do the same.

[Gwen in VA]

Doodler,

 

I couldn't agree more that education does NOT equal rigid academics.

 

And I love your examples.

 

I think we totally agree that a 'well-educated" person can get that way through any number of ways, and strict academics is only one way. I'm glad that this board encourages out of the box thinking!

[TippyCanoe]

nm

Edited November 21, 2012 by Doodler

[regentrude]

What your dd is doing sounds absolutely fantastic! Dd's favorite Shakespeare play is Twelfth Night (she favors comedies in general), but right after that is Hamlet. Your dd might be interested in the chapter on Hamlet in this excellent book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Shakespeare-After-All-Marjorie-Garber/dp/0385722141/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352762564&sr=8-1&keywords=marjorie+garber

 

Has she listened to the BBC podcasts on objects from Shakespeare's times?

 

ETA: And has she seen this:

http://www.amazon.com/Discovering-Hamlet-Kenneth-Branagh/dp/B004AV5GXG/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1352764305&sr=8-15&keywords=hamlet+DVD

 

Thanks for the links. I do not have Garber's book, but I know that her lecture series with the same title is available online (in case anybody else is interested):

http://www.extension.harvard.edu/open-learning-initiative/shakespeare-after-all-later-plays

 

She has listened to some of the podcasts from the Shakespeare's restless World series

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/r4shakespeare

(and watched a few of the videos on the objects). Fantastic resources!

 

Right now she is indulging her love of all things related to Byron and Shelley and reads Byron's biography. I told her that "counts".

Edited November 13, 2012 by regentrude

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[regentrude]

I don't like their poetry much, but I'm fascinated by their personal lives. More resources (although she probably has more than sufficient):

 

http://www.amazon.com/Footsteps-Adventures-Biographer-Richard-Holmes/dp/0679770046/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352766195&sr=8-1&keywords=footsteps+richard+holmes

http://www.amazon.com/Young-Romantics-Tangled-Greatest-Generation/dp/B005M4BVOI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1352766252&sr=8-3&keywords=romantic+poets+history

http://www.amazon.com/Age-Wonder-Romantic-Generation-Discovery/dp/1400031877/ref=la_B001IXTR2K_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352766283&sr=1-1

 

Thanks for the links! I already bought her the Young Romantics book.

She, too, is more fascinated by their lives than by their writing... very colorful personalities. I love it when she shares Byron anecdotes with me.

[LindaOz]

Thanks for your replies everyone. It seems that there are a variety of ways to approach developing a specialty :001_smile: .

 

At first I thought that I had not really allowed room for this in my two highschoolers' schedules. But, on further thought, I think we have (and are working on it) to an extent.

 

My 10th grader loves to write, and so she has her own writing time scheduled in 3x a week where she works on the novel she is writing. She also has a goal to be a missionary teacher in Kenya so she will be learning Swahili as soon as the material arrives - something which is infinitely more important to her than continuing art which she doesn't like.

 

My 11th grader has been saying how much she wants to learn some languages like Greek and Hebrew. She also wants to do some sort of dressmaking course (sewing/dressmaking is NOT my forte :tongue_smilie: ) so I think it is time to make sure that she has those opportunities and to make them part of her day.

 

I'm just thinking 'out loud' here, but I'm keen to start looking for these areas of specialty in my kids so that we can give them opportunity to grow - without sacrificing other essential academic subjects.

 

Hmm...thinking....thinking.... :001_unsure:

[Nan in Mass]

Has she read Shakespeare in the Bush (an article)? I posted a link to that recently and she might enjoy it.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I encouraged mine to specialize and I modified the rest of their education to make room for that, but I did it cautiously, making sure that they covered more or less the same core as other students. I substituted natural history for biology, for example, but I would probably not have substituted geology for biology, since an understanding of how life works is one of the things on my list of educational goals. Some things were covered in a non-textbook-y way, but except for phys ed, anything listed on the academic transcript had to have an academic component (involve reading and/or writing). Because we wanted our sons to be able to join back into the standard educational stream at some point (college), I kept a close eye on minimum college requirements and because in our state, we need our plan approved every year, I kept a close eye on the minimum requirements for our local high school. I found that if I made a daily schedule of time slots and concentrated on necessary skills and left the choice of content and how it was aquired mostly up to my children, it gave us a framework for making decisions about what we were actually going to do from day to day and the confidence to do something more out-of-the-box. Some things, like finishing a math book every year, were non-negotiable for my particular family. My public schooled oldest, left to his own devices, would not have taken a math senior year, since he didn't want to take calculus. The guidance counselor wouldn't let him not take a math, saying that if he ever wanted to go to college (he didn't right then), it would be necessary, and signed him up for statistics, which he slept through getting easy As. We were very grateful when a few years after graduation, he decided to go to engineering school. After that experience, we decided the other children had to have 4 years of math, science, English, and social studies, and 2 (preferably 4) of foreign language, just in case. Not necessarily a textbook a year each (except math) but something that can be translated to a year's worth of credit. Within that framework and on top of it, they definately specialized. We planned by thinking about what sort of specialized adult we wanted and worked backwards, thinking about how people like that were formed. We asked people how they became who they are. That worked extremely well.

 

Nan

[Jenny in Florida]

This year we saw The Diviners.

 

Is that the Jim Leonard one about the town experiencing a drought? My daughter was in a production of that last winter, and we're still discussing it.

 

I'm actually struggling with the whole "specializing" thing this week, too.

 

As I've shared quite a bit over the years, my son and I have never really hit our stride with homeschooling high school. We've tried everything from a highly structured, rigorous, Mom-led approach to a looser, almost unschooled routine. He's done online courses and "just read" and followed syllabi. I've tried handing over responsibility to him and babysitting his every move. None of it has worked, and we end up right back where we started.

 

He's danced and sung and done theatre for most of his life. He spent a few years at the pre-professional ballet school before deciding ballet wasn't for him. In the last two and a half years, he's tried a couple of different, smaller studios and has found a place where he's happy. He even returned to ballet this year, taking two classes a week and discovering he likes it a whole lot more than he remembered.

 

He would love to specialize in dance. He tells me that "any day at the dance studio is a good day." The problem we're having is that we simply cannot afford to financially support a full slate of multiple classes. He has a formal scholarship for one of his regular classes, and the studio is essentially giving him another one for free. But we can't ask them to do more than that. At the moment, he's rehearsing for their holiday production, giving him another hour weekly. But that will end in December. Spring is competition season, but he's on the team for just one dance, meaning it won't be a huge committment of time.

 

We've even begun looking at the pre-pro school again, because they offer a program that has trainees on site all day Monday through Friday, using K12 in between dance classes and rehearsals. The tuition is more than we could absorb, but with him accounted for all day, I might be able to get a part-time job to cover the cost. This would require him to leave his current dance school, however, and he hates that idea.

 

We're considering floating the idea with the current school that he might do some kind of internship -- working at the studio, assisting with little kid classes, cleaning, helping with events, etc. -- in exchange for classes. If he does that, I have to figure out where we go academically. For a kid who cares, I know it would be possible to manage both a full academic load and daily outside work, but I don't think he's there.

 

Sorry, rambling.

 

Anyway, in general, my sense is that we cannot force passion or specialization. But I think there's nothing wrong with making room for it for a student who craves that kind of training.

[regentrude]

Another thought about specialization that i forgot to include in my earlier post:

if I have a student who is planning to go into a certain field, this is actually a good reason to do a lot of work in the other fields.

If my student is clearly heading towards a STEM major, high school may be the last time he gets to study history and literature in depth, so I want to make this count. In contrast, as long as he is prepared for college level science, I don't have to go overboard with advanced science courses because he will take them anyway in college.

OTOH, if my student is humanities oriented, she will not be required to take rigorous science in college - so what I do in high school sciences will be her only science education.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[Nan in Mass]

Regentrude, that is an important point. I have ones going into technical fields. They have precious little room to study, for example, a foreign language. I (and they) would have loved to go more heavily on the STEM courses during high school, but they will do that in college. This is their only opportunity to go broad. It is a balancing act - preparing them properly for their specialization AND giving them the breadth that there is room for only now. Ãt is a very uncomfortable fit. Mine had to work very hard. The same applies to students who aren't going to college, who will have plenty of time to specialize and self-educate in their specialty after high school. Again, it is a difficult balance because you need to do some of the specialty in high school never-the-less.

 

Nan

[regentrude]

On the other hand, I look at dh and a couple of his colleagues who specialized in the British system from age 15, and they are adult scientists who read widely in history and literature, see theater, go to concerts, and in general pursue a well-rounded intellectual life.

 

This is what I see in my friends and coworkers as well, and that's how I operate- but I don't think it has anything to do with school. I know that for me, this is how I was brought up by my parents: going to museums, theatres, concerts were things one just did for enjoyment. I saw my parents do these things, they exposed me, now we are taking our children (and I went to great lengths to make these events "normal" when they were younger). This is actually extremely important, perhaps even more than any formal textbook education we do at home, because it instills the habits of a lifelong learner and opens the mind to these wonderful experiences.

 

I have seen a lot of people who feel freed by the fact that they are not required to take formal classes, who go on to follow up other subjects and areas than their primary interest or major. Do they "study seriously"? Perhaps not, in the sense that these adults are not planning out syllabi to follow, taking notes, outlining, or writing essays. But they read with focus, discuss their thinking, go to museums, and cultivate the habits of a broad intellectual life.

 

No one knows as well as you do that education does not have to mean formal textbook class work :)

I was not necessarily referring to highly structured formal classes with my comment - but I still believe that I need to build the foundation especially in the subjects my kids will not study at the university level. Whether this has to happen in the form of textbooks, or by going and watching plays at the theatre, will depend on kid, subject, and circumstances.

[FairProspects]

I'm wondering also if the perception or importance of developing a specialty depends on the learner.

 

My older ds is a specialist - he just is. He is spectacular at some areas, and struggles terribly with others. He is very young, and things will undoubtedly change, but I think it is somewhat unrealistic given his strengths and weaknesses to expect him to be a highly accomplished generalist. Given his make-up, it makes sense to let him pursue extreme proficiency in his specialty and get to a competent level of study in other areas, but not more. He is unlikely to do more than 2 years of foreign language, for example. For him I don't see that as a failing, rather a choice to use his time pursuing the areas in which he really excels over areas where further struggling is not likely to produce a better outcome.

 

My younger has a much better chance of being an overall strong generalist and I think that is equally laudable, but for both the best course of study depends on the learner and their individual strengths and weaknesses rather than having an ideology that of set accomplishments I hope for them to achieve.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[Sisyphus]

I'm wondering also if the perception or importance of developing a specialty depends on the learner.

 

My older ds is a specialist - he just is. He is spectacular at some areas, and struggles terribly with others. He is very young, and things will undoubtedly change, but I think it is somewhat unrealistic given his strengths and weaknesses to expect him to be a highly accomplished generalist. Given his make-up, it makes sense to let him pursue extreme proficiency in his specialty and get to a competent level of study in other areas, but not more. He is unlikely to do more than 2 years of foreign language, for example. For him I don't see that as a failing, rather a choice to use his time pursuing the areas in which he really excels over areas where further struggling is not likely to produce a better outcome.

 

This is my philosophy, too. Why struggle with more years of subjects I know (and more importantly, he knows) he is uninterested in and will never be more than proficient in? Better to check the blocks for high school in those subjects and free up more time to purue the things he can (with much work, he has challenges) succeed at and more importantly is really drawn to.

 

We are just starting high school though, so like I said- I'll let you know in 3 1/2 years how it worked out!

[LindaOz]

I'm wondering also if the perception or importance of developing a specialty depends on the learner.

 

My older ds is a specialist - he just is. He is spectacular at some areas, and struggles terribly with others. He is very young, and things will undoubtedly change, but I think it is somewhat unrealistic given his strengths and weaknesses to expect him to be a highly accomplished generalist. Given his make-up, it makes sense to let him pursue extreme proficiency in his specialty and get to a competent level of study in other areas, but not more. He is unlikely to do more than 2 years of foreign language, for example. For him I don't see that as a failing, rather a choice to use his time pursuing the areas in which he really excels over areas where further struggling is not likely to produce a better outcome.

 

My younger has a much better chance of being an overall strong generalist and I think that is equally laudable, but for both the best course of study depends on the learner and their individual strengths and weaknesses rather than having an ideology that of set accomplishments I hope for them to achieve.

 

Yes, good point. I guess some will show an area of strong interest earlier than others too. It may or may not occur during schooling years. A strong general education, I suppose, will give students opportunity to come into contact with a variety of skills and interests which may later lead to a special interest. Like you say, it could vary from student to student.